Zelda Development Zone

[Needsmorespin]

A thread dedicated to the development of Zelda in P:M

 

[Needsmorespin]

let your voices be heard, this thread is all about ironing out Zelda's flaws and issues, also me and Zhime will be happy to answer any questions you have

 

[Zerudahime]

Thanks for the volunteering Spin..... >,>........
I don't often come here or post...only when I really think something is necessary but I guess I can watch this thread every once in a while.

 

[Needsmorespin]

sorry, but glad you can pitch in

 

[otheusrex]

I think that zelda's usmash is a little too unsafe on short characters. It kinda sucks to have mk be in range but just too short to usmash when he's on the ground. I know it's one of the advantages of being short, but I don't think mk really needs the ability to be under zelda's usmash without crouching, even jiggly puff can't do that.

I'm suggesting extending usmash's hitbox downwards just enough to catch mk when he's standing next to zelda, but not enough to catch him when he's crouching.

I did some research in practice mode; the only character who is too short for zelda's usmash without crouching is metaknight, and here are the characters who can avoid being hit at all by her usmash by crouching (this was done by standing as close as possible without actually being on top of the other character):

Squirtle, Pikachu, GnW, Snake, Sheik, Ivy, Zss, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Luigi, Mario, and Ness.​

Whereas, here are the characters who by crouching can avoid all but the last hit of her usmash, which doesn't launch them upwards so they can easily punish her usmash on crouch:

Diddy, Lucario, Sonic, Ike, and Peach.​

​

That's just over half the cast who can easily punish her usmash by crouching, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but maybe worth considering (shrug). I'm just suggesting having her usmash hitbox extend downwards just low enough to catch metaknight when he's standing, but I realize this would also affect other characters who can crouch underneath it.

 

[Zerudahime]

you arent really supposed to use an anti air or usmash in general unless its a whiff punish...the hitboxes on usmash would not make sense to hit someone on the ground like that when they are underneath her and shes waving her hand...in the air. Again, usmash is a situational move like the rest of her moveset. try maybe grabbing instead or using a kick on those characters. Dsmash is way better and less punishable. usmash is arguably one of her most punishable moves aside from nayrus love on ground. If we eliminate those weaknesses, she will have next to none that keep her in range of being hit. We wouldnt want something like that to happen bc shed be sawnikkkkkkk xD

 

[BJN39]

Well, I'm not one of the two "answerers" but....

While you make a valid point, and I agree I HATED missing with usmash in brawl.
But Zelda (and most characters in general.) Needs to be played with thought to win, and buffing usmash so you can just thoughtlessly run in and usmash is not what I think of as a necessary buff. (It wouldn't help/work more anyways.) Besides, changing the hitbox just to hit meta knight wouldn't be a good reason either.

Also, people generally can't crouch fast enough in reaction to dodge usmash, just something that popped into my mind.

EDIT; whoops ninja'd

 

[Zerudahime]

@BJN anyone can answer, I think spin just wanted to throw it out there that I would be watching the thread <3

 

[BJN39]

Oh, okay good. I'll probably watch the thread, so I'll help if I can.

Also...

"I'm too slow" xD

 

[otheusrex]

....really?

 

[Blondie.]

lmao! I feel your pain otheusrex!

I generally don't like throwing my opinions out there because I trust the PMBR, but I'll give a few opinions this time because Zelda is in desperate need of some help.

There is literally no reason why Zelda's usmash shouldn't hit on her body all the way to the ground. It wouldn't make it broken at all, it would just make it more useful in certain situations.

It is completely ridiculous when I hit fox while he's standing, then he holds down on reaction, which causes him to ASDI down to the ground and crouch cancel the stray hits of usmash, then he throws out that pretty little blue hexagon, all completely on reaction.

Also, Zelda is supposed to be a "defensive" character, yet she has no good oos option. Doesn't that seem like an odd character design? Her only "good" oos option is usmash, but it has pitiful horizontal range, and as I said before, many smaller characters can simply just ASDI and crouch cancel on reaction. Ironically, most of the characters she needs a good oos option against the most are the fast characters, who tend to be small, and can crouch under her usmash. And characters like fox, who are supposed to be offensice characters, have WAY better oos options like shine.

Zhime said dmash is a better option than usmash....... that is just dumb. You can't combo out of dsmash, you can't use it oos, it's low damage and knockback. Why should usmash suck so much that it's worse than dsmash. Dsmash is just supposed to be a fast attack that you can throw out when you're unsure of what punish you can get, so you do a quick dsmash that hits on both sides. Ya usmash is more punishable, and that is exactly why it should yield more rewards.

I don't want to see usmash be some ridiculously OP option, but it should hit all over her body to the ground, and I would like to see it have slightly more horizontal range so that you can use it oos more safely.

Overall, I hope Zelda gets some more design attention. I love the design of her character, but she doesn't have good enough tools to hang with the majority of the cast. I don't feel like she is terrible (probably B tier) but she is certainly in need of some more tools to help her out. Even Reflex just put her in his bottom 5 characters, and he is an incredibly smart player.

It's dumb when you hear a lead designer say, "just work around her obvious flaws". I mean, that's the approach I take when I'm practicing with her, but that's not what a design motto should be. I know that she shouldn't ever have one over powering option in any situation, but her usmash is practially only useful when it is combo'd into. At this point the competitve Zelda metagame is pretty much use lots of neutral B's and lightning kicks.

I'll stick to Zelda no matter what (like I said, I love her design and I think the PMBR has done great with her so far) but I would like to see her get some more polish for her to be able to keep up with the top tiers.

 

[Zerudahime]

Am I missing something or does Zelda not wave her hand in the air?
There is no active animation where she brings her hand up for the move visually.
There is no visual cue for the move to even hit that way. If there was one, I may agree.
I never said anything about OoS options. I agree she lacks in that area however, OoS lightning kicks are a good option and upb startup hitbox can start juggles but she never had amazing OoS options like say Bowser currently does.

She is defensive but also passive aggressive, and she can zone. I think youre severely underestimating her power level.
Dsmash is a better move on those characters especially the back hitbox.
polish=/=dirty hitboxes that hit on the ground when someones arm waves in the air.

I'm not putting my opinions out there at this point. I clearly have no merit and havent mained the character before PM came out so...........lol.
Maybe Ryoko can respond in this thread more as well.

 

[otheusrex]

I'm starting to hear some arguments I find more reasonable, so I don't want to continue to argue about things. But first, I do want to make it clear that initially I was frustrated that my idea was dismissed because of some silly reasons. For starters, I was only suggesting an increase in size for the lower hit box enough to catch metaknight in his standing position right next to zelda, but not if he crouched. If you examine the difference in height between his standing position and crouch, you'll see it's minuscule, so the size increase I was proposing would only be a few pixels. When people were saying that my idea would lead zelda down the path towards 2.5 sonic I was taken aback how someone could make such an outrageous claim based on a size difference of a few pixels.

Moving on from that, I'm glad people have brought up usmash not being great out of shield since I was going to do that next. The utility of upsmash in general seems to be lacking. Currently, it's best as an anti-air move, but in many ways utilt is a better move for that. Utilt has superior disjoint and range, making it safer. I'll concede that usmash as an anti-air is easier to use since it's faster, and the hitboxes last longer, but the weaker (yet still strong) kb of usmash, which is supposed to be better for combo-ing doesn't really give you many followup options aside from another upsmash, or maybe jumping into a nair. Another advantage of usmash is that you can use it directly out of shield, but this isn't particularly useful with a primarily anti-air move, since shielding isn't all that useful of a strategy to avoid/counter aerial approaches. I don't have my heart set on usmash hitting lower necessarily, but I do think the benefits of having usmash changed to be useful for something that she's lacking in (like OoS options) would outweigh the loss of a second anti-air move.

 

[Rizner]

I like usmash where it's at - it isn't meant for a ground game and should be, imo, made to hit a standing character. I do, however, think that she needs horizontal oos options aside from jumping away and kicking. Changing another move ( maybe angled ftilt, jab, new down b, down tilt?) to work better oos would be a better approach. And for the standing mk thing, I'd say make mk height the same as others so he isn't under it. weird he's the only one that short


OH, also, hey up air. What a re thoughts on modification so if you're hit after the first lightning type pay, the fire still goes off? It's sad to trade uair to a dair and they only get hot with the tiny pay because the rest was interrupted. Super armor would be nice, but probably way too much of a buff. Would think that just a guaranteed fire after startup even if you're hit would be great.

 

[BJN39]

Actually, I like that up air idea. (if I'm reading it right.)

For instance if the fireball was confirmed to always appear if the move makes it to frame 14 (the start of the electric hitbox) so then even if you land or get hit it'll still poof. Since it would only be a couple frames before the fireball would normally appear, it doesn't seem too silly.

Just a logic background for this change, see brawl side b. or imagine> if you already started shooting the magic for a poof, if you got interrupted after you already shot the magic, would it just stop?

 

[GodAtHand]

Posting to mention that I also think Zelda's UpSmash needs a little something. UpTilt pretty much outclasses it every way now besides speed. It's fast but doesn't have enough range to be effective anti-air in most situations leaving other moves more useful. Maybe make Zelda crouch while she uses it? That way it could hit standing shorter characters from the front and back and it could also screw up the timing for people trying to attack her from the air making it a more effective anti-air. Also, Jazz Slide.

Edit: I also think her DownAir needs something. The sweetspot is great but whenever you hit the sourspot it's way too easy to punish Zelda and you can punish her hard. I don't think hitting with a move (even if it is a sourspot) should ever result in getting hard punished. Not sure how to fix it but with Zelda's air game being so linear having the only move that covers below her be so bad is rough.

 

[BJN39]

Posting to mention that I also think Zelda's UpSmash needs a little something. UpTilt pretty much outclasses it every way now besides speed. It's fast but doesn't have enough range to be effective anti-air in most situations leaving other moves more useful. Maybe make Zelda crouch while she uses it? That way it could hit standing shorter characters from the front and back and it could also screw up the timing for people trying to attack her from the air making it a more effective anti-air. Also, Jazz Slide.

Edit: I also think her DownAir needs something. The sweetspot is great but whenever you hit the sourspot it's way too easy to punish Zelda and you can punish her hard. I don't think hitting with a move (even if it is a sourspot) should ever result in getting hard punished. Not sure how to fix it but with Zelda's air game being so linear having the only move that covers below her be so bad is rough.

Just my thoughts. ~v

Zelda's Usmash (like her Uthrow) Is a slightly more situational use and works better in certain MUs. For example, landing this against any slightly heavy character more easily guarantees a good followup because of the better angle. It also does more damage, and is more mobile because you can do it from a run. But yeah I know what you mean about it, it's been a common complaint subject about zelda in this thread. I wouldn't hold my breath on this move getting changed much, it works fine already and in comparison to Utilt.

About down air, it's kinda part of her Melee design (I know, I know...) that she has trouble when directly above her opponent. Honestly, zelda shouldn't be above her opponents in that way anyways. You're using it at your own risk, hitting with any of her sourspots is inherently worse, it's a zelda thing. Just don't miss...lol
Dair may be her worst aerial.... but it's definitley not bad IMO. IDK I'm kinda rambling about it now... > _ <

 

[Juushichi]

Usmash is why Zelda vs Falco is only 45-55.

 

[Wavebuster]

Against someone who likes to stay in their shield, try SH Dairing them.

As for Usmash, being a frame 5 attack usable from shield gives it a very important niche. It's not exactly abusable but it's pretty far from bad.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I think that when you respawn you should be able to teledash off that floating platform. It's just annoying otherwise.

 

[Squii The Fish]

Came up with some idea's a while ago and while i'm no game designer I thought I would at least throw these idea's out there. I am not exactly a frame wizard so sorry if some idea's come out a little vague. A lot of these idea would probably need to be tested to see how they affect the whole game but here we go...

Added hitstun

I do love zelda and I do main her but I feel she needs to be a little more high risk/high reward. I don't think tacking on a bit of extra hit stun onto zelda would necessarily be a bad thing for project m as a whole. Characters like sonic and Metaknight might eat her up, but a lot of her moves hit like a tank so I don't think making her combo bait would be unreasonable.

Manually Detonating Din's Fire
This has probably been suggested before. Din's fire is probably the best zoning option in the game, putting a little extra shenanigans on it would be pretty sick. I think a great way to do it and make it fair would be to F/B air (sweet spot) a placed Din's fireball forcing it to detonate. Whether or not the detonation is stronger or weaker than a normal timed detonation should be looked into but if this were to be added I think that this should:

1. Damages and blows zelda back as well (I am leaning toward even more so than the opponent)
and
2. It does not cause the surrounding fireballs around her to blow up in a "chain explosion"

Teleport canceling should give zelda more of a boost in her jump

This would take some time getting used to but after Teleport Canceling and then jumping immediately within a SMALL frame window would give zelda's jump range and momentum a boost. I think this is already a thing but I need to re-verify. I am on the fence with this technique and how it would work with Nayru's love could be a little too OP.


Teleport Grab

Now this may a little unfair in terms of opponents trying to DI, but could really add some swag to the girl. Within the early frames of up zelda's up-smash (and side smash? I am on the fence in regards to side-smash)canceling into teleport will grab the opponent and carry them with her. The pseudo grab would have very little momentum so it would not outright throw them but re-position them to a more zelda friendly position. There should be some guidelines regarding this though.

1. Obviously the frame window for the teleport grab should be small
2. The teleport cancel from the smash attack should NOT be available unless attack actually connects. Botching the read and completely missing the attack or frame window should add a ending lag but not enough to where the technique is deemed completely unusable.
3. The opponent can DI out of the ending hit if the teleport is not canceled.

On the subject of Zelda's Up Smash and Dair

I think Up-smash is fine the way it is. And as far as a OTG goes you actually should be able nail up-tilt in some scenarios but K-falls players have a bad habit of rolling when knocked down.... I also love the Dair ground bounce into Fireball and arouses me every time I nail it. I actually try to do it even if it is the worse option available, I have lost money and food matches trying to nail that shizz. Totally worth it to me. One day I will be able to cancel Teleports small hit into cancel into Dair, i will call it the "dirty girl", I have already patented it. Trademarked SquiiThefish.

Sorry for posting this here but I really want to clarify that I love the P:M Dair and please do not change it.
Up Air Explosion

Actually, I like that up air idea. (if I'm reading it right.)

For instance if the fireball was confirmed to always appear if the move makes it to frame 14 (the start of the electric hitbox) so then even if you land or get hit it'll still poof. Since it would only be a couple frames before the fireball would normally appear, it doesn't seem too silly.

I love that idea.Although I am almost scared to call it OP though, she already cripples movement options with Dins. I am wondering if this would make zelda impenetrable in certain situations? I want to endorse the idea but it may be too much. RETRACTION I THINK THIS IDEA IS VIABLE

Just some thoughts.