Zero Suit Matchup Rediscussion - First Target: Snake

[Zero]

Introduction

It has generally been concluded that Ørion's thread and Snakeee's thread should be combined into a more comprehensive and complete guide. This will also give us a chance to go over any information that is outdated or lacking and fill in the gaps.​

Re-introduction

Much time has passed since the release of Brawl to the complete Smashboards community, and much of the initial matchup discussion has been completed in many of the character boards. Due to the unusually small number of contributors to our board, our matchup discussions often linger and stagnate for many weeks, and as a consequence, we have only completed 12 complete discussions.

This thread's purpose is to begin rediscussing the matchups which were completed many months ago, but whose information has become outdated due to developments in the metagame. The list of characters which we will discuss in this thread are:​

​

Before we start a discussion, I would like to ask the board on who we should rediscuss first. I'm thinking Snake, as many of the new facets of our metagame affect this matchup to even.

After all discussion has been concluded, the information will be compiled into one matchup thread.​

Current Discussion: Snake

Kojima's grizzly beast has proven to be tough competition for petite Samus, but has Samus' training and discovery of new techniques make up for her incredible lightness?​

Ratio Chart:

Large Advantage (70+):

Advantage (60-65):

Even (45-55):

Disadvantage (35-40):

Large Disadvantage (30-):

Format:

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

Final Verdict:​

Matchup Advice:

• Exploiting Strengths:
  
  
  
• Minimizing Weaknesses:
  
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  
  
  
• Approach Alterations:
  
  
  
• In the Air:
  
  
  
• Attacks to Look for:
  • xxxx
    Description:
    How to Counter/Avoid:
    DI: 0°
    SDI: 0°
  
  
• How to Edgeguard:
  
  
  
• How to Recover:
  
  
  
• Special Information:
  
  
  
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
• Stages to Avoid:

<character> Contributors:

xxxx​

<character>'s Thread​

 

[Tien2500]

Didn't we do the Icees, Diddy, and Pika not too long ago?

Anyways I think MK is a always a good idea as he is the most common character in high level play. Snake is worth discussing too, but most ZSS' seem to have a decent handle on this match already.

And also I think we can handle more than one matchup at a time. Maybe one new and one rediscussion per week?

 

[Zero]

We did do IC, Diddy and Pika recently, however the idea is that once we've done everyone else, our metagame should have changed enough to warrant a rediscussion .

Personally I want to get 4 matchups done per week, which warrants the other two threads I have created.

 

[ThreeSided]

I'm thinking we should go by which one has the most outdated discussion. I don't know much about all thsoe discussions, but I do know that a lot has changed in the snake match up, what with us becoming combo oriented and using the chaingrab and such.

 

[noradseven]

Hmm lets discuss marth again :D, jk please don't.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I vote that we re-discuss Mr. Game and Watch.

 

[Yankee]

I say snake or mk, seeing how they were the first we discussed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Probably should do MK.

 

[Zero]

Why bother? MK boards will be deleted soon.

Spoiler

10princeoffireCRASHICsusamodelfromparis

 

[noradseven]

Why bother? MK boards will be deleted soon.

Spoiler

10princeoffireCRASHICsusamodelfromparis

I really wish smash players played TvC, because karas is like MK but 1million times gayer.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I really wish smash players played TvC, because karas is like MK but 1million times gayer.

It's silly to compare Smash to traditional fighting games, they aren't even remotely the same. "They don't ban Karas!" He might be overpowered but it isn't even the same kind of game and Smash as a community isn't cool enough to soft ban characters.

BTW, my sister's name is Karas (said like Paris with a K).

 

[Zero]

That's an awesome name.

...

I'm going to grab the Snake boards over here so we can kickstart this thing. But after school. So I'll grab the old info and we can start the discussion from there.

SNAKE

Strengths:

• Better aerial game due to speed and mobility
• Can cover/counter all of Snake's recovery options

Weaknesses:

• Snake's great punish game will exaggerate any mistakes
• ZSS's light weight and Snake's heavy weight result in a large gap in survivability
• Snake's stage control will make it difficult for you to approach and return to the stage from the ledge

Final Verdict: ~45:55​

Matchup Advice:

• Exploiting Strengths:
  
  Better aerial game...: Aerial superiority is not unfamiliar to ZSS. However, against Snake it is pure dominance. Getting Snake into the air should be your primary goal. Since most of ZSS's attacks already focus on getting opponents into the air, there isn't much you have to worry about here, just remember to stick with tilts and throws that place your opponent above you. Read the "In the Air" section to know what to do when you've got him there!
  
  ...counter all of Snake's recovery...: ZSS has great options to stop Snake's recovery. Placing Snake off of the stage should result in a huge amount of damage every time. In order to force him into recovery situations, try to finish your aerial combos with a B-Air or F-Air. As for the ground, Dash Attacks and F-Throws should work pretty well if you're close to the edge. Remember to study the "Edgeguarding" section in order to properly rack up that damage once he's out there.
  
  
• Minimizing Weaknesses:
  
  Snake's great punish game...: Since Snake can cause amazing damage off of super fast tilts, it's best to avoid any situation where you are even moderately lagged directly beside him. This means avoid doing moves like U-Tilt, Third Jab, or F-Tilt directly onto his shield. Also, missing grabs can be severely punished, so make sure to predict the spot dodges or rolls and avoid bad situations. Side-B should also be used with extreme caution, since it will have considerable ending lag if Snake is able to bypass the sweetspot.
  
  ...gap in survivability: The best way to minimize a gap in survivability is to get good gimp kills and to practice DIing Snake's kill moves. Make sure to read up on the "Suitpiece" and "Edgeguarding" sections for gimp kills and the "Attacks to Look For" section on how to DI. Also, with Snake, it's important to remember that you want to avoid trading of hits. 10% damage to you is much more significant than 10% to him. This means you must be especially careful when Snake has a grenade in his hand, know the explosion distance!
  
  Snake's stage control...: The most important thing about Snake's stage control is to be confident in your ability to deal with it. The more panicked you are, the better Snake's stage control will seem, since you're playing their game! Make sure to read up on the Grenade, C4, Claymore (D-Smash), and Mortar (U-Smash) in the "Attacks to Look For" section. The key to regaining stage control is understanding what you are up against!
  
  
• Suitpiece Strategy:
  
  Under Construction
  
  
• Approach Alterations:
  
  Under Construction
  
  
• In the Air:
  
  His only viable aerial defense is using his B-Air. To nullify the threat, make sure to attack from the front or below. Remember to watch for pivoted grenades and C4 (to change his momentum and mix-up his landing). Also remember that Snake has poor horizontal aerial control, so after a Snake performs a double jump, he is vulnerable to landing grabs.
  
  
• Attacks to Look for:
  • xxxx
    Description:
    How to Counter/Avoid:
    DI: 0°
    SDI: 0°
  
  
• How to Edgeguard:
  
  It is extremely important that you chase as soon as possible. Most Snakes will recover high, so Up-B boost a RAR'd jump and try to B-Air him at the top of the stage. If you feel like you can Flipspike instead, feel free to do that as well. However, realize that if they are high on the screen when you spike them, they have plenty of time to cancel it and recover anyways.
  
  If they're recovering low but slightly away from the ledge, try to go for a well timed dashgrab to pull them out of the Cypher, this is rare, but one grab can change the tide of the match. If he's anywhere above ~80%, after the air release run off with him and side-b him, it's guaranteed to hit before he can C4, and since he's holding down to pop the C4, he'll DI straight into the wall. If he's at low percent, he's still going to have to recover from below the stage, try to predict his C4 and punish with a B-Air or Flipspike.
  
  
• How to Recover:
  
  You shouldn't have much of a problem tethering the edge and returning. If the Snake tries to grab the ledge to hog, he just gave up his advantage by letting you footstool/jump back onto the stage as normal. However, if he camps just above the ledge he will most likely set-up mortars, C4s, and Claymores to prevent your return. Approach with care, a ledgeattack will most likely be punished with a grab or F-Tilt. Rolling will result in the same. Ledgehopped attacks could potentially leave you open for mortars and also F-Tilts. Ledgejumping could force you into the mortars. Try to find a safe time to ledgejump and down-b past Snake, there is a chance you'll get hit out of this as well, but it would most likely hit you back into the stage, and into safety. Remember, patience is key here. Only attempt to get back on stage when you're ready! Flipjump stall if you need the invincibility in the meantime.
  
  
• Special Information:
  
  Under Construction
  
  
  

Counterpick Advice:

• Stages to Counter-pick:
  • Rainbow Cruise - Probably the worst Snake stage possible. He gets forced into the air and he can't control the stage. Beware of the Ship portion of the stage, since Snake can control the ship rather well.
  • Norfair - The lava can force Snake into the air and the awkwardness of the stage doesn't allow for great stage control.
  • Jungle Japes - Super high ceiling and lengthy stage. You cut the gap in survivability significantly and lower his ability to stage control. Be wary of a Snake getting the lead and camping a side platform (which disables your side-b). Japes should be considered a double-edged sword.
  • Brinstar - Same as Norfair, lava can force him into the air. However, this stage's small size can allow Snake to stage control pretty well. Also, the top platform brings you dangerously close to the ceiling. This should also be considered a double-edged sword.
• Stages to Avoid:
  • Easily controlled stages (Frigate Orpheon, Battlefield, etc.)
  • Low Ceiling stages (Corneria, Halberd, etc.)

Snake Contributors:

cycon365
bludhoundz
JesiahTEG
Ran Iji
Thanks guys!​

Snake's Thread​

Old Information:

 

[sasook]

But didn't we recently discuss Snake? Like.....really recently?

 

[Zero]

No, Snake was the first matchup in the matchup thread. It's apparent in the matchup summary because it doesn't have any of the recent discoveries and applications like dashlock and the chaingrab.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh, sweet, maybe I can finally fix the misconception that some of you have that we win that matchup.

 

[Zero]

I wish you luck, everyone here is mesmerised by our many locks, chaingrabs and other gay stuff we can do to Snake.

 

[fkacyan]

I wish you luck, everyone here is mesmerised by our many locks, chaingrabs and other gay stuff we can do to Snake.

None of which I have seen anybody pull off consistently in a match! But I'll save the real data for when I'm not watching anime and have time to devote to this, probably some time tomorrow.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

None of which I have seen anybody pull off consistently in a match! But I'll save the real data for when I'm not watching anime and have time to devote to this, probably some time tomorrow.

From what I've seen in the other thread you haven't really been paying attention to the game and your knowledge on the subject is several months old. I'll be sure to not care about whatever it is that you post.

 

[Zero]

No one tries it in a real match because, well, it's being addressed in our GN as "not playing gay enough". We're working on it. The point of this matchup discussion is half to make half of the options we have made available to the public in an area where people looking for it, will find it, rather than in an obscure thread deep within the board.

We're working on it.

 

[fkacyan]

From what I've seen in the other thread you haven't really been paying attention to the game and your knowledge on the subject is several months old. I'll be sure to not care about whatever it is that you post.

The Snake matchup thread linked me to a page that was over a month old; the information here is months old; all I have to go by is my own knowledge, which contradicts us winning the matchup.

I also have no idea who the hell you are. All I know is that you post a lot with the swagger of somebody with experience and knowledge, but I've seen nothing to prove this to me. It looks like both of us are one awful footing with eachother right now - Huzzah!

No one tries it in a real match because, well, it's being addressed in our GN as "not playing gay enough". We're working on it. The point of this matchup discussion is half to make half of the options we have made available to the public in an area where people looking for it, will find it, rather than in an obscure thread deep within the board.

We're working on it.

A lot of what you're talking about is highly situational, not as easy as one would think to set up, and not as easy as you'd think to land. It's kinda like how we can chain Wolf in downsmash for 90-100% (Depending on what follows up the last dsmash at 86) - How often do you land it, and is what you take trying to land it worth the end result?

But, like I said, more after some thorough, specific playtesting and research on who might know enough to really speak on this effectively. It would help if the Snake a few blocks from me hadn't left for Cali an hour ago. Argh.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snake is pretty easy to grab though. You get a free grab on him if you powershield a tilt, heh.

 

[fkacyan]

Snake is pretty easy to grab though. You get a free grab on him if you powershield a tilt, heh.

None of the Snakes I know are in tilt range unless they have a nade or something preventing me from doing stuff out of a throw. =/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

None of the Snakes I know are in tilt range unless they have a nade or something preventing me from doing stuff out of a throw. =/

Snake shouldn't be camping you. ZSS has no problem approaching Snake.

 

[fkacyan]

Snake shouldn't be camping you. ZSS has no problem approaching Snake.

Ah, but I disagree, and this will be an element of my post, when I have the time and ability to make it. =)

Of course, not everybody plays with Spam and Orion* on a regular basis, and they are two of the campiest players in the community.

 

[Zero]

It is truly not hard to set up a grab against Snake. Especially with our tools to put him in the air, and once he uses a jump, it's a matter of timing your grab on landing. Other contributing factors involve our ability to gimp him very badly, albiet with a little prediction and timing, which can't really stand in this matchup discussion, and various low percentages locks, ranging from 0% to about 20%. Although they are situational, it is not at all uncommon, and fthrow to dsmash is a very effective setup which can result in a 54% combo.

I'm trying to finish the IC and Sonic writeups, so I'll save more of this for the actual discussion with real Snake mains.

 

[noradseven]

Snake shouldn't be camping you. ZSS has no problem approaching Snake.

Look at how wrong u are, the nades arn't the problem sfp, its dash attack and tilts, the nades are just there to add to the confusion.

But seriously camping with nades doesn't work on ZSS, I will warn you of that but you can still totally camp ZSS.

 

[fkacyan]

Look at how wrong u are, the nades arn't the problem sfp, its dash attack and tilts, the nades are just there to add to the confusion.

But seriously camping with nades doesn't work on ZSS, I will warn you of that but you can still totally camp ZSS.

Snake isn't a camper in the same sense as Falco is when played properly; instead, he zones the hell outta you.

 

[sasook]

No, Snake was the first matchup in the matchup thread. It's apparent in the matchup summary because it doesn't have any of the recent discoveries and applications like dashlock and the chaingrab.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418&highlight=snake&page=57

Recent Snake discussion right there.

 

[Zero]

That looks more like a Snake vs. ZSS QA thread, and since it didn't result in any changes to the matchup summary, which is the main point of these three new threads, I will still carry it out. Although it should not take long.

No harm in doing Snake again anyway

 

[sasook]

Yeah I know the summary didn't change, I was just pointing out that we did recently discuss him (somewhat) and it hasn't been like a year since we talked about him lol.

Feel free to use the info in that link if you do so wish. =)