worst ssbm character other than pichu

[Spak]

I'm just going to say no.

But I worked on finding a way to analyze MUs and compared them for a good 20 minutes... I'm proud of my results and thought the outcome was accurate, so why no?

 

[the muted smasher]

If You used the old match-up chart it's inherently wrong.

Also these is a serious bias for roy that has a dd grab/d-tilt that is good enough but I really think his platforming is to linear and his risk reward game overall is just terrible and people really people over rate weaknesses like watch, s l cancels/shield or pichu's self damage.

Watch has auto combos even on puff. People can say oh roy has up-b but she can sdi into it and live forever. And roy gives a lot of rest openings even compared to marth.

Just seen these common facts threw around about roy like they have the personal experience. Idk I play against a watch main a lot and we try to push his limits as hard as we can.

I was going somewhere but drunk

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

In Melee, most characters have some redeeming traits. Mewtwo has amazing throws and recovery, Roy has a great SHFFL, Zelda's forward and back airs are ridiculously strong, Ness has great combos, Bowser has Up-B OoS, even G&W has some really good options. Even PICHU has great speed, combos and some good finishers. But poor Kirby has nothing but Kirbycide.

 

[EddyBearr]

The old matchup data is indeed exceedingly wrong. As the meta has advanced, Roy has become worse and worse, whereas Game & Watch has floated around "awful, but definitely not the most awful".

With that said, your matchup approach of "how many wins out of 100 sets" alongside character usage was a pretty good thing, and I've been working on this myself. However, I used my own personal matchup assessments which are no doubt biased and wrong on many accounts, though I'm still confident it's more accurate than Smash wiki charts.
My numbers by your method:
In ~2.5mil sets, Roy wins ~790K and G&W wins ~870K. G&W wins about 35%, whereas Roy wins about 32%.
[collapse=Total scores, for anyone interested]Total scores for anyone interested: out of 2,490,700 sets..

Fox should win ~1,354,000 sets or 54.4%
Falco should win ~1,335,000 sets or 53.6%
Sheik should win ~1,333,000 sets or 53.5%
Marth should win ~1,313,000 sets or 52.7%
Jigglypuff should win ~1,296,000 sets or 52.0%
Peach should win ~1,246,000 sets or 50.0%
Ice Climbers should win ~1,193,000 sets or 47.9%
Captain Falcon should win ~1,140,000 sets or 45.8%
Samus should win ~1,115,000 sets or 44.8%
Luigi should win ~1,080,000 sets or 43.4%
Dr. Mario should win ~1,079,000 sets or 43.3%
Mario should win ~1,046,000 sets or 42.0%
Pikachu should win ~1,032,000 sets or 41.4%
Ganondorf should win ~1,023,000 sets or 41.1%
Yoshi should win ~1,009,000 sets or 40.5%
Young Link should win 983,000 sets or 39.5%
Link should win 979,000 sets or 39.3%
Donkey Kong should win 939,000 sets or 37.7%
Zelda should win 938,000 sets or 37.7%
Mr. Game & Watch should win 867,000 sets or 34.8%
Kirby should win 818,000 or 32.8%
Mewtwo should win 797,000 sets or 32.0%
Roy should win 790,000 sets or 31.7%
Ness should win 784,000 sets or 31.5%
Pichu should win 731,000 sets or 29.3%
Bowser should win 665,000 sets or 26.7%[/collapse]

In Melee, most characters have some redeeming traits....Roy has a great SHFFL...But poor Kirby has nothing but Kirbycide.

Roy's movement and range would be redeeming traits long before his pretty bad SHFFL (fast is not the same as good, but the 2003 meta smash wiki didn't realize this.)
Kirby has several traits would would be considered redeeming qualities long before Kirbycide.

 

[the muted smasher]

Kirby ' s tilts are so good it's a shame

 

[FalconOwnage]

Zelda is the 2nd worst character (after Kirby, of course)

 

[Spak]

The old matchup data is indeed exceedingly wrong. As the meta has advanced, Roy has become worse and worse, whereas Game & Watch has floated around "awful, but definitely not the most awful".

With that said, your matchup approach of "how many wins out of 100 sets" alongside character usage was a pretty good thing, and I've been working on this myself. However, I used my own personal matchup assessments which are no doubt biased and wrong on many accounts, though I'm still confident it's more accurate than Smash wiki charts.
My numbers by your method:
In ~2.5mil sets, Roy wins ~790K and G&W wins ~870K. G&W wins about 35%, whereas Roy wins about 32%.
[collapse=Total scores, for anyone interested]Total scores for anyone interested: out of 2,490,700 sets..

Fox should win ~1,354,000 sets or 54.4%
Falco should win ~1,335,000 sets or 53.6%
Sheik should win ~1,333,000 sets or 53.5%
Marth should win ~1,313,000 sets or 52.7%
Jigglypuff should win ~1,296,000 sets or 52.0%
Peach should win ~1,246,000 sets or 50.0%
Ice Climbers should win ~1,193,000 sets or 47.9%
Captain Falcon should win ~1,140,000 sets or 45.8%
Samus should win ~1,115,000 sets or 44.8%
Luigi should win ~1,080,000 sets or 43.4%
Dr. Mario should win ~1,079,000 sets or 43.3%
Mario should win ~1,046,000 sets or 42.0%
Pikachu should win ~1,032,000 sets or 41.4%
Ganondorf should win ~1,023,000 sets or 41.1%
Yoshi should win ~1,009,000 sets or 40.5%
Young Link should win 983,000 sets or 39.5%
Link should win 979,000 sets or 39.3%
Donkey Kong should win 939,000 sets or 37.7%
Zelda should win 938,000 sets or 37.7%
Mr. Game & Watch should win 867,000 sets or 34.8%
Kirby should win 818,000 or 32.8%
Mewtwo should win 797,000 sets or 32.0%
Roy should win 790,000 sets or 31.7%
Ness should win 784,000 sets or 31.5%
Pichu should win 731,000 sets or 29.3%
Bowser should win 665,000 sets or 26.7%[/collapse]


Roy's movement and range would be redeeming traits long before his pretty bad SHFFL (fast is not the same as good, but the 2003 meta smash wiki didn't realize this.)
Kirby has several traits would would be considered redeeming qualities long before Kirbycide.

Yeah, I didn't know how old that MU information was... Either the community or the backroomers should make a new MU chart soon. I know there were a lot of threads that tried and failed to do this, but some group of people needs to make it.

Actually, now that I think about it, it should probably be the backroomers because people who are newer to the boards (myself included) probably have more bias than older, more experienced players.

Anyways, it's close (closer than I thought in my original analysis), but I still think Roy should be slightly above G&W; we can confirm or deny this whenever (or if ever) we get a new official MU chart

 

[the muted smasher]

More than half the cast lacks a real star smasher that can show what they can do. And even in the low tiers people play a lot more roy/link than any of the rest by a huge margin.

Melee is old but we haven't come close to pushing the game yet. And I'm not even talking about tuff outside of what we can do with our fingers, reaction and mental game

 

[EddyBearr]

Yeah, I didn't know how old that MU information was... Either the community or the backroomers should make a new MU chart soon. I know there were a lot of threads that tried and failed to do this, but some group of people needs to make it.

Actually, now that I think about it, it should probably be the backroomers because people who are newer to the boards (myself included) probably have more bias than older, more experienced players.

Anyways, it's close (closer than I thought in my original analysis), but I still think Roy should be slightly above G&W; we can confirm or deny this whenever (or if ever) we get a new official MU chart

Despite worse matchup spreads than G&W or even Kirby, I usually consider Mewtwo and Roy to be better than G&W & Kirby. I feel those characters have more room for exploitation of skill gaps between players than G&W does.

 

[Thegopher]

Have you seen Qerb play? He's taken sets off the moon, duck and almost zero.

 

[EddyBearr]

Have you seen Qerb play? He's taken sets off the moon, duck and almost zero.

QERB is really good and Game & Watch should not be slept on, but I still think Roy has a really big sword, big feet, and big hands. It's quite close imo, though.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Qerb's insane. I'm in his area, so I'd like to play him sooner or later.

 

[Dolla Pills]

You can try to Ken combo with Roy and then watch as your opponent meteor cancels the dair before they even fall past the stage and you are stuck and lag and die. Or your opponent just attacks you out of hitstun because all of Roy's moves are **** except for forward smash. Seriously, **** Roy.

 

[kingPiano]

You can try to Ken combo with Roy and then watch as your opponent meteor cancels the dair before they even fall past the stage and you are stuck and lag and die. Or your opponent just attacks you out of hitstun because all of Roy's moves are **** except for forward smash. Seriously, **** Roy.

D-tilt has more hitstun than Marth's, and his D-tilt pops up opponents for combos and F-smash/grab chains
Still has Marth's insane grab range - longest and fastest non-tether grab
His DED is effective and actually useful
His counter does 1.5x knockback and damage, it's actually great as a seldom used mix up tool if you can make reads and don't have the reaction time of a hippo.

It just sounds like you've really never played as Roy seriously or you are a casual trying to main Fox/Falco. As a Roy you really don't use Dair to meteor since the specific hitbox is at your shoulder and it's very hard to hit. Dair is also one his worst moves in general.

So yea he's not great but he's definitely above Kirby, Pichu, Bowser, and Mewtwo as the current tier list shows. He's got a flippin' sword with massive disjointed hitboxes just like Marth. He's also above G&W and Ness, I don't quite agree 100% with that. All three of kind of exist on the same spot IMO, each better at differing MUs.

 

[Dolla Pills]

D-tilt has more hitstun than Marth's, and his D-tilt pops up opponents for combos and F-smash/grab chains
Still has Marth's insane grab range - longest and fastest non-tether grab
His DED is effective and actually useful
His counter does 1.5x knockback and damage, it's actually great as a seldom used mix up tool if you can make reads and don't have the reaction time of a hippo.

It just sounds like you've really never played as Roy seriously or you are a casual trying to main Fox/Falco. As a Roy you really don't use Dair to meteor since the specific hitbox is at your shoulder and it's very hard to hit. Dair is also one his worst moves in general.

So yea he's not great but he's definitely above Kirby, Pichu, Bowser, and Mewtwo as the current tier list shows. He's got a flippin' sword with massive disjointed hitboxes just like Marth. He's also above G&W and Ness, I don't quite agree 100% with that. All three of kind of exist on the same spot IMO, each better at differing MUs.

My point was not that Roy is awful and has nothing, but that he crushed my dreams.

 

[Thegopher]

Maybe @Sethlon and @ QERB can add input for roy vs g&w on the tier list.

 

[EddyBearr]

G&W has better matchups, Roy is probably more viable because he has a big sword and big movement. G&W is more consistent and slightly better, but Roy allows more exploitation of skill gaps between players. This is my opinion on that matter.

 

[QERB]

i think g&w is way better.

i don't recall any roys taking sets off of any notable players in the last several years
I also think roy has some unwinnable matchups in mid/high level of play where as g&w doesn't (sheik, samus, marth).

my opinion is probably skewed, but prove me wrong!

 

[kingPiano]

i think g&w is way better.

i don't recall any roys taking sets off of any notable players in the last several years
I also think roy has some unwinnable matchups in mid/high level of play where as g&w doesn't (sheik, samus, marth).

my opinion is probably skewed, but prove me wrong!

M2K as I'm sure you know plays Roy in bracket often against seasoned players and noobs alike.
And I think pretty much anyone will agree his Roy is pretty lazy and not very polished. But it doesn't seem to matter since he has such great reading ability and technical speed.

In the past few years

He beat Strong Bad's DK at a Grand Finals with Roy (last stock was a 0-56% KO in less than 6 seconds on DK)
- DK is also a very unfavorable matchup for Roy -2 about a 30:70
He almost beat Toph's Fox on FD (1 stock left pretty much) with Roy.
I've seen a few other examples where he's taken on high level players with Roy and either beat or kept it close. Most probably aren't recorded because I mean who wants a record of being beaten by a Roy?

I consider G&W and Roy about even, G&W dies way too early because he's as light as Pichu pretty much. and he doesn't have easy combos, Roy has a few 0-death combos on flat and platforms (especially on Fox/Falco) and he has the same insane grab range as Marth. G&W has the serious disadvantage of not being able to L-Cancel half his aerials. G&W in general actually has worse matchups with the high tiers...I think many would agree with that. "Unwinnable"....hmm very odd.

I consider you an above average player, so your skill with G&W can often transcend tiers. There really isn't a Roy player with that same skill level or potential right now or ever. Sethlon, Ripple, (both don't play Melee anymore) or Pyro really aren't close; they aren't like an AmSa or an Axe for Melee. If Neo had kept at Roy and stayed active I'm sure he'd probably be able to challenge most high tier high skilled players today. There is just a lack of mains, much like there used to be a lack of mains for Yoshi....and then AmSa came along.

 

[EddyBearr]

Congrats, @ QERB ! Beating The Moon officially makes you above average and is on par with beating a PMDT non-competitor's low tier or losing to Toph! I'm pretty jealousy.

In seriousness, do you think G&W is nearing full development? Disregarding highly unexplored stuff for every character like shield-drop combo set-ups.

 

[kingPiano]

Congrats, @ QERB ! Beating The Moon officially makes you above average and is on par with beating a PMDT non-competitor's low tier or losing to Toph! I'm pretty jealousy.

In seriousness, do you think G&W is nearing full development? Disregarding highly unexplored stuff for every character like shield-drop combo set-ups.

Do you and QERB want a room?

So what do you consider QERB? A Smash God? Above average is a compliment and it's quite accurate. For a G&W player he's amazing (this is why he's known), but overall above average.

I like how most of your other posts actually seem agree with me, but then always try and pick a fight. It's typical internet behavior, kind of sad. I also like how you insult both Strong Bad and Toph, hypocritical too (not surprising)

 

[AJawesome07]

I know this is unrelated to what this thread is on now, but there's no way pichu is the worst char in the game. Yeah pichu's bad, and there is no benefit to using pichu over pikachu, but I think bowser is the worst. Everyone knows why bowser's bad, but I haven't seen anyone bring up the fact that bowser's tech roll is completely useless.

 

[QERB]

M2K as I'm sure you know plays Roy in bracket often against seasoned players and noobs alike.
And I think pretty much anyone will agree his Roy is pretty lazy and not very polished. But it doesn't seem to matter since he has such great reading ability and technical speed.

In the past few years

He beat Strong Bad's DK at a Grand Finals with Roy (last stock was a 0-56% KO in less than 6 seconds on DK)
- DK is also a very unfavorable matchup for Roy -2 about a 30:70
He almost beat Toph's Fox on FD (1 stock left pretty much) with Roy.
I've seen a few other examples where he's taken on high level players with Roy and either beat or kept it close. Most probably aren't recorded because I mean who wants a record of being beaten by a Roy?

I consider G&W and Roy about even, G&W dies way too early because he's as light as Pichu pretty much. and he doesn't have easy combos, Roy has a few 0-death combos on flat and platforms (especially on Fox/Falco) and he has the same insane grab range as Marth. G&W has the serious disadvantage of not being able to L-Cancel half his aerials. G&W in general actually has worse matchups with the high tiers...I think many would agree with that. "Unwinnable"....hmm very odd.

I consider you an above average player, so your skill with G&W can often transcend tiers. There really isn't a Roy player with that same skill level or potential right now or ever. Sethlon, Ripple, (both don't play Melee anymore) or Pyro really aren't close; they aren't like an AmSa or an Axe for Melee. If Neo had kept at Roy and stayed active I'm sure he'd probably be able to challenge most high tier high skilled players today. There is just a lack of mains, much like there used to be a lack of mains for Yoshi....and then AmSa came along.

I'm not sure where you're basing a lot of your info from. I'm assuming that a lot of it a product of wishful thinking. I disagree with almost everything you say here, or find it irrelevant.

M2K beating/almost beating players he is considerably more skilled than with a char he plays solely for stream requests and entertainment value should not be an accurate depiction of Roy's potential in the meta.

-Yes G&W dies early, agreed.
-Yes Roy's grab is good
-G&W doesn't have easy combos? D-throw to aerial auto combos the entire cast (u-throw for fastfallers) regardless of DI to unreasonable %'s with an easy frame leniency.
-I haven't seen any 0-death Roy combos from a Roy against a player with an adequate understanding of combo DI anytime as of late, this sounds more theoretical than anything. Many of his combos can be escaped through proper combo DI or CC'ing his weak/set-knockback aerials.
-G&W not being able to L-cancel 3 aerials, 2 of which are safe on shield as is (b-air/n-air), are not close to his biggest flaw as a character. His lack of shield, weight, and very slow tech-options are far more detrimental to him.
-I disagree that G&W has worse matchups with high tiers than Roy, and actual results do reinforce this, as opposed to theory-based matchup charts or wherever you based your opinion from.

As much as I'd love to believe that Roy under-performs solely due to lack of play/people who main him (since I think he's a cool/fun character), I don't think it's true. Yoshi is a much stronger character with higher potential, and Roy isn't comparable in this way IMO.

EDIT: @ EddyBearr No I don't think g&w is near full development even disregarding said conditions.

 

[kingPiano]

I'm not sure where you're basing a lot of your info from. I'm assuming that a lot of it a product of wishful thinking. I disagree with almost everything you say here, or find it irrelevant.

M2K beating/almost beating players he is considerably more skilled than with a char he plays solely for stream requests and entertainment value should not be an accurate depiction of Roy's potential in the meta.

-Yes G&W dies early, agreed.
-Yes Roy's grab is good
-G&W doesn't have easy combos? D-throw to aerial auto combos the entire cast (u-throw for fastfallers) regardless of DI to unreasonable %'s with an easy frame leniency.
-I haven't seen any 0-death Roy combos from a Roy against a player with an adequate understanding of combo DI anytime as of late, this sounds more theoretical than anything. Many of his combos can be escaped through proper combo DI or CC'ing his weak/set-knockback aerials.
-G&W not being able to L-cancel 3 aerials, 2 of which are safe on shield as is (b-air/n-air), are not close to his biggest flaw as a character. His lack of shield, weight, and very slow tech-options are far more detrimental to him.
-I disagree that G&W has worse matchups with high tiers than Roy, and actual results do reinforce this, as opposed to theory-based matchup charts or wherever you based your opinion from.

As much as I'd love to believe that Roy under-performs solely due to lack of play/people who main him (since I think he's a cool/fun character), I don't think it's true. Yoshi is a much stronger character with higher potential, and Roy isn't comparable in this way IMO.

EDIT: @ EddyBearr No I don't think g&w is near full development even disregarding said conditions.

Okay QERB show me some matches of you beating some respectable Sheiks, Marths, and Samus's or other G&W players beating them consistently. The only one I recall was you getting beat by a mediocre Sheik player (I think it was Spawn)

What are the results you speak of? Have you actually consistently beat same skilled or higher skilled high tier players, or seen another G&W player? I honestly must have missed them and everyone else seems to miss them as well since G&W has always been under Roy on the tier list (G&W even hitting rock bottom last place once). It's also not some huge conspiracy that the consensus on MUs are tilted in Roy's favor with the high-tiers. Anyways if you have some G&W matches you want to show me I'm down to gain some matchup knowledge and I don't mind being proven wrong.

I really like G&W; has some of my favorite moves with long lasting generous hit-boxes, but IMO Roy has much better tools for dealing with most of the top tiers. He's got chain throws on spacies and D-tilt/grab chains up to 80% into F-smash or DED combos and many platform set ups and combos on Marth/Sheik (edguarding is pretty easy especially on Fox and Falco). And I'm not sure where you're getting your misinformation but D-tilt > F-smash and Fair > F-smash are pretty much guaranteed (they can try and DI but you can just pivot the F-smash or not and the sword hit-box has enough reach to hit always, Shiek and Marth require the weak part of D-tilt when in KO percent).

Also when were talking going against high tiers movement is a huge aspect of what makes them high tier and G&W is not even in the same ballpark. Roy has a very fast ground speed and a very fast SHFFL (used to be considered the best - great SH and falls fast, faster than Marth's), has a long wave dash, DD, can change momentum in air with side-B, and the grab range (again I stress it). If a character can't even keep up with a high tier's movement then it's really tough to even be a positive matchup. For instance Jiggly is slow on the ground but she's so high on the tier list in part because of her air mobility and bair which can take her 1/4 way across the screen in reach and back again.

The whole Roy "unwinnable" thing was just very strange to hear anyone say, especially when we're talking about G&W in comparison...

 

[xChaos]

@ kingPiano you keep on bringing into question the credibility of the players you are disagreeing with, saying they have not personally taken sets off of "respectable" players. You then fail to show any results of your own that give you more credibility than the person you are discrediting.

It's a bit hypocritical to hold others to standards you don't have for yourself.

 

[kingPiano]

@ kingPiano you keep on bringing into question the credibility of the players you are disagreeing with, saying they have not personally taken sets off of "respectable" players. You then fail to show any results of your own that give you more credibility than the person you are discrediting.

It's a bit hypocritical to hold others to standards you don't have for yourself.

xChaos c'mon it's rude to butt into a conversation. I'm talking to QERB, he's a well established player I'm not questioning anything. I'm simply asking if he has any recorded matches of him and high tiers that I haven't seen yet (since he mentioned them)

Need to stop stalking me man.

 

[xChaos]

xChaos c'mon it's rude to butt into a conversation. I'm talking to QERB, he's a well established player I'm not questioning anything. I'm simply asking if he has any recorded matches of him and high tiers that I haven't seen yet (since he mentioned them)

Need to stop stalking me man.

Dude this is literally a public forum, if you want to have a conversation privately where people can't butt in this isn't the place to do it. Also, you weren't just asking things, you were definitely being argumentative and overly assertive of your points. Provocative tone and language like "prove me wrong" shows that.

I came to the thread because of the discussion on low tier characters and I thought I may be able to contribute, not because I saw you in it.

 

[the muted smasher]

Pichu is better than roy just stop it man just stop.

Qerb does his thing and gets results. Also do You auto cancel the start up of bair? Like hitboxes will come out sometimes You see the turtles head but it auto cancels instead of having to tech or risk 2nd jumping and getting set up for a gimp

 

[kingPiano]

Dude this is literally a public forum, if you want to have a conversation privately where people can't butt in this isn't the place to do it. Also, you weren't just asking things, you were definitely being argumentative and overly assertive of your points. Provocative tone and language like "prove me wrong" shows that.

I came to the thread because of the discussion on low tier characters and I thought I may be able to contribute, not because I saw you in it.

Okay so now you are literally an idiot

I never said "prove me wrong", that was QERB

the guy whose post you liked and are trying to rally behind....

i think g&w is way better.

i don't recall any roys taking sets off of any notable players in the last several years
I also think roy has some unwinnable matchups in mid/high level of play where as g&w doesn't (sheik, samus, marth).

my opinion is probably skewed, but prove me wrong!

reading 101

 

[the muted smasher]

$100 mm qerb

 

[xChaos]

Okay so now you are literally an idiot

I never said "prove me wrong", that was QERB

the guy whose post you liked and are trying to rally behind....




reading 101

I'll agree that was a result of my liberal use of quotation marks. You did, however, say "I don't mind being proven wrong", but again it was the tone and context that makes it confrontational. I'm not rallying behind QERB, everything I said would apply regardless of who he was.

Also might I note the continued lack of acknowledgement of the other points in my post.

 

[kingPiano]

I'll agree that was a result of my liberal use of quotation marks. You did, however, say "I don't mind being proven wrong", but again it was the tone and context that makes it confrontational. I'm not rallying behind QERB, everything I said would apply regardless of who he was.

Also might I note the continued lack of acknowledgement of the other points in my post.

Jesus christ you are insane...

When I say I don't mind being proven wrong....I don't. How is that hard to understand....When it comes to G&W I can't have possibly seen all the vids, I couldn't find any good matches of QERB vs a comparable high tier. Perhaps that just means I don't know how to search for it and I imagine he already has some good examples since he played the matches after all.

Like I told you based on some of the posts you've already made, nothing you say seems to be very credible so I won't waste time responding to any bizzare or non-sense points you bring up like "Pichu is better than Roy". The argument you are looking for will go nowhere, and it's not worth the time wasted for either of us. If you bring up something relevant or topical and drop the drama I will respond.

 

[EddyBearr]

Qerb vs.:
WIN: The Moon (Marth): www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMajdpoMUbc
-The Moon is a top 30 player in the world.

WIN: Inui (Sheik): www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cZ8M-raLOs
-Inui is about as good as Strong Bad is, which is truthfully "not that good".

"Almost Win": Zero (Fox): www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FNM6X1yMwc
-ZeRo is WAY better than Toph at melee, QERB was extremely close to beating someone significantly better than him, whereas Mew2King was 2-stocked by someone WAY worse than him. QERB should have won this -- Mew2King definitely should not have beaten Toph (and FD is Roy's best stage. Pokemon Stadium probably isn't good for G&W.)

WIN: Chain-Ace (Falco): www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4gnIpx9hbo ; www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EJ_2QHU5ik
-Chain-Ace is around the skill level of Strong Bad (both 273rd at Apex 2015). Strong Bad isn't that good -- he's just really famous, and he will often admit that he's a PM player, not a melee player.

WIN: Captain Smuckers (Captain Falcon): www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm8-LxpAiwc
-Captain Smuckers is about as good as Strong Bad (209th at Apex 2015)

WIN: DizzKidBoogie (Ice Climbers): www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVWqmo3zFP4 ; www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw86u5mY248 ; www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSI9pUIFey0
-DizzKidBoogie is definitely better than Strong Bad (113th at Apex 2015)

"Almost-Took-A-Game": The Moon (Marth): www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac26C70LIls
-This isn't very significant, but this is more significant and far closer than M2K vs Toph was.

"Took-A-Game": Abate (Luigi): www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmoifVwRzjQ ; www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcghml-Il0c
-Abate is WAY better than Toph.

WIN: Duck (Samus): www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHK6bt3_tL4
-Game 1 not recorded, QERB won on FoD. Duck is WAY better than Toph.

"Almost Win": StriCNYN3 (Falco): www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FdnlYaRkVg
-StriCNYN3 is better than Toph

WIN: Zanguzen (Falco): www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOpLq_jlfU ; www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuBER4FMzHI
-Zanguzen is top 50 according to Melee It On Me, far better than Toph.


Strong Bad has a lost to Random Roy Master 62 before: www.youtube.com/watch?v=023P-diSzzQ Strong Bad is well-known, but not necessarily that good.

 

[xChaos]

Jesus christ you are insane...

When I say I don't mind being proven wrong....I don't. How is that hard to understand....When it comes to G&W I can't have possibly seen all the vids, I couldn't find any good matches of QERB vs a comparable high tier. Perhaps that just means I don't know how to search for it and I imagine he already has some good examples since he played the matches after all.

Like I told you based on some of the posts you've already made, nothing you say seems to be very credible so I won't waste time responding to any bizzare or non-sense points you bring up like "Pichu is better than Roy". The argument you are looking for will go nowhere, and it's not worth the time wasted for either of us. If you bring up something relevant or topical and drop the drama I will respond.

Dude just stop it. I don't pretend to know stuff that I don't know, in terms of hitboxes and frame data, If I say something is true I only do so because I've tested it extensively.

 

[EddyBearr]

Pichu is better than roy just stop it man just stop.

Qerb does his thing and gets results. Also do You auto cancel the start up of bair? Like hitboxes will come out sometimes You see the turtles head but it auto cancels instead of having to tech or risk 2nd jumping and getting set up for a gimp

I don't really consider Pichu better than Roy. When you pay attention to Roy's "Middle-tipper" or whatever they call it, an abnormally strong hitbox/extension in the middle of his sword that allows Roy to still have solid disjoint, he's still able to challenge and beat/stuff a lot, something which as far as I know, Pichu has a very hard time doing.

With that said, they are both "bottom tier" (along with Mewtwo/G&W/Ness/Kirby/Bowser) to me can't see any of them ever being even "Low Tier", because all these characters are really quite horrendous.

 

[the muted smasher]

Here's my train of thought on why pichu is better than roy.

Honestly people don't get how good of a nair pichu has, I can directly beat all the main ffers air moves besides their bairs and falcons upair. Pika, s nair isn't disjointed like pichu, s nor does it have frame advantage nor is pikachu s empty as powerful as pichu, s compete with twice the grab range.

Pichu, s sh covers 1/3 fd and fox is about 1/4 and the fact that pichu has longer and faster dashes than roy let's him really abuse that massive range far better than roy can. While yeah roy can do more w it a solid grab in most cases, he can not boost as safe, as stage grabbing move, nor force shields to get grabs like pichu could.

And pichu's nair besides also fulfills roys retreating fair by aggressively running over approaches.

And people will disagree with me on this but I really believe pichu has a "small" edge on sheik in the neutral game. Now I can't really mess with a sheik edge camping but outside of that here's how it breaks down.

Sheik no matter if she is platform camping, dding, or just staying loose in general is revolving around the threat of a f tilt when she really doesn't have a safe approach other than grab, needles (more than one) and fair.

Grab loses to attack first off and sheik jumping is a 50-50 for both in I can't punish it but what she does or doesn't do after.

So for her defense. If I sh I can pull back and land with 2 frames and d tilt any quick approach if I she her move forward at all.

But it's hard to make that read same reason it would be if fox do a sh and did notice and stood outside Your grab range dding.

But if she does nothing to punish me when I land at point of her dash attack then I can move a little forward and I am outside of sheiks range to be able to react to whatever I am doing and I have the option to shffl nair safe on block/cc or to run up grab/ space d tilt so she can't grab and I'm proactive with a cc.

And directly attacking and reading a dd is very hard if they're on point simply because You have to cross into the threat of nair range. Basically pichu has safer bait options that can cover a few options should he be read on top of having a larger range of affect to swoop in and punish.

Sheik pichu is 70-30 or 80-20 but pichu loses mostly because of weaker punish options.

I feel that is a good showcase on pichu, s nair game not that he doesn't have other approach tools.

Just I can't believe in roy when he has the most unwinnable match-ups in the game besides maybe bowser (idk enough to place him)

 

[EddyBearr]

@ the muted smasher
I have this mindset that against Pichu, most characters with moves which have at least 2 of the following: (good range, good disjoint, long duration, quick start-up, little endlag) while also having a means to deal with thunderjolt (even if just modest movement like Falco has) can just eat space against Pichu pretty freely, since they can at least trade with Pichu which Pichu really wouldn't want to do. I thus think the characters Pichu would do best against are Zelda, Mewtwo, and Bowser.

Pichu's got a great nair, but I feel like its disjoint is greatly over-stated so it doesn't cover much space in mm and is very close to the very center of is hurtbox.

I don't consider any matchup "unwinnable" but there are some matchups which stand-out as just plain atrocious like Bowser-Sheik or Ice Climbers-Peach. I think Pichu only has one or two matchups like that (Ice Climbers, and maybe Sheik. I think Sheik-Pichu is 75-25) but Roy has like 5+. Roy definitely has, imo, the most "atrocious matchups" of any character besides Bowser.

How is Pichu's (2nd usage, staled^1) nair in frame advantage on crouch-cancelled hit? Falco / Samus / Doc

 

[the muted smasher]

The only note worthy air approach Pichu doesn't flat out stuff would be luigi, s, peach's fc game, and gannon, s being able to stop most the rush down cast with Your own is huge for the neutral game both offense and defensive.

Pichu is worse vs zedla than he is about most. That's a really bad match-up. His worst mu by far is luigi because he has too many auto death combos and there is no correct spacing for nair because his d smash is to fast and he slides when You cross him up.

Ics are doable, but I need more exp.

Pichu, s nair is a 6 frame L cancel and I said empties are an option and even if I didn't cross up(get a 2nd nair when they whiff) if I had 2 frames of stun doc/samus, s d smash would still give me a lot of time to shield.



His best match-ups are marios, falcon, gannon, and other ffers if You are feeling the zoning game.

But the biggest issue with pichu, s approach is only his feet are disjointed and it takes a lot of focus to keep hammering out options all d at and pichu can't do much damage sadly

Amazing difficult neutral game very weak punish

 

[EddyBearr]

Interesting. We have someone who uses Pichu as a serious secondary here in Minnesota (beat my Young Link in tournament.. I was so shamed. Worse than losing to Kirby) as well as a few Zelda mains. The Zelda main I talk to the most thinks Pichu might have an advantage (or not, but it's close) on Zelda because of his tomahawk, mobility, and nair. Tomahawk up-smash was a common KO move.

 

[the muted smasher]

Tomahawk/empties are huge for pichu so I get that. I have a mix of experience against the lake and vs random crappy passive zedla players. Vs the bad zedla players they matches felt to close and vs the lake, well I was waiting for my boat to land when blown out of the water.

I really think if someone could really flesh out of his nair and combo game we'd see some big plays worth noting. And I think You'd could agree if someone playing Pichu always hit ffers out of the air with his disjointed kick that's be some real meta to wwatch