My thoughts on Joker are that he feels like Sheik, but with Cloud's Limit with the normal and Limit strengths reversed. He has similar mobility, but is somehow more difficult to hit than Sheik and doesn't suffer the KO issues that Sheik does, but at the same time feels like an even bigger glass cannon. His normal version seems a little lackluster, so needs to play a rather hit and run camp game, racking damage while waiting for his "Limit" gauge to fill. Once Arsene comes out, his moves change a little and become much more powerful, killing surprisingly early. People might be thrown off by that major difference between the two states at first, but I feel like it's very similar to Smash 4 Cloud in needing to camp while waiting for Limit. This could very well become ZeRo's ideal character, given it kind of combined some of his favorite characters from 4.
Gun is good for interrupting combos and juggles and overall preventing what might have been a lackluster disadvantage, while being a great momentum killer. Eiha is a very good zoning tool, comes out fast and at a similar angle to Arcfire, which makes it difficult to reflect, while hitting that specific space blindspot in his arsenal and popping opponents up for a combo/juggle. Being able to continually damage opponents after a successful hit, is the icing on the cake. By far my favorite of his moves and likely going to be one of his most important ones.
I'm not too big on his counter, as it seems even more exploitable than normal, given how long it lasts, but it is clearly meant to be an integral part of his game. Up-B despite being a tether, is really good and allows for a lot of Indiana Jones shenanigans. I didn't test it, but I wonder if you could extend his offstage by continuously regrabbing with it. I guess technically that should work for all tethers, but there aren't any with this much range and speed. It could also be used for a Belmont like stage spike, in case you somehow manage to **** up and need to take your opponent with you, like I did on this Ganon. I didn't test using it as a grab or combo extender too much to really comment.
Arsene makes his all his moves much more powerful and he can kill pretty well with even his aerials with it. Eiha also upgrades to Eigaon, which is a sort of pseudo Arcfire that does a fair amount of knockback, but I personally didn't see much combo potential or any thing that would be substantially better than the normal one. Up-B is actually worse IMO and seems fairly exploitable on anything, but a low recovery on an aggressive opponent. Gun also doesn't seem to get too much of an upgrade. I actually prefer most of his normal specials over their Arsene upgrades and only feel like his normals get any significant boost.
All in all, I feel like Joker is going to be very mixed at first and get a lot of complaints of him being lackluster, only for those to reverse and become complaints of overpowered DLC, once he becomes more optimized. There is quite a lot of potential there for him to become an actual "5.99" unlike his predecessor.
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Might as well give some quick thoughts on the Zelda MU, while I'm at it. I'll hold off on anything too definitive and put them here, instead of the relevant thread, until Joker becomes more optimized.
I feel like Zelda might have a slight advantage in this MU. Joker is rather lackluster in his normal state and won't be killing anything outside of edgeguards. His Counter is pretty easily exploitable and can be baited by Phantom as per usual. That forces him to wait until his meter builds through damage and extends his time in his normal state. And like almost everyone else, he has no real answer for Phantom and so Zelda has the edge in neutral, as she can bide her time until one of the few openings occur. I think once Gun feels a little less awkward to use, it will be harder to zone with Phantom, but Joker will still have to deal with Zelda's superior range and defensive options.
Joker is also pretty light, so dies early if Zelda manages to land anything big. Joker also can't kill without Arsene, so Zelda doesn't quite have to worry about mistakes as much. However, the shoe can also be on the other foot in that, Joker is tiny, has lagless frame data, and a very low profile, so is very difficult for Zelda to land anything big.
Arsene changes things, allowing for Joker to kill Zelda around 100 for most of his stuff, but at the same time, he doesn't get the immense mobility and weight boosts Cloud does/did. He won't die as early, but still relatively early and he isn't much faster, meaning Zelda can camp him out and wait for his meter to run out. As long as Zelda is careful, she can avoid being killed early and wait for him to return to his lackluster normal state. Basically, play him like you would Cloud, except his normal state is much worse, with his "Limit" state being better in terms of kill power.
Overall, I think this MU will be more reliant on strategy and the player, than any real character advantage. Both characters can force each other out of their normal playstyle and exploit each others weaknesses pretty well. Zelda can break Joker's camping with Phantom, but Joker can potentially shutdown Phantom and Zelda can outspace Joker, but Joker can outmaneuver Zelda. It really will come down to strategy I think.
Do y'all ever run into people who die to you first stock and then SD the other two? This Daisy player did it repeatedly. It was Bo3 and I won 2-1, then after that... one stock and she quit over and over again. Just why.
I don't know that I ever had that happen over and over specifically, but I have had it happen once and then they left. There are just some weird players out there in general. I once had a player I beat pretty handily, let me take his first two stocks and then try to beat me with only one, as if he would be able to do that, despite losing a lot.
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