Zenith 2014 Preliminary Details

[Shears]

Are bracket pools not the same as if you had one big bracket with different waves except now that players are trapped in pools they're more likely to play the same person more than once?

I don't really know a lot about this topic, so feel free to prove me wrong. But as it stands, I don't see the logic in bracket pools.

Why do I feel like this has been argued about before...

Bracket pools are effectively one big bracket but because the losers brackets are compartmentalized to the bracket pool, the completion of a section of the bracket and its losers bracket can be done independent of the other sections. It doesn't make a big difference it just makes bracket organization and completion a little easier on the TOs and allows for simpler scheduling. In addition, yes the losers brackets will have rematches earlier than in a big bracket and thats where the pool feeling comes from. The rematches tend to happen near the end of the bracket anyway so it doesn't make the biggest difference in the tournaments final standings, unless of course the brackets are seeded very poorly (see Apex 2014).

 

[Cobrevolution]

i wouldn't mind bracket pools AS MUCH if they treated each pool like an actual bracket instead of pieces of one large one, with bo5 sets for ws, wf, lq, ls, and lf. it's also probably a helluva lot easier to seed RR pools, as evidenced by zenith 2013. one FINAL BOSS, two unknown players, two competitors.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I don't mind bracket pools nearly as much if top 4 get out instead of top 2. There were way too many solid players who lost in LF (like Dexter and others) and couldn't show their stuff at Apex for example.

 

[mixa]

I don't mind bracket pools nearly as much if top 4 get out instead of top 2. There were way too many solid players who lost in LF (like Dexter and others) and couldn't show their stuff at Apex for example.

?
i don't get why so many people think this way. "death pools"
bracket pools is just a big bracket, 'getting out' doesn't mean anything. that's like looking at apex13 bracket, drawing a line somewhere (before top8), and saying Firo, Sheer, etc, didn't get to show their stuff because they didn't get out of 'pools'.

if we made top 4 get out at apex14, we'd have a top 16 instead of a top 8. i don't see any difference, except if you have a fetish for the grand stage.


same thing with getting out of pools at evo. it doesn't mean anything. the pools cutoff is just whatever suits the math to eventually round up to a top 8
it's just WORDS

 

[Cobrevolution]

thus

i wouldn't mind bracket pools AS MUCH if they treated each pool like an actual bracket instead of pieces of one large one, with bo5 sets for ws, wf, lq, ls, and lf.

still, ruoka and sheer should not have played twice, nor jam and kero. it's pretty ****ed to think that if sheer had, upon losing to ruoka the first time, moved over to like, boom's part of the bracket, he probably would've placed higher or something.

i don't see any difference, except if you have a fetish for the grand stage.

not a fetish. just a sour taste in my mouth being relegated to 10am finals again while like, injustice got 2pm. FOH

 

[Sedda]

Run your own tourney then, guys. Seriously.

This is like going to a friend's house for Thanksgiving and thinking you have any say on how the table's gonna be set up, or how the guy likes to make his turkey. If you don't like it that much, you say thanks and never come back. That way you can celebrate Thanksgiving at your house and make turkey the way you like it.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i'd have thanksgiving at my own house, but i don't have a house of my own.

so i'd have to rent a place, and charge people to come and eat. and count on everyone who shows up to bring their own stuff with them - food, utensils, plates, drinks, etc.

if i can't get enough people to come to the place i rented, i lose money out of my own pocket, and then probably will be blacklisted for not meeting certain requirements. the place certainly won't want me to come back, and i certainly won't want to go there again.

let's also assume i want this to be a popular dinner. so i want to have all the good things about thanksgiving - beer, turkey, mashed potatoes - but no stuffing. i refuse to have stuffing. and a ham. two of the most popular side dishes of thanksgiving dinner. and a lot of the people who might come, probably only eat ham and stuffing (strange, yes, but there are stranger people in the world).

i also want more people to come the next year, and be more involved in various cooking events throughout the year leading up to it. but the place i'm at, we've recorded the dinner on our cell phones, since none of us are affiliated with any television network or internet site that can broadcast our dinner to the world and make people more interested. we have to rely on word of mouth and sparse recordings floating around the internet. nobody will sponsor our dinner.

am i making sense? apex has the sponsored streams, the venue, the participants who can and do play multiple games who can increase the size of the 64 community, they have the history and legacy, the well known atmosphere about them, the marketing to attract people from all over the world to compete in an international event that happens only once a year.

one more thing about the thanksgiving analogy - every single time i've cooked thanksgiving dinner, or easter dinner, or any celebratory event in college, i asked people what they wanted. i listened to my guests because they're my ****ing guests, and it would be a tremendous insult to ignore their wishes. that's why i made two kinds of most things - regular, and vegetarian, for the one dude who was vegetarian.

i've resigned anything argumentative about apex until the time comes. i am giving up on the pools issue in favor of a better finals time and a more organized bracket, one that doesn't result in 75 dq's. zenith is much smaller and has much more leeway for things. i assume that's a big reason doubles are being included. to not have RR pools (which are generally favored over bracket) for something that is looking like a 50-60 person event is just disappointing - especially considering it was the first thing mentioned.

 

[Sedda]

Apex has to worry about all of those things you mentioned too. Having sponsors doesn't solve everything, and caring about "guests" is also something they have to worry about, but here's the difference: the most important part of what I said was the "not coming back" thing. You knew how Apex was going to run its tourney, you knew about the 10 am deal, and you went anyway only to come back and be mad about it. All of that regardless of the fact that they gave you the biggest NA 64 tourney with most of the top NA players and some top international players in attendance.

It doesn't matter how poorly you think Apex was run for 64 (or overall). They know how to fix their problems and they will, but there are things you can't negotiate with them because it's their house. If you think that's an insult to you as their guest, then don't go back. The stream time probably has A LOT to do with pleasing sponsors through maximizing attendance and viewership (which you yourself claim is VERY important). ssb64 is not as popular as the other games, so there you go. Have you noticed how big Melee has gotten this year? They have to accommodate more time for Melee and PM because they have to allot extra stream time, which equals more views, which equals more sponsors in the future.

They're not making bad decisions with 64 and they won't think they're making bad decisions until people stop attending. The problem with that is that they won't care if you stop attending. They can simply decide to not do a 64 tournament anymore and would literally lose nothing. They would gain time that they can use for PM and Melee crew battles, low tier tourneys, exhibition matches, blah blah. That's why it's important to not complain, but only provide constructive criticism without sounding like a bunch of crybabies. You have to work with team Apex because they're literally all NA has as far as big 64 nationals/internationls/ w/e.

IN THE MEANTIME, you should ask your guests how they like their turkey so that you can make it your own way. Maybe you'll start small, but if it's run smoothly and the turkey tastes real good, it'll get more popular. Eventually you might surprise yourself and realize you don't even have to attend the more popular guy's dinner because yours is about the TRUE meaning of Thanksgiving. The genocide of Native Americans... or playing ssb.

 

[Cobrevolution]

You knew how Apex was going to run its tourney

here's the thing, sedda - a lot of what we "knew", we didn't really "know" for a while. zenith 2013 had strife say, "we're working on getting you guys pools for apex!" and everyone lost their ****. because we had been told simply "pools," without specification, most of us assumed it would be the same deal as zenith. clearly, that wasn't the case, something that some of us had issue with.

you knew about the 10 am deal,

no. we were told by mike that he was going to try to get us a more favorable time, something we believed would happen, because there's no reason to not believe him or believe we should have a better slot. and then he went abroad, and came back to discover that staff had went ahead and given us the same ****ty slot they did the year before - actually worse, 2013 was 11am.

The stream time probably has A LOT to do with pleasing sponsors through maximizing attendance and viewership (which you yourself claim is VERY important). ssb64 is not as popular as the other games, so there you go. Have you noticed how big Melee has gotten this year? They have to accommodate more time for Melee and PM because they have to allot extra stream time, which equals more views, which equals more sponsors in the future.

i know all this. everyone does, it's not something anyone is debating. that being said, it still doesn't excuse the fact that 64 is always - i repeat, ALWAYS - shoved aside, or the first thing cut from a stream. one of the ways to increase the potential popularity for 64 issssssssss...more stream time! ample stream time! fair stream time! i'm not asking for us to be broadcast on two streams for every match, but certainly don't **** us over by preventing most people from watching by putting us on at 10am on a ****ing saturday. remember that uniformity bull****? that #oneunit nonsense? yeah.

They're not making bad decisions with 64 and they won't think they're making bad decisions until people stop attending. The problem with that is that they won't care if you stop attending. They can simply decide to not do a 64 tournament anymore and would literally lose nothing.

you don't see a problem with this? everyone knows apex is THE event for 64, where anyone who's anyone goes to 1. compete and 2. hang out with people they haven't seen in a year or more and 3. play a game they love for a weekend (alternatively, spend time in the area, sight seeing and whatnot, a la pete and jerry and the japanese).

remember when that mod said, "maybe we should lock the 64 section and make it read only, considering there hasn't been any new info there in years?"

yeah. that's the kind of **** i despise. so if apex's attitude is "well they have nowhere else to go so we can do whatever we want" then i see no point in offering criticism, because they're going to do what they want anyway, the players' requests and likes be damned. i do not think that is their attitude, though.

apparently, most people do not respond to criticism until it becomes negative. it took an extremely long time for ruoka to be moved from brawl to 64, after multiple tweets and comments about the issue. nobody addressed the pools issue (with a good explanation that isn't "because that's how it's going to be and you're going to like it", an explanation we can all agree is despicably condescending and warrants much worse verbal abuse than anyone gave) until well after the thread was made. people still had problems with the finals time.

just in case people forgot the thread i made - http://smashboards.com/threads/fixing-apex-sans-cobr-rage-for-better-presentation.346562/ - which addressed all of the issues i had. there are all sorts of good comments and discussions in that thread, and when the time comes, i'll probably make another thread in the apex section that has a lot of those kinds of things listed.

edit: sedda i'm not calling you out or anything, but you said it yourself - this is ALL 64 has, and the people should have a good tourney and experience. this is why i urge people to ****ing speak up. if you had an issue at apex, talk about it, why it was a problem, etc. if you liked something, talk about it, why it worked, etc. and if nobody listens or shrugs us off, of ****ing course i'm gonna get pissed, and then i'm gonna rip into people. if it results in me getting banned from the event but 64 gets what's fair, well, so be it.

 

[Fireblaster]

I wish I could super like that post, cobre. 64 had more entrants than sf4 and it had more entrants than marvel at apex. And yet SF4 and Marvel got prime time on sunday. I bet sedda doesn't even know how 64 got treated after the 10 am finals were over on saturday.

The next melee/brawl/project lame player that says #oneunit unironically needs to go jump off a ****ing bridge.

 

[Sedda]

Nobody is calling anybody out, man. I'm just kinda repeating what I said months ago. And about your treatment after 10am, if you're talking about the 64 players getting kicked out of the room they were promised or whatever, yes I know about it and it sucks. If there's something else, let me know Fire.

Also, how many concurrent viewers did SF have (legitimately asking because I was working that weekend)? Would've Smash 64 gotten that same viewership? They make those decisions to make sure their tournaments can stay afloat and they have to appeal to the wider audience.

 

[Cobrevolution]

we were told we'd have a section to play at in the main room. we didn't. we were moved to the other room, a small half-outletted thing in the hallway off to the side nowhere near the main room. then, as night approached, we were moved again because of a "fire hazard" (instead of using two rooms, which would've held everyone who wanted to play). finally, we were put into some other room at the opposite end of the building, where we had to be super quiet or we'd get kicked out, despite it being "an all night room."

now, it's not simple to just corral a bunch of people and move them. you have to also transport televisions, setups and bags, and then if you went to eat, had to find the new place. this happened three times in the course of a day. it was incredibly frustrating.

further: the amount of sf4, injustice, skullgirls, persona, what****ingever players/viewers...irrelevant. why? because apex is a smash event. the "lowest" smash game should still have some kind of preferential treatment over the fighting game side events. let's be honest, it's not like the top players in the world went there for the other games. that's what evo is for (an event where i do not believe even melee has the most desirable slot?)

 

[Sedda]

Yeah, well to me the only legitimate complaint you should have was the room change issue, which is huge. The stream time slot is still understandable (imo) because of how popular the other games are. I don't watch other competitive video games so idk if there were good players there or not. I know Justin Wong was there at least.

 

[Fireblaster]

further: the amount of sf4, injustice, skullgirls, persona, what****ingever players/viewers...irrelevant. why? because apex is a smash event. the "lowest" smash game should still have some kind of preferential treatment over the fighting game side events. let's be honest, it's not like the top players in the world went there for the other games. that's what evo is for (an event where i do not believe even melee has the most desirable slot?)

Yes and I agree with this. This also happens in the FGC in several major tournaments, such as the UFGT series where Divekick gets better prime time slots over other games that would normally get it because UFGT is a pretty unique tournament and the guy who hosts it also was the main developer/creator of divekick.

However, one of my favorite ways to approach an argument is to completely destroy every single approach your opponent has. It's okay to come out dominant in a discussion where both sides have good points but you happen to have stronger ones. It's even better to win by taking away every point the other side has. So let's go with sedda's argument that viewership and whatever is what determines primetime as opposed to how many dedicated players enter a tournament for a game:

CASE IN ****ING POINT

 

[Cobrevolution]

what i would like to have are numbers for each game. i do know that neither ssf4 nor mvc had the numbers that 64 did.

but look at javi's picture. views aside, look at the crowd behind the players. there were soooo many people watching 64's top8 - same with the top4 (cough) last year.

it's just unfair to put ssf4 and mvc and mk and anything else like that above a smash game, when the event is primarily for smash games. i really don't think apex is that big of a deal to the FGC (javi, correct me if i'm wrong), and as a result, there won't be as many viewers as there will be for the smash games.

and #oneunit should include a good representation of 64. not stuck on a stage at 10am and forced to have the least desirable slot. i do not like the people who hashtag that **** and then conveniently ignore 64...or even brawl, despite how awful brawl is. people like them all. give them each their due. it's only fair and right.

 

[Sedda]

Ok, that's great!

When I said viewership, I was talking about live viewers on twitch, but this is pretty cool to see. I think this kinda evidence is stuff that has to be assembled and shown to Strife for Apex.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i'm not sure if anyone keeps records of that stuff. i could send a few emails but i doubt jaxel and spooky and whoever else would know the numbers :/

regardless, apex is a ways off, and the primary concern for this thread is zenith. the NYU venue looks good, albeit labyrinthine, so i'm hoping we get something sectioned off for us. there is a hotel nearby that i'm considering getting a 101 buck room at, obviously sharing with some other folk. because of a smaller player base, we obviously have more time, thus...doubles. and hopefully rr pools. but, if rr pools are nixed, i would prefer if we have mini brackets (bracket pools) with FULL bo5 sets in ws wf etcetcetc.

 

[Fireblaster]

what i would like to have are numbers for each game. i do know that neither ssf4 nor mvc had the numbers that 64 did.

SF4 and Marvel were the two biggest FGC games at Apex

Super Street Fighter 4 AE 1v1 (100 Entrants)

Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 1v1 (85 Entrants)

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/apex-2014-results-january-17-19-2014-somerset-nj.346543/

i really don't think apex is that big of a deal to the FGC (javi, correct me if i'm wrong), and as a result, there won't be as many viewers as there will be for the smash games..

Apex is pretty much just a regional event to the FGC. I'm surprised that west coast players such as justin wong, mike ross, chris G, etc. came to apex.

Ok, that's great!

When I said viewership, I was talking about live viewers on twitch.

That information is almost impossible to obtain at this point unless the streamers recorded it themselves since any recorded stream you can find on twitch shows the views compiled over all the games on stream (sf4 + marvel is stored as a single video stream, brawl + melee as another, 64 + niche fighting games as another).

 

[Sedda]

Yeah exact numbers wouldn't be possible to get, but I assume Spooky (or the other streamers) could tell you if a certain game was getting more concurrent views than another game even if they don't remember the amount, but I hadn't compared the views on youtube. Maybe that's even better because it shows there's more long term interest for 64 (at apex) than for the other fgc games.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

if we made top 4 get out at apex14, we'd have a top 16 instead of a top 8. i don't see any difference, except if you have a fetish for the grand stage. Same thing with getting out of pools at evo. it doesn't mean anything. the pools cutoff is just whatever suits the math to eventually round up to a top 8. it's just WORDS

I do in many ways, though in a different way than you would expect. It is more that if we had (outside of some of Japan, Peru, and some of the top European Players) probably at least 50 of the top 100 players in the world if not more last Apex and after giant brackets where numerous exceptional people who would had won other tournaments eliminated in Loser's Semi's/Loser's Finals, we had a miniature bracket.

On another note, though related:
Honestly, for a smash game at a smash tournament, it wasn't exactly given a good time either which doesn't help things. I wouldn't mind it being top 8 nearly as much if the final bracket wasn't done on a Saturday. I mean honestly, we had people coming in as far away as Australia and Europe, and Japan, while SF4/Marvel had such faraway places as California and Florida.

 

[Skrlx]

I'm pretty sure the Japanese had an awesome time carrying a chair to the "quiet room" because we got kicked out of the other room for the 20th time.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Yeah, well to me the only legitimate complaint you should have was the room change issue, which is huge. The stream time slot is still understandable (imo) because of how popular the other games are. I don't watch other competitive video games so idk if there were good players there or not. I know Justin Wong was there at least.

Yo they should just not do any smash games and make it a league of legends tournament cause they'll probably get way more views

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

we were told we'd have a section to play at in the main room. we didn't. we were moved to the other room, a small half-outletted thing in the hallway off to the side nowhere near the main room. then, as night approached, we were moved again because of a "fire hazard" (instead of using two rooms, which would've held everyone who wanted to play). finally, we were put into some other room at the opposite end of the building, where we had to be super quiet or we'd get kicked out, despite it being "an all night room."

now, it's not simple to just corral a bunch of people and move them. you have to also transport televisions, setups and bags, and then if you went to eat, had to find the new place. this happened three times in the course of a day. it was incredibly frustrating.

"we were moved to another room" eh, me and a few others had to force ourselves into a room. There was that freeplay room around the corner to the breakfast restaurant that we were recommended to go to, that place sucked cuz all the melee setups. So we had to move to the fire hazard room ourselves.

At least nintendude helped me announce the movement of 64 setups to another room for me.

for ZENITH: I plan on bringing marlwolf with me

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Yes and I agree with this. This also happens in the FGC in several major tournaments, such as the UFGT series where Divekick gets better prime time slots over other games that would normally get it because UFGT is a pretty unique tournament and the guy who hosts it also was the main developer/creator of divekick.

However, one of my favorite ways to approach an argument is to completely destroy every single approach your opponent has. It's okay to come out dominant in a discussion where both sides have good points but you happen to have stronger ones. It's even better to win by taking away every point the other side has. So let's go with sedda's argument that viewership and whatever is what determines primetime as opposed to how many dedicated players enter a tournament for a game:

CASE IN ****ING POINT

The best part about this is the crowds in the background

any TO that says bracket pools are better than rr pools because its easier to manage 4 brackets than 8 pools is not smart enough to be a TO. because the rr pools manage themselves

 

[Cobrevolution]

yesss MARLLLLLL

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

The best part about this is the crowds in the background

any TO that says bracket pools are better than rr pools because its easier to manage 4 brackets than 8 pools is not smart enough to be a TO. because the rr pools manage themselves

For the later part, NOPE.

As someone who worked as a rr bracket manager at previous events (in a very large event,) it never works out right. Some scores are not reported or a person is not added right. If there isn't someone there to help, it takes forever for things to finish.

 

[Cobrevolution]

registration is up

----> https://apexseries.wufoo.com/forms/zenith-2014-registration/ <----

dale

 

[Fireblaster]

Can't wait to get dead last in the bracket again

 

[Cobrevolution]

sign up but don't go, then you're guaranteed to get a higher spot

 

[Doomolish]

Off topic: Is there gonna be 64 at Apex 2015?

 

[Shears]

Only if we're on our best behavior for zenith.

 

[Maliki]

sign up but don't go, then you're guaranteed to get a higher spot

lol true

 

[The Star King]

Off topic: Is there gonna be 64 at Apex 2015?

Alex Strife said there will be at the end of Apex 2014.

 

[Cobrevolution]

so you coming sk? You and killer gonna be the kb reps again? +keyboardking if he decides to do one

 

[mixa]

so you coming sk?

son, even death is a maybe for him

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

registration is up
----> https://apexseries.wufoo.com/forms/zenith-2014-registration/ <----

dale

Need a (joke) tag to register with.

 

[Cobrevolution]

...sssssssso?

 

[mixa]

Need a (joke) tag to register with.

i thought this was a no-brainer

SheerMadness / FalconKickBeatsUtilt

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i thought this was a no-brainer

SheerMadness / FalconKickBeatsUtilt

Well my original thought was MeerShadness or Bangoku

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Well my original thought was MeerShadness or Bangoku

Stud Chrisstill