ZELDA UPDATE :No Twiight Change but there is SHEIK

[-spAzn-]

****, so Zelda is still under wraps huh? Here I was really hoping for some info on her. They really need to make sure that what they say is 100% true before they get everyones hopes up. Dojo please help us next week.

 

[Arean]

Lets just wait till the japanese release date... its not THAT long.... T__T

 

[Ztarfish]

less than two weeks. I'm pretty stoked.

 

[Arean]

i wonder if he will update her this week.... ZELDA UPDATE! FINAL SMASH
blagh! we already know about this no thanks to u sakurai....

I want to know about her special moves!!!

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Oh well. Zelda is Zelda. I'm going to use her beside Krystal either way. Even without Sheik, just hope her down B is something useful

-Onyx

 

[The_Corax_King]

If Sheik was in, they wouldn't keep her hidden all this time, as if she was that special.

Seriously now... I'm REALLY beginning to think you're just arguing against sheik's return because YOU don't want her in...


You put up a ploy that "it doesnt make sense for TP zelda to transform " when with posts like this is OBVIOUS you just don't like sheik...

She obviously is special because of the amount of arguments she generates... and are luigi, captain falcon, and ganondorf really that special? they've been hidden this entire time...

The fact that the names of Zelda's moves are STILL OoT names really kills the whole "Brawl Zelda = 100% TP Zelda" argument...

And why would Sakurai hold back if her down B was just a regular attack?

 

[Arean]

lets just wait for the OFFICIAL update...... if its sheik... why all the secrecy?

 

[Airgemini]

Really I mean 7 months is a long time...

 

[Pokec]

I think the whole reason for the long dealy is the anticipation of wondering if Sheik makes it back or not.

Id think that Skurai is hesitating to post bot because Sheik is/is not in the game, but to annoy/surprise us in the mean time before there is any official release of Zelda's Down B.

Sure, Sheik isn't that special that she should be hidden from us at this point, but I think its the whole feeling of surprise and anticipation...

 

[Mediator]

this would be my stipulation if sheik was in> you turn into sheik~~~ your start getting pwnd then the damage force changes you back into zelda. at least that would be reasonable.

but im starting to think there wont be a Zelda/sheik combo I think they're going to be separate char.s

just a guess ~_~

 

[Arean]

unless sakurai removes the option of u beginning as sheik.... also... it may be possible for both of them to have this magic stamina wherein zelda turns to sheik and sheik has a limited time to play then needs to return as zelda so she can "recharge" magic to turn to sheik again. crazy idea but who know... i just want brawl now!

 

[Pokec]

i cant see there being anything else for Down B now that Light arrows has been confirmed as a Final Smash..

I mean.....what ELSE could Zelda possible do?

 

[deividdo-chan]

I agree with you guys. It just feels like all the Zelda players are just trying to find excuses to get rid of Sheik. I personally would really like Sheik back- in any form

Keep in mind that even though I am saying this, I AM A MAIN ZELDA PLAYER. I play her 80% of the time. The rest is Sheik.

This goes for other characters too. I feel like people just don't want certain characters in because they just dislike them. What about the other players who use them? Shouldn't this game be enjoyed by everyone? The characters I'm referring to are Falco, Gannon, C. Falcon, Roy, Marth, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, Mewtwo, etc. I believe those characters are original in their own right, and should not be excluded. They just need original movesets or become "luigified," that's all.

And keep in mind that I don't play any of those characters- this game should be fun for everyone

Sorry, a little fired up there

Oh and while I'm at it, I want Krystal, Issac, Geno, Wolf in it too!! ^^

 

[Stiputation]

Well Zelda does have that nifty Rapier that she could use.

DownB: Rapier Slash

 

[Luthien]

I agree with you guys. It just feels like all the Zelda players are just trying to find excuses to get rid of Sheik. I personally would really like Sheik back- in any form

Excuses. Excuses? No, there are REASONS. Look thoughout this forum, Deividdo, and you'll find them. Don't assume we're making the stuff up. There is a difference between excuses and reasons. I'm not going to post all of that crap again, so go looking for it. That said, I'd really like it known that that was directed towards you and all of the "Sheik Hater" haters, too. (I know you aren't one, don't worry. Your post just bugged me. A lot.)

I'd like it known that THERE ARE REASONS. DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT; LOOK IT UP!! GET INFORMED BEFORE YOU POST THINGS LIKE THAT.

Keep in mind that even though I am saying this, I AM A MAIN ZELDA PLAYER. I play her 80% of the time. The rest is Sheik.

This goes for other characters too. I feel like people just don't want certain characters in because they just dislike them. What about the other players who use them? Shouldn't this game be enjoyed by everyone? The characters I'm referring to are Falco, Gannon, C. Falcon, Roy, Marth, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, Mewtwo, etc. I believe those characters are original in their own right, and should not be excluded. They just need original movesets or become "luigified," that's all.

And keep in mind that I don't play any of those characters- this game should be fun for everyone

Sorry, a little fired up there

Oh and while I'm at it, I want Krystal, Issac, Geno, Wolf in it too!! ^^

Yes, there are people who are like that. But MOST of us have LOGIC involved to.

For example, I don't think Sheik SHOULD be in because I've distanced myself from the topic and taken away all personal bias regarding that. Do I still want Sheik in? Of course. I just know that s/he SHOULDN'T be, based on the Universal Theme Smash seemed to be going with. That doesn't mean I think s/he WILL be, though. I think Sheik is incredibly likely, despite all of the reasons s/he shouldn't be in Brawl.

Regarding the Universal Theme, though, I'm getting creeped. After reading the description of Link, things have changed for me. Here:

"The hero of The Legend of Zelda series.
The design of this particular Link comes from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess."

Oh, no. There are some key words which screw everything up. First:
"...design..." This word supports the Universal Theory. It implies that Link is infact only in this skin, but he represents ALL of the Links from previous Zelda games. So far, so good.

Here comes the bad part:
"...this particular Link..." Crap. This could imply that all the Links from the seperate Links from each Smash game have been, in fact, DIFFERENT Links, each from one individual game. Something that makes me assume this is Melee Link's trophy description, along with Zelda's.

The trophies only describe ONE Link/Zelda. So maybe Brawl characters AREN'T Universal characters. What if Melee Zelda is actually ONLY Ocarina of Time Zelda, and Brawl Zelda is ONLY Twilight Princess Zelda? It's not like anything can refute that, since Zelda's Bralw confirmed specials may have been named AFTER OoT moves (in fact, that could have just of been coincidence), but they weren't ACTUALLY.

Whether this hinders or helps Sheik's odds is up to you all to decide.

 

[deividdo-chan]

So in your example, you are saying that people say Sheik's not in because they conclude that Smash Bros Brawl won't have a universal theme?? That if Sheik's present, that'll mess up with the consistency of the Zelda characters being the the TP era?

... Let me ask why?

Frankly, the presence of Sheik in Brawl, I think, won't mess up the game- they have complete control of how they want the game to be. So, anything goes- as long as they do a good job.

... And how would people know for sure that it's not universally themed?? There is no definite confirmation.

And I do know that there are reasonable people out there who says Sheik's not in, but there are still some who just don't want her in.

ZELDA ROCKS!!!!!

 

[Luthien]

So in your example, you are saying that people say Sheik's not in because they conclude that Smash Bros Brawl won't have a universal theme?? That if Sheik's present, that'll mess up with the consistency of the Zelda characters being the the TP era?

... Let me ask why?

Frankly, the presence of Sheik in Brawl, I think, won't mess up the game- they have complete control of how they want the game to be. So, anything goes- as long as they do a good job.

You're missing the point. NOBODY worth listening to has said that Sheik WILL/WON'T be in Brawl. My example was to show the differences between the whether Sheik SHOULD be in Brawl argument and the whether she CAN be in Brawl argument. Does that help? I don't think Sheik SHOULD be in Brawl, because s/he's a minor character (more of a tool, really) who appeared in only one game(this is where Universal representation comes in), and it would be nice to see Zelda kick some butt without being hindered or relying on an alter-ego of some kind. In this case, that happens to be Sheik. However, I think that Sheik CAN be in, because it's entirely his desicion. Does that make sense?

... And how would people know for sure that it's not universally themed?? There is no definite confirmation.

Exactly. What I had posted was an actual question. I would actually like to know if Brawl Zelda IS Universal Zelda, becuase that's what I've been basing my logic on thus far. If Brawl Zelda were to be only Twilight Princess Zelda, my basis on what SHOULD happen (again, not CAN) would change entirely.

And I do know that there are reasonable people out there who says Sheik's not in, but there are still some who just don't want her in.

No. Anyone who flat out says "Sheik's not in" is not reasonable. The sign of a reasonable person should be one who is willing to be corrected and is willing to accept that they aren't in charge of the Brawl project.

ZELDA ROCKS!!!!!

QFT.

 

[Ztarfish]

Sheik in all likelyhood will be in. However, she shouldn't be. That's the whole point. It's not that Sheik will mess up gameplay, or anything like that. It's purely that Sheik, if included, would be an anomaly. Every single character in the game so far has been either the main character, an important character, or an iconic character. Sheik has none of those claims. And before you say that Sheik and Zelda are the same person, I seem to recall the same group of people asserting that Zelda and Sheik weren't the same person. Which they aren't. So why is she likely? Because she played well in Melee.

It's not that I don't want her in Brawl (even though I don't) it's just that she shouldn't be in. There are lots of characters suggested for Brawl I don't really want in, but I don't complain about them, because they are well deserving.

 

[Luthien]

Sheik in all likelyhood will be in. However, she shouldn't be. That's the whole point. It's not that Sheik will mess up gameplay, or anything like that. It's purely that Sheik, if included, would be an anomaly. Every single character in the game so far has been either the main character, an important character, or an iconic character. Sheik has none of those claims. And before you say that Sheik and Zelda are the same person, I seem to recall the same group of people asserting that Zelda and Sheik weren't the same person. Which they aren't. So why is she likely? Because she played well in Melee.

It's not that I don't want her in Brawl (even though I don't) it's just that she shouldn't be in. There are lots of characters suggested for Brawl I don't really want in, but I don't complain about them, because they are well deserving.

Oh, yes! Bingo! Somebody gets it! A gold star for you, good sir!

The only reason "Sheik lovers" think Sheik will be in is that she hasn't been hindered (officially) thus far. It's not that Sheik doesn't have going against her (s/he does), it's that everybody knows that Sakurai will probably ignore the things that are in Sheik's way. Sheik has no real reason to be in Brawl, and the reasons that s/he SHOULDN'T be in Brawl are [probably going to be] ignored.

THAT is what you see if you look at it from an unemotional, unbiased perspective.

 

[frankisvital]

The Sheik we all hate/love is not the Sheik from OoT. It's the Sheik from Super Smash Brothers Melee. I'd be willing to bet that most Sheik-adorers like her because of her ease and ability of play, not because of her (lack of) character in canon.

 

[Luthien]

The Sheik we all hate/love is not the Sheik from OoT. It's the Sheik from Super Smash Brothers Melee. I'd be willing to bet that most Sheik-adorers like her because of her ease and ability of play, not because of her (lack of) character in canon.

Some, not most. Don't underestimate Sheik's fanbase (I'm a fan of OoT Sheik, but not Melee Sheik; strange, huh?). It's assumptions like that that create dischord in the Zelda forum.

I'd love it if we'd all stop labeling each other. People definitely take offense from that, and it just makes posts seem biased. And bias leads to idiocy, and idiocy leads to flaming.

Anyway, I'm assuming everyone's noticed how active the Zelda forum was when the fake Sheik confirmed thing just came up. I hate that... Zelda's forum needs to be that active at all times! *Shakes fist.*

As for the down-b move, though, I think that if it IS Sheik, the last thing they'll call it is Twilight Change. I thought the move was fake right from the start with that name: what on earth would Twilight have to do with it?

 

[Ztarfish]

Oh, yes! Bingo! Somebody gets it! A gold star for you, good sir!

Why thank you *bow*

It's quite hard to be unbiased though when you do want Sheik out for personal reasons. I personally dislike Sheik a lot because it's quite tiring and gets old fast when your friends claim you only won because of Sheik, and in matches where you don't use Sheik you get accused of only winning because you are an opportunist.

So yeah, Sheik is definitely not a star character in my book, however I don't use that as why I think that Sheik won't/shouldn't be in.

EDIT: Yeah, it's kind of frustrating how the Zelda forums get flooded by tons of new people when Sheik is 'semi-confirmed'. Perhaps those should get to know the other side of Sheik?

 

[deividdo-chan]

Zelda already kicks butt even without Sheik. It's just a matter of playing her correctly btw.

Even though Sheik may have little importance in the whole Zelda Universe. Sheik is an original character- no other character is like her. Why scrap her?

Yeah I understand your reasons and I agree. We have to wait and see if that reasoning will come to fruition.

Am I Sheik biased? Maybe to you guys. But since I main Zelda I think so other wise. Look everyone here's different. And frankly I don't really care if Sheik makes it in. But it'll be nice if she did.

 

[Stiputation]

The Sheik we all hate/love is not the Sheik from OoT. It's the Sheik from Super Smash Brothers Melee. I'd be willing to bet that most Sheik-adorers like her because of her ease and ability of play, not because of her (lack of) character in canon.

Said like a true lover of Stippy. I'm expecting a proposal from you soon.

People who want Sheik in are only supporting her due to her awesomeness in Melee. Simply put, Sheik totally had that cool factor about her, had a pretty easy playstyle and was the pure epitome of a character most people would like.

Its pretty easy to see why she has so much support for Brawl. However, its impossible for people to appreciate her because the roles that she has had in previous games that weren't Super Smash Bros. Why? Because not only has she only been in ONE game of the Legend of Zelda/-insertrandomtransformationofacharacterherebecauseZeldaALWAYShastotransformintosomeone, but because the role that she had in that ONE game was relatively small. There just no way someone could truely appreciate Sheik for the summary of her character because ultimately, she has none.

For example, its easy for people to understand the support that Sonic is getting simply because people like his personality AND his playstyle. Its just unfair that the true character like Zelda needs to get stuck with a one time gimmick that just HAS to be in Brawl because she had simply playstyle. It doesn't exploit the true meaning of her character and wastes a move that could define Zelda. Its just not right :/

 

[Luthien]

Zelda already kicks butt even without Sheik. It's just a matter of playing her correctly btw.

No. Zelda sucked in Melee. Bad. This is fact. Her moves were okay in and of themselves, but the added lag/start-up time (given to her to, wait for it, highlight the differences from her and Sheik) killed her. The fact that she didn't have an attack down-b didn't help matters.

Even though Sheik may have little importance in the whole Zelda Universe. Sheik is an original character- no other character is like her. Why scrap her?

So was Malo from Twilight Princess. Should he be in Brawl? (Relax, I know what you mean. This is just the argument you are going to be presented with.)

Yeah I understand your reasons and I agree. We have to wait and see if that reasoning will come to fruition.

Am I Sheik biased? Maybe to you guys. But since I main Zelda I think so other wise. Look everyone here's different. And frankly I don't really care if Sheik makes it in. But it'll be nice if she did.

Biased? You? No more than I am. The fact that you are willing to understand our logic shows that you aren't the third level of biased. I'm biased. I just happen to have a natural talent of being analytical and solving problems without emotion. That's the kind of person I am.

 

[deividdo-chan]

Mmmmm.... I still think Zelda kicks ***. If she was really that bad. Then hopefully Brawl will make her kick more ***. :D

Malo? LOL no. A reasonable fighting game character is what I mean.

Well we all are biased in some way- I mean we all are human.

Such a lively afternoon, ty all of that. I'll be back someday

 

[The_Corax_King]

The Sheik we all hate/love is not the Sheik from OoT. It's the Sheik from Super Smash Brothers Melee. I'd be willing to bet that most Sheik-adorers like her because of her ease and ability of play, not because of her (lack of) character in canon.

I don't like her for that reason... but because she just looks totally awesome in Melee...

 

[Layupfreak]

hahahahah awsome this is awsome!

 

[Luthien]

hahahahah awsome this is awsome!

...oro?

What's so awesome? Specify, please.

 

[Mediator]

Ok this is what iv gotten so far @_@

from the people of Zelda

1.sheik being in melee nerfed Zelda
2. Zelda deserves to be her own char.
3. If Zelda doesnt have sheik she will PWN

from the people of sheik

1.sheik is awesome
2.sheik is cool
3. sheik is in

ok so since Zelda is sheik and sheik is Zelda i think it would only be fitting to obtain sheik in some sort of randomness and have Zelda be her own char. say like Your playing as zelda and you completly pwn your opp and you still have your first life and then all of a sudden holy **** i just transformed into sheik! and when you start getting pwned you turn back ooooorrrrrr you landed the first hit and you haven't been hit for a whole 60 sec and then all of a sudden SOB i just turned into sheik!
I know that would just add insult to injury but, I like happy mediums, hence the name!

kinda like samus and zamus would you say they're balanced?
well we wont know until it comes out but yeah. ()_()

but yeah

confused yet?

 

[The_Corax_King]

Zelda IS her own character...
Sheik IS her own character...

They have ONE less move than everyone else...

Sheik was godly in Melee, and Zelda was trash...

I don't see why people think this HAS to happen in brawl... and that sheik's inclusion will automatically reduce zelda to her horrible melee state...

Why can't both characters be balanced? It's not a hard concept to grasp...

 

[The_Corax_King]

double post edit...

 

[Mediator]

Zelda IS her own character...
Sheik IS her own character...

They have ONE less move than everyone else...

Sheik was godly in Melee, and Zelda was trash...

I don't see why people think this HAS to happen in brawl... and that sheik's inclusion will automatically reduce zelda to her horrible melee state...

Why can't both characters be balanced? It's not a hard concept to grasp...

if your comment was aimed at me and you realize I was talking from the story/cannon poit of veiw then this is going to be like explaining to the samus fans that
samus and zamus are one in the same "they are not the same person!"

okay then who is operating the suit? "Er samus?"
Nope Zero suit samus is in the suit
"NO SHE'S NOT YOUR DUMB!"

so is sheik her own seperate char. in the LOZ series? or is it really Zelda in a disguise?

der de der!!!

 

[Luthien]

Zelda IS her own character...
Sheik IS her own character...

They have ONE less move than everyone else...

Sheik was godly in Melee, and Zelda was trash...

I don't see why people think this HAS to happen in brawl... and that sheik's inclusion will automatically reduce zelda to her horrible melee state...

Why can't both characters be balanced? It's not a hard concept to grasp...

See the Zelda Appreciation thread, posts 153, 156, and 160 (there are others, but these are the highlights).

Basically, since Melee insists on giving the two different (opposing, really) attributes, one will naturally be stronger than the other.

Summarised:
Zelda and Sheik were supposed to be made weak so they'd have to depend on the switch move, and you would have to play as both.

They realised that depending on the switch would make the two get destroyed, becuase it would be impossible to switch while being combo'd. So they made tried to make the characters strong enough to hold their own.

Naturally, you can't have both, so Nintendo got torn in two directions, not completey letting go of either. It's not the performance of the move that's twisted, it's the concept itself. It's really hard to describe summarised, so check that thread out.

Not to mention, one move is all it takes for Zelda to be able to suddenly not get camped/gimped so easily. Down-b transformation was that move in Melee, but we'd like to see Zelda's actual character (not Link, not Tetra, not Sheik) fight and win for a change. Imagine Fox's game without his Down-b: still incredibly good, but the shine is a HUGE part of his play. Zelda might have REALLY missed out on something; not that we'll know now.

Point being, part of the concept ITSELF would have to change for the system to work effectively.

 

[The_Corax_King]

So you still think it's impossible to balance Zelda/Sheik but still have them fair compared to other characters?

I think the developers are creative enough to make it work in one way or another...

 

[Iris]

Right. Everything they had was opposing, so there was nothing that met a medium. Zelda was slow, Sheik was fast. Zelda had short jumps and a slow fall. Sheik had high jumps and a fast fall. Zelda had long, slow dodges and rolls. Sheik had short, fast dodges and rolls. Zelda had strong KO moves and bad linking. Sheik had weak KO moves and great linking.

As you can see, there wasn't many happy mediums for either. However, Zelda's strengths weren't, well, strong enough to compensate for her weaknesses, and Sheik's strengths, such as her speed and linking, were highly favorable traits, like in any fighting game. Strong moves aren't very helpful when you get hit before you can use them, and Zelda's hitboxes and sweetspots didn't help either.

If they were to give Zelda the speed she needed then the whole "balances out to even" idea would be broken, and the substantial knockback needed to even things would make her more macho than Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Chuck Norris combined, which would be unfitting. As long as Zelda has to have properties that even out to a more agile counterpart then she won't be a better or equal half. Unless of course speedy characters stopped giving knockback.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

You know, If Ness or Marth is confirmed...that pretty much kills the arguement of continuity and Zelda might as well have Sheik unopposed

 

[Ztarfish]

As has been stated by Iris and Luthien, as long as Zelda has Sheik, Zelda will be the antithesis of a ninja. Thats just how the developers wanted it. The two can't be equal because they're opposites. Newton's third doesn't apply here I'm afraid

 

[deividdo-chan]

You know, they could make them both powerful. If she was weak as both, they can make them both stronger to fix that.

Of course that may lead some balancing issues... maybe. Who knows.

Oh and I think Zelda is Sheik in guise. If her body is biologically different, O_o (haha that would of have been a trip) I'd think she'd still have her consciousness. Otherwise she wouldn't of have knew Link.

 

[Dark Meta-Knight]

Pheew, Sheik deconfirmed. Great! Now Im happy again!

Why is this good?