Will Vectoring Hurt Lucina?

[HdTyvek]

With the discovery of Vectoring as a way to survive longer and avoid getting combo'd, the massive talk of smash 4 is possibly moving toward a brawl like meta. disregarding this for now, how do you think proper vectoring will affect lucina players? will the ability to avoid already difficult combos make her weak? would like some thoughts from other players!

 

[Circa]

Did she have combos? I've not really seen any, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

I think it helps her. While I can't speak on whether or not the end result will be a more defensive playstyle, I can at least say it means she isn't going to be combo'd as much. It also means the characters who were likely to rely on killing via blastzone are worse off, and she just so happens to not be one of those characters (being better than Marth at it =/= being good at it).

Edgeguarding should be the preferred method, and we've already seen some solid evidence that she's good at that.

I don't know what this will mean in terms of the Marth vs Lucina debate. My hunch is that it puts Marth ahead, but you never know.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Does vectoring even help you off the sides or the abyss? Unless her only method of killing is off the ceiling I think she'll be fine.

 

[HdTyvek]

Does vectoring even help you off the sides or the abyss? Unless her only method of killing is off the ceiling I think she'll be fine.

not sure, that would be something to look into. alot of people are already saying this will make the game to defensive, interesting to see how it develops

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

not sure, that would be something to look into. alot of people are already saying this will make the game to defensive, interesting to see how it develops

I think that's just paranoia. If anything, huge offensive pushes prior to the 100% mark sound more likely to me. Kill them when it's easier to.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

not sure, that would be something to look into. alot of people are already saying this will make the game to defensive, interesting to see how it develops

A lot of people are also unnecessarily pessimistic and prone to sensationalism.

This probably helps Lucina moreso than it hurts her because she isn't the sort of character that relies on combos to rack up damage. The difference it will make to any one character will be small and manageable, in any case.

 

[LIQUID12A]

A lot of people are also unnecessarily pessimistic and prone to sensationalism.

Playus Speculus: A fighting game player who is unnecessarily pessimistic and prone to sensationalism when predicting what fighting game characters will appear on a roster.

Ok I'm done

I'm just a casual and don't know too much so I won't comment.

 

[Robertman2]

Playus Speculus: A fighting game player who is unnecessarily pessimistic and prone to sensationalism when predicting what fighting game characters will appear on a roster.

Ok I'm done

I'm just a casual and don't know too much so I won't comment.

You abuse the way too much.

 

[LIQUID12A]

You abuse the way too much.

But I like it.

not sure, that would be something to look into. alot of people are already saying this will make the game to defensive, interesting to see how it develops

A defensive metagame in a game based on mostly rushdown doesn't sound very plausible imho.

 

[HdTyvek]

But I like it.




A defensive metagame in a game based on mostly rushdown doesn't sound very plausible imho.

just seems to be alot of ways to play defense, while playing offense seems hard. (strong shields, spamable air dodges, vectoring combos) you get the idea. i hope it remains rush down, but just trying to stay on the outskirts right now

 

[InfinityCollision]

Sm4sh is hardly based on rushdown even now.

I see it helping her more than hurting her. If everyone struggles to combo then weaknesses in her combo game become less significant. Much like Marth, she plays the midrange poke/zoning game rather well. Rather than push for true combos, she can continuously pressure and set up disadvantageous situations for her opponent.

 

[Robertman2]

Sm4sh is hardly based on rushdown even now.

I see it helping her more than hurting her. If everyone struggles to combo then weaknesses in her combo game become less significant. Much like Marth, she plays the midrange poke/zoning game rather well. Rather than push for true combos, she can continuously pressure and set up disadvantageous situations for her opponent.

@ LIQUID12A This guy's avatar. It seems familiar.

 

[LIQUID12A]

@ LIQUID12A This guy's avatar. It seems familiar.

No, really. A certain man named Robert who liked the number 2 had it once.

Sm4sh is hardly based on rushdown even now.

I see it helping her more than hurting her. If everyone struggles to combo then weaknesses in her combo game become less significant. Much like Marth, she plays the midrange poke/zoning game rather well. Rather than push for true combos, she can continuously pressure and set up disadvantageous situations for her opponent.

Pressure leads to chip damage, which if landed constantly, would work better in the long term than combos.

Me like this argument.

 

[Robertman2]

No, really. A certain man named Robert who liked the number 2 had it once.



Pressure leads to chip damage, which if landed constantly, would work better in the long term than combos.

Me like this argument.

Let's devour his soul!

 

[Shaya]

Basic thoughts:

1. Swordsman aren't combo heavy this game.
2. Get out of combos better!
3. Swordsman are better in neutral, which will be more common
4. Swordsmen are better at frame trapping / option coverage, which will the primary way of following people up, rather than relying on combos.
5. kill power: sucks for her a little?

These are extremes though in some way, as I'm pretty sure the potency of vectoring is just not "enough" to really be noticeable on us getting out of combos in comparison to regular DI from before, I think vectoring has less impact than what DI/momentum cancelling was able to in Brawl too.

 

[Shaya]

Further testing actually shows that vectoring has significant impact on kill percent (at least on vertical moves, likely horizontal). So killing is really really really going to be focused on being able to capitalise off stage. Gimping prowess is going to make or break character viability.

 

[HdTyvek]

your posts are awesome! thanks for the thoughts shaya!

 

[InfinityCollision]

Good thing Marth and Lucina have strong gimp potential, though the new ledge mechanics and certain custom recoveries could make life more difficult.

I don't feel like making a new thread for this, but for anyone who hasn't already seen it knockback now scales with your own damage, starting at 40% and capping at 150%. I'm thinking this at least doesn't hurt us and could potentially be beneficial. Lucina and Marth have decent survivability - lightweight, but decent to great recovery distance (depending on loadout), mixups, and high mobility will give opponents some trouble when attempting to close out a stock. Lack of a strong combo game marginalizes losses in damage racking at low percent and positional advantages are potentially strengthened at higher percents because it's easier to force your opponent offstage.

 

[Circa]

I'll say after messing around with Pikachu in the demo, I'm with you on the rage system likely being beneficial for Marth and Lucina. While I can only assume they put it in the game as a sort of catch-up mechanic, it feels like it can be the total opposite of that with some characters. Just considering their great mobility and how being able to safely apply pressure on a lot of the cast...yeah. Scary.

Lucina should especially benefit. Her non-tipper property will/should allow her to deal with pressure better, as well as having a little more favorable of a time in potential rushdown situations.

I know the use of Pikachu doesn't make sense for the rest of that, but hear me out. I've noted that whenever I get to high percent as Pikachu and I manage to take my opponent's stock, the game just snowballs most of the time. I keep applying pressure with his fairly sick mix-up game, and it puts them in a place where all their kill moves are unlikely to ever land and everything else they do, due to Pikachu's great mobility, is probably just resetting the situation. It was stuff I noticed that would also apply to our favorite swords(wo)man, so I figured I'd share my thoughts.

 

[OptimistNic]

Did she have combos? I've not really seen any, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

I found this http://gfycat.com/EmotionalNeglectedAfricanfisheagle

 

[InfinityCollision]

Ehhhh... Judging her combos on that doesn't exactly demonstrate stellar combo potential. The Ganondorf player didn't react well throughout that clip and could have escaped several times with better VI or a timely airdodge.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Ehhhh... Judging her combos on that doesn't exactly demonstrate stellar combo potential. The Ganondorf player didn't react well throughout that clip and could have escaped several times with better VI or a timely airdodge.

To be fair, who reacts well when being comboed to death?

 

[InfinityCollision]

The people that live.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Touché.

But no, how do you react when you're being comboed and can't do anything

 

[InfinityCollision]

If he'd airdodged out of the DJ fair approximately one second in, he could've up-b'd to the ledge. I'm not 100% sure it would've made it before Lucina could hit him with up-b en route to the ledge, but it's plausible and the threat of a Dolphin Slash hit near the ledge is less severe because he could've teched the hit and resumed his recovery from a less dangerous position. Lucina couldn't afford to wait out the airdodge, she had to either attack immediately or recover. He also could've waited and gone for the ledge after the Dolphin Slash hit instead of immediately up-bing again, which put him in a defenseless position.

I could quibble with his actions at other points, but in my opinion those two reactions are the biggest "you dun goofed" moments in that clip. I believe that clip also predates the discovery of VI, so there's that to consider as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That was not a combo. I'm not going to explain why or what a combo is, but that wasn't it.

Been playing fighting games since I was seven years old. Trust me.

That was NOT a combo.

 

[Comet7]

yeah this'll help lucina since lol throw knockback and lack of combos. i also have to wonder if using mindgames to bait air dodge and punish with dair will be possible since air dodges aren't as great in this game.