Your opinion: Is the conserving air dodge good now?

[Spirst]

Wrong. "To make use of" isn't the definition I'm talking about. I'm talking about "To make use of what's totally not glitch (IMO)."

No, dude. It doesn't matter what contrived definition you're looking for to suit what you're saying. What matters is the definition itself. It clearly states that an exploit is "to make productive use of" something. Wavedashing is a physics exploit that was known by Sakurai and his team during development. The momentum carried over from the air dodge continues upon landing. However, Sakurai didn't intend for wavedashing to become as prominent as it is now. The physics were productively used (read:exploited) for ease of movement and mix-ups. I don't see why you're trying to argue against something that's so obvious. Your statement doesn't even make sense.

 

[link2702]

Still don't know why so many people make such a huge deal about wavedashing.


Some people really blow things out of proportion

 

[LancerStaff]

Exploit is a verb. You are EXPLOITING a bug.

No, dude. It doesn't matter what contrived definition you're looking for to suit what you're saying. What matters is the definition itself. It clearly states that an exploit is "to make productive use of" something. Wavedashing is a physics exploit that was known by Sakurai and his team during development. The momentum carried over from the air dodge continues upon landing. However, Sakurai didn't intend for wave dashing to become as prominent as it is now. The physics were productively used (read:exploited) for ease of movement and mix-ups. I don't see why you're trying to argue against something that's so obvious. Your statement doesn't even make sense.

I can EXPLOIT my control stick to move my character. Must be an exploit.

Doesn't matter if Sakurai knew about it. Monolith soft knew about Xenoblade's damage ratio thing, and people didn't call that an exploit.

Exploit is a verb, not an adjective or noun.

 

[Wiley]

Ok, I think less people care about "exploit" and its definitions than you guys might think. Take that to PM... it's not helpful or on point.

This seems like a decent place for the link, if you've seen it, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

I don't mind the punished landing, but it doesn't feel like that big a punish as seen in the video. I have no problem with the frequency of our air dodges, it's just a lesser roll in the sky. If you can read a roll, you can probably read a dodge. Yes it makes for longer games, but it also makes for far fewer 1 sided forever juggle combos, which I guess are cool to see sometimes. But then half the cast in this current state would be sub par because some clearly have superior ground to air game. They did their best to balance all these issues, I don't think they did a horrible job.

 

[Spirst]

I can EXPLOIT my control stick to move my character. Must be an exploit.

Doesn't matter if Sakurai knew about it. Monolith soft knew about Xenoblade's damage ratio thing, and people didn't call that an exploit.

Exploit is a verb, not an adjective or noun.

Yes, an exploit can be used as a noun.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/exploit

I'm not sure why you even take such an issue with the term. You act as if a dictionary is the central authority and end-all argument when in reality, language is constantly changing. Either way, this is one of the most boring and tedious arguments I've been in yet so I'm not going to press on further.

Ok, I think less people care about "exploit" and its definitions than you guys might think. Take that to PM... it's not helpful or on point.

This seems like a decent place for the link, if you've seen it, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDkNkNPWYY

I don't mind the punished landing, but it doesn't feel like that big a punish as seen in the video. I have no problem with the frequency of our air dodges, it's just a lesser roll in the sky. If you can read a roll, you can probably read a dodge. Yes it makes for longer games, but it also makes for far fewer 1 sided forever juggle combos, which I guess are cool to see sometimes. But then half the cast in this current state would be sub par because some clearly have superior ground to air game. They did their best to balance all these issues, I don't think they did a horrible job.

I think part of the issue is that this game wasn't designed to be as uber competitive as we make it out to be. The mechanics are made for a less fiercely competitive game as Melee was (which wasn't even intended that way) and so something like being able to air dodge once causes an imbalance in the roster as well as makes it harder on more casual players to react to being juggled. I think that being unable to cancel hitstun with it as well as having lag upon landing with it is a decent trade off.

 

[Hayzie]

it's just really annoying to have to deal with since the dodger controls the pace of the match instead of the attacker.

Because defense isn't half the battle or anything.

 

[Quillion]

Because defense isn't half the battle or anything.

Not in Melee or 64, where defense is only to respond to offense.

In Brawl and here, defense controls the pace while offense responds.

Here's an Egoraptor video, linked to the right time, that shows why this isn't fun. It's about Zelda, but can be easily applied to other games:

 

[Wiley]

Wow that video is fine in terms of logic. But why do anything then, I ask that all the time as it is. And you know what's a great escape from this question of "why?" Silly mindless video games and other pointless activities. OH I have to shoot eyes on the wall? Simple discovery, it's not asking for praise, and the idea that he thinks it should be given the master crown of all puzzles is on him. He's just trying to **** on the enjoyment they experienced because he could, and it's an old dog of a game.

People put 1000 piece jig saw puzzles together and find enjoyment (not myself) it's absurd to be grilling a game for it's lower level puzzle mechanics. Not to mention adding the 3rd dimension and actually being able to look around was so, so, so huge for us back then. What a bunch of negativity from such an easy standpoint years down the line.

Sorry all of that was for the video, and not for your reason for posting it... which actually is fitting. Counterplay is heavy in this game, and there are plenty of footsies in the experience, but if rushing and offense is your game there are fighters in the cast who do it better. Some people prefer this tactical window and strike gameplay so I don't know if I can say this is better or worse. I can handle the gameplay featuring footsies, they're part of many fighting games, and regardless of what everyone's complained about... I don't play too many matches where nothing is happening and some form of % is tic'd.
unless it's that uphill 10 feet of snow trek across the field to get the campy spammer while playing someone sluggish, but that's the risk you take playing them.

 

[Quillion]

Sorry all of that was for the video, and not for your reason for posting it... which actually is fitting. Counterplay is heavy in this game, and there are plenty of footsies in the experience, but if rushing and offense is your game there are fighters in the cast who do it better. Some people prefer this tactical window and strike gameplay so I don't know if I can say this is better or worse. I can handle the gameplay featuring footsies, they're part of many fighting games, and regardless of what everyone's complained about... I don't play too many matches where nothing is happening and some form of % is tic'd.
unless it's that uphill 10 feet of snow trek across the field to get the campy spammer while playing someone sluggish, but that's the risk you take playing them.

I linked to the right time for the reason, you know. you didn't have to watch the whole way through.

And yes, the wait-and-punish gameplay is inherently worse, at least if you're talking strictly in a serious, competitive sense.

 

[Wiley]

Lol I know I didn't, just felt like commenting on it. I get carried away, my bad.
:x
But it was a good example for the sake of communicating a theory.

 

[Hayzie]

Not in Melee or 64, where defense is only to respond to offense.

In Brawl and here, defense controls the pace while offense responds.

Here's an Egoraptor video, linked to the right time, that shows why this isn't fun. It's about Zelda, but can be easily applied to other games:

I'm not watching a 30 minute video about a game we're not talking about (although I do love my Zelda the mostest), are you nuts?

Anyways, timing your air dodge has equal amount of priority over timing your attack. Does it not? I've seen both sides getting punished.

 

[Dsull]

While i hated the airdodge into freefall mechanic, it really should only be limited to one. Ive had so many people airdodge me right into another airdodge before my followup could hit them anyway.

 

[Hitzel]

Returning the dodge limit would be like adding a limit to one dodge per ground time, requiring a jump to refresh. It's illogical.

Not really. It's an intuitive concept since things like up-B's, double jumps, and special moves already have limited uses in the air. The airdodge used to put you into special fall, after all. Limiting airdodge use would feel natural because of that.

 

[Raijinken]

Not really. It's an intuitive concept since things like up-B's, double jumps, and special moves already have limited uses in the air. The airdodge used to put you into special fall, after all. Limiting airdodge use would feel natural because of that.

I think if they're to be tweaked, it should be in cooldown duration for repeated airdodges. Limiting them outright would make the offstage game riskier, and thus deter the presently entertaining and skilled off-stage play we see. I already like the landing lag and post-dodge landing lag changes they've made, and personally feel like airdodging isn't a relatively insignificant issue now.

As far as other things putting you into freefall, there are more mobility tools and specials that don't (or no longer, or don't in certain well-received mods) put you into freefall than there are ones that do. There doesn't appear to be rhyme or reason to it, either, as moves like Din's Fire and PK Flash send you into freefall, while actual recovery moves like Fox Illusion don't send you into freefall.

That said, I'd be more accepting of limiting the number of dodges (though not to 1, that still feels too few), but NOT putting you into freefall, and allowing other actions instead.

As for the Egoraptor video, the reason wait and punish is bad in Zelda is because it's always the same. Smash4, unlike Brawl and Melee, does not currently appear to favor either aggression or defense over-much. Defense works, for some characters. Aggression works better for most characters, but there's a time and place for defending. It's a matter of striking a balance, and making all defensive options extremely limiting or weak is a very bad way to strike a balance.

 

[Smearglangelo]

Easy solution is this.
Every air dodge you do in one jump adds to your landing lag. So the more you spam air dodge in one jump, the more you pay for it with a longer landing lag. I think that's fair.

That seems like it would be way too easy to bait and punish. Would air dodging effect grabbing a ledge in anyway?

 

[Quillion]

I'm not watching a 30 minute video about a game we're not talking about (although I do love my Zelda the mostest), are you nuts?

Like I told someone earlier, you don't have to watch the whole thing. I linked to the right time so that no one would have to skip ahead.

 

[Lord P Wallington]

Because defense isn't half the battle or anything.

In this case he's saying it takes up more than half of the battle. Offence should be rewarded. If either defence or offence should be taking the majority of the battle, it should be offence.

 

[Terotrous]

Remove the IASA frames and I think it'd be fine.

 

[Quillion]

Remove the IASA frames and I think it'd be fine.

That would take out one of the few saving graces of the conserving AD. Instead of turtling, you're counterattacking.

 

[Terotrous]

That would take out one of the few saving graces of the conserving AD. Instead of turtling, you're counterattacking.

The IASA frames occur during the recovery of the air dodge, so if you remove them Air Dodges would just become a bit more punishable.

The bigger issue though is that you can use the IASA frames to airdodge into the ground by cancelling to a normal with low landing lag (or even one that autocancels during its startup frames), somewhat defeating the point of that mechanic.