X5 suggested Changes and Nerfs (let's be reasonable folks)

[Spice]

I have to agree with Praxis here. Seriously, when has Diddy even placed top 5 at a major tourney? Why do characters need to be nerfed if they aren't even a problem in the meta game? Diddy has features that people don't like, but they aren't degenerate in any way. Until Diddy starts being in the top 5 on a regular basis I don't think this kind of stuff is even worth considering.

His bananas and jet pack are some of his only unique and powerful features as a character. Nerfing these means he will guaranteed never see any top tournament play.

 

[TylerX5]

I'm still not convinced the misfire barrels should stay in the way it exists right now. My reasoning for changing it doesn't depend on whether or not diddy's are winning. It's the fact that the move punishes an edge guard without any skill or thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that

 

[Spice]

I'm still not convinced the misfire barrels should stay in the way it exists right now. My reasoning for changing it doesn't depend on whether or not diddy's are winning. It's the fact that the move punishes an edge guard without any skill or thought. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that

Ok, I will agree with this. The misfires are unnecessary, and they wouldn't hurt Diddy as a character either if they were removed. Other than that I seriously don't think he needs to be nerfed if he isn't even placing high in the larger tournaments though.

 

[Phan7om]

I say the only thing that needs to be changed about Diddy are the misfire barrels. You could cut the charge time in half too but that isnt a big deal, hes pretty easy to edgeguard.

 

[Praxis]

Ok, I will agree with this. The misfires are unnecessary, and they wouldn't hurt Diddy as a character either if they were removed. Other than that I seriously don't think he needs to be nerfed if he isn't even placing high in the larger tournaments though.

Or if they did 0% damage and a set knockback, which meant Diddy could still get back to the stage and use them as projectiles by deliberately up-Bing in to things (I do this often when recovering vs Zelda), but they would never be a major punishment.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Who wouldn't go straight into din fire, that means you don't have to worry about it later, and you get to adjust angle to sweet spot ledge if wanted. Not to mention that means not going into lightning legs or neutral b. Don't know why Zelda's do this for us but not complaining. I have like zero respect for din fire unless 6 are on field at same time, I don't feel trapped at all cause I know the countdown. Also someone had an idea of misfire only activating from a grounded upb, but that was useless since OOS up b considers you in the air.

 

[TylerX5]

Or if they did 0% damage and a set knockback, which meant Diddy could still get back to the stage and use them as projectiles by deliberately up-Bing in to things (I do this often when recovering vs Zelda), but they would never be a major punishment.

But where's the skill factor in that? What has the Diddy Kong player done to deserve that option?

 

[MoosyDoosy]

But where's the skill factor in that? What has the Diddy Kong player done to deserve that option?

Which is why we're saying barrel misfire needs to be changed and thinking how it can be broken.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

The only changes I'd care about are removing superfluous/fraudulent things.

Up-B's meteor, get rid of it. (No one gets these on purpose. People are robbed of stocks with this move.)

Up-B's Barrel hitbox, get rid of it. (No one should take damage for HITTING someone.)

Diddy should only get to have 1 Banana out. (Obvious)

Make Dash attack have less hits and less safe overall. (This move is scrubby is **** as of now and needs to become a less derpy move.)

Other than that, I don't care that Diddy is good as a character. I just want to see the derpy/stock robbing stuff go away.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

But where's the skill factor in that? What has the Diddy Kong player done to deserve that option?

The same thing the last peach player I played did to deserve a beam sword bomb and (the yes sir it won't happen again stitch face turnip) all in the same match on just 20-30 pulls. Sometimes this game likes to be trollishly random. Example g&w start match with lvl 9 hammer and Gordo for recovering DDD. Its another random element to what was intended to be a party game.
The only rational idea of the barrel I could make was of its properties. Diddy is actually akin to a rushing projectile as he goes flying into the air. There exist certain angles where if Mario capes you before move end, the barrels just explode because one barrel was reflected into the other from your overlapping hitbox, and you fall helplessly in a similar fashion to brawl. So from that standpoint, maybe the move itself is just an item toss with a diddy attached to it. Not everything in this game makes sense, but as long as I don't have to deal with any more NADO & shuttle loop spam I will survive. Pm team thought of a way to make tripping not b.s , give them time and they could probably figure a non-game breaking solution.

 

[TylerX5]

The only changes I'd care about are removing superfluous/fraudulent things.

Up-B's meteor, get rid of it. (No one gets these on purpose. People are robbed of stocks with this move.)

Up-B's Barrel hitbox, get rid of it. (No one should take damage for HITTING someone.)

Diddy should only get to have 1 Banana out. (Obvious)

Make Dash attack have less hits and less safe overall. (This move is scrubby is **** as of now and needs to become a less derpy move.)

Other than that, I don't care that Diddy is good as a character. I just want to see the derpy/stock robbing stuff go away.

1. While I dislike That Diddy's Up B has a meteor it would be wrong to say people don't get these on purpose. Off stage dash > dair > Up B from reading a jump is a common tactic.

2. Are you talking about the Misfire or Diddy's UpB hitbox?

3. I'm on the fence but right now I'm leaning towards the idea that he should either have 1 Banana or be able to trip on his Banana's

4. I disagree, it''s not really any worse than a sex kick or Lucas's nair.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Are the bananas really that bad in pm to play against? As they are now diddy can have two on the field at the same time. Unlike other projectile characters except peach, all of diddy's projectiles can be used against him without the need of a power shield or reflector.
The incorporation of wave dash pickup on banana was a much larger nerf to diddy's item game at high level play than people realize. True it gave diddy the same option, but it still gives the defender more power against his item play.

Add to the fact that the banana is tech able, and it makes trying to followup extremely risky if you just go derp dash attack or down smash. Many times you will only get stage position and percent if you are playing a competent opponent.
Lastly if derp dash> dair and/or upb is working on you, then that is definitely more of an issue with matchup experience than the character itself.(Seriously hold down during dash attack. Press away to avoid the dair followup. Jump slightly later to avoid up b or hold up during dash attack.) Now if you were criticizing legit balance concerns like why does lke envy the power on diddy's far reaching forward smash, or why is the angle fair sends at 70%+ almost half as mean as a link's up b spike angle given at the ledge even if opponent is at 0%, I would be more inclined to agree.

 

[DeFish]

I'm honestly convinced that the only people complaining about bananas at this point are the hardcore melee players that also sign up for PM tournaments and don't expect to have to learn new tech/matchups.

 

[Praxis]

I'm honestly convinced that the only people complaining about bananas at this point are the hardcore melee players that also sign up for PM tournaments and don't expect to have to learn new tech/matchups.

This. Bananas are nerfed so hard from Brawl with this game's mechanics. It's *hard* for Diddy to get to his naners as this game moves at so much higher speed, and there are no guaranteed followups.

Almost all of Captain Falcon's attacks (jab, grab, any aerial) have scarier followups and guessing games than a banana trip.

 

[Praxis]

The only changes I'd care about are removing superfluous/fraudulent things.

Up-B's meteor, get rid of it. (No one gets these on purpose. People are robbed of stocks with this move.)

Up-B's Barrel hitbox, get rid of it. (No one should take damage for HITTING someone.)

Diddy should only get to have 1 Banana out. (Obvious)

Make Dash attack have less hits and less safe overall. (This move is scrubby is **** as of now and needs to become a less derpy move.)

Other than that, I don't care that Diddy is good as a character. I just want to see the derpy/stock robbing stuff go away.

Your suggested changes would make Diddy a bottom tier worthless character, betray low skill level, and are frankly just bad.

1 banana out makes Diddy worthless. up-B meteor gets landed on purpose all the time. Second banana is "fradulent?" Get better.

 

[NegroCaucasian]

i just have an issue with his recovery, im tired of this brawl newcomers having better recoverys than jigglypuff. (snake, diddy, sonic, pit & metaknight) the only one that i think should be changed is diddys

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Your suggested changes would make Diddy a bottom tier worthless character, betray low skill level, and are frankly just bad.

1 banana out makes Diddy worthless. up-B meteor gets landed on purpose all the time. Second banana is "fradulent?" Get better.

Diddy's dash attack is fraudulent. I should have been clear.

I've seen people get away with doing this move 3 times in a row and a lot of characters can't solidly punish this move OOS.

I mean, I'll just Up-B people who do this move on my shield, cuz I play Link.

Losing the Up-B meteor wouldn't do a damn thing to his viability.

Are you forgetting that his Dair is a move? C'mon man. xD

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

1. While I dislike That Diddy's Up B has a meteor it would be wrong to say people don't get these on purpose. Off stage dash > dair > Up B from reading a jump is a common tactic.

2. Are you talking about the Misfire or Diddy's UpB hitbox?

3. I'm on the fence but right now I'm leaning towards the idea that he should either have 1 Banana or be able to trip on his Banana's

4. I disagree, it''s not really any worse than a sex kick or Lucas's nair.

Trust me, dash attack with Diddy is super scrub friendly.

The move is safe on shield and most characters lack options to punish it effectively/consistently. (I already pretty much said this tho. lel)

I'm referring to the barrel that comes off of his Up-B when you hit him. That **** needs to go. It's more annoying than anything. lol

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Diddy's dash attack is fraudulent. I should have been clear.

I've seen people get away with doing this move 3 times in a row and a lot of characters can't solidly punish this move OOS.

I mean, I'll just Up-B people who do this move on my shield, cuz I play Link.

Losing the Up-B meteor wouldn't do a damn thing to his viability.

Are you forgetting that his Dair is a move? C'mon man. xD

Dont know if you are trolling or not. If no then you mistook the diddy player for being fraudulent when his opponent was the fraud. If the player is bad no amount of nerf will save him from something like this happening with a different character. Dash attack has several angles you can d.I to in order to get out of the that move, and the opponent failed to do any of these 3 times in a row. Similar things have occured with new players being stuck in a ddd down throw infinite or g&w dash attack. When speaking of nerfs discussion is usually reserved for (hi) level competent play, and the theoretical person you described wouldn't even make it out of pools. As for the up b meteor, many sweet spot hits in this game result in a spike, (falcon, marth , dk, Lucas, snake) be glad its just a meteor, this thing called meteor cancelling exist. If they gave it more of a horizontal knock back instead, that angle would be just as nasty against most characters and would have the ability to also cause a stage spike instead.

Though you clarifying the up b hit box to the barrel misfire greatly increases the number of people that would agree with you. suggestions been placed for that, from making it a generic recovery, rework, or having to time a button press to send the misfire off when hit.

 

[Praxis]

Diddy's dash attack is fraudulent. I should have been clear.

I've seen people get away with doing this move 3 times in a row and a lot of characters can't solidly punish this move OOS.

I mean, I'll just Up-B people who do this move on my shield, cuz I play Link.

Losing the Up-B meteor wouldn't do a damn thing to his viability.

Are you forgetting that his Dair is a move? C'mon man. xD

Almost everyone in the cast can punish dash attack on shield. And you play Link, who has a safe dash attack on shield, so quit your whining.

If Diddy hit it three times in a row, the opponent DI'd wrong. You can DI and tech out of a single dash attack at basically any percent. The opponent is the fraud.

Dair is a meteor, not a spike. I've had to double (once triple) spike opponents (two dairs and an up-B) to make sure they died.

There's no reason to remove the up-B spike either. You just want to nerf a character that already isn't a top character because...you don't like him?

Single banana would make him unviable.

Stop whining, get better.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Almost everyone in the cast can punish dash attack on shield. And you play Link, who has a safe dash attack on shield, so quit your whining.

If Diddy hit it three times in a row, the opponent DI'd wrong. You can DI and tech out of a single dash attack at basically any percent. The opponent is the fraud.

Dair is a meteor, not a spike. I've had to double (once triple) spike opponents (two dairs and an up-B) to make sure they died.

There's no reason to remove the up-B spike either. You just want to nerf a character that already isn't a top character because...you don't like him?

Single banana would make him unviable.

Stop whining, get better.

I'm trying to be civil here. But you keep acting like a d-bag for literally no reason.

I get that this is technically the internet, and you get to act like your ball-bag has some weight here, but can we be civil for a sec?

I looked over your banana stuff and now I see why it makes sense not to remove a banana.

What I'm saying is that you have presented good points and I see now that the 2 Bananas are needed for the character.

I agree that Diddy can be a very technical character if people choose to play him that way.

But a lot of people (scrubs) are very minimalist in their playstyles.

The nature of Diddy's dash attack allows people to use it too ofter. (Multi-hitting and relatively safe on shield.)

I get that with Link, dash attack can be safe if spaced properly. This is where the difference lies between Diddy and Link, however.

The safeness of Diddy's dash attack comes simply from being multi hit and the move ending with you on the other side of your opponent. Usually far enough to avoid most bairs OOS.

I never said that I got hit by the dash attack. I should have stated that the move is safe enough on shield that they can do it a few times without fear of being punished by most characters.

In a game where we want to reward skilled players for being good, we shouldn't reward players who simply run forward and press A.

The Up-B spike is more of a thing where I see people get it by accident 95% of the time, and the opponent shouldn't have been robbed of a stock.

Robbed stocks are the worst. It's like getting with Falco's side B when you're both recovering.

Did you REALLY deserve to lose that stock? Why does he still HAVE that?

And the exploding barrel coming off of Diddy's Up-B doesn't need to be there because people shouldn't take damage for hitting their opponent.

In the case of the exploding barrel on the Up-B, you're being rewarded for the opponent hitting you.

You should NEVER be rewarded for the opponent hitting you.

 

[DeFish]

The reason @ Praxis is grumpy is because once a week, someone comes into the Diddy forums, posts almost word for word what you just did, and then proceeds to foam at the mouth when their "suggestions" aren't met with open arms. This entire thread (and it's not the only one) is dedicated to people making complaints and calling for nerfs that basically just say "I don't want to have to deal with this, so make it suck." The only thing that you've suggested that doesn't neuter the chimp is changing the barrel misfires, and again, almost every Diddy player on this forum has agreed that they should be changed.

But a lot of people (scrubs) are very minimalist in their playstyles.

The nature of Diddy's dash attack allows people to use it too ofter. (Multi-hitting and relatively safe on shield.)

This is what I have a problem with. If you're losing to a single player spamming the same thing over and over, it's not that player's fault. They found a strategy that you can't deal with, and they're riding it to victory. Diddy's dash attack is punished HARD by crouch canceling, and has enough endlag that you have plenty of time to punish it with an out of shield option, even if he rolls through and ends up behind you. If you can't punish that move, then you need to look to up your OOS game.

The Up-B spike is more of a thing where I see people get it by accident 95% of the time, and the opponent shouldn't have been robbed of a stock.

This is just wrong. You have absolutely nothing to back up the claim that the spike on this is nearly always an accident, and as an avid up-b spiker I can tell you that I routinely do combos specifically to put my opponent in a position to be up-b spiked. A lot of Diddy's kit gets labeled as "random", and I'll agree that to a lot of people it probably looks like your average Diddy player is just throwing stuff out there and getting lucky. But, just like the boomerang happy Links and the fireball happy Marios, if you look deeper you'll start to notice the subtle tricks with spacing and movement that make it so that those seemingly random things are somehow always dead on. Again, it sounds like you're complaining about something you don't understand and don't want to deal with. Whether or not that's true, your phrasing makes your complaints sound that way.

Robbed stocks are the worst. It's like getting with Falco's side B when you're both recovering.

Did you REALLY deserve to lose that stock? Why does he still HAVE that?

My argument to this is: what were you doing that put you in a position to get spiked by it? Were you trying to edge guard Falco? Then how'd you get hit by it? Because you messed up your edge guard? Because you mis-timed or mis-positioned? Then you absolutely deserve to lose that stock. Smash is a game that's made exciting by how quickly things can go from neutral to "holy hell he got blown away", where getting grabbed or eating the wrong attack can lead to huge combos that can often result in a lost stock. I've died to my fair share of Falco side-b's, and in the end I learned how to edge guard them in a way that was smarter and safer.

tl;dr- Diddy players are tired of all the complaining, and that makes us cranky (kong).

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

The reason @ Praxis is grumpy is because once a week, someone comes into the Diddy forums, posts almost word for word what you just did, and then proceeds to foam at the mouth when their "suggestions" aren't met with open arms. This entire thread (and it's not the only one) is dedicated to people making complaints and calling for nerfs that basically just say "I don't want to have to deal with this, so make it suck." The only thing that you've suggested that doesn't neuter the chimp is changing the barrel misfires, and again, almost every Diddy player on this forum has agreed that they should be changed.



This is what I have a problem with. If you're losing to a single player spamming the same thing over and over, it's not that player's fault. They found a strategy that you can't deal with, and they're riding it to victory. Diddy's dash attack is punished HARD by crouch canceling, and has enough endlag that you have plenty of time to punish it with an out of shield option, even if he rolls through and ends up behind you. If you can't punish that move, then you need to look to up your OOS game.




This is just wrong. You have absolutely nothing to back up the claim that the spike on this is nearly always an accident, and as an avid up-b spiker I can tell you that I routinely do combos specifically to put my opponent in a position to be up-b spiked. A lot of Diddy's kit gets labeled as "random", and I'll agree that to a lot of people it probably looks like your average Diddy player is just throwing stuff out there and getting lucky. But, just like the boomerang happy Links and the fireball happy Marios, if you look deeper you'll start to notice the subtle tricks with spacing and movement that make it so that those seemingly random things are somehow always dead on. Again, it sounds like you're complaining about something you don't understand and don't want to deal with. Whether or not that's true, your phrasing makes your complaints sound that way.




My argument to this is: what were you doing that put you in a position to get spiked by it? Were you trying to edge guard Falco? Then how'd you get hit by it? Because you messed up your edge guard? Because you mis-timed or mis-positioned? Then you absolutely deserve to lose that stock. Smash is a game that's made exciting by how quickly things can go from neutral to "holy hell he got blown away", where getting grabbed or eating the wrong attack can lead to huge combos that can often result in a lost stock. I've died to my fair share of Falco side-b's, and in the end I learned how to edge guard them in a way that was smarter and safer.

tl;dr- Diddy players are tired of all the complaining, and that makes us cranky (kong).

I find it funny that no one is allowed to raise points w/o people being accused of being bad.

I never said I lose because of dash attack.Don't make assumptions. Safe dash attacks are annoying, as it encourages bad players to use them too often.

Dash attacks shouldn't be safe. I can't believe I even have to say this to anyone here.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I find it funny that no one is allowed to raise points w/o people being accused of being bad.

I never said I lose because of dash attack.Don't make assumptions. Safe dash attacks are annoying, as it encourages bad players to use them too often.

Dash attacks shouldn't be safe. I can't believe I even have to say this to anyone here.

We agree dash attacks shouldn't be safe, what defish is trying to say in less words is that diddy's dash attack is punishable. Both by crouch cancel(due to having weak knock back and multihit,) and OOS bair does work for the majority of the roster if done correctly. Another thing to take into consideration is that this is a grounded 1% damaging attack so moves like mewtwo's tilts dk anything g&w d tilt and Roy poke all over power it. Similar more safe dash attacks like Kirby's and dk's exist in the game with near the same problems or no problems.

Now what I can't figure out is why is diddy's up b misfire the rage starter, when Mario fireballs keeps over half the roster from being playable, and stall antics are virtually untouchable as is till opponent grows a heart.

 

[DeFish]

I find it funny that no one is allowed to raise points w/o people being accused of being bad.

Because the way they raise them is to say "I don't like #{attack}, nerf it now and nerf it hard!" If people came here and said things like "I have a hard time dealing with bananas, can you guys give me any tips?" or "I have a hard time punishing dash attack, what are some good ways to deal with it?" then we'd be having a very different conversation. But when every complaint just calls for straight nerfs, you'd better believe we'll defend our beloved kong. The Diddys on this forum are more than happy to have reasonable discussions about dealing with the stronger parts of Diddy's kit, but that's impossible when a person's immediate solution to dealing with those strengths is nerfing them.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

I find it funny that no one is allowed to raise points w/o people being accused of being bad.

I never said I lose because of dash attack.Don't make assumptions. Safe dash attacks are annoying, as it encourages bad players to use them too often.

Dash attacks shouldn't be safe. I can't believe I even have to say this to anyone here.

If you can deal with it, you don't need to complain right? Just punish them heavily for spamming it and go for the win.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Reasons for misfire:
It is a property of the character itself, similar to link automatically blocking a projectile he was hit by, peach stitch face bomb and beam sword, Gordo, judgement 9 nintendude, sure nothing was done worthy of such benefits in these cases, and diddy did nothing worthy of misfire. All of these can be momentum changing and we accept it as part of the character until now?
2. Diddy is not yet a major concern from a balancing standpoint as of 3.0, and many talks already have him receiving nerfs anyway.
3. Other characters exist that are hazardous to careful precise edgeguarding.

Reasons against misfire:
1.Deep Kong is bad enough, and this challenges the principle of edgeguarding established by years of melee experience.
2. Diddy player did nothing to deserve this reward, and it should not be able to kill.
3.It is seemingly random and even the diddy players think it is du.mb
Wonder if the nerf cries will win 4.0 debate. Both sides have valid arguments.

 

[fraggle]

I think that diddy is easy to edgeguard even with the misfire barrels. Taking those away completely is like making it comparable to DDDs if he couldnt waddle dash and couldnt cancel the up B. It would just be a fake threat that is predictable and easy to punish once you know the hit box.

And yea if your complaining about Naners then that means your bad with naners. As a diddy player i know for to only take out one naner unless its a set up because most of the local players i play with know how to use items so it becomes a threat to me if there are 2 out anyway.

Also if you want there to be increased landing lag on diddys up B it wont matter alot because most diddys either try and sweet spot edges low or platform cancel if possible.i know that if i just recover on stage there is more then enough time to punish unless i get a a really good slide away from my opponent.

I am interested in some of Searing_Sorrows and DisQos ideas. I also just kinda figured that they would change diddys fair to be like shieks or something like that.

 

[Master WGS]

Started playing Diddy a lot recently. He seems to just have an extraordinary kit. He can be edge-guarded for sure, though I think the distance barrel can travel seems a little overboard. I don't think his recovery demands nerfing, but I can absolutely see where people are coming from on that front. Even when properly edge-guarded, it is a major pain to deal with, especially after coming from Melee it just seems like a lot. BUT again, I don't think it merits nerfing (yet).

Really, I feel like he just over-all hits too hard/angles are weird on some of his moves. The angle fair sends your opponent when sweet-spotted is borderline absurd. I feel similarly towards fsmash. Not saying characters aren't allowed to have really good moves, but this seems like a bit much for the little guy who already seems to have a lot going for him. His other aerials all combo at low percents, and have solid growth so they feel fairly lethal at decent percents. Having these two options to just hit like a truck and be, as far as I can tell, impossible to really DI safely seems unneeded. Admittedly, I'm fairly new to him so I may be missing a lot of why these things are necessary for him to be viable, but they came off as immediately too strong for how the rest of him fits together.

@ Praxis - While I definitely DO NOT think Diddy should be limited to one banana, I think saying this immediately invalidates him as a character is a bit of a stretch. I think he has a LOT going for him, and you make it sound like he's absolutely doomed without 2 naners. While he's certainly in a worse position if that's the case, I don't think they're absolutely necessary for his survival. Again, I don't think it needs to be changed - I just think you're exaggerating just how big of a blow it'd be to his game.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Didn't know we were still on this page lol. Was hoping everyone was practicing things they had control over. You know critiquing each other to improve in the future, and formulating new ideas to advance the character... my bad

Anyway only thing I heard on the subject. Edited: left out info
Though immediate touches on diddy will probably start with fair and forward smash. Nothing I have heard to completely ruin the character has occurred. I would like it if your own banana could not knock you out of side b command grab. Would make some traps a lot better.

 

[Master WGS]

Whooo didn't notice I was like two weeks late to the discussion.

I'm all for continuing to test and improve, mind you - this is just my opinion after casually tinkering with the character for about a year or so and then playing enough to actually use him in tournaments for the last month or so. I don't claim to be an expert on my favorite Kong, just throwing thoughts at a sounding board.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Fair enough lol, and that came out more condescending than intended.
Edit: retracting half of conversation

Just seems kind of dull that no one has attempted to adapt to playing against the character in over a month's worth of play when there are greater threats in the game. Made even sadder when diddy mains have not really attempted to explore other options of the character in over a month's worth of play with the exception of the new to the character players. It has just been nerf recovery fair forward smash dash attack bananas du.mb etc. Perhaps its the lack of top placements with the character that created the stagnation in play, or the oversatuation has created a universally accepted style of play that is overpowering at intermediate level, but doesn't work at a high level of play.

 

[Conti]

And yet Diddy players do it constantly during a match. The complaints about bananas are ridiculous, and that horse is so beaten that it's now a puddle on the ground.

I was at a local a couple weeks ago and ran through the bracket until I played against someone playing Pit that was a Diddy main in Brawl. His item control was much better than mine, which meant that I had to up my game to keep control of my bananas. I ended up losing that set because his item control was so much better, and he gave me a few tips afterwards on how to improve. This idea that Diddy bananas are this unstoppable force of death and destruction is ludicrous. Bananas aren't rocket science, spend 2 weeks playing Diddy and you'll learn the basics of item control/counter-control.

Hi defish ^^, its so ironic i see this thread like 4months later... but Yeah bananna control is insane in P:M Diddy is honestly incredible, [I main Pit/Diddy now, i said f my brawl diddy lol], Come thru again sometime i'll show u more, im still in experimental mode with diddy finding new tricks out every time i play, xD
One thing i must say is his bananna game was nerfed in sense of tech chase options increased, but at the same time, his banana game was expanded in terms of positional options and pickup/toss/drop options, its insane and im still trying to fully understand it.
They arent going to nerf diddys bananas because the metagame for it isnt established, people playing diddy are understanding his options, and people playing against him are trying to understand the item game and trip tech chases n stuff.
They will nerf his recovery and even when they do, the hype will stop which would be great, and at the same time, true diddy mains are going to push him further into something much similar to mangos falco in terms of inputs and tech chase options. I cant wait to see it get there. Random 2 cents i have so much more to say about everything discussed i just dont have time atm xD

 

[Shokio]

I have to agree with Praxis here. Seriously, when has Diddy even placed top 5 at a major tourney? Why do characters need to be nerfed if they aren't even a problem in the meta game? Diddy has features that people don't like, but they aren't degenerate in any way. Until Diddy starts being in the top 5 on a regular basis I don't think this kind of stuff is even worth considering.

His bananas and jet pack are some of his only unique and powerful features as a character. Nerfing these means he will guaranteed never see any top tournament play.

The problem with this logic is, is that the moment someone DOES win a big tournament with a character, you'll have some people who'll say "NERF!!", and then some people who would say, "You're only saying that because that player won with that character."

For instance, there's tons of people who claim people want Mewtwo nerfed JUST because of EmuKiller's win at SKTAR. So, you saying he's fine right now BECAUSE he hasn't won, will mean that the moment he DOES win something, he'll have to be nerfed; by your logic.

Just to clarify and be on-topic, I think Diddy's design is fine for the most part. The only changes I'd like to see are the misfire barrels (I'm sure we can all agree on that), the Fair needs to be actually DI-able, and the FSmash needs a knockback nerf (it's stronger than DK's clap). That's pretty much it.

I'd probably say something about the distance of his recovery, but that's most likely going to be adjusted in 3.5 anyway.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Barrel misfire may end up staying since distance is being touched. Fair is literally the same as sheik fair with sweet spot making d I have minimum influence so don't know why all the hate. And forward smash hits twice making it prone to SDI, is usually done after banana contact and first hit may pop up opponent anyway. Then it is only higher knock back if both hits connect. One of his smashes was made slightly stronger(though I agree too strong putting it in context).

Is there a buff list coming anytime soon since fox continues winning with no nerfs in site? Three major nerfs will not help in any matchup, and decreases his ability to compete at hi level play on players that had a 13+year head start with their character.

Hopefully the s@x haters won't overly influence the changes to the character. I agree with most of the suggestions but will miss surviving low risk shine spikes from fox, or recover from mew two tilt spam to death with deep Kong.