Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Keep control of the stage.
Blaster when appropriate
Wario B -> to Wolf up smash is a nice killer because of the toss wario does it doesn't give you opponent a window to react.
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.:Wolf Doubles Discussion:.
- Thread starter MidnightAsaph
- Start date
Blaster when appropriate
Wario B -> to Wolf up smash is a nice killer because of the toss wario does it doesn't give you opponent a window to react.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
Both Wario and Wolf have a decent weight, so you shouldn't worry about one character being prone to early deaths.
Keep Wolf in the middle, because he is more prone to gimps than others. Always keep your back to your partner, Wario, and face your enemy.
This is an interesting team, due in part to the fact they have such good horizontal maneuverability in the air. Something tells me that a lot of weaving is in order here. Neither Wolf or Wario have a problem killing either, so I think that a lot of unpredictable movement from the both of them can land a lot of hits and following behind that, kill moves.
I think Wario should weave more than Wolf though, obviously because he's not prone to being gimped. But because Wolf is also easily comboed, Wario's objective should be to interrupt any problems Wolf is having. And because Wario is so quick in the air, I can easily see him running between his own fight and Wolf's without a problem.
These are quick thoughts, so I may have holes. Anyone feel free to come at me.
There's no order anymore. Do what you like.
With PT, you'll have combos with bullet seed and flamethrower. Wolf's dthrow to either of those would be ****. Just remember, Gah, that in team matches, you're looking at each char's moveset to see how easily they can be linked with one another. So, whichever character you are using, look at your partner to see how you can follow up from their attacks. For example, it's easy to follow up on DDD's dthrow, because you know where the opp. will end up being.
As for Lucario, I would honestly throw him around the entire stage to soak up damage. After that, it might be good to push the opp.s outwards and then finally kill them with Lucario's new damage. I think, because Lucario has strength at this point, spam is necessary to keep him alive as long as possible.
Example of a move perfect to follow up on.
Dv8tor
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2008
- Messages
- 226
The Wario/Wolf pair seems very potent, I like the idea as the aerial game will be dominated by those two.
Thanks for the idea Gangsta, I will definitely use that combo if I can. Maybe I can boost smash into it, that would be interesting.
By the way AY-SAF, I have always thought that's how you pronounced your name, glad I got it right.
Thanks for the idea Gangsta, I will definitely use that combo if I can. Maybe I can boost smash into it, that would be interesting.
By the way AY-SAF, I have always thought that's how you pronounced your name, glad I got it right.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
You and Arcpoint. Seagull still says it wrong. >_>
Tell me how things go for these doubles, if you do attend.
Arrows
Smash Journeyman
Wait whhat.
Isn't your name
Eh-Saf.
0.o WHHHATT
CF and wolf? Are you kidding me? no can do man xD.
Isn't your name
Eh-Saf.
0.o WHHHATT
CF and wolf? Are you kidding me? no can do man xD.
Dv8tor
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2008
- Messages
- 226
Dude, it's Turkey, what do you expect?You and Arcpoint. Seagull still says it wrong. >_>
Tell me how things go for these doubles, if you do attend.
I am going for sure, it's on the 6th I think.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
the current national brawl doubles champions in Australia are me and tedeth, snake and wolf, and let me tell you its a **** team.
I'll link ted to this thread and he can tell you all about the ****.
I'll link ted to this thread and he can tell you all about the ****.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
Cool, thanks Luke. It would be nice to hear what you are doing, because I have a friend that uses Snake here and there in doubles. We don't generally have a set plan with those two, but we have like, one trick up our sleeve. Thanks.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Yo tell me why my Snake in doubles is the best cowardly Snake in existance? I'm still loling at that **** XD We do need more tricks, though down grab to up tilt still works...
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
I think shine + C4 is still flashy and amazing. haha But yeah, down throw works with everything.
impostoroak557
Smash Cadet
'nade to Blaster is one of the things I see a lot with those two.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
how about downthrow to uptilt on a marth at 50%, then chase the marth up with snakes uair getting a kill. ahh that sure was lols, the marth was pretty stunned.
anyways yeah, I'll post some vids up later and I'll let ted expand on the subject since he'll be able to explain how they work better then me.
but once you master the technique we invented, the "walls of Elysium" you'll lol at everyone.
anyways yeah, I'll post some vids up later and I'll let ted expand on the subject since he'll be able to explain how they work better then me.
but once you master the technique we invented, the "walls of Elysium" you'll lol at everyone.
tedeth
Smash Master
Nah yeah we have some pretty **** strats. I'll elaborate on them later today if I get some time.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
Dude, tell me now. haha
Thanks, I'm interested. Hopefully it's game breaking for my Wolf+Snake team. =D
Arrows
Smash Journeyman
Are we gonna discuss falcon? Or should we go to someone VIABLE?
Olimar? IC?
Olimar? IC?
tedeth
Smash Master
Ok so I'll explain basically how we do Wolf/Snake.
Like in alot of doubles teams, both players need to be very aware of their roles. We play a pretty complex strategy in that we have alot different situation that we use a certain strategy in. Basically our major goal against most combinations we play against is to get the "Walls of Elysium" going. It's basically camping in doubles.
The standard "Walls of Elysium" (Elysium is our crew before you ask), is just Wolf spamming the **** out of blaster/SH blaster and Snake lobbing grenades over the top of him. This doesn't sound like much but even in a 2v2 situation this can do some good damage to the opponents. The grenades are quite damaging by themselves as you'd already know, but the blaster adds a fair bit of unpredictability to it.
It's difficult to defend against, especially on a stage like FD, because you can pretty much have snake throwing grenades constantly, with less lag than usual, because the blaster will often hit grenades, allowing him to throw another one quickly. As I mentioned before, this also adds some unpredictability because the blaster disrupts the usual grenade timing. If someone tries to pick one up, they get hit with a blaster. If that doesn't make the 'nade explode, snake can just grenade strip, which means they take a blaster, a nade, and then potentially another blaster.
The "Walls of Elysium" is best space with snake's back to the edge. Even if somebody gets through our spam, we space ourselves so that wolf is just out of snake's utilt range. This cuts off alot of approaching options. If an opponent tries to jump over wolf, wolf uses uair, which will often force an airdodge to the ground, right into a snake utilt/ftilt. Get *****. While it's not necessary to have a ledge begind snake it does make it alot easier. HOWEVER, if snake has a mine behind him that deters opponents from going over there anyway.
A further expansion on this is to plant a c4 under wolf. The only downside to this is that Wolf must be aware of the timing and not be standing on the c4 when it explodes (duh). BUT if wolf gets a grab while standing on the c4, he can dthrow as snake detonates the c4. Wolf's hurtbox actually goes higher than the c4's hitbox can reach, so the opponent takes damage and knockback from the c4 rather than the dthrow.
If there is no c4 below wolf, he can bthrow to a snake uair or DJ nair really easily
Dthrow > Mine is lols.
We love dthorw utilt. Peopele seem to miss the tech more in doubles because there's so much going on so you can like dthrow someone accross the entire stage into a snake utilt. This can be enhanced if Wolf is stickied with a c4. Imagine dthrow, utilt, c4. :O
We also have several starting setups. Let W represent wolf, S represent snake and O represent the opponents. These setups are assuming you all start on level ground and are reasonably close like on SV or delphino or something like that.
IF: W S O O
Ftilt wall. Snake starts with an ftilt, wolf can SH blaster over snake's head (barely which is lols). This means if they try to do anything but shield, they will get hit by snake's ftilt. If they try to jump over it, they will prolly get hit by the laser, which will knock them back down into the ftilt.
This can be implemented decently on FD aswell but snake has to be a bit more careful because he'll actually need to MOVE to hit them with ftilt(god forbid).
IF: S W O1 O2
If 01 doesn't have a decent ranged attack that is also faster than wolf's ftilt, you can safely ftilt in most situations here with wolf, then go straight into "Walls of Elysium". On FD it's usually more practical to go straight into walls of Elysium.
If we don't have "Walls of Elysium" going, generally Wolf does damage while snake stock tanks, then when we get them to a decent % snake throws in an utilt, GG.
Also snake dthrow > wolf charged dsmash is good. We seem to hit that a fair bit and staling wolf's dsmash doesn't matter AS much because you have snake there to kill if necessary.
Using wolf to control the air and snake to control the ground is a good idea if you're near eachother.
I'm sure I'm missing something...
Anyway that's the basic idea...
Like in alot of doubles teams, both players need to be very aware of their roles. We play a pretty complex strategy in that we have alot different situation that we use a certain strategy in. Basically our major goal against most combinations we play against is to get the "Walls of Elysium" going. It's basically camping in doubles.
The standard "Walls of Elysium" (Elysium is our crew before you ask), is just Wolf spamming the **** out of blaster/SH blaster and Snake lobbing grenades over the top of him. This doesn't sound like much but even in a 2v2 situation this can do some good damage to the opponents. The grenades are quite damaging by themselves as you'd already know, but the blaster adds a fair bit of unpredictability to it.
It's difficult to defend against, especially on a stage like FD, because you can pretty much have snake throwing grenades constantly, with less lag than usual, because the blaster will often hit grenades, allowing him to throw another one quickly. As I mentioned before, this also adds some unpredictability because the blaster disrupts the usual grenade timing. If someone tries to pick one up, they get hit with a blaster. If that doesn't make the 'nade explode, snake can just grenade strip, which means they take a blaster, a nade, and then potentially another blaster.
The "Walls of Elysium" is best space with snake's back to the edge. Even if somebody gets through our spam, we space ourselves so that wolf is just out of snake's utilt range. This cuts off alot of approaching options. If an opponent tries to jump over wolf, wolf uses uair, which will often force an airdodge to the ground, right into a snake utilt/ftilt. Get *****. While it's not necessary to have a ledge begind snake it does make it alot easier. HOWEVER, if snake has a mine behind him that deters opponents from going over there anyway.
A further expansion on this is to plant a c4 under wolf. The only downside to this is that Wolf must be aware of the timing and not be standing on the c4 when it explodes (duh). BUT if wolf gets a grab while standing on the c4, he can dthrow as snake detonates the c4. Wolf's hurtbox actually goes higher than the c4's hitbox can reach, so the opponent takes damage and knockback from the c4 rather than the dthrow.
If there is no c4 below wolf, he can bthrow to a snake uair or DJ nair really easily
Dthrow > Mine is lols.
We love dthorw utilt. Peopele seem to miss the tech more in doubles because there's so much going on so you can like dthrow someone accross the entire stage into a snake utilt. This can be enhanced if Wolf is stickied with a c4. Imagine dthrow, utilt, c4. :O
We also have several starting setups. Let W represent wolf, S represent snake and O represent the opponents. These setups are assuming you all start on level ground and are reasonably close like on SV or delphino or something like that.
IF: W S O O
Ftilt wall. Snake starts with an ftilt, wolf can SH blaster over snake's head (barely which is lols). This means if they try to do anything but shield, they will get hit by snake's ftilt. If they try to jump over it, they will prolly get hit by the laser, which will knock them back down into the ftilt.
This can be implemented decently on FD aswell but snake has to be a bit more careful because he'll actually need to MOVE to hit them with ftilt(god forbid).
IF: S W O1 O2
If 01 doesn't have a decent ranged attack that is also faster than wolf's ftilt, you can safely ftilt in most situations here with wolf, then go straight into "Walls of Elysium". On FD it's usually more practical to go straight into walls of Elysium.
If we don't have "Walls of Elysium" going, generally Wolf does damage while snake stock tanks, then when we get them to a decent % snake throws in an utilt, GG.
Also snake dthrow > wolf charged dsmash is good. We seem to hit that a fair bit and staling wolf's dsmash doesn't matter AS much because you have snake there to kill if necessary.
Using wolf to control the air and snake to control the ground is a good idea if you're near eachother.
I'm sure I'm missing something...
Anyway that's the basic idea...
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
ok heres some vids
a grand final set
matches 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0XvphWxYNk (ted used wario in the second match)
matches 3 and 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iovzfxv7POE (7:24 and 8:38 for the lols)
these guys play us alot and are quite used to the "walls", however you'll notice just how effective they can be
heres some more against those guys in winners finals of the same tourney
1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpU6wh9Mvfw
3 and 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BehhHgAEDI
us playing another good team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGrENrywGcQ
so yeah, that should give you some ideas
a grand final set
matches 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0XvphWxYNk (ted used wario in the second match)
matches 3 and 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iovzfxv7POE (7:24 and 8:38 for the lols)
these guys play us alot and are quite used to the "walls", however you'll notice just how effective they can be
heres some more against those guys in winners finals of the same tourney
1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpU6wh9Mvfw
3 and 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BehhHgAEDI
us playing another good team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGrENrywGcQ
so yeah, that should give you some ideas
Arrows
Smash Journeyman
Way to make wolf viable tourny wise 
That stuff is brilliant, although i'd HATE IT to play against you guys xD
That stuff is brilliant, although i'd HATE IT to play against you guys xD
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
look lets face it, ted is a genius. thats all there is too it.
tedeth
Smash Master
Also, to truly master the wolf/snake combo, you have to learn the "bro fist to high five"
Basically, everytime you win a game, you need to bro fist your partner, explode it, and use the exploded bro fists to high 5.
Possibly referred to in one of our videos as "That gay high five thing" by Tibs.
Basically, everytime you win a game, you need to bro fist your partner, explode it, and use the exploded bro fists to high 5.
Possibly referred to in one of our videos as "That gay high five thing" by Tibs.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
I have to say, down throw > utilt > uair is pro. I loved it.
I'm not too sold on the grenade/blaster wall, I think I'll have to try it out or face it myself.
Overall, you have some interesting tid bits there. The dthrow to charge dsmash seems doable. A lot of this stuff, I'd like to test out myself. Thanks.
I'm not too sold on the grenade/blaster wall, I think I'll have to try it out or face it myself.
Overall, you have some interesting tid bits there. The dthrow to charge dsmash seems doable. A lot of this stuff, I'd like to test out myself. Thanks.
tedeth
Smash Master
If you get someone in a 2v1 situation the Walls are just amazing.
Also it's good to note that the Walls are, like everything in this game, more effective on some characters than on others. At Genesis we had this Lucario player red in the face with the rage he felt.
He FINALLY got his aura sphere charged, after taking like 100%+ from blaster and nades, only to have it reflected back into his face. This happened on 2 consecutive stocks. GG Lucario guy.
Also it's good to note that the Walls are, like everything in this game, more effective on some characters than on others. At Genesis we had this Lucario player red in the face with the rage he felt.
He FINALLY got his aura sphere charged, after taking like 100%+ from blaster and nades, only to have it reflected back into his face. This happened on 2 consecutive stocks. GG Lucario guy.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Alot if it's decent.
Just gotta say over here though, most of that stuff double MK will just plow right through, and gimp wolf without a second thought.
Not trying to turn off your hype, in any way shape or form, what I saw looked pretty cool. Just saying though
Just gotta say over here though, most of that stuff double MK will just plow right through, and gimp wolf without a second thought.
Not trying to turn off your hype, in any way shape or form, what I saw looked pretty cool. Just saying though
tedeth
Smash Master
Wow good thing I put that edit in. As I said, some characters it doesn't work against. And yeah, double MK beats it. We will usually go Wario/Snake against double MK.
Although of course to say that as soon as MK gets through, wolf gets gimped is a bit silly. It's not like you're going to run madly offstage just because MK is coming at you.
Although of course to say that as soon as MK gets through, wolf gets gimped is a bit silly. It's not like you're going to run madly offstage just because MK is coming at you.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
No I'm just saying that when wolf that gets sent off edge, he better send off a few hail marys because MK is der to GDS and make sure it happens as painstaking unbelievable as possible :D.
tedeth
Smash Master
However, if anything, the walls would be far more effective for stopping wolf from getting gimped.
Look at it this way, if you're busting out the Walls of Elysium, your setup will be like (M being MK):
S W M
Which means that if wolf gets hit offstage by MK, it becomes:
W S M
Meaning that even though you're offstage, there is a whole snake in front of you with his ridiculous air-bending like tilts. I know my bro Luke has my back.
I mean he only has to delay him for like 1-1.5 seconds for wolf to get back to the edge reasonably safely.
Look at it this way, if you're busting out the Walls of Elysium, your setup will be like (M being MK):
S W M
Which means that if wolf gets hit offstage by MK, it becomes:
W S M
Meaning that even though you're offstage, there is a whole snake in front of you with his ridiculous air-bending like tilts. I know my bro Luke has my back.
I mean he only has to delay him for like 1-1.5 seconds for wolf to get back to the edge reasonably safely.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
....But what about the other mk that slips by as the first grabs you and pummels you as a distraction?
tedeth
Smash Master
Ok Wolf players. New idea. If you're up against double MK. Just run offstage and kill yourself as soon as you hear the word "GO". It will save Gangsta alot of trouble.
Then, if you want to win, pick up MK and find a team partner who also uses MK. It's the ultimate plan. I don't care if you don't like MK, you'll play him because when your opponents see your double MKs, they will proceed to run offstage as soon as they head the word "GO". Then they will be forced to pick double MK!
Of course this has the downside that everyone will be using double MK eventually... oh well... makes things interesting... wait.... no it doesn't. Where did the logic fall down? WHERE!?!?!?
Then, if you want to win, pick up MK and find a team partner who also uses MK. It's the ultimate plan. I don't care if you don't like MK, you'll play him because when your opponents see your double MKs, they will proceed to run offstage as soon as they head the word "GO". Then they will be forced to pick double MK!
Of course this has the downside that everyone will be using double MK eventually... oh well... makes things interesting... wait.... no it doesn't. Where did the logic fall down? WHERE!?!?!?
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Hey now no need for the sarcasm I'm just saying that's the problematic hole in the team, that and a good D3xMarth or GW MK
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
If two MK's stormed the wall and got into position before Wolf got back, he's probably dead anyway. It doesn't take Wolf long to get back, and that Snake has to be pretty useless to not only help prevent Wolf's knockback but also to let two MK's get passed him.
People act like Wolf is offstage for hours when he's hit. And against MK, the moves used would most likely not even put Wolf in that position. Fair is too weak, dash attack can be DIed, etc, etc, etc.
People act like Wolf is offstage for hours when he's hit. And against MK, the moves used would most likely not even put Wolf in that position. Fair is too weak, dash attack can be DIed, etc, etc, etc.
tedeth
Smash Master
In no way did I ever say "This is invincible". Saying it's a "hole" in the strategy is sooooo stupid. I mean, as a point of debate, what would be better against double MK? Not playing defensive? Running at them wildly and screaming "Banzai!!!"?
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
It's not uncommon to be grabbed through your recovery. So while Snake is preoccupied with MK2, MK grab releases leaving you with two options recovery from below, or side B forcing out your by DJ.Which could lead to Downsmash-> Gimp.
And lol ted that was real cute, I brought up double mk to get an understanding of how flexible your strats were when faced with this situation. I'm just trying to make sure you have your **** together before I decide to put things to use...
tedeth
Smash Master
But your arguments were soooooo dumb. You might as well have just said "YOU GET GIMPED YOU GET GIMPED YOU GET GIMPED" and have that as your entire argument.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Meanwhile snake jumps in from behind spiking MK and saves wolf. Yayyyyyy.
Yeah some people treat doubles as 2 one on ones, those people are quite silly
Has anyone thought about trying double wolf yet!?
Everyone, relax.
MK will not wreck this team (double might be another story, idk), and a Wolf that recovers intelligently will not be getting grabbed or hogged out of his recovery.
Tedeth has actually put this in practice, for quite a while if I understand correctly. If there were any massive "holes", I'm sure there are plenty of competent players in Australia that would have found it and exploited it for all it's worth.
But really, everyone just relax x_x
EDIT: my internet is being a pain. Double Wolf, Ether and JJ tried that out before... it's definitely fun, I can say that much
MK will not wreck this team (double might be another story, idk), and a Wolf that recovers intelligently will not be getting grabbed or hogged out of his recovery.
Tedeth has actually put this in practice, for quite a while if I understand correctly. If there were any massive "holes", I'm sure there are plenty of competent players in Australia that would have found it and exploited it for all it's worth.
But really, everyone just relax x_x
EDIT: my internet is being a pain. Double Wolf, Ether and JJ tried that out before... it's definitely fun, I can say that much
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Get gimped then, it happens... teeter on the edge for to long and *****s will shove you off. I know that I'd rather have my stock re moved by KO than being gimped and if you are going against gimp city all ballsy and what not then feel free to get *****. the point of doubles is to band together to nullify your weaknesses as a whole,What your selling me is a tank with poor treading, it's only good stationary. wheres the rest of what you're dealing? other than that I've nothing else to say.
GL HF
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
It's common? Since when have you seen a Wolf grabbed out of his recovery? Don't even answer that question.
Wolf recovering means you lost that scenario. And don't remember Wolf's options with recovery, he has more options in the flash when cancelling is added, and a good Wolf will slide right past both MKs.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Scenario isn't lost till Wolf safely returns to the middle of stage out side of the danger zone.
Power shield grab on semi scaring. grab on scaring, grab on light steping.
We'll test it next doubles
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
That's like saying:
"Easy. Stupid decisions are the only options, so punish them."
You kind of left out all intelligent options there.
tedeth
Smash Master
The argument isn't even about doubles strats anymore...