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Wolf: Official Character Discussion

Ulevo

Smash Master
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Dec 5, 2007
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Unlimited Blade Works
Discussion for Wolf. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:
 

The Cape

Smash Master
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I have an interesting idea for Wolf

Make his D throw have a set knockback. It should send out in front of him the distance of a tipped forward smash and knock the person down. This way he could setup for tech chasing, or F smash on a missed tech.

Its an interesting idea because the move scales stupid high and sends straight out across the stage. This is a more practical use and can lead to some great setups for Wolf.
 

The Cape

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What about this idea for Wolf Shine?

reflector
6 (invincible)
7-14 (8)
15-28 (14)
28 total

The frame data is setup as follows:
Warmup, hit frames, cooldown, total

Something interesting to do would make it hit up and away and then speed up the entire move. Basically give it the same KB stats as it has but hit up and away to remove the wall infinites but make it winddown faster so you can combo off it better.

Thinking frames something like this:
6
7-14
15-22
22 total

What do you all think of that idea?
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Some cooldown lessening would rawk hard. Though, I'm not sure about changing the trajectory, would that goof up the stun combos he has from it? EX: Dair > shine > Dair > shine or Bair > shine > Bair > shine etc.
 

The Cape

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Well I was thinking having similar KB on it so they kind of lazily arc up and away. This way you can actually link a few more interesting combos.

Not thinking Falco shine here :-p
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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That's what I was also wanting, Utilt cooldown should be less, it's such a useless move and it could be a bit better if it had less endlag.
 

Foxy

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I tend to use his utilt actually quite a bit when I play him... but probably just because it seems cool (like Marth's utilt right now) but isn't actually that good.

I would definitely agree with speeding up his shine and utilt.

The dthrow suggestion is also good, wolf seems to lack good tech-chase setups and it would bring a bit more skill into his game. The current trajectory and gain is pretty gay.

Otherwise... anyone up for buffing his recovery? I'm not sure what exact changes could help his forward B or up B for recovery beyond extra grab range... actually, taking a lot of cooldown off of his up B is probably a good idea. Everyone has seen how insanely slow the end is, it's just ridiculous.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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So I'm playing some Wolf recently and realize he has the same 'problem' that Falcon had with his D-air. I'd argue techchasing D-airs is far more important for Wolf then Falcon which is why I propose 2 changes to his D-air. The first should only go through if Falcon gets his d-air buff, the other because it pisses me off.

1.) Do whatever Kupo did to Falcon's d-air to Wolf.

2) Speed the d-air up or something. Unless someone is in THE EXACT right spot he can't risk spiking people because of his atrocious recovery.

I'd much rather see a d-air fix then the proposed U-tilt fix we have.

EDIT: Do we want to mess with the no flinch frames on his N-air? Like we did with Zard's F-air?
 

kupo15

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I'll agree to that. His dair is terrible. If you have trouble tech chasing with it, its because teching is speed up too much imo. But that is another topic. Idk how I feel about the speed up change
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Nair fix like Zard's would be sweet as hell, because Nair is so useless in comparison to his other moves and I know he could be a lot better if he could actually use that move in his mixup game. A Dair buff sounds lovely to me, actually.
 

kupo15

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The speed up is so he can spike with his actual spike move. If he goes for the spike he'll probably suicide.
I wouldn't mind more kb and faster. However, the only speed I would agree to would be less cool down lag. We should make the move easier to hit with, but make the reward for using the move less risky.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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I wouldn't mind more kb and faster. However, the only speed I would agree to would be less cool down lag. We should make the move easier to hit with, but make the reward for using the move less risky.
Exactly. Try it, it auto cancels (or is **** close) at the 50% ALR when you short hop. Now short hop it off the side of a stage. He was to bring his hands back up into position before he can jump or recover.
 

storm92

Smash Ace
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So in the IRC we were discussing these possible changes:

Almost For Sures
- Bigger Uair hitbox, moved down so the upper hitbox is the same area but his body becomes a hitbox as well
- More DI after upB
- Bigger Utilt hitbox

Maybe
- SideB allows for regaining a jump after hitting an opponent with it in mid-air
- Dair +4 BKB, -7 KBG
- Fair ALR decrease
- Dash attack outside hit sends at a 70 or 110 angle
- Utilt -3 frames on cooldown
- Shine hitbox frame 6 (1 frame off start-up), winddown decrease (3-5 frames)

Why Not?
- Frying pan-style semispike on blaster bayonet hit
 

The Cape

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Going off what we had here:

Weak hit of sideB gives a 45 degree angle with fixed KB
Side B gives jump back on hit only
Bigger Uair hitbox
More DI after upB
Bigger U tilt hitbox
Third jab has less growth
Less ****ty Dash attack
Dair cleanup (that Leaf had)

Those would be awesome and sideB is the ony big change.
 

leafgreen386

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Actually, I think the growth on his jab is fine. A slightly higher angle would help it more than anything.

My list of changes I'd like to see for wolf to be perfect:
1) upB connects properly and can be DI'd after use
2) less winddown on shine
3) nair tweak (see below)
4) dair tweak
5) uair tweak

Anything else would just be icing on the cake.

Some explanations:

1) This is just fixing something that doesn't work right. For the upB, we should try replacing the ending animation with the fall special animation using the CAM to enable DI immediately after finishing the upB. To make it connect properly we'll just need to mess with the hitboxes a bit until it works right.

2) I'd take less winddown on shine over a lot of the stuff you listed there, cape. Actually, not even "shine." Just "aerial shine" would be fine if speeding up the grounded shine somehow broke it, since largely what I had in mind for it was for you to be able to perform shine -> aerial. The trajectory is already there, but the frame advantage isn't.

3) As I play wolf more and more, I'm noticing that despite having a horrible hitbox, his nair is incredibly useful at almost any percent because the later hits of the move were given 40 base and almost no growth, while the move itself has low lag, making it great for comboing (even into kill moves... nair -> dsmash is legit until the nair tumbles). Unfortunately, after a certain point, the move starts to tumble, at which point it becomes almost worthless, since all it sets up for is a techchase. As the opponent climbs in percent, you have to hit progressively later and later in the attack in order to do anything off of it, which makes it really really predictable. I'd like to drop the growth on this move to be nearly nonexistent (and possibly raise the base slightly) to make it a reliable move at any (reasonable) percent. Probably gonna leave the initial hit roughly the same as it is now since it's supposed to be the strong hit, but turn the remaining three hits into a reliable combo setup at high percents.

4) When we first implemented the dair change, all we did was increase its base, with no change to its growth. I like this version of the dair that launches more at higher percents, since it gives him a reliable way to use his upB for kills at high percents, while still comboing into plenty of other things at lower percents (and actually doing so better than the old dair, imo), but I think it could just be a little bit more solid if it had slightly more base and slightly less growth. I haven't tested the values I've given yet, but after thinking about it more, I think I'm gonna need to redo that tweak.

5) The uair tweak would just make it a bit more useful against shorter characters or for quickly popping an opponent back up who is about to hit the ground. A relatively minor tweak, and would just make the move a little more solid.

edit: Eh... why not? Cape convinced me. Although everything here is pretty small on its own, together it adds up, so I'm not expecting everything to make it in (nor do I think everything should make it in), but these are the rest of our options that merit looking at imo.

6) Jab tweak: Change the third hit jab's angle to 80 degrees (I believe it's around 70 right now) and drop one or two frames of lag. I still stand by the growth being fine on this move and that a slight angle and endlag change would be enough to make it really solid.

7) Utilt tweak: -3 frames of endlag, raise its base a bit and slightly lower its growth. It already has a pretty nice hitbox in front of him, actually, and it needs to actually combo into something more than it needs to have snake tilt properties (I think that it's already slightly disjointed, so making it moreso would just be ******** and unnecessary). Knocking off three frames should let it combo into stuff, but seeing as that would pave the way for ******** tilt chains, shifting some growth over to base would then be necessary.

8) Fair ALR decrease: At one point, this was actually in the set, but for some reason it got taken out (space constraints?). It was at 40% before, which worked really nicely for the occasion you would want to perform a FF fair and actually being able to follow up with any amount of haste, but the move was still pretty punishable on shield or miss (which is a good thing).

9) Dash attack tweak: Instead of homogenizing the outside hit, I'd actually rather make it better at what it already does, which is getting a foe offstage. Drop the angle slightly on the outside hit and it'd be good. This is the true icing on the cake of unnecessary but useful tweaks.
 

ZodiakLucien

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some of the changes I see I can understand, like buffing the dash attack and utilt. Though giving the uair a bigger hitbox? Unless you guys are trying to making his body a hitbox I can understand, but I wouldnt make it have any higher hitbox. It already beats out a lot of stuff.

The lag on the shine shouldnt be buffed to much, its invincibility makes it able to get him out of situations where other characters simply cant get out of. It is amazing to use defensively. People just want to use it offensively which is why they think it needs to be buffed a lot.

Dair I think is amazing, combos into a charged dsmash, fair, or the new side B. How much he is able to move forward during his shorthop while doing it makes it hard to punish if you are smart with it. It also does work for tech chasing.

I dont like the idea of the dthrow having a set knockback. At higher percents when you dthrow them at the ledge it practically spikes them. Setting them up to edgeguards perfectly.
 

leafgreen386

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some of the changes I see I can understand, like buffing the dash attack and utilt. Though giving the uair a bigger hitbox? Unless you guys are trying to making his body a hitbox I can understand, but I wouldnt make it have any higher hitbox. It already beats out a lot of stuff.
We have the ability to move hitboxes, so while the hitbox would be bigger, it would still hit roughly the same above him as it does now. That was the fundamental idea behind the uair change - to allow him to hit chars with it closer to the ground without making it any better for hitting above him.

The lag on the shine shouldnt be buffed to much, its invincibility makes it able to get him out of situations where other characters simply cant get out of. It is amazing to use defensively. People just want to use it offensively which is why they think it needs to be buffed a lot.
I've calculated that to guarantee a followup (the tightest ones being frame perfect) against all characters, we will need to remove 9 frames of lag (possibly 8, actually... I don't have complete data for all chars, so I had to make a few assumptions) from the shine. This is for a FJ shine -> any aerial except dair, which comes out too slow. We have the ability to edit the grounded and aerial shines separately, so we could make it so that he would only have these followups from fairly high in the air, rather than being able to do something such as dsmash or fsmash from a grounded shine.

Dair I think is amazing, combos into a charged dsmash, fair, or the new side B. How much he is able to move forward during his shorthop while doing it makes it hard to punish if you are smart with it. It also does work for tech chasing.
I agree that his dair is amazing, and the talk from earlier in the thread is actually about the dair before it had its base increased, when it didn't tumble until 40% or so against some characters. For the more recent dair discussion, I wanna just slightly tweak the move from the way it is now - he's got setups from it at almost any reasonable percent... except very low percents against certain characters, which it doesn't tumble. Although just raising the base more would result in it not working to combo into stuff as late as it does currently, so the growth would be lowered slightly to compensate. As a result, it would reliably tumble the whole cast from zero and also work for slightly longer than it does now.

I dont like the idea of the dthrow having a set knockback. At higher percents when you dthrow them at the ledge it practically spikes them. Setting them up to edgeguards perfectly.
I was originally confused as to why you mentioned this, but then I realized cape had suggested that a long time ago earlier in the thread. We actually weren't even considering that anymore.

I'm curious as to which of these buffs you think should make it in, lucien. Or if there's something we haven't thought of that you think should be there.
 

ZodiakLucien

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the more di after the up B is a must. I think for all spacies. mid air shine to bair would be badass I admit. But my fear is like shine to dsmash as you mentioned. Making the utilt a little faster also wouldnt be a bad idea.
 

leafgreen386

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the more di after the up B is a must. I think for all spacies. mid air shine to bair would be badass I admit. But my fear is like shine to dsmash as you mentioned. Making the utilt a little faster also wouldnt be a bad idea.
Yeah... I was thinking about the problem of someone shining such that their lag is over as they land, and then dsmashing. Against some characters, this would be a combo, while against others, it would not. It would require very good positioning and timing of the shine, though, since I think that if they land before the shine ends it would have the full grounded lag. I would need to test to make sure of that, though. It may also be avoidable with SDI.
 

leafgreen386

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So after talking with lucien, we're going to try doing this:

1) upB fixes
2) aerial shine lag reduction
3) utilt tweak
4) nair tweak
5) uair tweak
6) dair tweak? We didn't really talk about this one

Basically, my original list + utilt, before I decided to just edit in all of our options.

The following were deemed unnecessary:
1) dash attack tweak
2) jab tweak
3) fair ALR decrease
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Recent tournaments have shown that Wolf is actually pretty good. I don't think we should consider to do anymore changes to him based on the results from most recent tourneys (such as Canada's tourney they had on Saturday, MD/VA's Hackfests see Seagull do so well with Wolf). It's shown that we've made a character who was considered mid low in vBrawl, pretty much high tier right now imo.
 

leafgreen386

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I'd still like to actually finish the job we started out before PSA was released >_>

Which means:
1) Add a uair hitbox that hits shorties
2) Make nair properly multihit
3) Aerial shine IASA

I've already got this all coded up in PSA. I don't think any of it is "too much" and it's pretty much the finishing polish.
 
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