Wolf's Zones - Week 4: Diddy Kong

[tekkie]

umm if you do everything perfectly, wolf can outcamp snake in the long range. It's pretty hard though. You have to stop blastering once snake holding a grenade. then just wait til he throws it at you. when it reaches you, detonate it with your shine and then blaster again and repeat

But asplosions go through shine, correct?

 

[choice_brawler]

Not if it detonates during shine's invincibility frames.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Not to mention saying "if you do everything perfectly" is a terrible argument. No one ever does anything perfectly and if anything you should always assume the worst so you aren't taken by surprise.

 

[choice_brawler]

"If you do everything perfectly" just assumes you have the timing down it sounds like, thats not far from possible. You should not have too much trouble if you're counting how long the grenade has before detonating.

 

[Dv8tor]

Okay let's not stray into simple question territory. I personally like being near the edge with Snake since he has little room to move and cant' slide as well. He can be out camped by blaster and shining the grenades. Once he's off the edge it gets easier to kick him in the head over and over again.

 

[ArcPoint]

They're discussing whether or not being far from Snake is a good zone, sounds on topic to me.

And the Snakes I go against usually recover high, and despite the fact that it's Snake it's hard to punish him from that high. He can change directions quickly with B-reversals, he's got his C4 and Bair out. You also can't directly attack when he pulls out a nade... It's a pain.

 

[castorpollux]

But asplosions go through shine, correct?

If you use ur shine to detonate the grenades, u wont get blown up

 

[MidnightAsaph]

If you use ur shine to detonate the grenades, u wont get blown up

>_< I actually forgot about that. I'm used to blastering the nades when he's just thrown them, so he gets hurt.

Here's my input for Snake positioning.

Make sure you're far enough that using the blaster, he can't get to you quickly. It's dangerous in case the person in question has a good handle on running with a perfect shield. I can do it when I set my mind to it, as does a friend of mind. Even without perfect shielding, Snake can get to you while shielding.

So keep a good distance from him, and make sure you whip out his blaster when he can't punish you. It's also good to use when he's mortar sliding, although some of us who prefer to grab (providing we have the timing).

Never be above Snake, and make sure your bairs are spaced well and you do them briskly.

Try and get Snake up in the air, using throws, utilt or whatever. When this happens, juggle his sad ***. We should all know that his aerials suck. Uair is obviously the way to go.

Last note when near Snake, make sure your shield is up. Ftilts and Utilt ****, and get ready to DI when at high damage. All else, if too close, make sure you grab.


I've probably just repeated stuff, but generally, we like to be UNDER Snake, but other than that, it's, depending on play style, a lot of other places. Too close to Snake, and you can get grabbed and then followed with a tech chase. We like to be in the 'wall of bair' zone.

 

[SelfPossessed]

Yeah, I know... but unfortunately there wasn't much feedback as to what people thought were neutral zones From outside fsmash range and too close for blaster to be safe is an area I'd consider a neutral zone against MK. If anyone has anything to say about neutral zones with MK you can throw that in now, organization can wait.

There's too much matchup discussion, not enough zoning discussion.

Here's my two cents. Take it as you will. I might have missed a few neutral zones though and I'm iffy on how I organized it.

Actually, we really ought to decide on a format for discussion purposes. I'm using one I thought up on the fly based on special notes, relative location (Wolf same level, Wolf below, Wolf above), and general stage position. Color coded too for the hell of it.

METAKNIGHT

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is same level:

• Good zone directly next to him when facing him. You can shield grab nearly all of his stuff here and you have a good safe jab. You both have invincibility frames; Shine and Shuttle Loop. Slightly in your favor.
• Bad zone if directly next to him when facing away from him. You can't shield grab, can't Fair OoS, Bair OoS misses the ******, and you need to turnaround to do a jab.
• Bad zone if within his Dtilt/Ftilt/Fair range but not in your grab range. You can't shield grab here and he outprioritizes and outspeeds you.
• Good zone if outside his Dtilt/Ftilt/Fair range but within your Fsmash range. You can bait and punish attacks well here.
• Neutral zone if outside your Fsmash range. Blaster can force an approach, but you're no Falco.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is below:

• Neutral zone if he's way above you in the air. Can't hurt each other here.
• Neutral zone if he's directly above you. Not sure who would win between his Dair and your Uair/Fair, that might change this zone. Also, perfect shield that glide attack if he's gliding in.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is above:

• Bad zone directly above MK and within his attack range. Uair and Shuttle loop are evil. It gets worse if you're in this zone without a DJ.
• Neutral zone directly above him if significantly above his Uair and Shuttle Loop range. You can retreat here with better air speed.
• Bad zone slightly away from him but within his Fair/Ftilt range. He outspeeds and outprioritizes. It gets even worse if you're in this zone without a DJ.
• Good zone if just outside his Ftilt/Fair range. You can bait and punish attacks well here.
• Neutral zone otherwise. You can throw out blasters here on occasion, but again you're no Falco.

General Stage Positioning:

• Neutral and Good zones near the middle of the stage. There's a smaller chance of getting gimped.
• Bad zones near the edges of the stage if you are between it and MK. High chance of getting gimped.
• Bad zones off stage period. High chance of getting gimped.

Conclusion:
Control the middle of the stage to avoid gimps. Stay just outside his attack ranges to bait and punish his attacks. You can also shield dash to get directly in at times. So, imagine the Target sign around MK that you want to stay in. Everywhere else is either Neutral (retreat!) or Bad (gimps).

SNAKE

Special Note - Snake CREATES Bad zones on the stage. Any one of your Good zones can suddenly turn Bad.

• Grenades. Where they are (and their explosion radius) is a Bad zone for you, even if Snake is within its range. Snake is heavier, so trading hits is not advised. Of course you still have options where they are around, but it's unfavorable for you.
• C4. Bad zone around it (explosion radius) if Snake can activate it without you interrupting or when it's close to exploding. Range is ridiculous on platforms, so the zone is pretty big.
• Nikita Missile. Bad zone around it and below it. Typically dropped from above you rather than aimed at you.
• Dsmash (proximity mine). This is a Bad zone for both of you directly on top of it (it's small), though Snake is better at pushing you into this Bad zone. Touch it and die.
• Usmash (mortar). This creates a Bad zone all around Snake in a parabola as it covers the air AND you won't know if it lands in front of or behind him. With DACUS it has mobility too.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is same level:

• Neutral zone within Snake's tilt range. If you can't get a rising Bair off before his tilts, his shield pressure is ridiculous. A broken shield versus Snake is a stock. However, if you have enough frames to get that rising Bair/Fair off, it'll cut through his options.
• Neutral, maybe Good zone right outside of Snake's tilt range but within your Fsmash range. He has DACUS, but you can Blaster it and Fsmash punish other stuff. Closer to Neutral since Snakes don't approach the way MKs do (unless you meet a 2x ftilt spammer).
• Neutral zone outside of your Fsmash range. You have Blaster, he has Grenades.

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is below:

• Good zone below Snake and within a jump -> Uair/Bair/Fair range. Combo him. Now. Bait that airdodge.
• Neutral zone below Snake if he's outside of jump-> Uair range, even if he's directly above (gives him time to pull out C4s and Grenades and the Nikita Missile).

Combat on the Stage - Wolf is above:

• Bad zone directly above him and within his attack ranges. He will hurt you.
• Neutral zone above him if outside his attack ranges; use superior air speed to retreat.
• Good zone above him but just outside of his attack ranges. Bair walls and Fairs work wonders as pressure tools here.
• Neutral zones otherwise. You have Blaster, but you're no Falco.

General Stage Positioning:

• Neutral and Good zones near the middle of the stage. There's a smaller chance of getting contained and pushed into a Bad zone.
• Bad zones near the edges of the stage, including the ledge itself (you can get to the ledge...but how do you get on stage?). High chance of getting contained and pushed into a Bad zone.
• Good zones off stage if you are above Snake.
• Neutral zone off stage if you can recover with side B.
• Bad zone off stage if you're forced to recover with up B.

Conclusion:
The large amount of Neutral zones here is misleading as his Grenades/C4/Nikita/Mines/Mortar will turn them into Bad zones. Avoid them, Blaster to force an approach if you can't find a good place to approach from yourself. Control the middle of the stage to avoid getting contained. Being stuck near the ledge with Bad zones all around you is a bad thing. Approach mainly from the air in your good zone; your damage will come if you can knock him slightly upwards. Off stage is in your favor, though his crazy ledge pressure can even this out quickly.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I dunno about snake, he's weird. A lot of zones are neutral with him and it depends on who has more skill. The zone that wolf has an advantage is when snake is in the air but snake can get to the ground pretty easily. Snake has an advantage at like mid-range probably due to his massive tilt range but that doesn't necessarily mean that wolf can't use perfectly spaced B-airs to avoid retaliation. Most of the other zones are probably neutral, but they can change depending on the positioning of explosives and whatnot.

 

[Ishiey]

Lots of colorful thoughts

Nice to see you're visiting the boards more frequently Good input, it's nice to have someone else agree with me that close range vs MK isn't so bad.

For snake, would everyone agree that you'd want to stay away from platforms if there's an explosive on/below them? And a lot of his attacks (mortar, grenades, dsmash) aren't that bad for wolf's zoning IMO, because they can be detonated/reflected without much difficulty.

 

[SelfPossessed]

About MK up close, other people agree as well. There's some post floating around on smashboards about boxing in Brawl. It mentions that MK is weaker up close due to how he can be shieldgrabbed and his lack of a good cancel-able jab.

About explosives, I wouldn't limit it to just platforms. Explosives anywhere = bad news. Platforms just magnify the effect as explosives placed there cover both above the platform and below it due to the radius of the detonation.

Also, even if Wolf can deal with the explosives, there are two things to consider.
1) Wolf is forced to deal with them first before going after Snake. Even though he has the tools, it's still a disadvantage. Since Snake put them down beforehand, he is free to capitalize on the opening you just left him, either by trying to punish you or using that time to place additional explosives to restart the cycle.
2) A good Snake will theoretically trap you using multiple explosives. Even if you can deal with a single explosive, you can't deal with several of them at the same time, especially when you factor in his tilts.

 

[Ishiey]

True. I will be sure to make a big flashy note in the OP once I post the Snake stuff up that the explosives create bad zones for Wolf, for the reasons that you mentioned.

It seems like the Snake discussion is coming to a close, anyone have any last words to say before we move on to DeDeDe?

 

[castorpollux]

i think we covered the snake match up.

For D3 zones, u can just draw a circle around d3 and anything within that circle is a bad zone

 

[Ishiey]

^ That sounds pretty accurate, or at least for now...

Skipping DeDeDe, so now we're on Game and Watch. Post up people!

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Is it that not a lot of us have GW experience? Where's the intput?

I'm going to take a guess that anywhere near GW is not good. He has range. His dair is not good to get hit with, and both his uptilt, uair and upsmash can be a big problem as well. His bair and fair have range. It's also not good to be grabbed by him, considering his dtillt combos. Dthrow can also bring out a dsmash, which is never good; however, I'm not sure if it's a combo.

If I played a GW, I wouldn't know what to do, considering he has range. I am also not experienced enough to know whether or not our bair beats all his attacks in range. So, I'm not sure what would really be good. I hope someone has some experience.

Question: does his bucket continue absorbing after it is full?

 

[castorpollux]

Is it that not a lot of us have GW experience? Where's the intput?

I'm going to take a guess that anywhere near GW is not good. He has range. His dair is not good to get hit with, and both his uptilt, uair and upsmash can be a big problem as well. His bair and fair have range. It's also not good to be grabbed by him, considering his dtillt combos. Dthrow can also bring out a dsmash, which is never good; however, I'm not sure if it's a combo.

If I played a GW, I wouldn't know what to do, considering he has range. I am also not experienced enough to know whether or not our bair beats all his attacks in range. So, I'm not sure what would really be good. I hope someone has some experience.

Question: does his bucket continue absorbing after it is full?

I have a lot of game and watch experience. I've played omegablackmage, hylian, and blackanese. Wolf's good zone would just be out or range of turtle. that way if he whiffs with the turtle, u can punish his landing lag. U don't want to be underneath game and watch. Being in boost smash distance is also very good for wolf. If u blaster him and he pulls out his bucket, u can boost smash him without him being able to retract the bucket. If he fills his bucket, blaster him a lot and keep ur distance. The game and watch player will probably get really frustrated.

Being right next to game and watch gives him the advantage, so make sure if ur ever in taht zone, u have some frame advantage.

Off the stage, game and watch has the advantage. This includes the edge.

Watch my video vs omegablackmage. I pretty much applied zoning in that match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzTPPJ_UzYw

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I have a lot of game and watch experience. I've played omegablackmage, hylian, and blackanese. Wolf's good zone would just be out or range of turtle. that way if he whiffs with the turtle, u can punish his landing lag. U don't want to be underneath game and watch. Being in boost smash distance is also very good for wolf. If u blaster him and he pulls out his bucket, u can boost smash him without him being able to retract the bucket.

Being right next to game and watch gives him the advantage, so make sure if ur ever in taht zone, u have some frame advantage.

Off the stage, game and watch has the advantage. This includes the edge.

Which has more range, turtle or box?

And you mean the turtle, right? I played as GW a couple times, but maybe I don't remember; does the turtle have a lot of lag? I remember a little, but I'd think the lag of the fair far outweighs it.

Offstage? Definitely. It wouldn't be fun to scar right into a fair, which stays out for a while. Do you know if GW be able to pull another fair out for the initial hit and still recover?

edit: I'll take a look at that. It's been a while.

 

[castorpollux]

Which has more range, turtle or box?

And you mean the turtle, right? I played as GW a couple times, but maybe I don't remember; does the turtle have a lot of lag? I remember a little, but I'd think the lag of the fair far outweighs it.

Offstage? Definitely. It wouldn't be fun to scar right into a fair, which stays out for a while. Do you know if GW be able to pull another fair out for the initial hit and still recover?

edit: I'll take a look at that. It's been a while.

I believe the turtle has more range.

What did u mean by "Do you know if GW be able to pull another fair out for the initial hit and still recover?"

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I believe the turtle has more range.

What did u mean by "Do you know if GW be able to pull another fair out for the initial hit and still recover?"

Maybe I've got it wrong, but picture the scenario:

GW pursues Wolf offstage, right? Wolf uses the flash to recover, but is hit by the end of GW's fair, which, at this point, merely pushes you with barely enough knock back. Is it realistic to say that he pulls out ANOTHER fair with the more powerful knock back and KO's you. Does the lag of the fair prevent him from returning with a recover in time? Thinking about it, it was a dumb question, but I asked anyway. Is that scenario plausible?

 

[Ishiey]

Turtle outranges us, correct? And don't we want to be close enough to punish his landing lag? So basically, not exactly below, but close enough to capitalize. I don't find being right below GW such a huge problem though, uair beats his dair, and you can punish his dair, right? What makes it a particularly bad zone?

I'm pretty sure GW can use two fairs and recover, as long as he makes decent use out of his double jump.

 

[Ishiey]

Subtle bump, in case anyone has anything to say/debate.

 

[ArcPoint]

I don't have all too much experience with the matchup...but I know being below him is a bad thing. Close to him...eh, nah, Dtilt. That thing just *****. I'd rather be farther away. Just sort of a bait and punish deal...

 

[Sesshomuronay]

G&W is weird, there aren't really any good zones except long range and close to him on the ground maybe. Most of the zones I find bad for vsing G&W as a smart one is extremely hard to punish.

 

[JCav]

T

I'm pretty sure GW can use two fairs and recover, as long as he makes decent use out of his double jump.

yup he can use 2 and if the G&w is any good hell do it every time you get off stage

 

[Ishiey]

Well, that didn't go as great as planned, but ah well. I guess it's time to move on to Diddy.

DISCUSS!

 

[castorpollux]

I think this depends on the position of diddy kong. If he is hanging on the edge, a good zone would be an fsmash length away from the edge. If he is in the air, being underneath him is advantageous. Otherwise, i think it's pretty neutral