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Wolfs getting mega nerfed in 3.0

Predatoria

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No, that's the thing. In Smash 4, most of their balancing was complete bull**** with almost no rhyme or reason. Greninja started out with a glitch where he could actually shadow sneak out of his moves to negate endlag. For example, he could Dair into the ground, then shadow sneak to the side to punish a punish. It was cool, but admittedly unfair. They patched it out, then proceeded to nerf his damage...then did it again....then nerfed the knockback on some of his moves....then added some lag to other moves. The sad part was that he was NEVER considered high tier in Smash 4 at any stage other than MAYBE the very beginning yet they continued to bash him into the ground, hence the internet meme "Better nerf Greninja". It was like a run-on joke that with every patch, there was an obligatory Greninja nerf. Meanwhile, you had characters like Cloud and Bayo that went on to completely dominate the competitive scene with little to no meaningful nerfs at all (likely to promote the sale of their DLC). Several heavies even took nerfs despite never ranking more than low tier. Don't get me wrong, Smash 4 had the best initial balancing of any Smash that proceeded it, but as time when on, I couldn't really see a coherent rationale for how they chose who to buff or nerf. Ultimate is undoubtedly the best balanced so far, but as Sean^2 stated above, we don't really know for sure what kind of methodology they're going to use moving forward.
Unfortunately, I'd be concerned that a similar pattern will emerge here then. Wolf may indeed be safe, so, I suppose for all Wolf mains this may present good news.

3.0.0 will be a very revealing patch that will likely foretell how their balancing team will approach the rest of the entire game's lifespan. I do hope they don't go down a path you described here, especially since I main Ridley, a character routinely placed into low tier.

I do have my own personal theory on why Bayonetta and Cloud remained as strong as they did, and it unfortunately also does not bode particularly well for Ultimate. Those two character were DLC, which meant Nintendo could count on more players paying for access to those characters if they were overtuned. I was actually quite surprised to see Pirhana Plant not come out OP. We'll really have to wait and see if Joker ends up S tier, as they're really the first character that requires being paid for, as you could get PP by just registering your SSBU copy online.
 

Sean²

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An interesting thing to look at would be the past history of balancing patches in Smash 4 for a bit of pretext.

In Smash4, how strong were the various patches that balanced characters?

In Smash4, did it seem that characters that were topping the ladder in tourney play got nerfed? Was there a good correlation between tourney play and who saw buffs / nerfs?

If it's being left up to the Smash team to do the balancing (which it likely was left up to in Smash 4 as well), it's likely going to follow a similar type of cycle.
From what I understand, Sakurai had the final say on all balancing concerns in previous Smash titles. He was ultimately responsible for all the polarizing balance issues that existed in any previous Smash title.

We all understand Sakurai's mentality when it comes to dumbing games down over building players up. I dunno if it was his decision to step back from the throne a bit for his own health, or if someone with more authority than he does put their foot down. Or a bit of both.

Yeah I didn't really pay much attention during Smash 4 so I have no idea what Nintendo's nerf / buff balancing patches are like. I'm curious to hear more about what Smash 4's patches were like, which may grant some insight as to whether or not Wolf may end up on the chopping block in 3.0.

For example, in Smash 4 did Nintendo tend to nerf characters that were overly-represented in tournaments? Or were the nerfs seemingly "dartboard-like," or, random and had little to no correlation to what was going on in the competitive scene.
Well, they never released patch notes, so 100% of it was guesswork and testing via the community. And yes, several high profile characters got nerfed. Diddy Kong lost the low % hoo hah kill confirm and it just turned into a good autocombo. Sheik had multiple things nerfed across several patches until ultimately losing her fthrow>bouncing fish combo. But they were also very popular characters online, as well. Greninja got nerfed hard, early, and he was nowhere near the dominant forces that were Diddy and Sheik. Same with Luigi, patch 1.1.1 nearly ruined his combo game.

Then you had really terrible characters like Puff, who went the entirety of S4 without a single change. Then you had characters like Marth who would receive multiple buffs each patch, to the point where he was almost a top tier contender. I played Duck Hunt, and while he received a couple small buffs here and there, he was left fairly unchanged at the core. His smashes did not connect properly and two of them were rendered almost useless due to this.

Their changes were all over the place and some things just didn't make a lot of sense. Like reducing Luigi's fireball from 6% to 5% out of nowhere, for seemingly no reason, when you still had ZSS rage boost kick killing at stupidly low percents off the top.
 

Firox

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Unfortunately, I'd be concerned that a similar pattern will emerge here then. Wolf may indeed be safe, so, I suppose for all Wolf mains this may present good news.

3.0.0 will be a very revealing patch that will likely foretell how their balancing team will approach the rest of the entire game's lifespan. I do hope they don't go down a path you described here, especially since I main Ridley, a character routinely placed into low tier.

I do have my own personal theory on why Bayonetta and Cloud remained as strong as they did, and it unfortunately also does not bode particularly well for Ultimate. Those two character were DLC, which meant Nintendo could count on more players paying for access to those characters if they were overtuned. I was actually quite surprised to see Pirhana Plant not come out OP. We'll really have to wait and see if Joker ends up S tier, as they're really the first character that requires being paid for, as you could get PP by just registering your SSBU copy online.
I'm right there with you. I suspected that they had left Cloud and Bayo broken as a sort of "pay to win" strategy for selling DLC. That said, I also was surprised to find that Plant wasn't broken, but as you stated, that could be partially do to the fact that he wasn't really "paid for". Just judging from what I know of Joker from P5 and how his build is, I would imagine he'll be a fast, medium-weight character with some decent disjoints due to his knife. This would give him some serious promise as a high-tier character, but how high? We'll have to see if Nintendo pulls the greed card and overtunes him to inspire sales.
 

Sean²

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I don't think they intended Bayo or Cloud to be "pay to win" characters. I think the large reason they were left as they were, was because very shortly after their release, the entire team moved onto begin development for Ultimate. The last S4 patch was an 'emergency' patch to tone down Bayo a bit, and was likely never intended to occur. Until they started getting numerous complaints, that is.

Then if you look at Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Corrin, and Ryu, they all floated anywhere between pretty good to kind of bad. Roy was especially underwhelming.

Anyway, I feel the opposite. I feel like they might slightly undertune the DLC this time around, then bring them up to speed with further patches, like they did with Mewtwo in S4.
 

plot52

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Is there anything that even explicitly needs nerfing besides that down smash and maybe some blaster lag?Because besides that I don’t think he like desperately needs that much
back air????? SIDE B adv. on shield and side b with 0 end lag is dumbbbbb. other than those 5 things hes gucci
 

Firox

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back air????? SIDE B adv. on shield and side b with 0 end lag is dumbbbbb. other than those 5 things hes gucci
Firstly, back air takes ten years to wind up so I don't see the problem with a trade off of power. As for side B, it DOES have endlag and I'd just like to point out that while Fox and Falco can both use Side B AND up B to recover, Wolf has to choose between one of two mediocre recovery options. With such glaring weaknesses, I don't see how ppl can justify nerfing him too hard.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I don't think Wolf needs to be nerfed too much, but I might turn down some of the damage output of some of his moves by 3 or 4%, My friend mains him and I just go from 0 to 60 in a couple hits. I would do the same with Peach. They both have balanced moves, but their damage output is a little much.
You do need to take into account the damage multiplier bonus that's used in 1-on-1 matches as well.
 

Gamer Cube

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What do you mean, "Yes."? Srsly i'm freakin impressed

You do need to take into account the damage multiplier bonus that's used in 1-on-1 matches as well.
Usually when I play with my friend, it's not a 1v1 though so the multiplier doesn't matter. he just outspaces me with his aerials and projectiles. Little Mac can't handle that type of character, seriously!
 

Sean²

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SIDE B adv. on shield
did you confuse Wolf with Peach for a second? At least Wolf's isn't damn near spammable.

Screen Shot 2019-04-17 at 9.33.29 PM.png


Here's the mega nerf boys. One fairly universal projectile nerf and dsmash got its knockback reduced. Though I can't tell just how much because I can't even download the patch.
 

WAR*

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Bravo Nintendo ! no overreact, just perfect balancing in my opinion . However about f tilt pichu nothing.
Now, let's see in game ; what does really means " Shortened the launch distance of the forward attack. "
 

SJMistery

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No, that's the thing. In Smash 4, most of their balancing was complete bull**** with almost no rhyme or reason. Greninja started out with a glitch where he could actually shadow sneak out of his moves to negate endlag. For example, he could Dair into the ground, then shadow sneak to the side to punish a punish. It was cool, but admittedly unfair. They patched it out, then proceeded to nerf his damage...then did it again....then nerfed the knockback on some of his moves....then added some lag to other moves. The sad part was that he was NEVER considered high tier in Smash 4 at any stage other than MAYBE the very beginning yet they continued to bash him into the ground, hence the internet meme "Better nerf Greninja". It was like a run-on joke that with every patch, there was an obligatory Greninja nerf. Meanwhile, you had characters like Cloud and Bayo that went on to completely dominate the competitive scene with little to no meaningful nerfs at all (likely to promote the sale of their DLC). Several heavies even took nerfs despite never ranking more than low tier. Don't get me wrong, Smash 4 had the best initial balancing of any Smash that proceeded it, but as time when on, I couldn't really see a coherent rationale for how they chose who to buff or nerf. Ultimate is undoubtedly the best balanced so far, but as Sean^2 stated above, we don't really know for sure what kind of methodology they're going to use moving forward.
Dude, Greninja was only nerfed twice and it was NOWHERE near as bad as people say:

Up Smash took a heavy nerf due to the changes in hitbox that messed up the sweetspot on platforms, and became harder to use as a combo-linking move (wich still can be done at low percents and I personally think it should have gotten a bigger endlag nerf, it feels unfair to allow a move that deals ~20% damage to be able to combo/string into itself), but the KO potential was untouched and is still one of the strongest AND safest in the game.

Up Air became unreliable for killing, but the drag-down spike pseudo-infinite combos (ironically the ONE thing they wanted to remove) were unaffected, you can still combo from 30 all the way into 90 with it if you follow the DI perfectly.

Down Smash got lower knockback to compensate the damage increase, even if the official wiki considers it a nerf, the overal KO potential was untouched.

Fair lost a lot of KO potential, wich admittedly was unwarranted considering how laggy and commital it is, but it was latter patched to work better as a spacing tool. And now in Ultimate, we got the best of both words in a devastating move (better range, even better KO potential than pre 1.0.4, more damage and they fixed the blind spot) that is a a "Well, duh" for potential nerfs, as any Greninja main on the forums will tell you.

Hydro Pump became a little less infuriating to play against for half the cast, wich was completely warranted, the gimp/kill potential of that thing pre-nerf was just ridiculous. And in 1.1.5 it got a critical buff that turned it's main downside, the headbonk, into an upside. With the lower angle, you can actually intentionally slam into the walls, and then do a wallcling into a jump in some stages to get EVEN LONGER recovery distance than usual.

Shadow Sneak lost two useful glitches (dair lag cancel and dashing sneak), but was compensated in knockback.

From patch 1.0.6 onwards it's all buffs on a multitude of his attacks, mostly on the knockback of his Smash Attacks (Including Up Smash for some Arceus-forsaken reason), a rework on Down Throw to improve it's combo potential, and general lag decrease on miscellaneous moves.


And in Ultimate, we got a reverted Up Aerial that kills even earlier than before, connects reliably into the final hit even with rage (the main nerf it got in 1.0.4) and has a even better potential for dragwdowns with the reduced lag, improved hitboxes on all the Kunai-based attacks, even FASTER speed, TWO new kill throws (Bthrow and Fthrow that now kill earlier than Uthrow at the ledge, while still being great for positioning and edgeguard setups, especially with the new Shadow Sneak and Fair), a functional counter that kills off a JAB at 70% (or even at 30% if it catches you high up in the air or the semi-guaranteed Uair follow-up connects) and has an OHKO spike to destroy any recovery with hitbox, a reliable and safe high% kill move in FTilt, a combo Dash Attack that rivals pre-patch Meta Knight's, a faster (but laggy) grab, and Hydro Pump and Dair now keep the midair jump for later, making the Headbonk exploit mentioned above even better and allowing Greninja even flashier aerial combo attacks. Oh, and grounded spikes are no longer techable, so, good luck getting out of the Dair kill combo now.

Granted, they nerfed the funniest move in his arsenal, the Down Taunt can no longer true combo into Uair or USmash at kill percent like it did before, but with the new Fair turning the former from a 50/50 into a deadly frame trap and the latter having an improved hitbox that can frame trap on itself (because USmash wasn't good enough already, it now beats airdodges even better, including directional airdodges), and still being usable to bait opponents and cover yourself from some projectiles when charging Shadow Sneak, this is a mere technicallity.

Just check the patch notes yourself if you don't believe me:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Greninja_(SSB4)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Greninja_(SSBU)


As for the meme, we now use it mostly as a rallying cry on his amazing new potential, as well as to mentally prepare ourselves on a likely future nerf of FSmash, USmash, Shadow Sneak, Uair, Substitute and Fair, wich every Greninja main agrees are completely busted.
 
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Sean²

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Bravo Nintendo ! no overreact, just perfect balancing in my opinion . However about f tilt pichu nothing.
Now, let's see in game ; what does really means " Shortened the launch distance of the forward attack. "
They toned down the knockback on the first hit of dsmash. I haven't had time to test it out yet but assuming it probably won't kill at 50% at the ledge any more.
 

Firox

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As for the meme, we now use it mostly as a rallying cry on his amazing new potential, as well as to mentally prepare ourselves on a likely future nerf of FSmash, USmash, Shadow Sneak, Uair, Substitute and Fair, wich every Greninja main agrees are completely busted.
Geez, for a Greninja main, you kinda sound like you hate Greninja. And sure, maybe the nerfs only came in two waves, but as you said yourself, they nerfed more than just two things while other far more overpowered characters were left untouched. My general point of arbitrary balancing remains the same. And stop overreacting about all of Greninja's "completely busted" moves. He's still not generally considered to be in the top 10 competitive characters and if ppl want to sleep on him that's fine by me. I'd rather he go underestimated so that he slips under any potential nerf hammers.
 

SJMistery

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Geez, for a Greninja main, you kinda sound like you hate Greninja. And sure, maybe the nerfs only came in two waves, but as you said yourself, they nerfed more than just two things while other far more overpowered characters were left untouched. My general point of arbitrary balancing remains the same. And stop overreacting about all of Greninja's "completely busted" moves. He's still not generally considered to be in the top 10 competitive characters and if ppl want to sleep on him that's fine by me. I'd rather he go underestimated so that he slips under any potential nerf hammers.
They all lead to easy edgeguards and on the ledge/upper platform they can easily kill at lower percents than many heavyweights' smash attacks.
 

ChrisMDB

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Fortunately, the team managed to do it again. Make it look like he got nerfed when in reality the blaster being worse on shield and lower knockback on DSmash don't mean a thing.
 

Kulak

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I kinda doubt he will be, its a shame they just Nerf good characters, wish they buffed some of the really awful ones.
 

Neverbound

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Fortunately, the team managed to do it again. Make it look like he got nerfed when in reality the blaster being worse on shield and lower knockback on DSmash don't mean a thing.
He lost a great kill move but all around is still good
 

Wyoming

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Honestly I'll take the trade offs. More reliable usmash for a very minor dsmash nerf? Blaster with more lag for a more resourceful Reflector?

Adds some tools without removing any of his great ones.
 

Sean²

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Shine combos feel a lot easier to perform with it being faster now. I don't have a lot of time but seems like it could be true on some characters, or at the very least a missed tech read/DI dependent mixup on platforms but shine to angled-up Flash seems like it could be sick. I was hitting it on Mario around 74-78% in training with the CPU on max DI/SDI. 77-78 kills off the top BF platform with the spike hitbox. I had never really practiced them before because fair and nair were always the better options.

Also, the up B nerfs feel kinda real, some common edgeguarding moves trade or straight up beat out the move now. I guess this is what it's like to be Fox and Falco. :(
 

Sean²

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Uh the only hitbox that got nerfed was the final hit, and that was to rid us of ledge shenanigans when you space the move at max height.
That was just my first impression from messing around in training mode for 20 or so minutes. It ended up being not as bad as I thought.

I did get the last hit knocked away by a Mario falling nair, which is a move I had always thought the last hit's range beat out before. So edgeguarding him isn't going to be as scary for a lot more characters now.
 

MERPIS

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That was just my first impression from messing around in training mode for 20 or so minutes. It ended up being not as bad as I thought.

I did get the last hit knocked away by a Mario falling nair, which is a move I had always thought the last hit's range beat out before. So edgeguarding him isn't going to be as scary for a lot more characters now.
Its....Literally just the same but just with less ledge sharking
 

Qualudes

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As a wolf main I have recognized that Wolf (in addition to a plethora of other characters) need to be brought to heel if this game is going to remain relevant as a competitive fighter for years to come. That being said, the nerf to his up-B was perfectly warranted, but the nerf to his blaster was not. His Up-B would get you free kills on some stages and needed to be tuned down. Wolf's blaster maybe deserved a slight damage nerf (meaning 1-2% over it's trajectory), but it was essential to his play-style. Increasing it's end-lag has actually gutted him as a character. Zero surmised that nerfing his Blaster effectively dropped him an an entire tier (from Top to High) and I think that illustrates how significant the nerf actually was. I think Nintendo has done a remarkably good job with the patches in this iteration of smash as far as balance is concerned, but if they continue to nerf characters based on the casual perspective then the game will undoubtedly suffer as did smash 4 (Pre Bayo and Cloud DLC patch).
 

Sean²

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Its....Literally just the same but just with less ledge sharking
And? That’s all I’m saying. It’s less scary to edgeguard him because you’re not gonna die if you get hit by up B at the ledge while he’s recovering unless you do something dumb.

I had a Mario drop down with a falling nair and beat out the last hit with no repercussion to him. I didn’t know if up B’s last hit would have outranged his nair prepatch. Considering the change, according to the patch notes, was giving it less range, I thought it was a reasonable question to ask.
 
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MERPIS

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Increasing it's end-lag has actually gutted him as a character. Zero surmised that nerfing his Blaster effectively dropped him an an entire tier (from Top to High) and I think that illustrates how significant the nerf actually was. I think Nintendo has done a remarkably good job with the patches in this iteration of smash as far as balance is concerned, but if they continue to nerf characters based on the casual perspective then the game will undoubtedly suffer as did smash 4 (Pre Bayo and Cloud DLC patch).
Its
3
frames
shut
up
Blaster is still one of the best projectiles in the game hands down the nerf barely touched his what so ever.
 

SJMistery

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Its
3
frames
shut
up
Blaster is still one of the best projectiles in the game hands down the nerf barely touched his what so ever.
Plus, that thing pre-patch graduated on the top of it's class on the Falco Lombardi School of F* You
 
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Kiligar

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The blaster is gross. A close range fighter like Wolf shouldn’t be sitting back and clicking B with huge rewards to damage, conditioning the opponent safely for easy punishes when they try to evade the blaster. The blaster nerf was a beautiful thing, and was necessary. You got a better reflector in exchange, and it was not even a problem before. You should be grateful you didn’t suffer the same fate as Olimar and Pichu, of course a small pool of characters with a huge advantage over others will be trimmed down to size.
 

MERPIS

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The blaster is gross. A close range fighter like Wolf shouldn’t be sitting back and clicking B with huge rewards to damage, conditioning the opponent safely for easy punishes when they try to evade the blaster. The blaster nerf was a beautiful thing, and was necessary. You got a better reflector in exchange, and it was not even a problem before. You should be grateful you didn’t suffer the same fate as Olimar and Pichu, of course a small pool of characters with a huge advantage over others will be trimmed down to size.
buff in disguise blaster was given a tap on the wrist at worst, jab is actually usable as a get off me move now and reflector is now amazing
 
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WolfCypher

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Down Smash (Front Hit)
  • Reduced base knockback: 56 -> 37
  • Increased knockback growth: 82 -> 93
In layman's terms?
 

Qualudes

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Its
3
frames
shut
up
Blaster is still one of the best projectiles in the game hands down the nerf barely touched his what so ever.
I over-reacted. Landing with it was a bad habit that I got a lot of mileage out of online. I have adjusted and learned how to incorporate his shine more reliably. I will shut-up now.
 

Firox

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I over-reacted. Landing with it was a bad habit that I got a lot of mileage out of online. I have adjusted and learned how to incorporate his shine more reliably. I will shut-up now.
I've been trying to incorporate shine more like I used to in brawl but I've been having a hard time. Does anyone else feel like the hitbox is super tiny? Also, how long do the invincibility frames last?
 

Sean²

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I've been trying to incorporate shine more like I used to in brawl but I've been having a hard time. Does anyone else feel like the hitbox is super tiny? Also, how long do the invincibility frames last?
You could almost use it like a counter in Brawl as you could act out of shine sooner than you can in Ultimate. It also helped that there was virtually no hitstun in Ultimate so you could easily combo break people with it. I believe the FAF was frame 27 in Brawl and 32 in Ultimate. I know you could do a double jump shine and still be able to do a Bair out of it in Brawl.

The new invincibility frames are frame 5 to 8 according to this.

Generally I get more mileage out of it either falling on someone with it or using it mid combo, rather than trying to use the grounded version to start with. The fact that you can't walk through people has made it more difficult to land the hitbox from the ground. But you can still move through them while you're airborne, so it's a bit easier to land it that way.

I landed a Shine to Flash for the KO off the top on a real person for the first time tonight, dunno if he could have acted out of it at the percent he was at and just wasn't ready for the DI, or if it was actually true. Honestly can't remember the exact percent, It was on Diddy around the mid-90% range.
 

Firox

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I landed a Shine to Flash for the KO off the top on a real person for the first time tonight, dunno if he could have acted out of it at the percent he was at and just wasn't ready for the DI, or if it was actually true. Honestly can't remember the exact percent, It was on Diddy around the mid-90% range.
Sweet mother of feck, that sounds awesome! I gotta start practicing that!
 

Sean²

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Sweet mother of feck, that sounds awesome! I gotta start practicing that!
Yeah, at certain percents it sends them at the perfect angle for an angled-up flash. The faster shine seems to be able to facilitate landing this a tiny bit easier.

Again, dunno if he could have airdodged but it's a pretty good mix-up if you think they won't be ready for it.
 
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