Young Meta, Conservative Rulesets...Did I Miss Something?

[DeLux]

I know, it's obviously unsuitable for play.

 

[Yikarur]

it's best suited. It's one of the best stages ever created. I would not play under a list having halberd not legal.

 

[DeLux]

What makes it "the best"?

 

[Yikarur]

Don't misunderstand me. With "best suited" I don't mean that it's the best stage but it's perfectly fine.

 

[DeLux]

but how can it be fine when it's not fine?

 

[Pazx]

Can I ****post using this colour as well? How can it be not fine when it is fine?

 

[Yikarur]

That color is reserved for former Smash Lab Leader.

It's time for some arguments. I think 99% are in favor of halberd, so Luxy, why are you coming here, acting like some random hipster telling us the stage we all love is not fine?

 

[DeLux]

That color is reserved for former Smash Lab Leader.

It's time for some arguments. I think 99% are in favor of halberd, so Luxy, why are you coming here, acting like some random hipster telling us the stage we all love is not fine?

From the Brawl side of things, it wasn't even technically a legal stage until Apex 2014.

 

[Piford]

From the Brawl side of things, it wasn't even technically a legal stage until Apex 2014.

While I do trust that you know more about the evolution of Brawl's ruleset more than me being a Brawl Backroom member, Halberd was definitely legal before Apex 2014 being legal at Apex 2012

 

[Yikarur]

wtf ? Halberd was always legal in Brawl.

 

[DeLux]

False, it wasn't legal until Apex 2015* (apologies) when the ruleset changed to allow the stage "Halberd" instead of "Battleship Halberd".

Everyone just used the gentlemen's agreement to use the stage if they used the Apex ruleset

 

[Pazx]

False, it wasn't legal until Apex 2015* (apologies) when the ruleset changed to allow the stage "Halberd" instead of "Battleship Halberd".

Everyone just used the gentlemen's agreement to use the stage if they used the Apex ruleset

Do you have any arguments or are you just here to antagonise?

 

[mimgrim]

False, it wasn't legal until Apex 2015* (apologies) when the ruleset changed to allow the stage "Halberd" instead of "Battleship Halberd".

Everyone just used the gentlemen's agreement to use the stage if they used the Apex ruleset

Oh man. This made me laugh so hard.

I wanna like this a second time.

 

[DeLux]

Legitimately, there are nearly a dozen stages "best suited" for competitive play before Halberd that aren't used already. So unless we plan to use a 25 or 29 large stage list, it shouldn't be in an event.

 

[Yikarur]

You're wrong.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah you tell him Yikarur, that namecalling surely showed him !

But seriously what is competitive in having the stage decide randomly to focus one character over another ? Skyloft and Wuhu at least have the decency to have neutral hitboxes.

Having the stage randomly advantaging one character or another, no matter how easy it is to avoid the hitbox, is the bane of competitive gaming where you want to reduce randomness to the strict minimum.

Halberd has never been ok, you're just blinded by your Brawl experience.

 

[NightStormFox]

Brawl had it's flaws. Hence why now we have omega stages and a select few non-omega stages that are balanced for all fighters. On that note a player's ability to actually execute an action also plays a role in how they play/counter-play.

If you choose to play a course or play a mode knowing a course will have certain gaps not accustomed to your characters versus someone else whose characters are best suited for the scenario, then it's your role to adjust your strategy to meet the circumstances. If a course has damaging or infringing obstacles, then try to figure a way to use it to your advantage. I guarantee other players will.

 

[Yikarur]

Having the stage randomly advantaging one character or another, no matter how easy it is to avoid the hitbox, is the bane of competitive gaming where you want to reduce randomness to the strict minimum.

so you suggest that we ban Smashville?

 

[teluoborg]

Yes, it's known that Smashville has a lot of hitboxes that target players randomly.

Try harder next time pls.

 

[Yikarur]

it has a random appearing balloon that can favor one player and a plattform that can save you randomly.

Halberd is perfectly fine. The Hazards are telegraphed and have a strategical use. I've NEVER been hit by a Halberd Hazard so far except when I did a terrible mistake or was thrown into it (which is a good thing).

but because of what you wrote about what your stage list would look like we don't argue on the same ground so the whole discussion is pointless.

 

[DanGR]

Have you never been frame trapped (and consequently killed indirectly) by the claw?

 

[teluoborg]

But the platform has no random factor in it. It always spawns at the same place (extreme right side) and always moves the same way. Balloon appearance is random but does not target anyone in particular, in this regard it's more similar to the scenery change timer on castle siege or the platform setup order on town and city, except with an even smaller window of gameplay intrusion.

And if I want to use your flawed arguments : I personally have never died because of the smashville balloon, therefore it should be legal but I have been killed by the claw therefore Halberd should be banned. QED

And if I want to use actually valid arguments : it's not just about getting hit. Go read some articles about zoning and maybe you will understand the impact the claw and lasers can have on high level play and incidentally decide the outcome of a match.

So yeah, it's not about personal experience, it's about wanting or not to have the outcome of a match (and therefore a tournament) decided by RNG.

But maybe you're the kind of people that liked tripping in Brawl in that case you want rng to be a decisive factor and there is no point arguing.

 

[Piford]

But the platform has no random factor in it. It always spawns at the same place (extreme right side) and always moves the same way. Balloon appearance is random but does not target anyone in particular, in this regard it's more similar to the scenery change timer on castle siege or the platform setup order on town and city, except with an even smaller window of gameplay intrusion.

And if I want to use your flawed arguments : I personally have never died because of the smashville balloon, therefore it should be legal but I have been killed by the claw therefore Halberd should be banned. QED

And if I want to use actually valid arguments : it's not just about getting hit. Go read some articles about zoning and maybe you will understand the impact the claw and lasers can have on high level play and incidentally decide the outcome of a match.

So yeah, it's not about personal experience, it's about wanting or not to have the outcome of a match (and therefore a tournament) decided by RNG.

But maybe you're the kind of people that liked tripping in Brawl in that case you want rng to be a decisive factor and there is no point arguing.

Who spawns next to the platform is RNG, so maybe I spawned on the right and as the platform moves I can get an easy fair string into death. Obviously you shouldn't ban smashville, but there is some RNG involved with every stage with spawn points as they are all asymmetrical in some way except maybe final destination, and even then maybe the player is more comfortable on one side of the map instead of the other.

The RNG in the hazards in halberd don't really matter if your playing with them correctly. For the laser, there's two things you want to do with it. If it's targeting your opponent, you want to apply pressure to them and force them to get hit by it If it's targeting you, you want to place the laser in an advantageous position to you to either combo your opponent into or to zone your opponent.

The claw is similar, but isn't nearly as cool. You basically want to get your opponent into a position where he will get hit by the hazard, or he can't punish you if you dodge it. There's plenty of warning for it and it's extremely easy to dodge. The only reason it should hit you is if your opponent pressured you to get hit by it. You can also do things like stick close to your opponent or grab them to make it hit both of you, but you'd only want to do that if it would benefit you more than your opponent.

 

[DeLux]

I have yet to see a smashville balloon change the scoreboard of a game with 0 player input. I have definitely seen the halberd hazard change the scoreboard of a game with 0 player input. They aren't comparable.

 

[teluoborg]

@ Piford : care to give an example of positioning that would allow you to punish your opponent if he gets targeted by the claw while yourself being safe if you have to dodge it ?

Or a matchup where having the smashville platform with you allows you to get an early kill while it would be impossible for your opponent to do the same ?

If not what you're doing is just bad theorycrafting.
There are RNG in both Smashville and Halberd, but they don't have the same level of interaction with the players at all. The RNGs of Halberd are on the same level as Nabbit.

 

[Piford]

@ Piford : care to give an example of positioning that would allow you to punish your opponent if he gets targeted by the claw while yourself being safe if you have to dodge it ?

Or a matchup where having the smashville platform with you allows you to get an early kill while it would be impossible for your opponent to do the same ?

If not what you're doing is just bad theorycrafting.
There are RNG in both Smashville and Halberd, but they don't have the same level of interaction with the players at all. The RNGs of Halberd are on the same level as Nabbit.

Doing a fast move (obviously depends on character, with some characters it won't work) or hitting a move and then retreating to the ledge or away from it's range. Obviously there's some characters who struggle with it, in that case you just avoid conflict for the couple seconds the claw is out.

There are plenty of characters who can't utilize the smashville platform as well. Like, plenty of characters can use the platform to go farther off stage and get an early kill, but nor many can use it to get 0-deaths. Characters with laggy forward aerials or less air mobility are at an extreme disadvantage. Character's like Sheik can just 0-death you because the platform carries you out to the blastzone, so she can get a couple extra hits of her forward air off.

 

[Yikarur]

It's ridiculous to compare the Claw with Nabbit.
It's not bad theorycrafting what he did. It's bad theorycrafting what you're doing.
The Claw almost never matters.

First you don't really know who's targeted until the claw attacks. You don't really have a "prepare" Phase.
So both palyers have to be aware and you can't realistically position yourself to gain a large advantage.
Second you can just powershield the Claw, that way you're completely lagless. Arguments about frame trapping from the claw whose hitbox is probably only out for about one frame are pointless because that does only happen if you react to it in a really poor way.
Learn the stage before you try to argue about it. There have been stages allowed that made far more of a diffeence based on RNG then that weak claw like Yoshis Island (Brawl) and we still all played on it.

 

[teluoborg]

So the claw has no incidence on the fight as long as you stay on the ground and don't commit to any action that can't be canceled by a shield ? Yes, yes, I see now. Almost never matters, yes...

Well Nabbit has no incidence as long as you hit him before he catches you, and both characters have to play defensively so they don't get caught. Almost never matters too, see ? The keyword is almost.

And yes, the rng on YI:B had a lot of incidence on the outcome of a match, probably as much as Halberd.
Now guess what the rng on YI didn't do. Tip : it's the same thing the rng on Halberd does and also the base of my whole argument.
Answer : it didn't decide which character it saved or killed, it just decided if a platform showed up or not. Much like SV balloon, Delfino transformations order or Orpheon switch timer.

Also YI is counterpick in Brawl tournament now as you can see on the ruleset of all the major brawl tournaments after Appffft hahahaha sorry it was a joke.

PS : "and we all played on it" is again an experience bias. I personally played on JJ, RC and brinstar back in the days, and actually enjoy having serious 1v1s on DK 64. That doesn't mean anything.

 

[W.A.C.]

I'd much rather fight on Windy Hill and Congo Jungle for a 1 vs. 1 match over Castle Siege any day. I find it weird Castle Siege is legal, but not those two stages. I don't understand that stage's legality. I always thought the second area and the transformation made it a very unfair stage to fight on. [LINK]

 

[GeneralLedge]

Windy Hill has really weird springs on the bottom corners that can fly away or fly back without any indication. They also like to spin around.

With that said, I'd think a good way around it is the general understanding of "recover low at your own risk". With that said, the ledges are already rather close to the blast zones so I don't understand how 'recovering low' would be anything but player controlled.

Other arguments against it I've heard are the curve making some character projectiles difficult to use, but I'm pretty sure that just forces it to be a counter-pick. Nothing stopping projectile users from just striking it, and same could be said for characters that are consistently forced to recover low enough to be spring-gimped.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Windy Hill has really weird springs on the bottom corners that can fly away or fly back without any indication. They also like to spin around.

With that said, I'd think a good way around it is the general understanding of "recover low at your own risk". With that said, the ledges are already rather close to the blast zones so I don't understand how 'recovering low' would be anything but player controlled.

Other arguments against it I've heard are the curve making some character projectiles difficult to use, but I'm pretty sure that just forces it to be a counter-pick. Nothing stopping projectile users from just striking it, and same could be said for characters that are consistently forced to recover low enough to be spring-gimped.

Also I've noticed that recovering low seems to be the current meta (stagespike risk notwithstanding) so WHZ being a stage that discourages low recoveries is an interesting twist.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I really hope things get more liberal, because Brawl and Melee had liberal outlooks and that turned out to help their metas. Say what you will of Brawl otherwise.