Yoshi's Island 64 (Clouds)- Possible Fix?

[ArstNeio]

Is there anything wrong with Yoshi's Island 64 other than the far right cloud?

If not, why not put in the simple rule that if you land on the far right cloud, you automatically die, no exceptions? Sure the stage still wouldn't be super fair because it benefits people who can recover from far distances, but that kills the cloud camping strategy, and prevents the far right cloud from buffing people's recoveries. That way, holding the right side of the stage no longer becomes the absolute central factor unless you're facing characters like Puff or Peach. This rule is also super easy to enforce...

I don't see the closer clouds being broken, but if they are the above fix won't work on those clouds because those clouds are much closer to the stage, meaning you might randomly get knocked onto them. For those clouds, if necessary, can implement a rule where you can only consecutively land on each one 5 times before you must land on a different surface (i.e. the stage, or a different cloud). Though again, I'm not even sure if those close clouds are problematic.

Is there anything wrong with this stage besides that far right cloud, and if not, does this fix possibly mean it can attain CP status?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

platform camping is more broken than the clouds falco should always win here win or without the clouds. This is like a campier kj64. like 90% of the cast is totally f***ed it's all about being faster then you can auto win

 

[ArstNeio]

Huh, the height of the platforms hurts it that much, does it?

I would go off and do more testing but I'm in China right now and my copy of Smash here doesn't have that stage unlocked, so.........yeah.

Sort of related: What about Kongo Jungle, the one with the rocks and the river? If we put a consecutive landing limit there to eliminate rock camping, does that improve the stage at all? I'm using the consecutive landing limit because it's easy to enforce much more so than some sort of timer for how long you can be on the rock or something like that.

 

[gm jack]

But what if you get hit trying to return onto the rock/cloud? Does that mean you die then?

 

[Glöwworm]

a possible fix would be hacking melee and removing the clouds

 

[ArstNeio]

The rock and close clouds are 5 (arbitrary number, but about right I think) consecutive landings; if you're on the rock and try to get back onto the stage 5 times and fail all 5 times.....uhhhhhh.

The far cloud is the only insta-die based on this fix. I don't see any situations where you could be hit onto that far cloud and not avoid landing on it.



Hacking I don't think is a very acceptable fix because it'll be so hard to standardize. It's not like Brawl hacking where you just insert SD card and win.

 

[Kanelol]

Platform camping and the convex floor make it ****ty

Sucks, it's kind of my favorite stage

 

[KAOSTAR]

The rock and close clouds are 5 (arbitrary number, but about right I think) consecutive landings; if you're on the rock and try to get back onto the stage 5 times and fail all 5 times.....uhhhhhh.

The far cloud is the only insta-die based on this fix. I don't see any situations where you could be hit onto that far cloud and not avoid landing on it.



Hacking I don't think is a very acceptable fix because it'll be so hard to standardize. It's not like Brawl hacking where you just insert SD card and win.

IF you get hit past the cloud and have to DI straight in to recover it might be in your way. You would have to jump over it or fade back and not get full DI towards teh stage.

Its essentially just in the way.

PLus fox can camp on the other clouds very very well.

Its a pretty bad solution on both stages. They are best left banned. Having them wouldnt add to the games depthness imo anyway. Just makes it more like a party game.

 

[The Star King]

@Kaostar if the right cloud didn't exist and the stage boundaries were "normal", then the player who got hit past the right cloud, should be dead anyway.

 

[Merkuri]

Instead of banning landing on the cloud we should simply ban cloud camping. Once they land on the cloud they need to recover on to the stage instead of continuing to stay on the cloud. If we do that then the stage is fine.

 

[ru5514n]

Even without cloud camping, regular platform camping is broken.

Also, the stage is too **** big. It's probably not a legitimate reason to ban the stage, but still.

 

[Merkuri]

Even without cloud camping, regular platform camping is broken.

Also, the stage is too **** big. It's probably not a legitimate reason to ban the stage, but still.

Regular platform camping would still be worse on KJ64 than this stage. The stage being big is good thing, that's what will make it a solid counter pick.

 

[ArstNeio]

It's really hard to constitute what counts as cloud camping, though, whereas it's really easy to see what constitutes landing on a cloud. In order to make some sort of rule, we need to have a clear brightline between what's camping and what's not, hence the landing rule.

The other thing is, the far right cloud is really against characters with poor horizontal recoveries. IIRC Ganon can't make it from the far right cloud to the near right cloud, which is why I thought maybe we need to just ban landing on the far right cloud period, and limit landings on the near clouds to five consecutive times, both fixes that are very easy to legislate.

That's the thing, it's hard to come up with a fix that is simultaneously good and also is easy to see the brightline as to what's good and what's not.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Kaostar if the right cloud didn't exist and the stage boundaries were "normal", then the player who got hit past the right cloud, should be dead anyway.

whats your point? the boundary isn't normal and saying landing on the cloud equals death was the only stipulation.

now you wanna say they would be dread anyway?

basically, many characters can make it back from that distance. now you want to create am artificial blast zone.

thats ****ing ridiculous. close this thread.

 

[Merkuri]

It's really hard to constitute what counts as cloud camping, though, whereas it's really easy to see what constitutes landing on a cloud. In order to make some sort of rule, we need to have a clear brightline between what's camping and what's not, hence the landing rule.

The other thing is, the far right cloud is really against characters with poor horizontal recoveries. IIRC Ganon can't make it from the far right cloud to the near right cloud, which is why I thought maybe we need to just ban landing on the far right cloud period, and limit landings on the near clouds to five consecutive times, both fixes that are very easy to legislate.

That's the thing, it's hard to come up with a fix that is simultaneously good and also is easy to see the brightline as to what's good and what's not.

I like the idea of making the stage legal but I think the land on the cloud rule means death(it doesn't matter what cloud) is silly imo. It doesn't matter that it handicaps characters with bad horizontal recoveries, the entire point of counter picks is to exploit the weaknesses of certain characters.

And I don't think it's hard to constitute what is cloud camping. It's similar pound rising. When you're just pound rising to avoid your opponent it's illegal, just like when you're remaining on the cloud to avoid your opponent it's illegal. Pound rising doesn't have much of a clear definition either but it's illegality hasn't been a problem whatsoever. However the landing of the cloud 5 times is actually a good idea. I personally think 3 times would be better though.

 

[KishSquared]

Guys, if a stage is big enough that Fox can shoot one laser and run away from a Marth or a Ganon for 8 minutes straight, it's banned. Welcome to 2003.

And no, Fox doesn't need the rightmost cloud to do it.

 

[KishPrime]

It's fun being old.

 

[Merkuri]

Guys, if a stage is big enough that Fox can shoot one laser and run away from a Marth or a Ganon for 8 minutes straight, it's banned. Welcome to 2003.

And no, Fox doesn't need the rightmost cloud to do it.

It's much harder for Fox to run away from Ganon or Marth on Yoshi Island 64 than it is on KJ64.

 

[KishPrime]

Even if true (which I may even grant you) that's why KJ64 isn't a neutral, and both players will always have a chance to switch characters if the stage is selected. It doesn't invalidate other problems with the stage (Yoshi).

 

[Merkuri]

No one is suggesting Yoshi Island 64 be a neutral. We're saying it should be a CP like KJ64. And if we ban cloud camping like I said what other problems does Yoshi Island 64 have? You didn't state any.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its alot easier to ban the stage.

At what point is using the cloud camping. I really dont think we want to get into little details and stupid **** for a stage that most ppl dont wanna play on anyway. We currently have a pretty dam balanced stage list. I would still be ok with adding mute city and japes and possibly removing kj64. but Its also fine how it is.

We dont need yoshis and it wont add any depth to the game.

Im really not trying to enforce ******* rules like 3 seconds of cloud or you must return back to the stage after 10 seconds or something.

ITs a lost cause and overall the arguments for the stage are pretty lack luster. You currently dont even have a legitimate way to implent it into play. Start with an air tight solution and then propose the legality of the stage.

 

[ArstNeio]

Kaostar you haven't addressed the "land on cloud" rule.

Landing on the cloud 3 (or 5) consecutive times = death prevents people from cloud camping in an easy to enforce manner because the clouds disappear if you don't keep jumping and landing on them.

All you've basically said is, "OMG NO BRIGHTLINE FOR CLOUD CAMPING", which clearly is not true considering the landing rule provides a clear brightline, and "OMG IT WON'T ADD DEPTH TO THE GAME STOP TRYING", which is just speculation. Regardless, I'm of the opinion that generally having more stages is good, and that we shouldn't ban unless the stages are proven to be broken. Yoshi's 64 was broken by cloud camping, so I thought. The point of this thread is that because of the way the clouds work, i.e. you have to keep jumping on them, it's very easy to enforce a brightline on cloud camping. Saying something like "oh you can only be on clouds for 5 seconds" is tough to enforce because it's tough to say when the timer starts, when 5 seconds have passed, etc. during the heat of the game. It's pretty easy to count how many times the opponent is jumping up and down on the cloud to refresh the cloud and prevent it from disappearing, though.

 

[Merkuri]

Its alot easier to ban the stage.

At what point is using the cloud camping. I really dont think we want to get into little details and stupid **** for a stage that most ppl dont wanna play on anyway. We currently have a pretty dam balanced stage list. I would still be ok with adding mute city and japes and possibly removing kj64. but Its also fine how it is.

We dont need yoshis and it wont add any depth to the game.

Im really not trying to enforce ******* rules like 3 seconds of cloud or you must return back to the stage after 10 seconds or something.

ITs a lost cause and overall the arguments for the stage are pretty lack luster. You currently dont even have a legitimate way to implent it into play. Start with an air tight solution and then propose the legality of the stage.

Just because something is easier doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You're a lazy person aren't you?

Adding more stages always increases depth, and the argument to make the stage legal is that it if we ban cloud camping then the stage is in no way broken and therefore automatically it should be legalized.

As for actually implementing the rule it's not nearly as hard as you seem to think it is. The Brawl community's 50 ledge grab rule saved the game from being ******** and it works for them. If it works for them it can work with us. We've stated a legitimate way to implementing it into play, you're stating it's impractical without giving a reason why and therefore you don't have an argument at all. The air tight solution is to ban cloud camping. Landing on the cloud more than 3 times is banned. If people can get over there over conservative mindset then I think most people would see that the stage is fine.

 

[KAOSTAR]

LOL if you think thats gonna stop fox from cloud camping. Thats just means he will push the could camping to his limit. Stay on as long as possible and you cant approach or u get lasered. So then he jumps to help lengthen the clouds life. and repeats.

lands on the stage. moves to another cloud and repeats.

Its really not gonna stop fox.

Its also kinda dumb to say something like I jumped 3 times now Im dead. The reason I dont care for arbitrary deaths is because it becomes impossible to tell who wins when it comes down to the wire.

I mean if marth goes and upthrows fox 3 times while they are both on a cloud then fox is dead? Its too messy imo. You would need something cleaner like clouds can only be used to recover. Im just saying you wont get anywhere without a well thoughtout plan and imo you still have a bit of thinking to do.

 

[ArstNeio]

Marth upthrowing fox 3 times on the far right cloud of Yoshi's is such an unlikely scenario that I don't feel it needs to be addressed.

Furthermore, saying something like "you can only use the clouds to recover" is the opposite of a "cleaner" solution, because what constitutes as "trying to recover"?

If we go with the 3 lands rule, we're basically offering that same solution in the "cleaner" package. How's Fox going to camp the far right cloud if he can only land on clouds 3 times? Let's say he's on the stage and wants to go to the far right cloud. 1st land: the near right cloud. 2nd land: the far right cloud. 3rd land: he can't even shoot an SHL because if he does that would be a third landing on the far right cloud, which means he cannot use the near right cloud to recover onto the stage anymore. Please explain how it's even possible to camp the far cloud under this rule. 3 landings basically is a way to add a clear brightline to what is cloud camping and what is using the clouds appropriately for recovery.

 

[Merkuri]

^ Good Point. And if Fox does keep going back to the cloud keep in mind that he has to come back to the stage. Doing that is just asking to get gimped or having major damage on anyone who knows how to fight spacies.

 

[BigD!!!]

jiggs and peach would be so screwed there

it would take them like 5 or 6 seconds to get from the ground to the top platform, then another 3 to get back down, while fox could do both in a half second each

 

[KAOSTAR]

Marth upthrowing fox 3 times on the far right cloud of Yoshi's is such an unlikely scenario that I don't feel it needs to be addressed.

Furthermore, saying something like "you can only use the clouds to recover" is the opposite of a "cleaner" solution, because what constitutes as "trying to recover"?

If we go with the 3 lands rule, we're basically offering that same solution in the "cleaner" package. How's Fox going to camp the far right cloud if he can only land on clouds 3 times? Let's say he's on the stage and wants to go to the far right cloud. 1st land: the near right cloud. 2nd land: the far right cloud. 3rd land: he can't even shoot an SHL because if he does that would be a third landing on the far right cloud, which means he cannot use the near right cloud to recover onto the stage anymore. Please explain how it's even possible to camp the far cloud under this rule. 3 landings basically is a way to add a clear brightline to what is cloud camping and what is using the clouds appropriately for recovery.

You bring up a valid point.

But I didnt even have the far right cloud in mind. I was thinking about the closer one to the stage. Saying fox can run around the stage and camp and then extend to the cloud. returning back and fourth isnt a problem. When he is on the first cloud he is still pretty safe for the time being. He can spend alot of time there and its not safe to try to go after him. your best bet is to choose fox and implement the same strategy.

If you are hit onto the far right cloud then its not as bad as the previous situation.

Plus I dont know how big of an issue it is, but I believe mario cannot make it back to the stage.

As far as recovery goes, you can say you must be knocked past the cloud in order to use it as a recovery tool.

two ppl on the cloud can easily mean you can abuse the number rule. not that it matters, but you have to account for it happening. I dont think it will be as rare as you say.

Also, you never addressed my issue in which two players die very close together in time. The game has always decided the winner, but in this case its potentially left up to discretion, although I do agree it could be a rare occurrence.

 

[Merkuri]

jiggs and peach would be so screwed there

it would take them like 5 or 6 seconds to get from the ground to the top platform, then another 3 to get back down, while fox could do both in a half second each

Jigs and Peach would have a harder time catching Fox on KJ64 than here.

 

[BigD!!!]

i dunno, i havent played yoshis island 64 in like a year at least, i thought it was a decent amount taller than kj64

 

[ArstNeio]

I think he's saying because of the layout of the platforms and the fact that the side platforms on KJ also are rather high. Again, though, I'm not sure because (gah!) I don't have Yoshi's 64 unlocked on my Cube here in China. I wish I could playtest this

Kaostar, your scenario with Fox sounds possible but I don't know if it would be worse than it is on currently legal stages. Someone needs to play some matches on the stage.

 

[BigD!!!]

i think it would be harder to catch fox with the platform in the middle

in dk64 you can ride the elevator, throw a turnip straight up, then sort of herd him into a corner where you can guess 1 of 3 options or something, which isnt great but if you get it right you'll knock him off the edge and have an edgeguarding opportunity

yoshis island 64, peach/jiggs have to stop on one of the side platforms on the way up, which allows fox to just go down on the other side, really far away from the opponent

plus he could just double jump upwards, then up b to either of the 2 side clouds or straight down depending on where peach/jiggs goes

pretty ugly scenario any way i look at it

 

[ArstNeio]

Hmm, that does look troublesome. Can't Peach/Puff try and focus battle on one side, though, so they always get hit toward the right in which case they'll likely survive with their super horizontal recoveries? Disallowing usage of the far right platform for recovery as well could possibly hurt Fox's horizontal recovery from the right side enough that Fox cannot take advantage of the assymetrical blast zone.

And is the stage enough worse than DK64 that it deserves a ban, though? Is it enough worse than DK64 that it could be considered broken?

Also, are there any other issues with the stage that we haven't discussed yet, besides Fox platform camping with assistance from the near clouds? How about how the stage affects matchups that don't involve a character named Fox?

 

[KishSquared]

Guys, if a stage is big enough that Fox can shoot one laser and run away from a Marth or a Ganon for 8 minutes straight, it's banned. Welcome to 2003.

And no, Fox doesn't need the rightmost cloud to do it.

Hey guys, remember when I posted this? Wow, what an awesome post. Look at the 7 years of wisdom just radiating from it. It gives off a warm glow of inspiration and hope.

KJ64 doesn't compare to this stage. If you think it does, then post a vid showing you successfully spamming/running away from someone for 8 minutes. KJ64 isn't much bigger than Kirby64, it just has one more platform.

...plus a BARREL!

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

KJ64 doesn't compare to this stage. If you think it does, then post a vid showing you successfully spamming/running away from someone for 8 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

i still think YI64 is far worse then KJ64. but I think both should be banned.

 

[ArstNeio]

Can someone give some insight on matchups that don't involve Fox laser camping this stage, and how those might also be broken? I realize that Fox being able to run train on people with less mobility is clearly a big issue, but I'm curious as to how other characters perform on this stage in other matchups. Are there any other degenerate tactics that this stage encourages, besides running around laser camping with Fox?

Are there any other matchups on this stage, besides Puff/Peach v. Fox, that result in the same problem discussed above of a high mobility character being able to run circles around a low vertical mobility character?

I know that just having Fox be able to outcamp anyone on this stage is good enough for it to be considered bannable, but I'm just curious as regards to other characters, and I can't really test other matchups myself.

I originally made this thread because this post http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110804 made it sound like the sole, or at least biggest reason that YI64 was banned was camping on the far right cloud, which I feel like the solution posted here fixes pretty well. I assumed that the stage had other problems, but considering they weren't mentioned I also assumed that they were minor problems that aren't enough criteria for a ban by themselves.

 

[Merkuri]

Can someone give some insight on matchups that don't involve Fox laser camping this stage, and how those might also be broken? I realize that Fox being able to run train on people with less mobility is clearly a big issue, but I'm curious as to how other characters perform on this stage in other matchups. Are there any other degenerate tactics that this stage encourages, besides running around laser camping with Fox?

Are there any other matchups on this stage, besides Puff/Peach v. Fox, that result in the same problem discussed above of a high mobility character being able to run circles around a low vertical mobility character?

I know that just having Fox be able to outcamp anyone on this stage is good enough for it to be considered bannable, but I'm just curious as regards to other characters, and I can't really test other matchups myself.

I originally made this thread because this post http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110804 made it sound like the sole, or at least biggest reason that YI64 was banned was camping on the far right cloud, which I feel like the solution posted here fixes pretty well. I assumed that the stage had other problems, but considering they weren't mentioned I also assumed that they were minor problems that aren't enough criteria for a ban by themselves.

I really don't think other matchups matter. Like half of the stages are banned simply because of Fox and this is supposed to be one of them.

And to anyone who thinks that YI64 is as bad as KJ64 check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5kThis wouldn't happen YI64.
Also only someone ******** would think Puff wouldn't be able to catch Peach on YI64, but apparently successfully chasing peach doesn't work on KJ64. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI

 

[ArstNeio]

Yeah, I acknowledged that other matchups do not matter, but it still piques my interest, and might important to a super sekrit document about stage selekshun stuffs (check that awesome amazing alliteration) that I might or might not be writing right now shhhhh sekrit


But like, Temple is an example where it's not just Fox who can circle camp, it's just whoever's the fastest character. Is YI64 a stage that becomes like Temple, where it's not just Fox who can camp, but whoever has the greater vertical mobility? Or is it just because Fox is too good, and in matches with other character's, it's acceptably okay?

 

[KAOSTAR]

you cannot catch m2 on this stage. you need lasers to win lol.

mario cannot make it back to the stage if he is hit to far cloud.

minor issues. but overall fox always ducks **** up.

 

[Merkuri]

I really don't see why catching m2 on this stage would be harder than catching m2(or really anyone) on KJ64. Keep in mind that also this stage is taller than KJ64 it's much thinner, meaning there is far far less space horizontally for your opponent to run.

Also for Mario(I really doubt he can't make it back to the cloud) or anyone else who can't made it back if they land on the far cloud then it simply means that their recovery is lacking. If the cloud wasn't there to begin with they would have just fallen to their death so the fact that they can't make it back is kind of irrelevant imo.