Wolf's "unwinnable" matchups.

[Sukai]

Wolf vs Meta Knight on Rainbow Cruise.
Wolf vs King Dedede on Rainbow Cruise.
Wolf vs Falco on Jungle Japes. No you will not survive the fall into the water.

Ban the respective stage to the corresponding character.
Wolf vs. Meta Knight is entirely winnable, people here are just intimidated by him.
Saying if "'X' shields, then Wolf gets *****" isn't credible, because it works the other way around, depending on the attack.

Wolf has an effective projectile, which is mostly the reason why this match is winnable. Shine gets by Shuttle Loop and any aerial chase. Wolf can camp, and his priority isn't bad either.
At Top level, it's 65:35, difficult, but winnable.
I mean I know MK is an unbalanced character, but now, people are giving him too much credit.

 

[Seagull Joe]

i dont know why people saying the falco matchup is so bad.i beat good falcos regularly with wolf.the cg annoys me but thats it.our laser is better.our killing potential is better.our bair is sexy in comparison to any move falco can do

 

[Excellence]

Ban the respective stage to the corresponding character.
Wolf vs. Meta Knight is entirely winnable, people here are just intimidated by him.
Saying if "'X' shields, then Wolf gets *****" isn't credible, because it works the other way around, depending on the attack.

Wolf has an effective projectile, which is mostly the reason why this match is winnable. Shine gets by Shuttle Loop and any aerial chase. Wolf can camp, and his priority isn't bad either.
At Top level, it's 65:35, difficult, but winnable.
I mean I know MK is an unbalanced character, but now, people are giving him too much credit.

Basically, any stage with few ledges and some sort of constantly moving or changing theme hurts Wolf. If you combine that with characters who do recover well and can batter Wolf with fast aerials to keep him from recovering, you have yourself a near unwinnable match-up.

In regards to Meta Knight, the person could easily go for Lylat, Jungle Japes or Orpheon Frigates and still get results similar to that of the Meta Knight picking Rainbow Cruise.

King Dedede's chaingrab is always a problem for Wolf, even if he camps Dedede can still put up a pretty decent wall using Waddle Dees and BAirs. Forget it if Wolf is somehow knocked off stage because King Dedede's BAir can gimp him pretty easily.

I think Falco beats Wolf on any short stage. People always talk about the chaingrab only being a problem until a certain percentage, which is somewhat true but not entirely when the Falco is not looking for damage but rather a K.O. Stages like Jungle Japes, Battlefield, Orpheon Frigates, and Green Greens are all good examples of stages where Falco doesn't have to walk far before he can spike you. He's also got that laser of his which serves an innumerable amount of uses.

Shine does not give Wolf enough to change match-ups. It should be reserved for getting to the ground or keeping Wolf out of the air. Wolf's Shine as a means to counter Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is only a finite solution because it does have a bit of lag after using it. On the other hand, Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is extremely quick. If you're baited then you're dead.

If Wolf camps blaster against any of the characters discussed about, he'll still probably lose. All of them have something they can use to get around Wolf's Blaster so it's not really match altering.

i dont know why people saying the falco matchup is so bad.i beat good falcos regularly with wolf.the cg annoys me but thats it.our laser is better.our killing potential is better.our bair is sexy in comparison to any move falco can do

Falco is a bad match-up because no matter how you look at it his chaingrab, laser and combo's are a problem. If two players of equal skill are competing at the highest level of play possible, a 50% lead is going to make an enormous difference. No matter what that Wolf does, he's working from behind Falco in one way or another. Falco has already got Wolf pressured to get damage in and play more agressively that he normally would in order to make up for a percentage loss. Your killing percentage can be better, but Falco gimps you more easily and racks up damage more easily. Falco's Shine & Laser to DACUS is better than Wolf's BAir.

 

[choice_brawler]

If two players of equal skill are competing at the highest level of play possible, a 50% lead is going to make an enormous difference. No matter what that Wolf does, he's working from behind Falco in one way or another.

By this logic wouldn't heavier characters be top tier cuz they essentially have a % lead on people?

Wario, pikachu and DDD are the only match ups that may be "unwinnable" because of their CG->deaths. Marth has a CG->death on wolf too doesnt he (only at 0%)? or am i not doing something right, lol (if so please enlighten me, i'd like to **** marths even more ^^).

Now that we have acknowledged these "unwinnable" match ups, what do we do? (The answer i don't want to hear is drop wolf, abandon competitive smash, go play melee or anything like that)

 

[ChitownWolf]

Against tough MKs, this match can become very unwinnable

 

[castorpollux]

I fail to see a point to this entire thread.

I also hate all this "theory" talk.

"If two players of equal skill are competing at the highest level of play possible, a 50% lead is going to make an enormous difference."

The probability of 2 players of exactly equal skill playing at the highest level of play possible is 0. It's never going to happen.


In all honesty, of all the good players that I've played, I have never lost a set due to match - ups. The player just played better than me... so all this unwinnable crap isn't character based. It's player-based

 

[Excellence]

By this logic wouldn't heavier characters be top tier cuz they essentially have a % lead on people?

Wario, pikachu and DDD are the only match ups that may be "unwinnable" because of their CG->deaths. Marth has a CG->death on wolf too doesnt he (only at 0%)? or am i not doing something right, lol (if so please enlighten me, i'd like to **** marths even more ^^).

Now that we have acknowledged these "unwinnable" match ups, what do we do? (The answer i don't want to hear is drop wolf, abandon competitive smash, go play melee or anything like that)

No because heavier characters all have disadvantages that balance their weight advantage against other characters.

If you want to win those match-ups find counter-pick stags that make them painstakingly difficult to win, pick up a seconary, and or quit Wolf - take your pick.

I fail to see a point to this entire thread.

I also hate all this "theory" talk.

"If two players of equal skill are competing at the highest level of play possible, a 50% lead is going to make an enormous difference."

The probability of 2 players of exactly equal skill playing at the highest level of play possible is 0. It's never going to happen.


In all honesty, of all the good players that I've played, I have never lost a set due to match - ups. The player just played better than me... so all this unwinnable crap isn't character based. It's player-based

Stop throwing around words you hear other people say. This isn't theory talk. If you've ever played a good King Dedede or Pikachu, then I'm sure they've chaingrabbed you to absurd percentages. That's not theory, it's just the way the competitive game works.

Two players of equal skills competing happens a lot. The fact that you said the chances of it happening are ZERO (0%) makes you very uncredible. This happens a lot, you're probably just unaware of how often it actually happens. Take a look at all of the top tournaments, it's the same few people winning every single time. Why is that? Because most of them are all of equal skills and it takes character advantage to win the match-up. For example, Snakeee versus ADHD is a match-up where two players of equal skill played and ADHD won, why? Because Diddy Kong has an advantage over Zero Suit Samus. Ally versus M2K, the match-up during the tournament was in favor of M2K, however they continued to play after the tournament and M2K himself said they were around even in skill. When you see Ally vs "Someone who isn't M2K" or M2K versus "Someone who isn't Ally" who wins? M2K or Ally because their that much better than everyone else and NOT of equal skill.

The reason you don't know you're losing because of character advantage is because you aren't playing good enough people. Plain and simple. If you honestly feel as though you haven't lost because of character advantage, you aren't playing good enough people.

 

[castorpollux]

Stop throwing around words you hear other people say. This isn't theory talk. If you've ever played a good King Dedede or Pikachu, then I'm sure they've chaingrabbed you to absurd percentages. That's not theory, it's just the way the competitive game works.

Two players of equal skills competing happens a lot. The fact that you said the chances of it happening are ZERO (0%) makes you very uncredible. This happens a lot, you're probably just unaware of how often it actually happens. Take a look at all of the top tournaments, it's the same few people winning every single time. Why is that? Because most of them are all of equal skills and it takes character advantage to win the match-up. For example, Snakeee versus ADHD is a match-up where two players of equal skill played and ADHD won, why? Because Diddy Kong has an advantage over Zero Suit Samus. Ally versus M2K, the match-up during the tournament was in favor of M2K, however they continued to play after the tournament and M2K himself said they were around even in skill. When you see Ally vs "Someone who isn't M2K" or M2K versus "Someone who isn't Ally" who wins? M2K or Ally because their that much better than everyone else and NOT of equal skill.

The reason you don't know you're losing because of character advantage is because you aren't playing good enough people. Plain and simple. If you honestly feel as though you haven't lost because of character advantage, you aren't playing good enough people.

No 2 players are of exactly equal skill. U are really stupid if you actually think that. How do you measure skill? How can you accurately judge, let alone QUANTIFY a person's skill. Is there some kind of machine that you can put 2 people in and have it calculate their exact skill level? And even if there was some "machine" that can calculate a person's skill level, the probability of 2 people having the exact same skill is 0 (since skill would have to be considered continuous data).

Btw, here's a list of the "good" people I've played(as well as their characters). I hope they are good enough for you:

Mario-TC1
Donkey Kong - CBK
Diddy Kong - Nanerz, Turtle, Le Thien, TC1, QTP
Yoshi - Green Ace
Toon Link - Jash
Zero Suit Samus - Dazwa
Ice Climbers - Michael Hey, Hylian
Meta Knight - DSF, Dojo, Sean
King Dedede - Michael Hey
Olimar - Pyronic Star
Fox - Lucien, Rookie
Falco - Sk92
Wolf - Lucien, Candy
Pokemon Trainer - AD
Lucario - Lee Martin
Marth - Zex
Mr. Game & Watch - Omegablackmage, Hylian
Snake - Ally, Meep, Erow, Edo, Fatal, Nuro

And yes, I still stand by my last statement, I've only lost to these people (if I did lose to them) caz they played better than me, or ARE better than me at this game. Not caz of some insurmountable character wall.

 

[Sukai]

our laser is better.

First, put spaces between your sentences please!
Second, that is all wrong.
Wolf's may do a bit more damage, and is good against crouch campers, but that's it.
Falco's auto cancels, combos, and laser-locks.

Basically, any stage with few ledges and some sort of constantly moving or changing theme hurts Wolf. If you combine that with characters who do recover well and can batter Wolf with fast aerials to keep him from recovering, you have yourself a near unwinnable match-up.

Near, unwinnable.

Shine does not give Wolf enough to change match-ups. It should be reserved for getting to the ground or keeping Wolf out of the air. Wolf's Shine as a means to counter Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is only a finite solution because it does have a bit of lag after using it. On the other hand, Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is extremely quick. If you're baited then you're dead.

Okay, I know Shine doesn't change much for match ups, but it is an advantage in any match-up.
And move that provides invincibility frames are object to strategic use, the only issue is the where and when. And the shine is perfect when being chased, it knocks the opponent away, giving you space to recover, and prevents damage. Yes, if you are baited, then it is a major issue, but we're talking about top level play.
The probability of Wolf being baited into a shine is just as likely as Wolf seeing the bait and ignoring it.

EDIT:

No 2 players are of exactly equal skill. U are really stupid if you actually think that. How do you measure skill? How can you accurately judge, let alone QUANTIFY a person's skill. Is there some kind of machine that you can put 2 people in and have it calculate their exact skill level? And even if there was some "machine" that can calculate a person's skill level, the probability of 2 people having the exact same skill is 0 (since skill would have to be considered continuous data).

Okay, shut up, shut up, shut up.
Skill is measured by a combonation match-up outcomes, notability, tournament data, and overall use of what is assumed to be the highest potential a character can have.
Competitive Skill Level is rounded up like that and put in categories, if two people are in the same category, they are considered to be of "equal skill" statistically speaking.
There doesn't need to be a machine, yes there is no way to accurately define someone's skill, that's why they're rounded up like that, by even the best minds in smash, calling M2K himself, along with several others.

Btw, here's a list of the "good" people I've played(as well as their characters). I hope they are good enough for you:

Mario-TC1
Donkey Kong - CBK
Diddy Kong - Nanerz, Turtle, Le Thien, TC1, QTP
Yoshi - Green Ace
Toon Link - Jash
Zero Suit Samus - Dazwa
Ice Climbers - Michael Hey, Hylian
Meta Knight - DSF, Dojo, Sean
King Dedede - Michael Hey
Olimar - Pyronic Star
Fox - Lucien, Rookie
Falco - Sk92
Wolf - Lucien, Candy
Pokemon Trainer - AD
Lucario - Lee Martin
Marth - Zex
Mr. Game & Watch - Omegablackmage, Hylian
Snake - Ally, Meep, Erow, Edo, Fatal, Nuro

And yes, I still stand by my last statement, I've only lost to these people (if I did lose to them) caz they played better than me, or ARE better than me at this game. Not caz of some insurmountable character wall.

Okay, I don't care who you've faced, if you lose because your opponent's character can do more than your can, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character left your character with little to no options of defense, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character out spaced yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character out prioritized yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character can out maneuver yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
You see where I'm getting at?
It's true that they could be superior players, but that in no way exempts the fact that part of the reason that they won is because of character advantage.
To deny character advantage is to deny viability, tourney results, tier lists, match-ups and match-up discussions, and the simple character design of smash in general.
If anything, character advantage plays a bigger part in match-ups than skill itself, but to accurately determine the match up, it goes under the assumption that both players are around the same skill level, which has been shortened to "the same skill level".

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yeah, JJ, this why you take what random people say on message boards with a grain of salt.

 

[choice_brawler]

I fail to see a point to this entire thread.

I did too up until right before i was gonna type that up. How is it you get past weaknesses in anything? You first acknowledge them and then try to ameliorate them.

So a few characters got CG's -> Death on wolf? That doesn't mean wolf cant win tourneys nor that these match ups are "unwinnable" they're just stupid hard. We're not the only one's in the game that have to deal with not being grabbed in order to win (i.e. wario). Eventually if we just keep punishing people that go for grabs, they are gonna stop going for them. Also there are a few moves that certain characters have that link into grabs, we should learn to avoid those too. The wario in my crew wario bites to grab at 0% against my wolf, or at least tries to. It does work, just i never let him get the bite anymore cuz i expect it. So lets be done with this thread and use its results to study the match ups that really suck for us and how to make them less sucky. Wario can go even with Dedede and wolf's air movement is just as great so no reason we cant do the same.

 

[castorpollux]

Okay, I don't care who you've faced, if you lose because your opponent's character can do more than your can, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character left your character with little to no options of defense, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character out spaced yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character out prioritized yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character can out maneuver yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
You see where I'm getting at?

Sounds like johns to me.

Anyways, let me rephrase what I said before. Character advantage does play a role, but it's not as big as people think based on my experience of only consistently losing to superior players rather than their characters.

Wolf isn't a captain falcon. He has his strengths and weapons against everyone.

Btw, I only gave a list caz excellence was talking about how I don't play good people

If anything, character advantage plays a bigger part in match-ups than skill itself, but to accurately determine the match up, it goes under the assumption that both players are around the same skill level, which has been shortened to "the same skill level".

wtf u serious? character advantage playing a bigger part in match-ups than skill itself? That's ridiculous. Also, match-up discussions aren't realistic. The numbers given in those discussions are so arbitrary and biased.

 

[rvkevin]

If you lost because your opponent's character left your character with little to no options of defense, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character out spaced yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character out prioritized yours, then that's losing by character advantage.
If you lost because your opponent's character can out maneuver yours, then that's losing by character advantage.

If you lose because of one of these reasons, you are losing because your opponent is taking advantage of his strengths and punishing your weaknesses and you are failing to utilize your own strengths and negate your weaknesses. If you lose because of one of those reasons, its because you lost to a better player...Wolf isn't like Captian Falcon where he has no strengths...He has good aerial movement/falling speed, priority (Shine/Blaster), spacing (Bair, Fair, Blaster). You need to utilize Wolfs strengths more to be competent on the tournament scene.

 

[Dv8tor]

So as we might now hopefully know, acting like a brat is useless. Don't argue on these boards, discuss on them to help everyone.

Yes there is character advantages like CGs but in the end it is all skill. Just because two people are on the same skill level doesn't mean that their match is decided by character. If it was all character advantages then Meta wins no matter what, meaning that a crap player can go against the best players and win every time. People know and master different techniques and play differently. This means that whichever player can adapt to the others strategy faster or just having a counter style to the other is most probably going to win.


There is no such thing as an unwinnable match-up, there is a chance for success in any match, even if you get CGed by DDD to high percent, you might be able to gimp him right after and then figure out what he does to get his grabs, then counter that to keep the match momentum in your favor.

Players make characters, not the other way around. Character advantages do happen but not enough to truly change that fact.

 

[Sukai]

If you lose because of one of these reasons, you are losing because your opponent is taking advantage of his strengths and punishing your weaknesses and you are failing to utilize your own strengths and negate your weaknesses. If you lose because of one of those reasons, its because you lost to a better player...Wolf isn't like Captian Falcon where he has no strengths...He has good aerial movement/falling speed, priority (Shine/Blaster), spacing (Bair, Fair, Blaster). You need to utilize Wolfs strengths more to be competent on the tournament scene.

Okay, I see your point, but you're doing it a bit wrong.
It's not as black and white as utilising your strengths to cover your weaknesses.
If your opponent's character has more effective strong points, they can do a better job of covering their weaknesses.
Not only that, but they're strengths are utilized to exploit your weaknesses and/or out-match you in strength.
You can't completely cover up a weakness, no matter how good a Sheik is, she'll still be an easy edgehog, no matter how good an Ike is, he still has a mediocre and non reliable recovery.
See my point?
If they have the greater advantage, they have an easier time exploiting your disadvantages.
And using Falcon as a comparable example proves my point on Character Advantage.
I'd also like to add that he does have strengths, and he is able to space.

And the reason I said Character Advantage plays a bigger role than skill is because when in a match, you have to play while considering both characters' ups and downs and how it effects your chances of winning.
Then after that it's up to your skill to come out on top.

 

[Ishiey]

I believe Marth does have that 0-death thing on Wolf with the spike, for whoever asked that on the last page.

This 'discussion' is getting a bit messy. No matchup is literally unwinnable. Some are ridiculously hard, but intelligent CPs and all that can help out, and player skill has more of an effect on the outcome of a match than character matchups at higher levels.. Air camping like Wario sounds interesting though...

 

[rvkevin]

Okay, I see your point, but you're doing it a bit wrong.
It's not as black and white as utilising your strengths to cover your weaknesses.
If your opponent's character has more effective strong points, they can do a better job of covering their weaknesses.
Not only that, but they're strengths are utilized to exploit your weaknesses and/or out-match you in strength.
You can't completely cover up a weakness, no matter how good a Sheik is, she'll still be an easy edgehog, no matter how good an Ike is, he still has a mediocre and non reliable recovery.
See my point?
If they have the greater advantage, they have an easier time exploiting your disadvantages.
And using Falcon as a comparable example proves my point on Character Advantage.
I'd also like to add that he does have strengths, and he is able to space.

And the reason I said Character Advantage plays a bigger role than skill is because when in a match, you have to play while considering both characters' ups and downs and how it effects your chances of winning.
Then after that it's up to your skill to come out on top.

We're comparing Wolf here, of course Captain Falcon doesn't have priority/range against anyone, thats why he's the worst character in the game...Same reason for Ike and Shiek, Wolf is nothing like them...His recovery is actually fairly good compared to the rest of the cast...He can scar most stages, which makes him impossible to edgehog because he can just side B onto the stage and grab the ledge if the opponent doesn't go for it. No character in the game is going to have the advantage in all of the categories stated above...Sure some characters cover their weaknesses well (MK), but you can overcome his strengths by spacing better, not to mention blaster outprioritizes all of his moves...so instead of playing an up close and personal game with MK, you need to space better and keep your distance.

 

[ArcPoint]

In all honesty, of all the good players that I've played, I have never lost a set due to match - ups. The player just played better than me... so all this unwinnable crap isn't character based. It's player-based

Names? Unless you've played and lost to: Buuman, Bloodcross, or Darc due to legitimate skill differences, the chaingrabbing wasn't a factor at all I'm sure.

(Just going off of the NE power rankings... there might be unranked DDDs that I have no clue of haha)

 

[Hylian]

Is castor JJ?

If so, he is easily the best wolf I have played. Guy is really good .

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Is castor JJ?

If so, he is easily the best wolf I have played. Guy is really good .

Yea im pretty sure thats who he is. I've heard he has mad skillz.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Okay, shut up, shut up, shut up.
Skill is measured by a combonation match-up outcomes, notability, tournament data, and overall use of what is assumed to be the highest potential a character can have.

This is how I know you are full of crap.

you just said that how famous a smasher is determines their skill, and that assumptions determine a players skill...

you fail

also, JJ wolf is beast mode, if that is him you should listen to him

also, sliq plays wolf against DDDs

just putting that out there

 

[csir]

I fail to see a point to this entire thread.

I also hate all this "theory" talk.

"If two players of equal skill are competing at the highest level of play possible, a 50% lead is going to make an enormous difference."

The probability of 2 players of exactly equal skill playing at the highest level of play possible is 0. It's never going to happen.


In all honesty, of all the good players that I've played, I have never lost a set due to match - ups. The player just played better than me... so all this unwinnable crap isn't character based. It's player-based

You guys take this way too seriously. The guy just made a "what if" statement and you came up with a probabiltity statement lol. Of course theres no way to measure "skill" this isn't ****ing Dragon Ball Z.

I agree what the majority of the people in this thread are saying. Some characters do have obvious advantages on one another, and it's harder to beat them than other characters. That's not saying it's impossible.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

You guys take this way too seriously. The guy just made a "what if" statement and you came up with a probabiltity statement lol. Of course theres no way to measure "skill" this isn't ****ing Dragon Ball Z.

I agree what the majority of the people in this thread are saying. Some characters do have obvious advantages on one another, and it's harder to beat them than other characters. That's not saying it's impossible.

But...but... VEGETA WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT HIS POWER LEVEL?

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!




Ok so enough with the bad references... now I completely agree with you in that some characters have advantages over others. It's always possible to win, just its harder to win against certain characters than others(unless his power level is over 9000 which means your head a-splode).

 

[nocturne55]

also, sliq plays wolf against DDDs

just putting that out there

Know of any good videos of a good Wolf versus a good Dedede winning?

 

[Koskinator]

Falco is very winnable. Even match. Shoot lasers until he reflects them back, take hits from his lasers, just take damage that isnt a grab until 40%. Then space **** him with bairs to get him offstage, laser him out of illusion, shine spike his up b for the gimp. GG.

Most of you are saying Wolfs worst matchups are against characters with chaingrabs. Falco, DDD, Pika, etc etc. However, a Wolf with perfectly spaced bairs is going to be nearly impossible to grab for any characters save olimar. Now, I still wont use Wolf against DDD cuz the matchup is just too gay, I'd sooner go Ganon. But yeah, if your jumpy and active enough, your not gonna get grabbed often.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Falco is pretty even, plus theres a way to tech his chaingrab so its not a deathgrab. Pikachu is probably semi-manageable as pikachu might have a hard time getting in the grab if you play it right.

DDD however ***** wolf easily.

 

[Sukai]

We're comparing Wolf here, of course Captain Falcon doesn't have priority/range against anyone, thats why he's the worst character in the game...Same reason for Ike and Shiek, Wolf is nothing like them...His recovery is actually fairly good compared to the rest of the cast...He can scar most stages, which makes him impossible to edgehog because he can just side B onto the stage and grab the ledge if the opponent doesn't go for it. No character in the game is going to have the advantage in all of the categories stated above...Sure some characters cover their weaknesses well (MK), but you can overcome his strengths by spacing better, not to mention blaster outprioritizes all of his moves...so instead of playing an up close and personal game with MK, you need to space better and keep your distance.

Don't get me wrong.
I believe that Wolf can go well vs Meta Knight and win, I said so.
My main point was that Meta Knight had character advantage.
And when speaking of the others, they were examples of character advantage, that's why Falcon is considered the worst, not because he has "no strong points", it's because every other character has more strong points than he does, and they do better to cover up their weaknesses and exploit his.
I know Wolf is nothing like them, but, as my example demonstrated, he does have weaknesses, and they can and will be exploited by a character who can utilize strengths and cover weaknesses better than he can.

I don't think that the term "unwinnable" needs to undergo such insight, I'm sure no one meant that in the most literal fashion.

This is how I know you are full of crap.

you just said that how famous a smasher is determines their skill, and that assumptions determine a players skill...

Yes, if someone is well known for being good with a character, why would you think otherwise?
And I said assumed potential, because as a growing community, a character's potential cannot be finalized.
Don't get your panties in a bunch--

you fail

--Too late, I guess.
Whatever, I fail, because you misunderstood and overexaggerated what I said?
Right, okay.
I'm not here to slap hands with you, if you disagree, give a reason, don't throw out petty stuff like "you fail"
I hope the irony isn't lost on you.

 

[Pikabunz]

The Wario cg only works from 59% to about 200%. Wolf can escape with down b if you start anywhere below 59%.

 

[ArcPoint]

This is interesting, I'm glad I started this thread, obviously disagreement =)

I honestly don't care, I wouldn't say Wolf has any significant advantage in any of these matchups... so I go Pika. I'm a lazy bastard. Sue me.

But yeah, like I said, none of these matchups are "unwinnable" just really annoying/odds stacked against you at high level play. But then again, so is Wolf.

 

[choice_brawler]

thanks K prime. thats great to know. did you or whoever did the tests for that find an upper limit for the cg as well, like for when its started not for when it ends. or do you mean that wario can use the cg as long as he starts it in between 59%-200%?

is there a thread for the wario cg too btw?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Most of you are saying Wolfs worst matchups are against characters with chaingrabs. Falco, DDD, Pika, etc etc. However, a Wolf with perfectly spaced bairs is going to be nearly impossible to grab for any characters save olimar. Now, I still wont use Wolf against DDD cuz the matchup is just too gay, I'd sooner go Ganon. But yeah, if your jumpy and active enough, your not gonna get grabbed often.

Even Olimar can't shieldgrab well spaced Bairs.

 

[Excellence]

Sounds like johns to me.

Anyways, let me rephrase what I said before. Character advantage does play a role, but it's not as big as people think based on my experience of only consistently losing to superior players rather than their characters.

Wolf isn't a captain falcon. He has his strengths and weapons against everyone.

Btw, I only gave a list caz excellence was talking about how I don't play good people

wtf u serious? character advantage playing a bigger part in match-ups than skill itself? That's ridiculous. Also, match-up discussions aren't realistic. The numbers given in those discussions are so arbitrary and biased.

We see character advantage take a bigger part in a match-up than skill a lot. It's not hard for Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, Olimar or any other really good character like them to win a match without knowing much about it because they are so good in specific areas. It doesn't take much to push: B, Up + Back + A, Z, or R + A, respectively.

Just think man. A Jigglypuff or Ganondorf main, no matter how skills can accomplish what a Meta Knight or Dedede main can with the same skill.

This is how I know you are full of crap.

you just said that how famous a smasher is determines their skill, and that assumptions determine a players skill...

you fail

also, JJ wolf is beast mode, if that is him you should listen to him

also, sliq plays wolf against DDDs

just putting that out there

If he is whoever JJ is then he could very well be a great Wolf, but that doesn't mean that he knows what he's talking about with character skill. Character advantage and disadvantage play a huge part in match-ups.

Even Olimar can't shieldgrab well spaced Bairs.

This is true. I'm an Olimar main... I've tried.

Where, exactly, in central Jersey do you live. 0_o

 

[RPK]

The Wario cg only works from 59% to about 200%. Wolf can escape with down b if you start anywhere below 59%.

Huh...I thought it went from 20-200. 59% though is still pretty low =\ But atleast they wont be able to combo into their grab at that point. Atleast I think o.O I dont know Wario too well to know that ._.

 

[castorpollux]

Lol is that you pink? this is jj

u still owe me 5 dollars =O

 

[ArcPoint]

Oh hey, Mr. Pink. This is Locke, that one Wolf player you played at the Grapevine a while ago xD

Just while we're remembering people =)

 

[Turbo Ether]

JJ, if i'm not mistaken, aren't you from Massachusets?

 

[castorpollux]

im from mass and cali =O

 

[Turbo Ether]

Cool, there's a super slight chance that i'll attend the tournament in Mass this weekend!

 

[castorpollux]

Cool, there's a super slight chance that i'll attend the tournament in Mass this weekend!

OH ****! that'd be awesome! Which one? NE Council of Smash? It might be moving to Rhode Island which is closer to jersey i think

 

[ArcPoint]

Oh shiz, rep that Wolf.