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Wii U/Patch 1.0.4 Changes

D

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There hasn't been too much footage of Charizard in the Wii U version around, but I guess we can start looking for any changes Charizard may go under.

However, there may have already been a change, and not for the better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boUgqfX8uqM#t=211
Here at 3:37, you can see that Lucario's uncharged Aura Sphere causes Flare Blitz to explode, much like Yoshi's Eggs. I tried using uncharged Aura Spheres on CPU Charizard in training, and they just went though. Unless I'm missing something, it looks like Flare Blitz may not be usable for piercing through most projectiles. Hopefully perhaps it was just Aura Sphere that got changed, but it's still not good for us...

11/18/14 Edit: Only one known change so far; Dragon Rush's total damage has been nerfed to 11%, down from 15%.
 
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YeahVeryeah

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Not looking at video due to mobile. Was Lucario at high ℅? Was charizard? Let's not jump to conclusion
 

RiverDB

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Charizard was actually above 100(173), while lucario was at 13%, i actually tested it earlier with a friend at the exact same percentages, and was unable to recreate what happened in the video.
 

Davregis

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Nerf the bottom of the tier list, eh? I certainly hope we got some nice buffs to compensate, or non-Custom Charizard may be even less viable.
 

RadianB

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I don't think it's a nerf because that's happened to me before and against other characters as well as Lucario. Sometimes Flare Blitz just clashes with weak projectiles instead of going through them. I don't know why.
 

The Real Gamer

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Zard has always been able to pierce through an uncharged Aura Sphere... This is clearly a nerf.

Thank goodness Dragon Rush exists.

Also keep in mind there MIGHT still be other changes to offset this nerf so until the Wii U version is in our hands we'll just have to be patient and hope for the best but expect the worst.
 
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Davregis

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Lucario had the Aura Sphere charged slightly.

Watch at 3:50 http://youtu.be/boUgqfX8uqM?t=3m49s

Lucario throws an uncharged sphere and Charizard clearly tanks it BEFORE hitting Lucario. Nerf deconfirmed, guys!
 
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Masonomace

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Thank the mighty decency that Flare Blitz won't lose the Super Armor. That was about to be some serious lamefest if that was nerfed.

EDIT: Okay correction, I watched the link Sun Sol has in the OP & it clashing like that is kinda lame. I guess he doesn't have Super Armor for that long? Yet the moment within Daveregis's link shows Zard clearly tanking the BAS & still charges through.

I could only say that perhaps the SA duration is shorter, but I can't say for sure.
 
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D

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It's hard for me to tell, but it sort of looks like 'Zard is colliding with the AS, and Lucario is just getting caught in the AoE of Flare Blitz. Idk for sure though.
 

Big O

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It might have been a quirk with the way uncharged aura sphere zigzags that makes it clash with the attack instead of hitting zard.
 

Davregis

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It's hard for me to tell, but it sort of looks like 'Zard is colliding with the AS, and Lucario is just getting caught in the AoE of Flare Blitz. Idk for sure though.
There's hitstop when Zard encounters the Aura Sphere before the hitstop Lucario takes when Zard collides, so Lucario isn't just getting caught in the explosion. Zard can be seen to stop briefly, then continue through and strike Lucario.

This is odd, O_o
 
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MagiusNecros

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They nerfed Charizard? So now projectiles can stop him and make Charizard take the Flare Blitz damage? Why? Should I be concerned for Rock Smash?
 

The Real Gamer

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Are we positive the aura sphere was even out of his hands before Zard collided with Lucario's hitbox?

It's a pretty close call.

EDIT: NVM Zard goes from 182% to 195% after the Flare Blitz connects. Flare Blitz normally does 9% so the extra 4% clearly came from the Aura Sphere.
 
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Davregis

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Pausing the video allows you to see Aura Sphere fly from Lucario's hands and travel a short distance. In addition, Charizard suffers from momentary hitstun while in Flare Blitz before coming into contact with Lucario. Charizard tanks the blitz, then connects with Lucario and deals full damage.

The actual collision occurs at 3:51. Turn the video to 0.25 speed and it becomes more apparent exactly what's going on, but not why it's happening O_o
 
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-LzR-

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Come on our sideB was clearly too broken! It was so fast it had like 30 frames startup and it did only 9% self damage and could kill as early as 140% fresh near the ledges! This is only for the best.
 

Virum

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Come on our sideB was clearly too broken! It was so fast it had like 30 frames startup and it did only 9% self damage and could kill as early as 140% fresh near the ledges! This is only for the best.
The last point is a huge exaggeration. It kills at least 40% earlier than that fresh and near the ledge against pretty much the entire cast barring the heaviest characters (in training it kills Bowser at around 110% and that excludes freshness bonus).

That said though, if this nerf is what it seems to be I agree that it's totally unwarrented especially on a character who struggles enough as it is.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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I just tested Flare Blitz against Lucario's Aura Sphere on the 3DS version.
It goes through it at times, like on the first half of the move. At other times the sphere stops Charizard if it's traveled a little further.
So yeah, sometimes it goes through the sphere, sometimes not. Perhaps nothing has been changed and I think that we may be rushing into this.
I was only able to test this by myself against the (stupid) AI. If someone can do more testing and report back it would be appreciated.
 

Masonomace

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I'm fairly sure that LzR's post was sarcasm Silent. The words "so fast it was like 30 frames of start-up" just doesn't sound right because that's not impressive start-up for "fast".

Back to this topic, I'm gonna kick back & wait 3 days because I won't rush into assumptions for Flare Blitz.
 
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Whookie

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Even in the version we have now, I've often noticed that Charizard can get knocked out of Flare Blitz by certain projectiles that it can usually armor through and it always happens after half the travel distance. I always just assumed that the super armor is only active 60-70% of the way after he starts flying. Basically I think it goes like this

1. Start-up where you have no super armor
2. The first 60-70% of the flight, you have super armor
3. 60%-95% OR 70-95% you have no super armor
4. 2% of the flight you only deal some pathetic 4% fire damage and pass through the enemy without falling down (there's a certain point where you just seem to pass through the enemy near the end of the flight)
5. The last 3% is Charizard finishing his flight so he doesn't damage the enemy and just passes through them

Looking at the video, I'm not sure about the distance because I'm used to the 3DS maps but I think that's about half of Flare Blitz's usual travel distance which is the point you can get knocked out of Flare Blitz. Later on, we see the super armor active when it collided with the aura sphere when it was definitely within 50% of Charizard's travel distance. Of course I can be wrong about the distance and they lowered the time you have super armor too which sucks.

 

Masonomace

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Even in the version we have now, I've often noticed that Charizard can get knocked out of Flare Blitz by certain projectiles that it can usually armor through and it always happens after half the travel distance. I always just assumed that the super armor is only active 60-70% of the way after he starts flying. Basically I think it goes like this

1. Start-up where you have no super armor
2. The first 60-70% of the flight, you have super armor
3. 60%-95% OR 70-95% you have no super armor
4. 2% of the flight you only deal some pathetic 4% fire damage and pass through the enemy without falling down (there's a certain point where you just seem to pass through the enemy near the end of the flight)
5. The last 3% is Charizard finishing his flight so he doesn't damage the enemy and just passes through them

Looking at the video, I'm not sure about the distance because I'm used to the 3DS maps but I think that's about half of Flare Blitz's usual travel distance which is the point you can get knocked out of Flare Blitz. Later on, we see the super armor active when it collided with the aura sphere when it was definitely within 50% of Charizard's travel distance. Of course I can be wrong about the distance and they lowered the time you have super armor too which sucks.

What other projectiles are we talking, because Flare Blitz on contact deals roughly 19-ish%, & yet it gets stopped by a 4% Aura Sphere. That's just not right. In a decent set mind, Flare Blitz I would think could easily outprioritize a measly Baby Aura Sphere from a Lucario who has little to no Aura atm. That's just depressing.
 
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Whookie

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What other projectiles are we talking, because Flare Blitz on contact deals roughly 19-ish%, & yet it gets stopped by a 4% Aura Sphere. That's just not right. In a decent set mind, Flare Blitz I would think could easily outprioritize a measly Baby Aura Sphere from a Lucario who has little to no Aura atm. That's just depressing.
For me, Flare Blitz has always been stopped by projectiles after a certain travel distance and I always play while taking into consideration how far I am and will super armor be active. I think it was Samus' uncharged shot that brought it to my attention. It was such a small shot so I was surprised that it managed to stop my blitz when I assumed I'd armor through it. I was really far from Samus when it happened so I figured it was distance related.

One of the best things I like is armoring through Greninja's charged water shuriken. I'll stand a certain distance just within the super armor area and if they charge the Shuriken even a little bit instead of an instant release, I'll flare blitz and go through it.
 

-LzR-

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From my experience almost anything Lucario throws at us can interrupt sideB and even downB with ease. I have been unable to figure out how this happens, but Lucario just doesn't care about super armor.
If anything I think sideB should get a buff. It's good and everything but for a move that gives yourself 9% the move should be crazy good instead.
 

Nysyr

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You need to do more 10% more damage to out-prioritize stuff. If the projectile does 10% flare blitz shouldn't beat it without the super armour.
 
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Virum

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I'm fairly sure that LzR's post was sarcasm Silent. The words "so fast it was like 30 frames of start-up" just doesn't sound right because that's not impressive start-up for "fast".

Back to this topic, I'm gonna kick back & wait 3 days because I won't rush into assumptions for Flare Blitz.
I detected the sarcasm from a mile away. " Kills at 140 fresh near ledges" is wrong regardless.
 

-LzR-

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I detected the sarcasm from a mile away. " Kills at 140 fresh near ledges" is wrong regardless.
Sorry about the post. I was just stating how I am slightly disappointed at the move. It didn't really have anything to do with the topic.
 

Masonomace

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I detected the sarcasm from a mile away. " Kills at 140 fresh near ledges" is wrong regardless.
Don't you mean you detected the sarcasm from a Flare Blitz away?:awesome:
Sorry about the post. I was just stating how I am slightly disappointed at the move. It didn't really have anything to do with the topic.
I feel for you, Zard's Flare Blitz honestly should be powering through any tiny projectile at any time during FB's lunge of flight, except for the Flare Blitz's start-up maybe.
 
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-LzR-

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And it should be really damn strong too or do more damage. Yes, Zard is heavy, but using a move that does 9% self damage for 19% damage and not too much advantage because you land on the floor after doing it and while being an incredible risky move to use. I feel the risk/reward for the move is too much and as the meta develops it ends up being just a situational killmove.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Flare Blitz killed Denti at 39% as Sheik getting hit while handing on the ledge by Zard. I'm pretty sure it kills earlier than 140%.

That said I'm checking 1.0.4 right now for changes.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Charizard:

Jab: 3%, 4%, 5%, 12% total damage.

Dtilt: 10%

Ftilt: 7% sour, 10% sweet spot

Utilt: 8%

Fsmash : 14% uncharged, 23% charged.

Dsmash: 16%, 23% charged.

Usmash: 5%, 11% 16% total, 7% 15% 22% total charged.

Nair: 7%

fair: 12%

Bair: 13%

Uair: 13%

Flame Thrower: 2% at first then 1% each hit after.

Flare Blitz: 19%, 9 % recoil.

Fly: don’t ask me, it’s hard to nail this down, I know at max it does 17% and on average I can get 12%.

Rock Smash: grounded does 20-23%? SH does 29% if all the hits hit.

Pummel: 2%

Upthrow 8%

Dthrow: 6%

Fthrow: 10%

Bthrow: 10%


I have not tested knockback yet but I think all his damage is the same as before. I'll check if I see anything noticable for knockback.

Edit:
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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So killing Mario no VI center of FD training mode, I know it;s not the same as normal smash mode but I'm doing it for the sake of consistency.

Flare Blitz: 118%
Rock Smash : 139%
Fly: 121%
Dthrow: 185%
Dsmash: 125%
Fsmash: 114%
USmash: 111%
Fair: 187%
Uair: about 106% (I tried to do this one off just a SH)
Bair: 129%

Sorry guys but it looks like from my PoV he is pretty much the same as before in terms of damage and KOing, if hitboxes changed I didn't see anything that stuck out.

So pretty much just the Sheik/Rosalina/Greninja/other character nerfs, or buffs, are what we would be looking at for changes in what we do, not at out character.

Zard didn't get changed himself, though that is ok imo, the things we will be looking at is how it affects his MU from the nerfs and potential buffs other characters got.

If you think hotboxes were changed let me know.

though I secretly learned his Uair is his best kill move, didn't know that in terms of raw knockback lol. Or that Usmash killed better than the rest of his kill moves O_O.
 
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YeahVeryeah

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Damn, I was really hoping for an auto cancel on an aerial or two
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Oh yeah speed, can't tell off any data either.

If you think was, again let me know but off damage and knockback, nothing has changed.

Damn, I was really hoping for an auto cancel on an aerial or two
Nair still does, you need to fullhop it.
 
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YeahVeryeah

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Nair still does, you need to fullhop it.
I mean I was greedy for a fair that auto canceled at all points. And what mean Nair auto canceled on full hop? Wasnt it lagless when done off of rising short hop?
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I mean I was greedy for a fair that auto canceled at all points. And what mean Nair auto canceled on full hop? Wasnt it lagless when done off of rising short hop?
Kind of.

All I can say is it Zard does the bump animation for extra lag, you did it wrong. If he does the move and you can immediately jab you did it right.

Going to bed, I see if anything pops up as different tomorrow with Zard and some other characters.
 

-LzR-

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So killing Mario no VI center of FD training mode, I know it;s not the same as normal smash mode but I'm doing it for the sake of consistency.

Flare Blitz: 118%
Rock Smash : 139%
Fly: 121%
Dthrow: 185%
Dsmash: 125%
Fsmash: 114%
USmash: 111%
Fair: 187%
Uair: about 106% (I tried to do this one off just a SH)
Bair: 129%
I have a hard time believing those numbers. Perhaps I accidentally stale everything or VI just makes things so much harder to kill, but good to have a list like that. I had no idea how powerful Usmash is. Does FD have a really low ceiling or what? I can't believe those vertical kill %.
 
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