Wolf Competitive Discussion - Everyone mains Wolf now lol

[Idon]

It's so weird comparing Wolf to old Brawl gameplay. The jump in visual effects is insane.

 

[JosePollo]

Pure conjecture, but after looking at various shots of people getting hit by Wolf Flash I've come up with something I think might maybe be the hitbox possibly, perhaps

I don't fkn know lol

 

[JosePollo]

Wolf's bair does a juicy, juicy 15% sweetspotted mmm~

 

[Chiroz]

Do we have a thread of damage values and such?

 

[JosePollo]

Sure do

https://smashboards.com/threads/spe...bject-to-change-before-retail-version.457242/

 

[MERPIS]

Does anyone know if wolf’s fair still kills or not?

 

[Chiroz]

Does anyone know if wolf’s fair still kills or not?

It seems to me like U-Air and U-Tilt will kill earlier than F-Air. F-Air seems to be retooled into more of a juggle/combo tool from what I’ve seen although to be honest I haven’t tried landing F-Air’s past like 100%, normally I try going for Smashes or B-Airs at that point. So theoretically F-Air could have some super ridiculous KBG, but I don’t think so because landing F-Air at like 0-30% doesn’t have much knockback.

It feels very good to land F-Air though because it leaves the opponent right next and above you so you can continue pressuring.

 

[MERPIS]

It seems to me like U-Air and U-Tilt will kill earlier than F-Air. F-Air seems to be retooled into more of a juggle/combo tool from what I’ve seen although to be honest I haven’t tried landing F-Air’s past like 100%, normally I try going for Smashes or B-Airs at that point. So theoretically F-Air could have some super ridiculous KBG, but I don’t think so because landing F-Air at like 0-30% doesn’t have much knockback.

It feels very good to land F-Air though because it leaves the opponent right next and above you so you can continue pressuring.

Fair's gonna be really stupid for spacing and weaving in and out, I almost wanna say its like a wario fair in that regard.
Is it just me or is his fsmash a lot like Meta Knight's now?

MK's comes out on frame 22, wolfs on frame 20
You have 24 frames to punish MK after he whiffs it, for wolf it's 26 frames
I think some people might be underestimating fsmash a bit..

 

[WarioJim]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that Wolf has gained a wall jump (seen at 2:07)

 

[Ffamran]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that Wolf has gained a wall jump (seen at 2:07)

Wolf had a wall jump in Brawl.

 

[WarioJim]

Huh. I didn't know that. I'm kinda surprised I didn't know that.

 

[MERPIS]

Hows his dsmash doing? Is it still lagless in the endlag department or is it bad? I know it got more startup but it might not matter as much if it is still fast

 

[Chiroz]

Hows his dsmash doing? Is it still lagless in the endlag department or is it bad? I know it got more startup but it might not matter as much if it is still fast

It’s not “lagless”, it’s about the same as F-Smash. If you hit with the 2nd hit there’s even less time to punish you than with F-Smash. It’s also extremely strong.

 

[MERPIS]

It’s not “lagless”, it’s about the same as F-Smash. If you hit with the 2nd hit there’s even less time to punish you than with F-Smash. It’s also extremely strong.

So its still probably gonna be one of his main kill moves along with bair and fsmash

 

[Chiroz]

So its still probably gonna be one of his main kill moves along with bair and fsmash

I would dare say that unless we find a kill setup, D-Smash will be his most realiable kill move. It kills Heavyweights at ~70-80% center stage. It’s like Roy’s Smash 4 F-Smash basically.

 

[MERPIS]

I would dare say that unless we find a kill setup, D-Smash will be his most realiable kill move. It kills Heavyweights at ~70-80% center stage. It’s like Roy’s Smash 4 F-Smash basically.

Does the first hit of dsmash hit harder than the second? It does more damage so does that affect the kill power

 

[Chiroz]

Does the first hit of dsmash hit harder than the second? It does more damage so does that affect the kill power

I am not sure which one does more knockback tbh. They both do ridiculous amount of knockback though.

 

[arzo.cl]

Wolf had a wall jump in Brawl.

yes,i see this in others ultimate game plays

 

[JosePollo]

Does the first hit of dsmash hit harder than the second? It does more damage so does that affect the kill power

Like in Brawl, the back hit does less damage. Endlag is the same as Brawl, just the start-up is a lot longer. It's still a much bigger commitment, though, as a result

 

[MERPIS]

Apparently dash attack kills at a decent percent according to nairo.
Does anyone know if nair kills at a good %

Like in Brawl, the back hit does less damage. Endlag is the same as Brawl, just the start-up is a lot longer. It's still a much bigger commitment, though, as a result

You have literally one more frame to punish the first hit of it than you would mario’s usmash, that's ridiculous.

 

[JosePollo]

Going off of smash 4 KB parameters (and assuming Wolf's KB parameters are the same as Fox's--10 BKB/100 KBG) it should be killing a good 20% or so earlier on just the damage difference of the clean hit (Fox: 9%; Wolf: 10.5%).

But yeah dsmash is still very good (and very strong still), just not spammable like Brawl dsmash was (not that you wanted to spam it, seeing as you were staling his most reliable kill move).

 

[MERPIS]

Going off of smash 4 KB parameters (and assuming Wolf's KB parameters are the same as Fox's--10 BKB/100 KBG) it should be killing a good 20% or so earlier on just the damage difference of the clean hit (Fox: 9%; Wolf: 10.5%).

View attachment 179216

But yeah dsmash is still very good (and very strong still), just not spammable like Brawl dsmash was (not that you wanted to spam it, seeing as you were staling his most reliable kill move).

Ye but no kill move bar I guess MK fsmash(??) is spammable. It at least is safe on whiff, it'll also probably be kinda hard to punish out of shield if spaced well.

 

[T!t!]

Ye but no kill move bar I guess MK fsmash(??) is spammable. It at least is safe on whiff, it'll also probably be kinda hard to punish out of shield if spaced well.

Wolf for sure has better killoptions than the hardread fsmash. Bair has still a lot of killpower and while dsmash maybe isnt equally safe, it's a great option if u get the opponent into a techsituation near the ledge, where dsmash could cover multiple options. Also ftilt which is a pretty safe move, has also decent killpower. Therefore I think it's better we can use nair to force techsituations.

 

[MERPIS]

Wolf for sure has better killoptions than the hardread fsmash. Bair has still a lot of killpower and while dsmash maybe isnt equally safe, it's a great option if u get the opponent into a techsituation near the ledge, where dsmash could cover multiple options. Also ftilt which is a pretty safe move, has also decent killpower. Therefore I think it's better we can use nair to force techsituations.

MK stands for META KNIGHT
But if I'm not mistaken, isn't bair's killing hitbox on his foot only?

 

[JosePollo]

Yeah the sweetspot is a tipper hitbox on his foot, so you have to space to avoid overriding it with the sourspot on his upper leg. Nair for sure can be a good kill move off-stage tho, especially because it's 6 frames faster than bair and less reliant on spacing, just mind your double jump cuz Wolf's up b has some sad vertical distance

 

[MERPIS]

How's he looking in terms of combo game ?

 

[JosePollo]

Aerials are too laggy (all FAF 41+) to reliably get aerial > aerial combos, so for the most part it's gonna rely on small two-hit combos off of falling nair/f-air/up air. SHAC f-air might have some follow-ups, similar to Sheik's SH f-air, but probably more tenuous due to a strict auto-cancel window.

Throws don't seem to serve for much else than positional advantage, though I can see down throw being capable of leading into Flash at some mid-to-high percents, but not with any real certainty. It'll be something that requires testing for sure.

The only grounded attack I can see having any real combo potential is up tilt due to being a vertical launcher, but FAF 36 doesn't really scream combo tool. Dtilt's angle and weak-to-moderate KB can serve to set up tech chases much like a Pika dtilt or Fox ftilt. Surprisingly, jab 3 is one of the moves I can see being a surprise lead into Flash due to the angle and low endlag (FAF 34) + the surprise factor of trying to combo off of a jab combo finisher lol

Addendum: dash attack also has decent follow-up potential. Up close it seems to launch vertically, and horizontally with the foot. It has less endlag than Fox's smash 4 dash attack (frame 4 hit, FAF 36 vs frame 11 hit, FAF 38; at least 5 less frames) so depending on your spacing it can set up into an up air, and even as much as Flash at higher percents with the late hit.

In terms of specials, shine has fairly low endlag (frame 6 hit, FAF 31) and an very combo-friendly angle. Even if you can't directly combo out of the hit (and you probably can on such low endlag) it still puts the opponent a very uncomfortable position above Wolf.

 

[MERPIS]

Aerials are too laggy (all FAF 41+) to reliably get aerial > aerial combos, so for the most part it's gonna rely on small two-hit combos off of falling nair/f-air/up air. SHAC f-air might have some follow-ups, similar to Sheik's SH f-air, but probably more tenuous due to a strict auto-cancel window.

Throws don't seem to serve for much else than positional advantage, though I can see down throw being capable of leading into Flash at some mid-to-high percents, but not with any real certainty. It'll be something that requires testing for sure.

The only grounded attack I can see having any real combo potential is up tilt due to being a vertical launcher, but FAF 36 doesn't really scream combo tool. Dtilt's angle and weak-to-moderate KB can serve to set up tech chases much like a Pika dtilt or Fox ftilt. Surprisingly, jab 3 is one of the moves I can see being a surprise lead into Flash due to the angle and low endlag (FAF 34) + the surprise factor of trying to combo off of a jab combo finisher lol

Addendum: dash attack also has decent follow-up potential. Up close it seems to launch vertically, and horizontally with the foot. It has less endlag than Fox's smash 4 dash attack (frame 4 hit, FAF 36 vs frame 11 hit, FAF 38; at least 5 less frames) so depending on your spacing it can set up into an up air, and even as much as Flash at higher percents with the late hit.

In terms of specials, shine has fairly low endlag (frame 6 hit, FAF 31) and an very combo-friendly angle. Even if you can't directly combo out of the hit (and you probably can on such low endlag) it still puts the opponent a very uncomfortable position above Wolf.

Damn I can't wait for shine combos again

 

[arzo.cl]

Wolf for sure has better killoptions than the hardread fsmash. Bair has still a lot of killpower and while dsmash maybe isnt equally safe, it's a great option if u get the opponent into a techsituation near the ledge, where dsmash could cover multiple options. Also ftilt which is a pretty safe move, has also decent killpower. Therefore I think it's better we can use nair to force techsituations.

forward tilt, up tilt, back throw, can kill now

 

[MERPIS]

forward tilt, up tilt, back throw, can kill now

wait do you have footage of bthrow killing

 

[arzo.cl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5dgTqCqAdc
3:55

it seems that the reflector throws the opponent up

 

[arzo.cl]

wait do you have footage of bthrow killing

I do not remember where exactly, I'm going to look

 

[MERPIS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5dgTqCqAdc
3:55

it seems that the reflector throws the opponent up

Definitely looks good for a combo opportunity, I'm kinda worried over the fact that MK actually jumped before wolf did anything though.

 

[arzo.cl]

Definitely looks good for a combo opportunity, I'm kinda worried over the fact that MK actually jumped before wolf did anything though.

I think exactly the same, but I think if wolf jumps 2 times it will be fast enough. I think if MK uses the airdoge, wolf can catch it. (sorry for English, I do not know if what I wrote is understood)

 

[IncomingGhost]

Throws don't seem to serve for much else than a positional advantage, though I can see down throw being capable of leading into Flash at some mid-to-high percents, but not with any real certainty. It'll be something that requires testing for sure.

Remember reading somewhere that bthrow can be a somewhat reliable kill-throw at ledge. What do we know on this?

 

[arzo.cl]

Remember reading somewhere that bthrow can be a somewhat reliable kill-throw at ledge. What do we know on this?

I can not find the clip where I saw it, but finding another where it almost killed. I can conclude that you can kill in percentages higher than 120%

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Backthrow kills at over 120% on FD ledge with no rage. So it is quite viable. Just tested on Chrom weight.

Random note, UpB can kill a lot earlier than this. 85%~ by the ledge.

 

[J0eyboi]

Aerials are too laggy (all FAF 41+) to reliably get aerial > aerial combos, so for the most part it's gonna rely on small two-hit combos off of falling nair/f-air/up air. SHAC f-air might have some follow-ups, similar to Sheik's SH f-air, but probably more tenuous due to a strict auto-cancel window.

I mean...

most of this can probably be avoided if you DI out but still

Backthrow kills at over 120% on FD ledge with no rage. So it is quite viable. Just tested on Chrom weight.

Random note, UpB can kill a lot earlier than this. 85%~ by the ledge.

Can you test if any of Wolf's throws have guaranteed followups?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I mean...

most of this can probably be avoided if you DI out but still



Can you test if any of Wolf's throws have guaranteed followups?

Downthrow into dash attack is the only one I could get. At early percents it leads into sweetspot dash attack which leads to further stuff. Later it only leads into late hit which doesn{t combo into anything.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I mean...

most of this can probably be avoided if you DI out but still



Can you test if any of Wolf's throws have guaranteed followups?

That crack in your switch physically pains me.