Zero Breaks Down Competitive Stages In Smash 4

[Kink-Link5]

Something's goofy in the stage list when Town and City is a starter, Delfino is legal, and Kongo is banned.

 

[Glyphagos]

pretty much

 

[MarioMeteor]

No items, Diddy only, Smashville.
Somebody had to do it.

 

[Overswarm]

'Neutral Stages' and 'Starter Stages' are terms that have been used at different times but mean the same thing. I'm old school, so I use neutral.

Don't be a scrub, this is patently false. You also aren't "old school". You are very much new school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_LUdkfkY

 

[erico9001]

I meant the reply at that part specifically.

Hmm... well, I think I get what you mean in that case then. It's good that you at least made sure to let people know you weren't fully sure? That's true. That lowers the amount of people that are going to think Duck Hunt has thinner horizontal boundaries. However, my point is there will still be a lot of people thinking that, because they trust your feeling on it. Some quick research into blast zones could have prevented that. Also, I think some Little Mac players or Link players may have been scratching their heads a little bit when you were saying they wouldn't do well on those specific stages.

Well, besides that, I did learn a few things. Your video helped me realize just the extent to which Falcon, ZSS, Mario, etc like platform stages – particularly Battlefield. I knew they liked it, but autocancelling onto the platforms?! Oh, and I had no idea about Delfino's ceiling .

Oh, and have you been using Shulk lately? (off topic I guess, but I'm just curious)

 

[Murlough]

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YES! I can finally afford ZeRo lessons!

 

[StabbityJoe]

Omega version every day.

 

[JagoTheTiger]

An good way to practice and get better at smash.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I still can't understand how this game has so much good stages and For Glory only has Omega stages! I get that those have no platforms to simulate a "traditional" fighting scenario and japanese competitive Melee (at least from the old days), but FD is not such a "balanced" stage and many characters have advantages that could be "counterpicked" with other stages. This sounds like a rant, but, seriously, Battlefield (other stages maybe, but at least Battlefield) should be in FG!

 

[Metalbro]

that MK got rekt by lylat

 

[Godzillionaire]

Don't be a scrub, this is patently false. You also aren't "old school". You are very much new school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH_LUdkfkY

YES! I can finally afford ZeRo lessons!

 

[TheMarthRunner]

I've been curious about Zero and I'm not exactly sure if this is the correct place to ask, but has anyone here taken him up on the smash lessons he offers? I know he says to email him about any questions but I want to hear from y'all who did it with him. Does he like send you some tips via email or do a couple matches with him or what? Just curious

Yeah I emailed a month or two ago and never got a response... Im thinking it would just be better (For my time and my wallet) to try and find some other Sm4sh tutor

 

[Newt Floss]

I've been curious about Zero and I'm not exactly sure if this is the correct place to ask, but has anyone here taken him up on the smash lessons he offers?

He offers lessons but never responds to emails so don't even bother. I'm sure he's full of excuses but trying to set anything up would just be a waste time. All inquiries will go unanswered.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

He offers lessons but never responds to emails so don't even bother. I'm sure he's full of excuses but trying to set anything up would just be a waste time. All inquiries will go unanswered.

Not to mention, this guy thinks T&C is bad. If you live anywhere but the Northeast, you probably have worse stages than T&C.

Wait, what if ZeRo is secretly attempting to sabotage future good players so he can win all the Apex money forever!

Z is made of two triangles. Two is one less than three. Zero is one man, 1+2 is three. Triangles have three sides. Zero is illuminati

 

[TheHypnotoad]

ZeRo needs to stop passing his personal opinions off as facts. There is a large difference between "I hate Town and City/Delfino" and "Town and City/Delfino are bad stages", and he was mostly using the latter. And it's a shame, because people will blindly take everything he says as true because he's a good player. Not to mention he spouts complete b.s. like "Smashville is the most balanced stage", when it heavily favors top tiers like Diddy Kong, Sheik, Ness, and Sonic.

I find it ironic that Smash 4 has a larger legal stagelist than Melee, and yet we choose to play on fewer stages (in fact, we choose to only play on one: Smashville).

 

[Pajon]

For Little Mac, it's a given that the opponent is going to strike FD. It's just going to happen. So, he needs to pick out of what's left. That happens to be Town and City. Camping out could probably be done there, but it should not be enough to allow time stalling. The section only lasts somewhere between 33-34s (the very first part lasts 28 seconds, though), so any time stalling would be somewhat brief. Just for reference, the other part of the stage with platforms lasts the same amount of time, and the flat, transition period lasts somewhere between 16-17 seconds.

Little Macs should choose to go to Lylat before Town and City.
Very underrated stage for him

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

Neutral stages! Neutral stages? Neutral... Stages?

NO

There are starter stages and Counterpick stages. No neutral stages, because every match won't be neutral on say Smashville or something. It's a very misleading term

They were called neutral stages first.

 

[Mypantisgone]

Orbital Gate Assault for tournament legal stage.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

@ChileZeRo Get yourself a pop filter for your mic, or in a pinch you could just put a sock over it - it makes a world of difference for your audio quality

One thing I will say though about Delfino - I like picking this stage not because of "jank," but because I'm betting on myself being better at adapting to a dynamic environment than my opponent. I didn't know about all the ways you can abuse the stage like the suddenly low ceilings though.

Halberd's still my favorite pick though and it's totally for jank, not gonna lie. Love baiting into the stage traps, and the low ceiling is great for Yoshi.

 

[EndlessRain]

@ChileZeRo Get yourself a pop filter for your mic, or in a pinch you could just put a sock over it - it makes a world of difference for your audio quality

One thing I will say though about Delfino - I like picking this stage not because of "jank," but because I'm betting on myself being better at adapting to a dynamic environment than my opponent. I didn't know about all the ways you can abuse the stage like the suddenly low ceilings though.

Halberd's still my favorite pick though and it's totally for jank, not gonna lie. Love baiting into the stage traps, and the low ceiling is great for Yoshi.

I literally only pick Delfino because I know that if I need to, I can get some stupid-early kills off the top during the transitions, so even if the other guy is better than me I can possibly win. In other words, I abuse the jankiness of the stage to close the skill gap. That being possible is really, really dumb and while I'm kinda sad that it's banned here in Ireland I 100% get why.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I literally only pick Delfino because I know that if I need to, I can get some stupid-early kills off the top during the transitions, so even if the other guy is better than me I can possibly win. In other words, I abuse the jankiness of the stage to close the skill gap. That being possible is really, really dumb and while I'm kinda sad that it's banned here in Ireland I 100% get why.

If you constantly kill someone at low percents using stage knowledge, that's not jank. That's just being good

 

[EndlessRain]

If I have a stock taken because my opponent outplays me for 2-3 minutes, then I take one of his and draw even again just because I outplay him once for a few seconds, due to the fact that the blast zones were tiny while I was on top, then the stage is janky.

 

[Overswarm]

If I have a stock taken because my opponent outplays me for 2-3 minutes, then I take one of his and draw even again just because I outplay him once for a few seconds, due to the fact that the blast zones were tiny while I was on top, then the stage is janky.

Sounds more like stage control to me. Don't stand by the ledge when they can hit you with an f-smash, don't stand near the ceiling when they can kill you with an up-smash.

 

[Infinite901]

As good as Zero is he constantly says stupid **** like this.

 

[EndlessRain]

Sounds more like stage control to me. Don't stand by the ledge when they can hit you with an f-smash, don't stand near the ceiling when they can kill you with an up-smash.

Indeed. But in the first situation, they need you to have taken quite a bit more damage. That is to say, they need to outplay you quite a bit. Whereas if you are near Delfino's ceiling at its lowest, you only need to be outplayed once.
If you make a mistake and wind up on the ledge at 30% and you eat an fsmash, you are in a bad position, but unless they continue to play better than you, you can return to safety. They need to make several good plays for it to be a kill (either before fsmashing so that it kills or afterwards so that you cannot recover).
If you make one mistake and wind up on Delfino near the ceiling at 30% and you eat a uair from Fox, you are dead. They need one good play for it to be a kill.
If my opponent can makes ten good plays and kill me, then one bad one and die (with the stage's changes being the only reason for the imbalance) I don't think the stage should be legal. The reward offered is disproportional to the effort required to reap it depending on the time it is reaped. This argument basically boils down to whether or not you think that is permissible in a legal stage. I don't think it should be, though I can see why many would have no problem with it. I think that on paper, such a thing is fine, but in practice, the sheer degree to which it increases the value of that single play makes it unfit for competitive play.
"Killing early through picking your moment" is fine, probably even good to avoid positive bias, but killing at 30% with two uairs because your opponent whiffed one attack is another, particularly if you are at kill percent and have landed only 2-3 attacks in the entire match.

P.S. Love your work man.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

If I have a stock taken because my opponent outplays me for 2-3 minutes, then I take one of his and draw even again just because I outplay him once for a few seconds, due to the fact that the blast zones were tiny while I was on top, then the stage is janky.

I have to disagree, as this isn't always true. I have several replays where, after doing something dumb and losing a stock to getting trapped under the stage or something (not on Delfino, just in general), I've come back and miraculously got a kill at something stupid low like low-twenties percent. Taking advantage of your opponent's overconfidence is a valid tactic, and if you manage to catch them in an unfavorable position due to their haste, you totally deserve that kill.

 

[MonkeyArms]

"Delfino is a bunch of bullcrap"
Totally explains why skyloft and castle siege are usually allowed.

 

[Manta]

He offers lessons but never responds to emails so don't even bother. I'm sure he's full of excuses but trying to set anything up would just be a waste time. All inquiries will go unanswered.

he responded to mine after like a week or two, email him, give it some time, then he'll eventually respond.

 

[L1GHT]

smashbille

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

so, no Duck Hunt stage?

 

[JSG]

I'm so glad Lylat Cruise's ledges were fixed in the recent patch. I love playing that stage as R.O.B. but I sometimes get trapped under there. I hope we can see more of that stage in tourneys in the future, now that people won't have to be afraid of it anymore.

Great video ZeRo!

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I'm so glad Lylat Cruise's ledges were fixed in the recent patch. I love playing that stage as R.O.B. but I sometimes get trapped under there. I hope we can see more of that stage in tourneys in the future, now that people won't have to be afraid of it anymore.

Great video ZeRo!

Agreed, R.O.B. is pretty much the only character I enjoy using on that stage. Wonder if they fixed his weird laser glitches that the tilt would sometimes cause?

Spoiler

 

[tsulz]

anyone know if theres a place where they have the dimensions of the stages (or atleast the most used ones)? I feeel like it would help knowing approximate distances from platforms to certain blastzones.

 

[Spak]

anyone know if theres a place where they have the dimensions of the stages (or atleast the most used ones)? I feeel like it would help knowing approximate distances from platforms to certain blastzones.

I don't think there's anything like that, but it could probably be structured like the stage portion of this thread with the box dimensions added.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/

 

[90007000]

Wait, whers the Castle Siege?

 

[Kink-Link5]

If I have a stock taken because my opponent outplays me for 2-3 minutes, then I take one of his and draw even again just because I outplay him once for a few seconds, due to the fact that the blast zones were tiny while I was on top, then the stage is janky.

Ban Rage.

 

[Infinite901]

A couple things:
-Almost everything he said about Town and City is wrong. The only thing "random" about it is the balloons.
-I don't like Delfino Plaza, but not for the blastlines. Some of the transformations just seem a bit too out there. But that's more of a personal thing. The blastlines need tweaking but don't qualify a ban.
-Smashville cannot objectively be called "the most fair" stage. Now, it may actually be true that, out of all the matchups, it's the most fair for the most matchups, BUT with over 2500 matchups, there are still hundreds of MU's that are much more neutral on a different stage, making Smashville less fair.