Wood Man's Treehouse: A Leaf Shield Guide

[Doval]

Skull Barrier the worst of the three? It really shines against Robin - it'll reflect Thoron and lets you ignore Arcfire while approaching. Also, it's not instant - it activates when the skulls show up, which is quick but not 1 frame. It's also useful against Bowser and Charizard's flamethrower, other Mega Man's charge shots and R.O.B.'s laser, all of which are transcendent (Leaf Shield won't stop them). Not to mention stopping gyros, Crash Bombs, lemons, Metal Blades, arrows, blasters, bombs...It shuts down most attempts to play keep away.

I'm not convinced thrown Leaf Shield is an effective edgeguard. The knockback and stun is really tiny. It's not even clear to me it's a hindrance, since the knockback is diagonal up, which resets their falling speed and they get extra chances to use Up or Side Bs, plus the time to set up and throw Leaf Shield is significant. For example if I were Fox or Falco, I could illusion into it, Ike could Quick Draw, Marthcina can Dashing Assault which is their favorite neutral B, Kirby could Jumping Inhale, Peach could Peach Bomber...I'd get a lot of distance at the expense of a paltry 4%.

It's worth pointing out that Plant Barrier petals do break, but I don't know yet if they break based on damage or from taking two hits. It's not something that comes up often but it could matter with multihit moves.

Otherwise, great writeup.

 

[Locke 06]

True. Until this gets tested against a human this is mostly theorycraft. I'll let you all know once I've had a chance to execute this against some poor unsuspecting scrub on For Glory. Of course, that would require him not to roll dodge spam all the damn time, which seems to be all the rage with FG scrubs these days...

Find a person who knows what you're doing to test if they can get out after the initial hit. FG is not the right place to test combos.

 

[ENKER]

Skull Barrier the worst of the three? It really shines against Robin - it'll reflect Thoron and lets you ignore Arcfire while approaching. Also, it's not instant - it activates when the skulls show up, which is quick but not 1 frame. It's also useful against Bowser and Charizard's flamethrower, other Mega Man's charge shots and R.O.B.'s laser, all of which are transcendent (Leaf Shield won't stop them). Not to mention stopping gyros, Crash Bombs, lemons, Metal Blades, arrows, blasters, bombs...It shuts down most attempts to play keep away.

I'm not convinced thrown Leaf Shield is an effective edgeguard. The knockback and stun is really tiny. It's not even clear to me it's a hindrance, since the knockback is diagonal up, which resets their falling speed and they get extra chances to use Up or Side Bs, plus the time to set up and throw Leaf Shield is significant. For example if I were Fox or Falco, I could illusion into it, Ike could Quick Draw, Marthcina can Dashing Assault which is their favorite neutral B, Kirby could Jumping Inhale, Peach could Peach Bomber...I'd get a lot of distance at the expense of a paltry 4%.

It's worth pointing out that Plant Barrier petals do break, but I don't know yet if they break based on damage or from taking two hits. It's not something that comes up often but it could matter with multihit moves.

Otherwise, great writeup.

Good point. I'd like to hear Cop's rebuttal to the edgeguard thing.

 

[ChopperDave]

@ ChopperDave , you should make a similar thread about Crash Bombs.

I'm flattered you think that, but I haven't actually played around with Crash Bomb outside of the standard uses (baiting dashes/rolls, shield pressure, covering recoveries to stage, combos into bair).

Maybe @ Locke 06 has some more clever ideas to share?

Skull Barrier the worst of the three? It really shines against Robin - it'll reflect Thoron and lets you ignore Arcfire while approaching. Also, it's not instant - it activates when the skulls show up, which is quick but not 1 frame. It's also useful against Bowser and Charizard's flamethrower, other Mega Man's charge shots and R.O.B.'s laser, all of which are transcendent (Leaf Shield won't stop them). Not to mention stopping gyros, Crash Bombs, lemons, Metal Blades, arrows, blasters, bombs...It shuts down most attempts to play keep away.

I'm not convinced thrown Leaf Shield is an effective edgeguard. The knockback and stun is really tiny. It's not even clear to me it's a hindrance, since the knockback is diagonal up, which resets their falling speed and they get extra chances to use Up or Side Bs, plus the time to set up and throw Leaf Shield is significant. For example if I were Fox or Falco, I could illusion into it, Ike could Quick Draw, Marthcina can Dashing Assault which is their favorite neutral B, Kirby could Jumping Inhale, Peach could Peach Bomber...I'd get a lot of distance at the expense of a paltry 4%.

It's worth pointing out that Plant Barrier petals do break, but I don't know yet if they break based on damage or from taking two hits. It's not something that comes up often but it could matter with multihit moves.

Otherwise, great writeup.

Just because I think SB is the worst of the three doesn't mean I think it's COMPLETELY useless. It may be worth taking in certain match ups, such as campy Robin.

That said, I think what makes LS and PB special are those rotating hitboxes. Lose those, and you lose a lot of options, even against keep-away snipers like Link and Samus. To me, SB amounts to a slower, less damaging, less reflective version of Falco's reflector--the only difference being that I can send it forward while walking forward rather than having to short hop it. (Woohoo.) It may be useful in some contexts, but still not all that great compared to what LS or PB gives you. That's why I can't really recommend taking SB over LS or PB, even in the match ups where it seems most effective.

As for edgeguarding, I usually set up a LS immediately after I send them flying off screen with a fsmash or bair, so that it's ready to throw just as they snap out of their launch frames. Usually at this point they must recover mid-to-low, which is where a thrown LS (followed up with a MB and other aerials) or Leafstool seems to be the most dangerous. FWIW, thrown FS kills falling speed but it also kills forward momentum, so it's best used to stuff long horizontal recoveries and set up follow up attacks.

Also, don't forget that you can air dodge toward them with LS active to kill their momentum, then follow up with a nair gimp if you time it right.

ETA: I do agree that thrown LS isn't great against certain characters with good horizontal recovery moves that replenish on hit, like Ike. It really shines as a way to negate double jumps. You can use it to slap Peach out of her float, for example.

 

[Vonn Hennings]

My friend always said, "The leaf shield is terrible, never use it." This thread changed his mind right away, and he mains Megaman. Along with ZSS and the froggy ninja. xD I also experiment with the leaf shield and have found that it is just an excellent way to lock an opponent into a block.

 

[Doval]

I'm flattered you think that, but I haven't actually played around with Crash Bomb outside of the standard uses (baiting dashes/rolls, shield pressure, covering recoveries to stage, combos into bair).

Maybe @ Locke 06 has some more clever ideas to share?



Just because I think Skull Barrier is the worst of the three doesn't mean I think it's COMPLETELY useless. It may be worth taking in certain match ups, such as campy Robin.

That said, I think what makes LS and PB special are those rotating hitboxes. Lose those, and you lose a lot of options those moves give you, even against keep-away snipers like Link and Samus. To me, Skull Barrier amounts to a slower, less damaging, less reflective version of Falco's reflector--the only difference being that I can send it forward while walking/dashing forward rather than having to short hop it. (Woohoo.) It may be useful in some contexts, but still not all that great compared to what LS or PB gives you.

As for edgeguarding, I usually set up a LS either immediately after I send them flying off screen, of after I've successfully gimped their double jump with a nair or bair. Usually at this point they must recover mid-to-low, which is where a thrown LS (followed up with a MB and other aerials) or Leafstool seems to be the most dangerous. FWIW, thrown FS kills falling speed but it also kills forward momentum, so it's best used to stuff long horizontal recoveries.

Also, don't forget that you can air dodge toward them with LS active to kill their momentum, then follow up with a nair gimp if you time it right.

The thing is, in the matchups where Skull Barrier helps, it REALLY helps. I've had matches go to time against Robin using Samus because between Thoron and Fire Wall (which is effectively a PK Fire that activates even if it doesn't hit) they can mount a strong defense. Skull Barrier is quick enough to send back Thoron on reaction (I've done it and it kills) and lets you move forward while the opponent knows he can't shoot anything. They can't really stop you because you can still shield if they try to go into melee. Once you've closed the gap, odds are they've got their backs against the edge and lemons will eat quick projectiles while preventing slow ones and charging. It effectively forces them to fight on your terms.

Consider the alternative against them. If you so much as think about Metal Blade, Crash Bomb or Leaf Shield while lined up with ROBin outside of lemon range you're going to eat a Thoron or laser, and while you're popped up they can charge it again.

Link can mount a very effective defense now that he has boomerangs that hit both ways again and he can throw bombs up close without self damage. His dash attack is crazy strong so the risk to you if he succeeds on a mixup is much greater than the risk to him, and his out of shield options trump ours so you can't get too ballsy. Power Bow is dangerous from a distance, it does 20% fully charged and anything with more that 10% kills lemons. You don't want to let him set the pace. Sheik's needles are also a lot less threatening when you have Skull Barrier.

That aside I don't think you can get away with stuffing mid-air jumps against most people. Any hit hard enough to buy you the time for Leaf Shield is high knockback and the very first thing they ought to be doing out of hitstun is doing a forward jump to cancel momentum. If they're not in danger of dying off the side then they're close enough to the edge to simply air dodge any attempts at hitting them in the mid-high region and using their jump to recover from deep below, or they're so close you don't have time to Leaf Shield. Plus, with that amount of time you could set up a Leaf Shield with Rush and go for a footstool at any height with both your mid-air jump and Up B intact instead of gambling on off-stage f-airs.

 

[ChopperDave]

IIRC I've been able to hit people out of that forward jump that cancels momentum from the knock back "cannonball" effect.

You have to put up LS immediately after landing the hit that sends them off stage and then throw it ASAP, but it's doable. It usually catches them out of the DJ and sends them right back to where they started.

I do agree that LS isn't the right tool unless you knock them back so far the magnifying glass comes out. Otherwise MB and bair are better. Though sometimes I like to throw up LS as if to warn, "Don't even try to recover low or you know what's coming."

To be fair, I haven't had the chance to use SB against a really good Link or Robin main, so I might be giving the move short shrift. I have tried it against a really good R.O.B. and didn't find it all that useful.

I have played against a fair number of really good Robins and Links on FG, and I don't usually have too much trouble closing the distance with them using Mega Man's default specials. He's got a lot of tools at his disposal, with or without SB. This isn't to say that SB can't be useful, but I don't know if it's a total game changer.

And hey, sometimes walking forward and power shielding is all it really takes to get into lemon range. Other characters are forced to do that, so why can't we?

 

[Locke 06]

I have been summoned.

CB follow ups are pretty simple and I feel like the Mega Man guide / move set thread will cover it enough. Off of an explosion, knowing the angle it launches at is key, and off of that you can do whatever you want. I have been opting for Dairs at low% and BAirs at higher %s due to the difficulty of aiming the dair (I should start trying uair, due to %). Landing CB --> Dair --> sweet spot utilt can be done, but it is no doubt one of the harder combos to pull off in terms of timing. CB --> footstool is also a thing (although I'm terrible at footstooling) but follow-ups after a footstool have not yet been found.

If the opponent is shielding, charge an fsmash. If both connect, it takes down ~ 90% of a fresh shield and allows you to dtilt without worry of shield grabbing (as well as trying to destroy their shield). Rolling out of a CB explosion can be tough, but people do that and punishing with a well timed fsmash can work. Air dodging an explosion should be punished with some sort of aerial and running to pass off the bomb can be punished with fsmash or dsmash (the explosion of the bomb can cover your ending lag).

All in all, just be creative. My best "oh my god, that was amazing" moments have come off of CB's. Other than CB Dair Utilt, I landed a CB off stage --> stage spike --> dair for a low% kill and it was as cool as it sounds.

Edit: Something else is using hitstun to your advantage. Grabbing allows both you and your opponent to get hit and launched in the same direction. If you have less %, you get less hitstun, therefore you can BAir / FAir before your opponent.

Also depending on where the CB is placed, it can "shield stab." This is especially true on larger/taller characters. "Headshotting" with CB makes it more likely for the explosion to hit.

 

[Sleek Media]

Very nice guide. I've mostly been using leaf shield to recover and create pressure on the ground. I will start experimenting with your techniques.

 

[Opana]

Plant Barrier, due to it lasting less, allows you to run off and fast fall, while still being able to recover after with I believe any recovery custom. This may be amazing versus Villager, possibly setitng up a dair.

Skull Barrier is an interesting move, as it doesn't damage unless thrown, in which each one seemingly has the potential to ht for 2%. Aside from that though, it's a reflective barrier, which could mean hell for a Greninja, especially so if it retains its reflective properties upon being thrown. Can make it back with any recovery as well.

Using beat allows you to recover with leaf shield after a run off fast fall with proper timing.

@ ChopperDave , you should make a similar thread about Crash Bombs.

I may be interested in at least helping with this

 

[Z1GMA]

I may be interested in at least helping with this

You'll be able to contribute as much as you like.
@fromundaman will start a CB Thread in a little while.

 

[Opana]

You'll be able to contribute as much as you like.
@fromundaman will start a CB Thread in a little while.

Alright, cool.

 

[ChopperDave]

I found another potentially useful Leaf Shield AT. I'm calling this one the LEAF SLIDE. Here's the video explainer:

To do this, perform either an empty full hop or a rising fair/bair, then double jump into a Leaf Shield Short Hop. On the way back down, smash the circle pad in one direction just before landing to slide in that direction.

If you do this near the edge of the stage, you can slide off and grab the ledge just as your Leaf Shield activates. This is the quickest way to go from activating Leaf Shield to grabbing the ledge.

It's a little situational but there are some decent potential mix-ups with this AT. For example, if someone is pressuring you towards the ledge, you can bair toward him, Leaf Slide onto the ledge, then roll from ledge. The LS will last just long enough to do hitstun and protect you in the vulnerable frames after the roll, so if your opponent tries to catch you with a dsmash the leaves will prevent that and give you an opportunity to follow-up with a grab or utilt if possible. Otherwise you can shield or dodge again.

As I highlight in the video, this can be particularly good for our Yoshi MU because we can bair him out of his double jump, then Leaf Slide onto the ledge to edgeguard his egg recovery.

 

[Opana]

That's awesome.

It may work with the rush coil AT(Not necessarily or the RC, but it works best wit it), which is pretty much using rush to pass the ledge by holding down, moving forward slightly, and using a non RC special. You'll slide off refreshing jumps, and this may work with LS with enough time to recover. It'd be a good way to offstage edgeguard, then proceed to LS edge guard(Maybe a footstool?).

Either way, that's awesome.

 

[BBC7]

It seems as if both Fire Fox and Fox Illusion hate a good Leaf Shield, the leaves seem to stop Fox Illusion dead in it's tracks if it hits.

 

[Doval]

Plant Barrier, due to it lasting less, allows you to run off and fast fall, while still being able to recover after with I believe any recovery custom. This may be amazing versus Villager, possibly setitng up a dair.

Skull Barrier is an interesting move, as it doesn't damage unless thrown, in which each one seemingly has the potential to ht for 2%. Aside from that though, it's a reflective barrier, which could mean hell for a Greninja, especially so if it retains its reflective properties upon being thrown. Can make it back with any recovery as well.

I'm pretty sure Plant Barrier doesn't last less.

Been playing around with it and the petals seem to withstand any % attack. Charge Shots and Warlock Punches won't destroy petals.

However it's worth pointing out that neither leaves nor petals afford any real protection against attacks. They're essentially weak projectiles hovering around you. They will clank and cancel other weak moves, but if the move reaches Mega Man it still hits him. For example, Marth's jab gets canceled upon touching leaves but still hits Mega Man. Same goes for ZSS's f-tilt. Attacks too strong to be interrupted keep going without being canceled, though there's a possibility the leaves will hit a part of the attacker's body that doesn't have a hit box. Of course, moves with transcendent priority go right through leaves/petals.

Opponents should be able to thwart a leafstool simply by doing an up air. They just need to hit past the leaves, and aerials can't be canceled like ground attacks. Plant Barrier can make this harder since it extends from your body periodically but it's difficult to ensure the petals are extended when you get to the opponent. It's probably best to only attempt leafstools once the opponent has no choice but to use B moves to recover.

Skull Barrier doesn't reflect after it's thrown, but it does reflect during the initial throw animation before it leaves your body.

 

[ChopperDave]

I'm pretty sure Plant Barrier doesn't last less.

Been playing around with it and the petals seem to withstand any % attack. Charge Shots and Warlock Punches won't destroy petals.

However it's worth pointing out that neither leaves nor petals afford any real protection against attacks. They're essentially weak projectiles hovering around you. They will clank and cancel other weak moves, but if the move reaches Mega Man it still hits him. For example, Marth's jab gets canceled upon touching leaves but still hits Mega Man. Same goes for ZSS's f-tilt. Attacks too strong to be interrupted keep going without being canceled, though there's a possibility the leaves will hit a part of the attacker's body that doesn't have a hit box. Of course, moves with transcendent priority go right through leaves/petals.

Opponents should be able to thwart a leafstool simply by doing an up air. They just need to hit past the leaves. Since leaves only do 2%, any up air with more than 10% can go through uninterrupted. Plant Barrier can make this harder since it extends from your body periodically but it's difficult to ensure the petals are extended when you get to the opponent.

Skull Barrier doesn't reflect after it's thrown, but it does reflect during the initial throw animation before it leaves your body.

Yep, these are all important things to keep in mind. Neither LS nor PB do much in the way of stopping other hitboxes. Though they are helpful against a few in particular -- PKThunder almost never gets through, for example.

It seems like what often happens isn't that LS and PB stop attacks much as they frame trap opponents. LS won't stop any smash attacks, but it will often hitstun your opponent in the initial frames of the attack, stopping in from coming out. Same goes for a lot of other aerials and tilts with laggy start ups. I find that dash attacks, in particular, almost always get stopped by LS because of this frame trap effect, making it very nice for covering your vulnerable landing frames.

It seems like the best thing people can do against LS is attack with their moves with frame 1-3 hitboxes. Jabs and nairs often work best. Of course, I find that when opponents always try to spam jab combos to counter my LS, I can just roll behind them and make them eat a throw, utilt, or damash.

Some characters are better at thwarting Leafstool with their UpB than others. Mario and Doc almost always beat it with their invincibility frames and high damage. Captain Falcon and Sheik, on the other hand, not so much.

 

[Doval]

Yep, these are all important things to keep in mind. Neither LS nor PB do much in the way of stopping other hitboxes. Though they are helpful against a few in particular -- PKThunder almost never gets through, for example.

It seems like what often happens isn't that LS and PB stop attacks much as they frame trap opponents. LS won't stop any smash attacks, but it will often hitstun your opponent in the initial frames of the attack, stopping in from coming out. Same goes for a lot of other aerials and tilts with laggy start ups. I find that dash attacks, in particular, almost always get stopped by LS because of this frame trap effect, making it very nice for covering your vulnerable landing frames.

It seems like the best thing people can do against LS is attack with their moves with frame 1-3 hitboxes. Jabs and nairs often work best. Of course, I find that when opponents always try to spam jab combos to counter my LS, I can just roll behind them and make them eat a throw, utilt, or damash.

Some characters are better at thwarting Leafstool with their UpB than others. Mario and Doc almost always beat it with their invincibility frames and high damage. Captain Falcon and Sheik, on the other hand, not so much.

Yeah. It kind of sucks though, because the people that are easy to leafstool are the same ones you could easily b-air or d-air.

 

[Opana]

I'm pretty sure Plant Barrier doesn't last less.

Been playing around with it and the petals seem to withstand any % attack. Charge Shots and Warlock Punches won't destroy petals.

However it's worth pointing out that neither leaves nor petals afford any real protection against attacks. They're essentially weak projectiles hovering around you. They will clank and cancel other weak moves, but if the move reaches Mega Man it still hits him. For example, Marth's jab gets canceled upon touching leaves but still hits Mega Man. Same goes for ZSS's f-tilt. Attacks too strong to be interrupted keep going without being canceled, though there's a possibility the leaves will hit a part of the attacker's body that doesn't have a hit box. Of course, moves with transcendent priority go right through leaves/petals.

Opponents should be able to thwart a leafstool simply by doing an up air. They just need to hit past the leaves, and aerials can't be canceled like ground attacks. Plant Barrier can make this harder since it extends from your body periodically but it's difficult to ensure the petals are extended when you get to the opponent. It's probably best to only attempt leafstools once the opponent has no choice but to use B moves to recover.

Skull Barrier doesn't reflect after it's thrown, but it does reflect during the initial throw animation before it leaves your body.

I'll run a more thorough test, thanks for bringing this up.

I trust you, but it's more for confirmation.

 

[Doval]

I'll run a more thorough test, thanks for bringing this up.

I trust you, but it's more for confirmation.

No prob. It takes a bit longer to activate, but when I start it simultaneously with a Leaf Shield it also ends about that much later. In theory that'd make it slightly more dangerous, but I generally use LS/PB right before bouncing off Rush a second time so in practice it doesn't matter.

That said, the slower activation and the fact that neither move will really protect you from attacks except indirectly makes me reconsider Plant Barrier, since Leaf Shield's leaves disappearing on hit is mostly a non-issue.

I'm going to play around with Leaf Shield/Plant Barrier edgeguarding, that seems like it'd be one of its most solid uses. I know for a fact that every option from the edge loses invincibility before hit boxes come out, so the leaves should interrupt every option except rolling, which should be simple enough to chase with a dash grab.

 

[ChopperDave]

I'm going to play around with Leaf Shield/Plant Barrier edgeguarding, that seems like it'd be one of its most solid uses. I know for a fact that every option from the edge loses invincibility before hit boxes come out, so the leaves should interrupt every option except rolling, which should be simple enough to chase with a dash grab.

I've had some pretty amusing edgeguards and gimps using the Leaf Slide AT (which I will add to the OP at some point soon). I'll take a video next time it happens.

Because you're simultaneously ledge trumping (complete with ledge invincibility) and deploying a hitbox, it can create some pretty wacky scenarios.I find that oftentimes I catch people with this just as they are trying to perform an attack, dodge, or jump from ledge. This results in them falling straight down while performing a harmless aerial, falling straight down while air dodging, or falling straight down and losing their double jump, respectively. From there they usually panic and UpB ASAP, which sometimes kills them outright and otherwise sets them up for an easy follow up.

You don't even have to Leaf Slide, really. Simply firing up LS, running offstage, and snapping to ledge works too. Leaf Slide gives you element of surprise, though.

 

[Opana]

ChopperDave

Is it alright I add your posts about Leaf Shield to the WIP Moveset thread? I'm making an ATs list, and if you don't want me to I don't have a problem writing up my own summaries. I may shorten some regardless, may not, but I'd just like to know when I start writing about Leaf Shield.

I always credit people if I know the founders, so you needn't worry about that.

 

[ChopperDave]

ChopperDave

Is it alright I add your posts about Leaf Shield to the WIP Moveset thread? I'm making an ATs list, and if you don't want me to I don't have a problem writing up my own summaries. I may shorten some regardless, may not, but I'd just like to know when I start writing about Leaf Shield.

I always credit people if I know the founders, so you needn't worry about that.

Go for it!

 

[Doval]

I've had some pretty amusing edgeguards and gimps using the Leaf Slide AT (which I will add to the OP at some point soon). I'll take a video next time it happens.

Because you're simultaneously ledge trumping (complete with ledge invincibility) and deploying a hitbox, it can create some pretty wacky scenarios.I find that oftentimes I catch people with this just as they are trying to perform an attack, dodge, or jump from ledge. This results in them falling straight down while performing a harmless aerial, falling straight down while air dodging, or falling straight down and losing their double jump, respectively. From there they usually panic and UpB ASAP, which sometimes kills them outright and otherwise sets them up for an easy follow up.

You don't even have to Leaf Slide, really. Simply firing up LS, running offstage, and snapping to ledge works too. Leaf Slide gives you element of surprise, though.

That's pretty brilliant. I have such a long history of playing the previous games that I forget to account for trumping sometimes.

Properly timed, I don't think there's any defense against it other than choosing to overshoot the edge. There's a minimum delay before you can act upon grabbing the edge, and you can trump them during that time. With your own invincibility, there's nothing the opponent can do straight out of being trumped that would hit you. After that, even if they can beat your gimp attempts, you can simply let them have the edge. They'll have no invincibility the second time around, leaving them open to, say, down smash (or better yet, Hard Knuckle.)

 

[ChopperDave]

That's pretty brilliant. I have such a long history of playing the previous games that I forget to account for trumping sometimes.

Properly timed, I don't think there's any defense against it other than choosing to overshoot the edge. There's a minimum delay before you can act upon grabbing the edge, and you can trump them during that time. With your own invincibility, there's nothing the opponent can do straight out of being trumped that would hit you. After that, even if they can beat your gimp attempts, you can simply let them have the edge. They'll have no invincibility the second time around, leaving them open to, say, down smash (or better yet, Hard Knuckle.)

I'm not sure this is the case. It seems to me that you regain ledge invincibility if you got trumped or hit off the ledge.

The only time you actually lose ledge invincibility is if you let go yourself and regrab before taking any damage. It seems to be a strictly anti-planking mechanism. This might be worth testing, though, as I'm just going off anecdotal evidence.

That said, people freak out when you ledge trump them with Leaf Shield up. It's really great for forcing mistakes that lead to KOs.

 

[Doval]

I'm not sure this is the case. It seems to me that you regain ledge invincibility if you got trumped or hit off the ledge.

The only time you actually lose ledge invincibility is if you let go yourself and regrab before taking any damage. It seems to be a strictly anti-planking mechanism. This might be worth testing, though, as I'm just going off anecdotal evidence.

That said, people freak out when you ledge trump them with Leaf Shield up. It's really great for forcing mistakes that lead to KOs.

Just played around with the edge stealing mechanics. Turns out you can't steal the edge from someone until the frames where they can act. They can also buffer a move so they do their edge attack/stand/jump on the first possible frame and not get trumped. So forcing a trump isn't possible, but the only move that would avoid the leaves is the edge roll.

I was also able to confirm that getting hit entitles you to edge invincibility again. However, getting trumped on the edge doesn't. So if you steal the edge from someone and don't hit them, they're left vulnerable when they grab the edge.

 

[ChopperDave]

Sounds right to me. That reflects my experience in the games I've played.

It seems that LS is a really good way to pressure people who recover low or to ledge in general. Like you said, the only way to actually avoid getting ledge trumped is to roll from ledge, which makes you predictable. It's pretty easy to play mind games around this, simply running up to the ledge and NOT ledge trumping, then turning around and grabbing your opponent after he completes his roll.

Also, if my opponent tries to recover mid, I find that jumping toward them and airdodging will freeze their forward momentum and often force them to go to ledge. It's a nice way not to waste the LS if your opponent fakes you out and lets you keep control of the situation.

I've taken to using MB, bair, fair, and dair to pursue off stage, then using LS with ledge invincibility to ledge trump and/or stuff the UpB. You can make it really hard to get back on to stage safely this way.

 

[ChopperDave]

I just uploaded a quick video showcasing another aspect of LS's gimp potential: forcing mistakes.

What happened here (I think) is that the ZSS attempted to Flip Jump up to a ledge grab, while buffering A to attack from ledge immediately.

Instead, she got hit stunned through the stage by my LS, missing her ledge grab, and instead buffered into a fair. By the time she got her IASA frame it was too late for her to recover and she lost a stock at around 30%. Whoops.

The lesson here is that LS can be pretty useful for forcing costly off-stage mistakes at low percentages. Simply running up to the ledge and shielding or running offstage into ledge grab can make your opponent goof and set up for a damaging punish.

 

[ChopperDave]

New video on the same theme, this time vs. Link I played on For Glory. This one showcases how you can run off the ledge with LS, use the invincibility frames while grabbing the ledge to safely stuff UpB recovery moves, and then string it into a dair finisher. KO gimps begin @ 0:38 and 1:37. Link died at 54% and 82%, respectively.

Now, a quicker and less surprised Link than this one could theoretically have kept mashing out UpBs until one of them didn't get stuffed by the LS. Usually, however, this sends him up too high to snap to ledge. It's quite easy to punish this by simply getting up and usmashing or dsmashing him as he comes back down.

 

[Doval]

New video on the same theme, this time vs. Link I played on For Glory. This one showcases how you can run off the ledge with LS, use the invincibility frames while grabbing the ledge to safely stuff UpB recovery moves, and then string it into a dair finisher. KO gimps begin @ 0:38 and 1:37. Link died at 54% and 82%, respectively.

Now, a quicker and less surprised Link than this one could theoretically have kept mashing out UpBs until one of them didn't get stuffed by the LS. Usually, however, this sends him up too high to snap to ledge. It's quite easy to punish this by simply getting up and usmashing or dsmashing him as he comes back down.

He could've tethered on the first pass and waited you out. Tetherless characters are pretty much forced to take the first hit and read your follow-up though. There's probably characters that can Up B the second time without being hit but you can still play games by grabbing the edge yourself.

 

[ChopperDave]

He could've tethered on the first pass and waited you out. Tetherless characters are pretty much forced to take the first hit and read your follow-up though.

It depends on the physics of the tether. Oftentimes characters who use tethers will "swing" into one of the leaf hitboxes. When this happens you achieve the same effect as when you stuff an UpB.

If the player somehow manages to luck out and swing around the leaf hitboxes, you can still drop into a Leafstool -> dair string.

 

[Doval]

It depends on the physics of the tether. Oftentimes characters who use tethers will "swing" into one of the leaf hitboxes. When this happens you achieve the same effect as when you stuff an UpB.

If the player somehow manages to luck out and swing around the leaf hitboxes, you can still drop into a Leafstool -> dair string.

From the low angles you force using pellets, I don't see how they could possibly swing into it. You're right about the leafstool, though I suspect Link could tether to the edge before you get a chance to finish the Leaf Shield.

I also wonder if ZSS can Flip Jump to the edge without being vulnerable. I'll have to check at home.

 

[ChopperDave]

From the low angles you force using pellets, I don't see how they could possibly swing into it. You're right about the leafstool, though I suspect Link could tether to the edge before you get a chance to finish the Leaf Shield.

I also wonder if ZSS can Flip Jump to the edge without being vulnerable. I'll have to check at home.

IIRC tether characters are vulnerable while tethering until they snap to ledge grab. You're right that they generally won't swing into the waiting LS from low angles. I think they have to be more or less parallel to the stage or above it for that to happen.

Not sure on the ZSS thing, but I think if she tries to Flip Jump snap to ledge she has a few vulnerable frames where she can get caught by LS before she snaps to the ledge grab. (I think this is what happened in the video in this post.) In general she seems safer just Flip Jumping back on to the stage rather than the ledge -- I have more trouble edge guarding her when she does that.


ALSO: I finally updated the OP with some of the new videos and tactics on this page, and updated the older entries for content and overall brevity. Hooray!

 

[Doval]

IIRC tether characters are vulnerable while tethering until they snap to ledge grab. You're right that they generally won't swing into the waiting LS from low angles. I think they have to be more or less parallel to the stage or above it for that to happen.

I know. My line of thought is that you have to actively keep them at bay using buster shots or other attacks until they're lined up with the edge to ensure they come from below. At that point they can tether to the edge faster than Leaf Shield's hit boxes turn on.

 

[ChopperDave]

I know. My line of thought is that you have to actively keep them at bay using buster shots or other attacks until they're lined up with the edge to ensure they come from below. At that point they can tether to the edge faster than Leaf Shield's hit boxes turn on.

You're probably right that it wouldn't work in that situation. You generally have to have the LS up beforehand to use this edge guard approach. A Leaf Slide to ledge trump might still work if they don't buffer a get up move.

I usually commit to a LS around the time my opponent uses up his second jump when I know he'll either have to recover low or mid. (You can see that I do this for both KOs in the Link video).

While this stops me from being able to force him into a low recovery or use my nair or bair, I find that this is still an advantageous situation for me to be in because I can shield grab a recovery at mid height and leaf stool / ledge grab against a low recovery. It's pretty hard for heavy characters with bad vertical recovery ability, like Link and Captain Falcon, to get out of this unpunished.

 

[Doval]

I confirmed that a properly spaced Flip Jump is fully invincible. Jumped through an active Smart Bomb and grabbed the edge. The spacing isn't so strict that a pro wouldn't be able to do it consistently. Just thought I'd bring it up since getting trumped with Leaf Shield up would be very dangerous.

 

[ChopperDave]

I confirmed that a properly spaced Flip Jump is fully invincible. Jumped through an active Smart Bomb and grabbed the edge. The spacing isn't so strict that a pro wouldn't be able to do it consistently. Just thought I'd bring it up so you don't get blindsided if you get trumped.

Good to know. As long as I stand up from the ledge at the same time as she grabs it I should be fine.

ZSS can be such a pain to edge guard - she can get like a full 60 frames of invincibility by air dodging into a Flip Jump. What is anyone supposed to do about that?

 

[Doval]

Good to know. As long as I stand up from the ledge at the same time as she grabs it I should be fine.

ZSS can be such a pain to edge guard - she can get like a full 60 frames of invincibility by air dodging into a Flip Jump. What is anyone supposed to do about that?

The best course of action is probably to put up Leaf Shield, let her have the edge, then immediately grab it and roll. By grabbing it you force her to act immediately. In theory, with a small enough gap between her grabbing it and you grabbing it, Leaf Shield will interrupt any edge action since the leaves will be where she is if she jumps, stands or attacks and your roll will follow hers if she chooses that.

EDIT: Probably better to stand instead of roll. You can still chase rolls and get the chance to punish the other options.

 

[Z1GMA]

@ BBC7 , I found another way to get a perfectly timed Utilt (or anything else) after Leaf Shield:
Activate LF at the same time as you jump off the stage, buffer a DJ and grab the ledge, buffer a Ledge Roll.
When all this is done, the LF disappears.

 

[Ramzy]

Random, but when against equally projectile heavy characters like Duck Hunt, Leaf shield is amazing for going through everything.

Usually I'll equip a metal blade, activate leaf shield, and then try to line up the shot. If I can't do it quick enough and the shield ends, I'll just re-activate. If my opponent tries to rush me I'll toss the metal blade I've had equipped. Metal blade (if you pick it up) is the only other thing you can use with the leaf shield on other than the leaf shield itself.