Official Zelda Patch Discussion - Patch 4.0 Incoming 7/30 (Version History Available in OP)

Codebox

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#41
Will do on the parrying. But my point is Zelda is so slow that you generally don't need to parry her attacks to punish her hard. Of course you don't want to parry her multi-hit attacks, but to my understanding, she doesn't have anything that has a very tight window for punishing like a lot of characters do.

But again, it's possible I am just bad.

Is it DI dependent? Because I've only sweetspotted very large characters. Never lighter ones. Do they have to be very close to you? I truthfully hardly use the move, because it feels like elevator, Dsmash, grab, etc. are just all better and more reliable. But, if there's an easy way to LK, let me know.

And as for the stuff about the kicks... I mean, that's how they worked in Sm4sh. That's how they've always worked. With the exception of Melee, they've been weaker parts of her kit. You use them because she doesn't have any other options besides like nair. Yeah, they can kill super early, but they're also largely the reason why she can fall behind in most matches. If you take away d-throw -> kick combos at low %s, it's not very uncommon to see Zelda go entire matches landing 3 or fewer kicks, and that's simply not the way good aerials work. I've watched other Zeldas play, and sometimes I'll watch an entire match where they don't get a kick.

They're great OoS and have low startup, yeah. They're still not good aerials. It's her signature move. I really don't think allowing you to auto-cancel them is the worst idea ever when she's already not combo-oriented.

The character is probably the best she's ever been. She's still not really good.
Exactly. I think having a auto-cancel window would bump Zelda up a tier, that and run speed. I think D-Air is the one exception to the rule because it's decreased lag justifies its sweetspot placement and spikes in general are suppose to be hard hitting. (Plus it has a rewarding soursport that lingers, yet the same doesn't work for her kicks?) Zelda doesn't need to be a combo warrior, she just needs aeriels that do the job of aeriels. In my opinion Zelda's only perfected moves are Farore's Wind, Phantom Slash (could use a blindspot buff and bit faster charge, but otherwise okay) Nayru's and U-Air which feels like a legit U-Air. (F-Smash is actually pretty decent this time as well)

People paint the problem of Zelda having the same aeriels with her LKs, but Villager and Isabelle's Bair and Fair are literally the same move, the real problem comes with if they are they same move they need to be good to justify their similarity.
 
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Ffamran

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#42
People paint the problem of Zelda having the same aerials with her LKs, but Villager and Isabelle's Bair and Fair are literally the same move, the real problem comes with if they are they same move they need to be good to justify their similarity.
It's more of what those same or similar moves do because Zelda's lightning kicks are arguably very good if you could consistently land the sweetspots. That's the problem, however, as they're high precision moves where flubbing them or trying to hit with their sourspots don't really do much or are sometimes dangerous for her unlike with, say, using the sourspots of Marth's and Roy's attacks. Isabelle and Villager's slingshot and Mega Man's lemons (jab, Ftilt, and Nair) are more practical as projectile normals they can use for zoning. Fox's dash attack and Nair are arguably the same moves as well. It's just one is a ground normal while the other is an aerial. They're still both reliable moves because of their low startup and low recovery.

Zelda having the same move for two of her aerials and them being situational or at least very punishing if you mess up with them is restricting for her. Nair is her most versatile aerial, but that's a lot to force onto one aerial.
 
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StoicPhantom

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#43
That's an extreme case, but what sort of "varying knockback angles" does any character have that would be so difficult to deal with if they moved fast? Most moves usually have one hit angle and at most have strong or weak hits through different hitboxes or timing, clean or late hits. Some might have two or three hit angles, but they don't vary so much like Ultimate Fox's Dtilt are all around 73 degrees instead of the wacky hit angles it had in Smash 4.
Pretty much what you just said about his D-Tilt in 4. It wouldn't be a good idea to have to worry about inconsistent hit angles, on a character that fast. That's why it's better to have moves that have a linear knockback, to better line up your follow ups. I was trying to point out, Zelda doesn't have similar stuff, so wouldn't benefit from an increase in speed, too much.

confirm or deny, but Zelda is not going to be killing people at like 20% because she'd be able to confirm lightning kicks and Farore's Wind, right? Those moves kill at like 80 to 90% give or take depending on the character's weight and where on the stage she is on.
I meant lower, when I said low. I didn't mean to imply she could KO at 20%.

I'm not seeing what's so easy about Zelda's falling Nair as a hit and kill confirm that others are more difficult to do or whatever. You're hitting with a move to confirm into another. Even if you're playing Ken or Ryu where you have to do the inputs for Shoryuken, it's still the same thing. Fox uses Nair as a neutral tool and getting hit by Nair to Up Smash at kill percents isn't something you can avoid easily. Same deal with Ike where his Nair covers a lot of space around him. There's also item confirms from Daisy, Peach, Toon Link, and young Link. The kid Links throw a bomb at their opponent in the air, if the opponent gets hit, they can get a Fair off of it. If the opponent doesn't, then they can avoid them or go for another option.
Well that's the thing though, all your examples have difficulty doing them, are situational, or the opponent can escape. If you recall, Smash 4 Nair, was a drag down meaning it was impossible to escape. It auto comboed and was a neutral tool, so wasn't very difficult to use. That was fine, because Zelda was a trash character, but mostly because everyone had similar combos. Top tiers had an entire flow chart of confirms, from low to high percent. The entire game was based around them and if you didn't have them, you would be fishing for kills at high percents and were generally considered low tier.

Ultimate I feel, is clearly moving away from all that, with the balloon knockback, and either removing combos or making them difficult, situational or able to be escaped from. That leads to the game being more balanced, since characters with an oppressive neutral and have difficulty KOing, can no longer have easy confirms, from safe setups. That allows their opponent to make up lost ground, while they are fishing for kills.

That was the big problem in 4, was that in addition to having an oppressive neutral, top tiers had kill confirms, from safe neutral tools, that could be spammed until they got a hit. It didn't matter if your character was supposed to have difficulty KOing as their trade off, you had a combo into a kill from a safe poke or neutral tool. That is no longer the case in Ultimate and you don't see many ladder combos or combos into KO moves. Most of the time you have to land the kill move in isolation, unless you are a designated combo character, and even then you have drawbacks like short range.

You won't get things like Cloud being able to combo into Finishing Touch from Up-air at mid percents or a Fair spike from Bair at low percents. He now has to land his KO moves in isolation most of the time. I'm fairly sure this was the intent and why those kill combos aren't going to come back. The whole point is to be creative now, in landing moves and I don't think it would be fair for only Zelda to keep tools, from an entirely different meta.

Things are much more balanced than before, and even the high and top tiers, have more variety in character type and move type. Those with oppressive neutrals and difficulty killing, actually have difficulty killing, and those without an oppressive neutral, but have good advantage or KO options(Zelda) can make back lost ground, when those oppressive neutrals, have to start fishing for KOs.



I think that's why there's an overall disconnect when it comes to people's leniency on Zelda's Ultimate design. They see the surface level buffs, which while improvement feel like first draft buffs (Oh Zelda can't Dins Free Fall? Just fix that, Phantom needs to give you more breathing room, okay do that) it's more of fixing what should've already been fixed ages ago, but she's still at square one.. Don't get me wrong I see more potential in this Zelda and I stand by it's the best one so far, but there needs to be more, but I think the real buffs would come from understanding the playstyle. It's actually weird how just a few design tweaks would solidify her viability (i.e. run speed, AC Two SH Kicks, D-tilt, Nair, faster grab even adjusting cooldown and start period for Dins) I'd do anything to have a foot sword again. lol
It's not just personal buffs, but Ultimate's new mechanics and changes as well. Disadvantage was very favorable in 4 and a lot of the burden was placed on those in advantage. Edgeguarding was notoriously difficult and defensive options were incredibly strong, to the point that it was a struggle to stay in advantage. That is a large part of why those kill combos I mentioned above were so important, because you needed easy and effective options to make any real headway. If you didn't have good combos and kill confirms(Fox, Bayo), good edguarding tools(Pika, Rosa), or just a plain good array of KO moves(Mario, Mewtwo), your opponents were living a very long time.

Ultimate flipped that around and now advantage is easy and disadvantage is difficult. Edgeguarding is easy and recovering is difficult. Now characters that lacked the ability to edgeguard or easily win neutral, can be viable, with the new changes.

Ganondorf got a new set of smashes, and while good on their own, when paired with the changes to disadvantage, they become very potent and oppressive tools. Greater difficulty getting back on stage, means he can trap people with these much easier, than if they were just used in isolation. This sends him from bottom tier, to at minimum high tier. And even if a character doesn't get too drastic a change to their moves, disadvantage being what it is will open up more opportunities than before.



Will do on the parrying.
Definitely do so. I feel like it is supposed to be the counter to the aerial changes, making them easily spammable. A good parry game, will shut down spam pretty quick and force them to think a little harder about their play.

Is it DI dependent? Because I've only sweetspotted very large characters. Never lighter ones. Do they have to be very close to you? I truthfully hardly use the move, because it feels like elevator, Dsmash, grab, etc. are just all better and more reliable. But, if there's an easy way to LK, let me know.
Truth be told, I don't really know myself. It's not exactly common that I do that, and training mode is pretty unreliable with these things. I did have a couple replays with examples, but I could only find one. It was on Mario at around 50%. I'm almost certain the other was on an FE character at 40% and hit them low enough, they landed early and accidentally made them cancel any aerials, which let me combo Fair. I wouldn't trust my memory, though. I think I KOed a Pichu at mid percents one time maybe.

As for an easy way to LK, I'm afraid that's going to have to come with practice. The sweet-spot is pretty generous and it can of course be done out of a run. So if you need to, use her dash to get into the correct position. Be aware, if you aren't already, that LK from a standing position will thrust her forward a little, so that needs to be taken into account when properly spacing. Try FH FF LK, that works pretty well and doesn't need as much precision as the standing version. I'd almost swear it's safe on shield doing it that way, if you hit with the sweet-spot. It at least, feels safer than the standing version.

And as for the stuff about the kicks... I mean, that's how they worked in Sm4sh. That's how they've always worked. With the exception of Melee, they've been weaker parts of her kit. You use them because she doesn't have any other options besides like nair. Yeah, they can kill super early, but they're also largely the reason why she can fall behind in most matches. If you take away d-throw -> kick combos at low %s, it's not very uncommon to see Zelda go entire matches landing 3 or fewer kicks, and that's simply not the way good aerials work. I've watched other Zeldas play, and sometimes I'll watch an entire match where they don't get a kick.
It's normal to only get a few per match. I mean that would be like expecting someone land to Ganon's Fsmash several times a match. They are somewhat YOLO KO moves that are extremely powerful, so it wouldn't be good to be able to spam them. And yeah, fair enough on it being weird for an aerial, but that does happen sometimes. I'm still not used to Ganon's Up-Tilt being the YOLO attack and Up-Smash being the relatively quick anti-air. Usually it's the other way around and I sometimes muscle memory Up-Tilt and leave myself open.

They're great OoS and have low startup, yeah. They're still not good aerials. It's her signature move. I really don't think allowing you to auto-cancel them is the worst idea ever when she's already not combo-oriented.
Exactly. I think having a auto-cancel window would bump Zelda up a tier, that and run speed.
I don't think that would be a terrible thing balance wise, but I'm not sure that it will do what you hope it will. The problem isn't really the lag, it's the sour-spot. It's not safe on hit or shield and the actual move itself, lasts quite a while before Zelda touches the ground. It thrusting Zelda into the opponent, further compounds that problem. That means she is vulnerable to attack before the AC window would even happen, so you would still have it being risky. I think it works best as a punish or with a read, so you shouldn't be throwing it out unless you know it's going to hit, and at that point there isn't really any point worrying about its endlag, unless it's done on fast fallers at low percents, which isn't safe on hit, even with the sweet-spot.

People paint the problem of Zelda having the same aeriels with her LKs, but Villager and Isabelle's Bair and Fair are literally the same move, the real problem comes with if they are they same move they need to be good to justify their similarity.
Zelda having the same move for two of her aerials and them being situational or at least very punishing if you mess up with them is restricting for her. Nair is her most versatile aerial, but that's a lot to force onto one aerial.
On the flip side, having them both be the same, means she is able to quickly take advantage of any opportunities, without needing to RAR Bair, and potentially telegraph what she is about to do. Her opponent will have to watch for it from both sides, instead of the one, like with Wolf's Bair.
 

stingywizard

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#44
Cross/Reposting this from another thread.


Here are my wishes for updates to Zelda in 3.0. I'm not sure these would perfectly achieve my goal, which is to enable some of Zelda's moves to be better in disadvantage without improving them in the advantage state.

1. Fair vs. Bair
Fair and Bair are the same move. They are high-risk, high-reward though. Those types of moves are harder to just throw out as pressure. If one of these (either one really) was adjusted to have a large sweet-spot and smaller sour-spot, but also had the killing power and damage output of the sweet-spot reduced then Zelda would have one risky version for when you want to take the risk for the kill, and one safer version for when you just want to apply pressure.

The final three ideas I have are all about taking moves which I believe are amazing in the advantage state but terrible in disadvantage, and tweaking them so that they become useful in disadvantage without improving their advantage state play.

2. Din's Fire
This move is great when the opponent is off the stage. When Lucina is rushing you down with aerials it's not so good. It all comes down to the rather-large minimum distance that it travels before a hurtbox comes out. If this was adjusted to be much closer to Zelda, even if it only dealt a small amount of damage (relative to how close it is to Zelda), then it could be used in disadvantage to keep characters at bay.

3. Phantom Slash
Another amazing move when you are ahead that is simply too slow when you are behind. If the animation of Zelda pointing, which she is stuck in when firing the Phantom early, was removed I believe the move would be a significantly better tool for disadvantage and neutral. This would not speed up the move, but would allow Zelda to react faster when she had to fire it early due to pressure, letting her block or use Utilt if somebody is jumping over the partially-charged phantom. A full removal of this lag may be too far, though. Somebody mentioned that it is there for characters without reflectors can punish bad spacing and I agree with that idea. I do think that currently the space necessary for good spacing against a lot of the cast is too restrictive. Maybe only a slight reduction in the lag would be sufficient, allowing Zelda to use it in more situations.
Most characters with powerful, charge-up projectiles are able to cancel them into shield or roll and continue charging later. Zelda cannot store a partial charge, and cannot cancel it shield or roll. I think that this change would keep the flavor of the move much the same while enabling its use when Zelda is behind.

4. Farore's Wind
This is a great move. Powerful and fast, yet punishable if blocked. I would only want to enable its use as an escape-from-pressure option, and not increase its ability as an offensive tool. My suggestion is that the end-lag is drastically reduced only when you do not hit anything. This, with something similar to re-grab timeout to prevent spamming, would leave the move as punishable if it was shielded, and would enable Zelda to teleport away from pressure without immediately being rushed down again before she can do anything.

[EDIT]
I said Fair vs Dair originally. It should have been Fair vs. Bair.
 

Lacrimosa

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#45
The more I play with her, the more I notice some really huge flaws with her moves. People may say that you need to space better but I feel like the sour-spots of bair/fair have really low rewards. These moves are already hard to hit but given the fact that they don't knock the opponent back is really unnerving. It's just making them flinch a bit but they a free grab or other punish. I don't think changing the sweet-spots is that necessary but I would like to take that but that's a much bigger buff than a little more knockback on the sourspot.

Also her grab should be a bit faster. I don't know how fast other grabs are but this one feels really slow.
Some other stuff may include that Din's fire travels faster and/or let it detonate a bit closer to Zelda and let her having less endlag after sending out an unfinished phantom.

I don't know how much of these sound realistic or even good but I think an adjustment to fair/bair is needed.
 

StoicPhantom

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#46
The more I play with her, the more I notice some really huge flaws with her moves. People may say that you need to space better but I feel like the sour-spots of bair/fair have really low rewards. These moves are already hard to hit but given the fact that they don't knock the opponent back is really unnerving. It's just making them flinch a bit but they a free grab or other punish. I don't think changing the sweet-spots is that necessary but I would like to take that but that's a much bigger buff than a little more knockback on the sourspot.

Also her grab should be a bit faster. I don't know how fast other grabs are but this one feels really slow.
Some other stuff may include that Din's fire travels faster and/or let it detonate a bit closer to Zelda and let her having less endlag after sending out an unfinished phantom.

I don't know how much of these sound realistic or even good but I think an adjustment to fair/bair is needed.
If you think about it, having an attack that is the equivalent to a Ganondorf Fsmash, that's not much slower than our jab, can be used nearly anywhere in nearly any situation, busts through recoveries with super armor like Snake's or K. Rool's killing them stupid early, is fairly safe on shield when fast falling(sweet-spot), is kind of broken. I don't think the sour-spots were meant to give rewards, but to balance the move out by adding some risk to it. Otherwise, Zelda could be spamming it left, right, and center and get massive rewards on it. You could make the argument Marth gets to do that, but his sour-spots aren't that safe, especially on shield and his aerial sweet-spots don't kill anywhere near that early, only his Fsmash really.

I agree that her grab needs to be fixed, although I think it's more range than speed. Her grab has always been more of a punish than a neutral tool, they just nerfed the range quite a bit. I would also like it to be more consistent, as I've had it go through my opponent several times. I don't know if that is a bug or what, but the ridiculous endlag leaves me wide open when that happens.

The others are interesting and I think could help close some gaps in her spacing.
 

SoniCraft

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#47
I agree that her grab needs to be fixed, although I think it's more range than speed. Her grab has always been more of a punish than a neutral tool, they just nerfed the range quite a bit. I would also like it to be more consistent, as I've had it go through my opponent several times. I don't know if that is a bug or what, but the ridiculous endlag leaves me wide open when that happens.
I don't know if range would help her as much as speed. I was playing a Greninja yesterday and her grab was so slow that the Greninja could whiff nair right beside me and still have time to spotdodge Zelda's grab. It felt very frustrating. I could dash attack instead, but then that's staling a really solid kill option.
 

StoicPhantom

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#49
I don't know if range would help her as much as speed. I was playing a Greninja yesterday and her grab was so slow that the Greninja could whiff nair right beside me and still have time to spotdodge Zelda's grab. It felt very frustrating. I could dash attack instead, but then that's staling a really solid kill option.
I checked the difference on range between Ultimate and 4 and I guess there wasn't as big of a discrepancy as I thought. Although Ultimate has an A and B version listed that does have a significant difference, so maybe that was my problem? I'm not really sure what that means.

As for the speed, even if we revert them back to how they were, you're still looking at around 10 frames. At that point you might as well do an Up-B or LK instead. Even the endlag on her grabs is significant enough there won't be much of a difference on whiff between those options. I generally only use grab as an anti-shield, so speed isn't really an issue for me and I think an Up-B or LK on whiffs would be a more optimal punish.

As for Greninja, you might have to feint and bait an option from him instead. Aerials aren't really easy to punish, laggy grab or not, so some trickery is often in order.
 

Lacrimosa

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#50
Is that even a nerf we got? I mean, on paper it is but if you shield the phantom you'd get grabbed and the other version of the knight aren't that harmful to a shield anyway.
Good thing the really important stuff was left untouched/not nerfed.
 

BJN39

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#51
Yea, looking like another patch with nothing changing for Zelda (except the notes shield stun or damage reductions) according to patch notes. I don’t really see it as a nerf when everything else is getting nerfed the same way (but apparently din’s was untouched! There’s a victory!)

Considering the flack Zelda gets for her “optimal play style” (aka lame play wins and it’s easy to abuse that online) I think it’s just a positive that she didn’t get nerfed in a substantial way. That’s something I never thought I’d have to worry about for Zelda.......

Regardless I’ll be doing some checking if there are any hidden changes tomorrow prolly
 

Codebox

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#52
At this point I'd take them giving us Dins freefall back as a buff would just call it a day. Don't forget to tact on more endlag to grab while we're at it. :D I mean the day Zelda gets "buffed" is the day she's the developers care. On the other hand I can enjoy Joker.

tenor.gif
 
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Xellros

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#55
Does Dair feel any different to ya'll? I feel like the sour spot hitbox increased or something.. I landed a couple spikes while being literally inside of my opponents. Bah. I'll look at it tomorrow when I get off.
 

StoicPhantom

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#56
Is that even a nerf we got? I mean, on paper it is but if you shield the phantom you'd get grabbed and the other version of the knight aren't that harmful to a shield anyway.
Good thing the really important stuff was left untouched/not nerfed.
It doesn't feel any different to me, I think that was only shield damage. There might not be any more Phantom > LK shield breaks, but neutral should still remain the same, as far as I know. And I agree on the second thing.

Does Dair feel any different to ya'll? I feel like the sour spot hitbox increased or something.. I landed a couple spikes while being literally inside of my opponents. Bah. I'll look at it tomorrow when I get off.
I don't feel like this is any different either. It seems to be spiking at the same window.

I don't really feel like Zelda changed much for the most part. I did feel like her aerial mobility might have increased a little and she falls a little faster, though. Not enough to be definitive without a side-by-side comparison, but enough that I drifted too close to the C4 or a little past the space I wanted to a lot today. Things felt a little off in general, but that could also have been from the lag being much better than it normally is.
 

Brinzy

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#57
I didn't feel any differences besides the Phantom shield damage thing. I've missed two shield breaks since then because of the lack of pressure. Otherwise, she feels exactly the same to me.
 

Ysor

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#58
After having played Zelda from launch I think she could benefit from better frame data, of course that would be "out of character" so my ideal changes would be as follows
Fair & Bair : auto cancel,Weak hit pushes further(sorta like weak knee minus the tripping because it does that for some reason trips)
Nair : Bigger and Drag down(since almost all multi hit attack consistently chain hits but you can drop SH Nair on a standing character)
Up smash : Intangible arm(solidifies it as an Anti air plus which it can be kinda inconsistent about)
Din's Fire : Make the earliest detonation closer to Zelda, reduce end lag in the air
Phantom Slash : Fix the hitbox(this move is perfect save for that)
Grab : either make it bigger or faster
Movement : Higher initial dash speed(just a little bit)
With that she would probably work better, I know I hate Nair being so small and not connecting well. That being said Ultimate feels like it was balanced with Swords as top priority and sure you could say just parry but the frame advantage isn't all too good. I mean I win with her, but I gotta try way harder than say a Wolf or [Fire emblem character] player. Also Sakarai said no more up tilt combos but like every newcomer can up tilt you to ~50 which is funny to me.
 
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#59
After having played Zelda from launch I think she could benefit from better frame data, of course that would be "out of character" so my ideal changes would be as follows
Fair & Bair : auto cancel,Weak hit pushes further(sorta like weak knee minus the tripping because it does that for some reason trips)
Nair : Bigger and Drag down(since almost all multi hit attack consistently chain hits but you can drop SH Nair on a standing character)
Up smash : Intangible arm(solidifies it as an Anti air plus which it can be kinda inconsistent about)
Din's Fire : Make the earliest detonation closer to Zelda, reduce end lag in the air
Phantom Slash : Fix the hitbox(this move is perfect save for that)
Grab : either make it bigger or faster
Movement : Higher initial dash speed(just a little bit)
With that she would probably work better, I know I hate Nair being so small and not connecting well. That being said Ultimate feels like it was balanced with Swords as top priority and sure you could say just parry but the frame advantage isn't all too good. I mean I win with her, but I gotta try way harder than say a Wolf or [Fire emblem character] player. Also Sakarai said no more up tilt combos but like every newcomer can up tilt you to ~50 which is funny to me.
Din's Fire : Make the earliest detonation closer to Zelda, reduce end lag in the air
Phantom Slash : Fix the hitbox(this move is perfect save for that)
Grab : either make it bigger or faster


These are absolutely needed to me, especially the fire detonation.
 

Yashill

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#60
Din's Fire : Make the earliest detonation closer to Zelda, reduce end lag in the air
Phantom Slash : Fix the hitbox(this move is perfect save for that)
Grab : either make it bigger or faster


These are absolutely needed to me, especially the fire detonation.
For anyone who hasn't seen it... a work around for the grab issue would be instant pivot grabbing. It works at a large range. If done right, it will snag Falcon out of a grounded falcon kick.
 

Ysor

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#61
For anyone who hasn't seen it... a work around for the grab issue would be instant pivot grabbing. It works at a large range. If done right, it will snag Falcon out of a grounded falcon kick.
Thought about adding this in because I love me some pivot grabs. Good advice all around.
 

Lacrimosa

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#64
Alright ladies, we've got a new patch coming within the next week that promises to desynch your replays, which usually points to gameplay alterations. Let's get ready to find zero Zelda changes again rumble!
I hear M2K saying it'll release tomorrow?
Anyway, don't know if that's true but we won't see anything for her.
Maybe a nerf to her Final Smash but that doesn't make her competitively any less viable :p.
 

Ffamran

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#65
I hear M2K saying it'll release tomorrow?
Anyway, don't know if that's true but we won't see anything for her.
Maybe a nerf to her Final Smash but that doesn't make her competitively any less viable :p.
The SSBUBot is a counter from what I remember, but the patch date needs to be official before it starts a countdown from the looks of it: https://smash.oatmealdome.me/popup_news/2029/en-US/.

There is planned maintenance on the 30th and 31st that affects online play of certain software, so it could be possible for it to drop tomorrow or Friday: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/netinfo/en_US/index.html. Otherwise, no idea.

Calling it now: Zelda will become 1 unit heavier. Enjoy your predicted buff, gorls. :p
 
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BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
Moderator
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
5,041
Location
The Zelda Boards
#69
It gets better: the patch focused but on fixing a mountain of multi hitting moves and Zelda’s entire kit was still completely untouched... LOL

Did some preliminary testing an no shadow changes I could find either; no FAFs, or obvious range/angle changes. NAir specifically appears to have the same angles/kb S M H.

No nerfs too I guess.
 

Ysor

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 29, 2016
Messages
8
#70
It gets better: the patch focused but on fixing a mountain of multi hitting moves and Zelda’s entire kit was still completely untouched... LOL

Did some preliminary testing an no shadow changes I could find either; no FAFs, or obvious range/angle changes. NAir specifically appears to have the same angles/kb S M H.

No nerfs too I guess.
The hell! Nair has linking issues but whatever lets make pikachu's grab bigger
 

Rickster

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3,827
Location
Faerghus
Switch FC
2713-1285-8029
#71
I'm starting to think that we need to be a bit more vocal about Nair not working properly. The fact that she was left out of this patch makes me think that the devs don't actually know her Nair needs help lol
 
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Codebox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
66
#72
At this point I think a more vocal stance is in order. Either the dev team has a serious vendetta against Zelda or just don't know the actual problem. But I really want Nair and D-tilt fixes. Also I'd like for a grab that doesn't suck please. It feels like Smash 4 Puff all over again.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#73
Well, at least she didn't get nerfed again. Ice Climbers getting their desync nerfed has me worried about the future of Phantom displacement. I'm alright with her continuing to fly under the radar, if it means she won't get any unnecessary nerfs. Also, let's not forget about indirect buffs, stemming from other characters getting nerfed.

Lucina's Fair and Fsmash getting nerfed, means Zelda can live longer and it's not as easy to trap her in disadvantage or edgeguard. No more dying at 100 from random Fsmashes center stage and I lived a max rage Fair at the ledge at around 120, on a battlefield stage. I don't have enough experience yet to say how easy it is to DI out of Fair stuff, but I think Zelda can now land at low percents, instead of being carried across the stage.

Wolf's Dsmash nerf, doesn't seem to have really changed much. However, his projectile is now slow enough, Zelda can keep dashing and parrying to close in, without needing to jump or use Nayru. This was Wolf's only real advantage over Zelda, so I'm thinking this might become at least slightly in Zelda's favor. The buff to his reflector won't have any real impact in this MU.

Haven't played Peach yet, but can confirm Side-B is laggy now, so she can't pressure Zelda's shield for free anymore nor will Side-B be a get out of jail free card anymore. Fair also got a decent knockback reduction, so Zelda will live longer. Might help me with constantly being beaten by a hair, due to that pesky Fair. I don't believe Fsmash getting a buff will be a problem.

I don't know about Olimar or Pichu yet, but their hurtboxs being larger doesn't seem to have changed anything, from my brief labbing in training. I don't think this will be significant. Overall, from all the characters I've played that got major buffs, it doesn't seem to have changed the MU, other than some being a little more annoying. Haven't really played Bayo or Lucario yet or Diddy as Zelda, but I don't see those changing anything.

So I think Zelda came away pretty good from the meta change. Some top tier MUs became easier and I don't see any new threats yet.
 

Codebox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
66
#74
Well, at least she didn't get nerfed again. Ice Climbers getting their desync nerfed has me worried about the future of Phantom displacement. I'm alright with her continuing to fly under the radar, if it means she won't get any unnecessary nerfs. Also, let's not forget about indirect buffs, stemming from other characters getting nerfed.

Lucina's Fair and Fsmash getting nerfed, means Zelda can live longer and it's not as easy to trap her in disadvantage or edgeguard. No more dying at 100 from random Fsmashes center stage and I lived a max rage Fair at the ledge at around 120, on a battlefield stage. I don't have enough experience yet to say how easy it is to DI out of Fair stuff, but I think Zelda can now land at low percents, instead of being carried across the stage.

Wolf's Dsmash nerf, doesn't seem to have really changed much. However, his projectile is now slow enough, Zelda can keep dashing and parrying to close in, without needing to jump or use Nayru. This was Wolf's only real advantage over Zelda, so I'm thinking this might become at least slightly in Zelda's favor. The buff to his reflector won't have any real impact in this MU.

Haven't played Peach yet, but can confirm Side-B is laggy now, so she can't pressure Zelda's shield for free anymore nor will Side-B be a get out of jail free card anymore. Fair also got a decent knockback reduction, so Zelda will live longer. Might help me with constantly being beaten by a hair, due to that pesky Fair. I don't believe Fsmash getting a buff will be a problem.

I don't know about Olimar or Pichu yet, but their hurtboxs being larger doesn't seem to have changed anything, from my brief labbing in training. I don't think this will be significant. Overall, from all the characters I've played that got major buffs, it doesn't seem to have changed the MU, other than some being a little more annoying. Haven't really played Bayo or Lucario yet or Diddy as Zelda, but I don't see those changing anything.

So I think Zelda came away pretty good from the meta change. Some top tier MUs became easier and I don't see any new threats yet.
While some top tiers are getting nerfs Lucina's options still outweigh Zelda by a lot. Even through range alone. (Maybe this just stems from my hating to fight Lucina in general) Zelda also isn't the heaviest character and dies pretty early. Though it is nice that Pichu isn't as free against Zelda through small hurtbox size alone, which boxed out most of her options. At the same time though not having any changes for a consistent period of time isn't good either, especially if those below her somehow get buffed then she'll have even less of a chance in the meta. Remember Sm4sh Jiggs who got nothing during the entire game's lifespan? We don't need that for Zelda considering this will be her only chance to mean anything otherwise only a move moverhaul will save her.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,051
Location
Germany
#75
Well, at least she didn't get nerfed again. Ice Climbers getting their desync nerfed has me worried about the future of Phantom displacement. I'm alright with her continuing to fly under the radar, if it means she won't get any unnecessary nerfs. Also, let's not forget about indirect buffs, stemming from other characters getting nerfed.

Lucina's Fair and Fsmash getting nerfed, means Zelda can live longer and it's not as easy to trap her in disadvantage or edgeguard. No more dying at 100 from random Fsmashes center stage and I lived a max rage Fair at the ledge at around 120, on a battlefield stage. I don't have enough experience yet to say how easy it is to DI out of Fair stuff, but I think Zelda can now land at low percents, instead of being carried across the stage.

Wolf's Dsmash nerf, doesn't seem to have really changed much. However, his projectile is now slow enough, Zelda can keep dashing and parrying to close in, without needing to jump or use Nayru. This was Wolf's only real advantage over Zelda, so I'm thinking this might become at least slightly in Zelda's favor. The buff to his reflector won't have any real impact in this MU.

Haven't played Peach yet, but can confirm Side-B is laggy now, so she can't pressure Zelda's shield for free anymore nor will Side-B be a get out of jail free card anymore. Fair also got a decent knockback reduction, so Zelda will live longer. Might help me with constantly being beaten by a hair, due to that pesky Fair. I don't believe Fsmash getting a buff will be a problem.

I don't know about Olimar or Pichu yet, but their hurtboxs being larger doesn't seem to have changed anything, from my brief labbing in training. I don't think this will be significant. Overall, from all the characters I've played that got major buffs, it doesn't seem to have changed the MU, other than some being a little more annoying. Haven't really played Bayo or Lucario yet or Diddy as Zelda, but I don't see those changing anything.

So I think Zelda came away pretty good from the meta change. Some top tier MUs became easier and I don't see any new threats yet.
I would be wary about Lucario, though.
These changes sound really good for him, especially the bigger grab range on his side B with high enough aura could prove as deadly for most character and Zelda isn't really the fastest. If the Lucario plays smart then he can grab her and that move will kill at very low percents.
However, it seems that Aurasphere will become a bigger part in Lucario's game and that means Nayru will gain more significance in this MU and that's always a good thing. Every projectile buff is also buffing reflectors in one way or the other. Lucario, while being faster than her shouldn't really be able to punish Nayru by baiting an Aurasphere. Or maybe I'm overestimating Nayru in that scenarios but it helps against Samus and Mewtu who have a very similar projectile.
Looking forward to how this MU will develop. I didn't fear Lucario before, but that can change now.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
872
Location
Alvarado, TX
Switch FC
3169-5182-0524
#76
I'm starting to think that we need to be a bit more vocal about Nair not working properly. The fact that she was left out of this patch makes me think that the devs don't actually know her Nair needs help lol
more like the devs don't even think people care that much about the character

i mean look at the competitive scene...how often do you see A Zelda make it near the top?

even Online zelda players are quite rare
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#79
I did manage to play a Diddy who seemed like they migh t know what they're are doing today. He can kill now and it's more difficult to edgeguard, but the MU doesn't seem to have fundamentally changed. I also didn't see that Peach lost her kill throw, so I think this will be a very beneficial nerf for Zelda and this might end up in her favor or at least even.

While some top tiers are getting nerfs Lucina's options still outweigh Zelda by a lot. Even through range alone. (Maybe this just stems from my hating to fight Lucina in general) Zelda also isn't the heaviest character and dies pretty early. Though it is nice that Pichu isn't as free against Zelda through small hurtbox size alone, which boxed out most of her options. At the same time though not having any changes for a consistent period of time isn't good either, especially if those below her somehow get buffed then she'll have even less of a chance in the meta. Remember Sm4sh Jiggs who got nothing during the entire game's lifespan? We don't need that for Zelda considering this will be her only chance to mean anything otherwise only a move moverhaul will save her.
Well, we'll see what Smash'N'Splash brings. Ven managed to get in Division 1 with the big boys and I'm confident Mystearica can make it out of Division 3. I'm not sure if they're using the new patch there or not, but if they aren't and Zelda still does well, then these changes will only serve to be beneficial.

I would be wary about Lucario, though.
I can see that, that forward throw is ridiculous, but I don't have much Lucario experience period. Nayru will reflect those properly, but can be baited if he cancels his charge.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,051
Location
Germany
#80
Tbh. I think this patch is VERY in her favor.
Pichu, one, if not the worst, MU got significantly worse. Bigger hurtbox, more self-harm, fTilt doesn't kill until 125-130 at BF ledge. Those are use changes. Sure, Pichu still has the combos and bAir still kills but that's pretty much Pichu's only tool and not only in this MU. But given how light Pichu is and how delicat Zelda's sweetboxes are, I think this will benefit her a lot. Phantom also wins in significance here as well.
Paisy's turnip pull nerf is also good for properly setting up phantom. It's "only" by 3 frames afaik but that's still a lot. Fair and bThrow kill later. Overall, this MU should go at least even now and isn't that much in Paisy's favor anymore.
Olimar was already a winning MU for her and now it's gotten even better. Bigger hurtbox, Nayru can poke shield easier and reflects Pikmin. Off-stage play is also much easier because of the recovery nerf and Zelda can go really deep off-stage because of the best teleport recovery in the game (only for recovery, though :3).

The buffs to Diddy...we'll see. I already said in another topic that we'll definitely get some Ven vs. Dakpo action. That's much better than talking in theory.

Good patch for her :3.
 
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