Wii U Omega Stage Differences

[The_Jiggernaut]

The thing is Lylat Cruise is literally the only stage in the game where any of this matters and if you're banning Lylat you're likely doing it for the edges and the tilting, 50% of which applies to the Omega stage as well. If you ban Lylat and I take you to Omega Lylat you're likely to be annoyed, so my mini suggestion would require me to take you to literally any other Omega/FD in the game which works because the main point of the FDesque stages is the layout and lack of platforms, rather than the edges.

I don't know. I find the notion that banning a stage should ban its omega, as well as the proposed South Carolina stage pick, kinda flawed.

The idea of banning Lylat and Omega Lylat together because they have similar pitfalls is equivalent to the idea that banning Delfino Plaza should also automatically ban Skyloft and Wuhu Island, since they are all in a similar vain and characters with weaknesses on one would be likely to have weaknesses on the other. Or that banning Battlefield should also ban Smashville because they're both neutral stages with low platforms.

Standard stages and their Omega versions are, in fact, different stages. The similarities between the struggles a character might face on both Lylat and Lylat Omega are pure happenstance. Having a general rule that banning a stage also bans its Omega makes no sense, since there's only one stage where this similarity even exists. For example Pokemon Stadium 2 is disruptive and annoying but it's Omega Form is literally Final Destination. Besides, Infzy stating that he might like Omega Lylat and not Standard Lylat is a counter-example to the claim that the two forms are functionally similar enough for them to count as the same ban.


Only having Omega versions of the legal stages be legal seems completely arbitrary to me. None of the Omega Stages are disruptive enough to be considered ban-worthy, so there should be no problem with people picking any one they want. Cornstalk has shown there are 8 distinct types of Omega stages and restricting the omega stage list in this way cuts off some of them for no particular reason.

The stage list also makes it more restrictive for a player to ban FD than any other stage. Having "Omega Stages" as a counterpick means players will have to ban it as well as FD itself in order to not get taken there (Omega PS2 and Omega Battlefield are basically FD). I don't see it as fair for players to need to sink both their bans to not go to a flat stage.



Banning FD automatically also banning all Omega stages should stay for now. At least until we figure out how to treat the different Omega variants. If you don't want to go to Lylat OR Omega Lylat, you can ban Lylat and FD. Note that you can always choose to go to a stage you have previously banned, so it doesn't stop you from going to FD or Omega stages you like.

 

[Pazx]

I don't know. I find the notion that banning a stage should ban its omega, as well as the proposed South Carolina stage pick, kinda flawed.

The idea of banning Lylat and Omega Lylat together because they have similar pitfalls is equivalent to the idea that banning Delfino Plaza should also automatically ban Skyloft and Wuhu Island, since they are all in a similar vain and characters with weaknesses on one would be likely to have weaknesses on the other. Or that banning Battlefield should also ban Smashville because they're both neutral stages with low platforms.

Standard stages and their Omega versions are, in fact, different stages. The similarities between the struggles a character might face on both Lylat and Lylat Omega are pure happenstance. Having a general rule that banning a stage also bans its Omega makes no sense, since there's only one stage where this similarity even exists. For example Pokemon Stadium 2 is disruptive and annoying but it's Omega Form is literally Final Destination. Besides, Infzy stating that he might like Omega Lylat and not Standard Lylat is a counter-example to the claim that the two forms are functionally similar enough for them to count as the same ban.


Only having Omega versions of the legal stages be legal seems completely arbitrary to me. None of the Omega Stages are disruptive enough to be considered ban-worthy, so there should be no problem with people picking any one they want. Cornstalk has shown there are 8 distinct types of Omega stages and restricting the omega stage list in this way cuts off some of them for no particular reason.

The stage list also makes it more restrictive for a player to ban FD than any other stage. Having "Omega Stages" as a counterpick means players will have to ban it as well as FD itself in order to not get taken there (Omega PS2 and Omega Battlefield are basically FD). I don't see it as fair for players to need to sink both their bans to not go to a flat stage.

Banning FD automatically also banning all Omega stages should stay for now. At least until we figure out how to treat the different Omega variants. If you don't want to go to Lylat OR Omega Lylat, you can ban Lylat and FD. Note that you can always choose to go to a stage you have previously banned, so it doesn't stop you from going to FD or Omega stages you like.

I don't and never have disagreed with the statements that a) all Omega stages should be legal and b) banning FD should count as banning all Omega stages. My suggestion was just that, a suggestion, and not one I think is completely necessary, however if it is adopted it doesn't reduce the stage list at all as you still have 45ish near identical stages to choose from if you pick FD. It would almost never come into practice and thus it doesn't actually negatively affect the game or the stage selection process in any way. I prefer my suggestion to outright banning Omega Lylat (which some people are calling for) and I really don't like the idea of banning Lylat and getting taken to the Omega version.

Also, PS2 is a good stage, and PS2 Omega can't be scrooged because of the pillar, slight differences.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I don't and never have disagreed with the statements that a) all Omega stages should be legal and b) banning FD should count as banning all Omega stages. My suggestion was just that, a suggestion, and not one I think is completely necessary, however if it is adopted it doesn't reduce the stage list at all as you still have 45ish near identical stages to choose from if you pick FD. It would almost never come into practice and thus it doesn't actually negatively affect the game or the stage selection process in any way. I prefer my suggestion to outright banning Omega Lylat (which some people are calling for) and I really don't like the idea of banning Lylat and getting taken to the Omega version.

Also, PS2 is a good stage, and PS2 Omega can't be scrooged because of the pillar, slight differences.

I didn't mean to say that you claimed certain Omega stages should be banned and that banning FD shouldn't ban all omega stages. I was pulling double duty with my post and also responding to Xanfire's post regarding the proposed stage set for South Carolina. My apologies for being unclear.


I understand that you were making a suggestion. I don't see why that means I can't voice my opinion on the suggestion, however.

My problem with your suggestion is that we would be adding another line in our rulesets for a situation that, in your own words, "Would almost never come into practice". It adds another layer to each ban that honestly doesn't need to be there. You, in fact, agree that it would do nothing to change the ban phase unless Lylat was involved.

I strongly feel that adding a general rule that over-complicates the ban phase for a fringe case is not a good thing to do. Especially when the claim that Lylat and it's Omega form are functionally identical is not universally agreed on. If you have a pet peeve of banning Lylat and then someone taking you to Omega Lylat, simply ban Lylat and FD. The rules allow you to avoid this situation.



Also, anyone who is suggesting to outright ban an Omega stage is really confusing me. I certainly don't agree with that approach. It's a stage that's less disruptive than Lylat (which is considered a neutral) with the same edge. For that not to be at least a counterpick is a complete mistake.

 

[Linkshot]

Has it been mentioned that Duck Hunt and Flat Zone X need to be tagged as "Flat" also? Flattening models removes the deadzone (or "Royzone" if you want) on attacks that sweep from the foreground/background to the stage (e.g.: Greninja fSmash). Reference

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Has it been mentioned that Duck Hunt and Flat Zone X need to be tagged as "Flat" also? Flattening models removes the deadzone (or "Royzone" if you want) on attacks that sweep from the foreground/background to the stage (e.g.: Greninja fSmash). Reference

PAC-LAND too!

 

[Linkshot]

So, trying to pick this apart and separate the stages as much as possible. Grass and Flat make a stage have to stand on its own. Pillars under the stage and their behavior do too. So, stages that are their own category now:

• Duck Hunt (Flat Straight)
• Mushroom Kingdom U (Grassy Overhang)
• Mario Galaxy (Grass Rude)
• PAC-LAND (Flat Rude)
• Kalos League (Only Rude)
• Pokemon Stadium 2 (Kind Pillar FD)
• Flat Zone X (Flat FD)
• Gaur Plains (Rude Pillar FD)
• Great Cave Offensive (Left-Grassy Fat Lip)
• Lylat Cruise (The Rude Jerk)

Yoshi's Island and Windy Hill Zone now occupy the new category "Grassy Straight".

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I've heard talk at my Local Smash events that there's a movement to ban Flat stages (ie, stages that make characters flat like game-and-watch, not flat stages like FD), especially duck hunt, because it messes with certain dodging moves for characters, due to characters having no z-axis.

Can anyone confirm or deny either this property or that these discussions are going on?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I've heard talk at my Local Smash events that there's a movement to ban Flat stages (ie, stages that make characters flat like game-and-watch, not flat stages like FD), especially duck hunt, because it messes with certain dodging moves for characters, due to characters having no z-axis.

Can anyone confirm or deny either this property or that these discussions are going on?

These properties are real, but shouldn't justify a ban. Counterpick, maybe, but not banned.

 

[Pazx]

I've heard talk at my Local Smash events that there's a movement to ban Flat stages (ie, stages that make characters flat like game-and-watch, not flat stages like FD), especially duck hunt, because it messes with certain dodging moves for characters, due to characters having no z-axis.

Can anyone confirm or deny either this property or that these discussions are going on?

It actually helps some characters like Greninja as it makes their moves (fsmash) easier to land. Counterpick.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

These properties are real, but shouldn't justify a ban. Counterpick, maybe, but not banned.

Would you be able to elaborate on the properties or point me to the suitable thread? Like, does it effect the length of spot dodges? Does it change more than just Yoshi's taunt that happens to dodge things?

It actually helps some characters like Greninja as it makes their moves (fsmash) easier to land. Counterpick.

Yeah, and in doing so it employs better bug fixes than Nintendo in his regard. I've heard Greninja's Fsmash quoted a lot, but are there other moves of his that it changes? Are there any other characters that get better in a similar way? Is this the type of thing that would make Duck Hunt dog's Fsmash not save opponents from itself, or is this unrelated?



I think there just comes a point where a stage can simply change the game you're playing. I think it's important for us to put in the work to examine what exactly gets changed on 2-D stages. If we see that we're just talking about some Greninja buffs and Yoshi losing an already non-viable dodge option, then Duckhunt and the Flat Omega stages shouldn't be excluded. (I personally don't think duck hunt should be a legal stage to begin with, but that's simply opinion and a different conversation all together)

But instead, if we find that a chunk of the cast has subtle but meaningful changes due to flatness or that dodging is different, I would push for it to be banned. At this point, we're playing some other game. I'd like to also point out that memorizing a list of changes that happens on some stages might be easy for those of us with experience and a solid grasp on the game, but it significantly increases the gap for those trying to get into the game. And that can be an aspect of making rules we sometimes forget.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Would you be able to elaborate on the properties or point me to the suitable thread? Like, does it effect the length of spot dodges? Does it change more than just Yoshi's taunt that happens to dodge things?




Yeah, and in doing so it employs better bug fixes than Nintendo in his regard. I've heard Greninja's Fsmash quoted a lot, but are there other moves of his that it changes? Are there any other characters that get better in a similar way? Is this the type of thing that would make Duck Hunt dog's Fsmash not save opponents from itself, or is this unrelated?


I think there just comes a point where a stage can simply change the game you're playing. I think it's important for us to put in the work to examine what exactly gets changed on 2-D stages. If we see that we're just talking about some Greninja buffs and Yoshi losing an already non-viable dodge option, then Duckhunt and the Flat Omega stages shouldn't be excluded. (I personally don't think duck hunt should be a legal stage to begin with, but that's simply opinion and a different conversation all together)

But instead, if we find that a chunk of the cast has subtle but meaningful changes due to flatness or that dodging is different, I would push for it to be banned. At this point, we're playing some other game. I'd like to also point out that memorizing a list of changes that happens on some stages might be easy for those of us with experience and a solid grasp on the game, but it significantly increases the gap for those trying to get into the game. And that can be an aspect of making rules we sometimes forget.

We'd need some serious testing, but my holiday break ends today and my schedule barely gives me any free time.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

We'd need some serious testing, but my holiday break ends today and my schedule barely gives me any free time.

That's understandable. I personally... don't even own the Wii U version. So my abilities to test are limited as well (though having the 3DS version helps a bit). I think a big first step would be to locate the original claims that Flatness effects certain moves. There's likely a lot of work already done there.

But yeah, for those of you who have the time and resources, I think it's important for the community to figure out what changes (if any) Flatness creates, even if it's just knowing if your character is better or worse on those stages.

If someone is willing to head this up and create a testing thread, post the link here so we can move that discussion there. I'm willing to offer my full support for this project, whatever that would entail. I don't feel comfortable heading up this one, since I still can't read frame and hitbox data on my own.

 

[Linkshot]

Bottom blastzones might be split into 32ft and 29ft categories according to this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2tm1vs/all_omegas_are_not_created_equal_more_stage/

 

[webbedspace]

Is Ω Great Cave Offensive really a floater? It looks sorta like this extends to the blast line.

Bottom blastzones might be split into 32ft and 29ft categories according to this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2tm1vs/all_omegas_are_not_created_equal_more_stage/

See also http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...egas_are_not_created_equal_more_stage/co0fd9d

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

It doesn't extend to the blastline. I tested this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

While we're on the subject, I had a minor panic attack when someone on Reddit posted that Mario Galaxy Omega has walls down to the blast line since I have a clear memory of a hemisphere shape for it. Turns out that it does float like I thought, but the thing is so big that the bottom is completely out of camera range. I needed to use Jigglypuff in order to get underneath, and even then she couldn't make it to the opposite ledge. (Peach can probably pull a similar failed attempt due to float. Villager can likely make the whole thing work.)

 

[Linkshot]

Ah, sorry about that, then!

My main worry right now is how we're going to treat their positions in the stage lists if they all have some sort of variance to them that presents matchup differences, without flat out banning them all or lumping them together. The latter posed some pretty major problems, as many people at a recent biweekly would ban Lylat due to the ledges, so Jiggernaut and I would just take them to Omega Lylat, effectively forcing them to ban FD alongside it. It was mentioned that maybe banning a stage would ban its Omega alongside it (while FD still blankets them all anyway), but Lylat seems to be the only one where the reason to ban that stage is also the reason to ban the Omega, PLUS there are the Omegas that are attached to an already banned stage to think about.

Is it really reasonable to just learn all the quirks and force people to agree on an Omega when FD is selected (whether through Striking or Counterpicking)? Managing that many bans, in the case of disagreement, seems unreasonable. I'm always willing to make people learn the game, though.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Diddy, Pit, Dark Pit, Kirby (after copying Shulk), Meta-Knight, Lucario (max aura), Villager, and Olimar can make it under Mario Galaxy and GCO. Pikachu and Sonic can make it under GCO with wall jumps.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Ah, sorry about that, then!

My main worry right now is how we're going to treat their positions in the stage lists if they all have some sort of variance to them that presents matchup differences, without flat out banning them all or lumping them together. The latter posed some pretty major problems, as many people at a recent biweekly would ban Lylat due to the ledges, so Jiggernaut and I would just take them to Omega Lylat, effectively forcing them to ban FD alongside it. It was mentioned that maybe banning a stage would ban its Omega alongside it (while FD still blankets them all anyway), but Lylat seems to be the only one where the reason to ban that stage is also the reason to ban the Omega, PLUS there are the Omegas that are attached to an already banned stage to think about.

Is it really reasonable to just learn all the quirks and force people to agree on an Omega when FD is selected (whether through Striking or Counterpicking)? Managing that many bans, in the case of disagreement, seems unreasonable. I'm always willing to make people learn the game, though.

It's becoming increasingly clear that there are in fact differences between Omegas, and we can't even agree on which ones are big enough to be worth worrying about. So yeah, I can basically guarantee that most of the proposed Omega rules I've seen will result in a giant messy debate, then messy rules, and then messy errata to the rules as further research comes to light. And for what purpose? Finding an FD clone that does FD better than FD?

I'm not even slightly interested in having to keep track of 40+ separate Omega forms and any minute differences between them, especially since anyone who wants to play on FD/Omega is almost certainly doing so for the flat surface, not any understage trimmings or weird blast zone inconsistencies. The KISS principle seems relevant here.

For my part, I think one of the better solutions is this:

• Game 1: Omega stages are banned. If stage striking results in playing on FD, then players play on FD. Not an Omega, not FD Omega, just FD.
• Game 2+: If a player wishes to counterpick FD, they may substitute any Omega stage at their discretion. This counts as FD for the purposes of DSR, stage bans, and similar rules.

 

[webbedspace]

Proposal:

Game 1: if after striking etc. FD is chosen, each player may, once, offer their opponent an omega stage as substitute. If the opponent accepts, then it is used. Otherwise (if neither player's offer is accepted or made) FD is used.

I prefer this because it means players may pick an omega that advantages both characters (e.g. both Ness and Diddy would benefit from Ω Onett).

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Ah, sorry about that, then!

My main worry right now is how we're going to treat their positions in the stage lists if they all have some sort of variance to them that presents matchup differences, without flat out banning them all or lumping them together. The latter posed some pretty major problems, as many people at a recent biweekly would ban Lylat due to the ledges, so Jiggernaut and I would just take them to Omega Lylat, effectively forcing them to ban FD alongside it. It was mentioned that maybe banning a stage would ban its Omega alongside it (while FD still blankets them all anyway), but Lylat seems to be the only one where the reason to ban that stage is also the reason to ban the Omega, PLUS there are the Omegas that are attached to an already banned stage to think about.

Yeah, I pretty much constantly took players who banned Lylat to Omega Lylat at the biweekly. It worked for me, however I'm really starting to see what Pazx was saying about it being kind of a piss off. It felt pretty dirty to do so, and it seems like a little too much pressure to force both bans to cover the one weakness.

I'm really not satisfied with the current Picks and Bans phase for this and other reasons. But it feels clumsy to have a stage ban also ban its omega to cover this one outlier. On top of Omega Lylat being a completely unique stage, there's no direct pick in our current setup for straight-walled stages like Omega Onett, which has a distinct set of strengths and weaknesses over FD.

I strongly feel that it's important to have the stage list present a player's complete options, and so I will propose the following:

• Choose 3-4 Omega stages that represent the meaningful choices from the entire omega stage list and add them to the Counterpick list
• Put all other Omega stages on the Ban List
• Remove the rule that banning FD bans all Omega stages
• Increase the number of Bans from 2 to 3
• Keep the rule that players can go to any stage so long as they agree (this allows switching to equivalent stages)

This is not without its flaws, but I think this is the type of model we should be shooting for. Currently, the model of grouping all omega forms together with FD is decent, but it is largely an oversimplification. Lumping them all together doesn't properly express the different stage options, and more than anything that skyrockets the learning curve of the game. The stage list should reflect the viable choices plainly and on its surface. Each new player shouldn't have to repeat the research done by @ Cornstalk in order to figure this out. Their options should be printed plainly and completely on the stage list.

Even experienced players shouldn't be expected to memorize the details of every single Omega stage. When an opponent counterpicks FD and wants to go to Omega Kalos, do we really expect a player to remember if floats or has walls? If it does have walls, can you wall jump off of them? There's real value into consolidating the Omega list into 3 or 4 stages.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

It really isn't that difficult to remember what each Omega stage has. Maybe we could introduce an omega ban where if you don't ban FD you can ban a certain group of omega stages.

 

[webbedspace]

Even experienced players shouldn't be expected to memorize the details of every single Omega stage.

Why not? It's usually pretty obvious based on the stage's normal layout what its omega form resembles (every walled omega is also "walled" in its regular form, in that you can't fly under the stage; every touring stage's omega is a thin platform) and the fine details of its shape can be gleaned by just plain experience and memorisation.

 

[Pazx]

Yeah, I pretty much constantly took players who banned Lylat to Omega Lylat at the biweekly. It worked for me, however I'm really starting to see what Pazx was saying about it being kind of a piss off. It felt pretty dirty to do so, and it seems like a little too much pressure to force both bans to cover the one weakness.

I'm really not satisfied with the current Picks and Bans phase for this and other reasons. But it feels clumsy to have a stage ban also ban its omega to cover this one outlier. On top of Omega Lylat being a completely unique stage, there's no direct pick in our current setup for straight-walled stages like Omega Onett, which has a distinct set of strengths and weaknesses over FD.

I strongly feel that it's important to have the stage list present a player's complete options, and so I will propose the following:

• Choose 3-4 Omega stages that represent the meaningful choices from the entire omega stage list and add them to the Counterpick list
• Put all other Omega stages on the Ban List
• Remove the rule that banning FD bans all Omega stages
• Increase the number of Bans from 2 to 3
• Keep the rule that players can go to any stage so long as they agree (this allows switching to equivalent stages)

This is not without its flaws, but I think this is the type of model we should be shooting for. Currently, the model of grouping all omega forms together with FD is decent, but it is largely an oversimplification. Lumping them all together doesn't properly express the different stage options, and more than anything that skyrockets the learning curve of the game. The stage list should reflect the viable choices plainly and on its surface. Each new player shouldn't have to repeat the research done by @ Cornstalk in order to figure this out. Their options should be printed plainly and completely on the stage list.

Even experienced players shouldn't be expected to memorize the details of every single Omega stage. When an opponent counterpicks FD and wants to go to Omega Kalos, do we really expect a player to remember if floats or has walls? If it does have walls, can you wall jump off of them? There's real value into consolidating the Omega list into 3 or 4 stages.

One significant problem with getting rid of the FD = Omega rule is that if I like flat stages and I win game 1 i have 3 bans to use on stages with platforms, while if you dislike FD you have to use all 3 bans on omegas (and with your suggestion you STILL go to a flat stage). Doesn't seem right.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

It really isn't that difficult to remember what each Omega stage has. Maybe we could introduce an omega ban where if you don't ban FD you can ban a certain group of omega stages.

For this extra Omega ban, what would that look like? I'm sort of unsure how that would look on a written/typed stage list. Would you be able to give an example?

Why not? It's usually pretty obvious based on the stage's normal layout what its omega form resembles (every walled omega is also "walled" in its regular form, in that you can't fly under the stage; every touring stage's omega is a thin platform) and the fine details of its shape can be gleaned by just plain experience and memorization.

Just because you've found a mimetic to more easily remember the differences doesn't mean it's something we should be expecting of everyone. There are even counter-examples to what you're saying too. Pac-land is more or less a touring stage without walls but it's Omega has walls, and you'd have to straight up know you can't wall jump off of those. Wii-fit Studio and Eldin are both walk offs and one Omega has a wall, one has a lip.

I understand that it's possible to learn the differences by experience and memorization, but that's kind of the problem. A player shouldn't need those things in order to be on equal footing if they have the same skill as someone who just happened to have played more For Glory online. As you might be able to tell, I'm approaching this from a sort of Competitive Game Design angle, as I feel it's important to have skill be the deciding factor, not simply the amount of time spent playing the game. (If someone is not familiar with this notion, feel free to ask and I'll explain it further)

One significant problem with getting rid of the FD = Omega rule is that if I like flat stages and I win game 1 i have 3 bans to use on stages with platforms, while if you dislike FD you have to use all 3 bans on omegas (and with your suggestion you STILL go to a flat stage). Doesn't seem right.

I do agree that this is one of the problems my suggestion has. What if we kept it at 2 bans, added in 3 omega stages, and took out some of the existing problem stages in order to keep the numbers down in order to have 2 bans be sufficient

For an example, let's

• Remove Duck Hunt, add Omega Onett (straight walls)
• Remove Skyloft, add Omega Lylat (the jerk)
• Remove PS2, add Omega Kalos (walls, no walljumps)

It's not a complete list of options, but whatever. Another con of my suggestion is that we'd all have to agree on what counts as a significant stage option.

I'm still on the warpath for banning Duck Hunt, as the Flattening stages DO change the spot dodge and air dodge lengths of certain characters arbitrarily based on what their animations happen to look like. This is getting into the realm of insanity and I don't believe "Dedede has worse dodges here" is in the spirit of counterpicking as we know it now.

Skyloft has a giant hitbox on the left side between two transformations that you'd just have to memorize. Seems like a crappy way to die to me.

No one likes PS2 ANYWAYS, I'd like to know what is thought about this example, as it needs to be refined either way. If someone wants to go to a flat stage, they have many options, but the flatness of a stage isn't the only thing in these new stages. Can someone name me a character that is good on both FD and Omega Lylat? If there isn't one, it's not actually as much choice as it seems.



Second Suggestion:

What if we replaced Lylat Cruise with Lylat Omega, replaced Duck Hunt with Omega Onett and called it a day?

 

[Linkshot]

I think Lylat should just be the "recovery killer" stage, no Omega involved. Little Mac is probably equally good on both of them (loves flat-no-plat, recovery is too garbage to get Lylat'd anyway). We can use Omega Port Town for our flat floater. Palu's is still identical to FD in every mechanical way, right? So, my proposal, as an edit to Jiggernaut's:

• Omega Onett as our Walljumper. People love that series and music, and it has a pretty clean and crisp background.
• Omega Port Town as our Sharker. Largest music selection, pretty straightforward ledge shapes.
• Omega Kalos as our Anti-Wallride. One of the best song lists and more beautiful designs.
• Omega Palutena instead of FD, period. FD's background completely alters the lighting and colours briefly, and even looks asymmetrical under the stage. Palu's background is static and the lighting is practically perfect, with a perfectly symmetrical stage design.

Two bans, and you can just straight ban Omega if flat-no-plat is your fear.

 

[Pazx]

Banning more interesting stages in favour of Omegas? Sounds like a bad plan to me. I'd be happy for the Omega stages to be reduced to 4-7 potential choices but I'm a big fan of treating all Omegas and FD as a single entity during banning.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Banning more interesting stages in favour of Omegas? Sounds like a bad plan to me. I'd be happy for the Omega stages to be reduced to 4-7 potential choices but I'm a big fan of treating all Omegas and FD as a single entity during banning.

The idea of taking out stages and adding in Omegas are actually two separate discussions that I was lumping together to create an example where 2 bans are sufficient. The stages I mentioned should probably go on their own "merits".

The other thing is we're not adding any amount of Omega stages to the list. In fact, we're taking away more than 30. All Omega stages are legal at this moment, but as I've talked about already, I think it's important that the omega stages become normalized and visible.

When it comes to banning Omega stages, we do something inconsistent with every other stage: We count multiple stages as equivalent and ban a group. For Omega stages, we use the logic that they all have similar surfaces, but we don't count Smashville and Town and City as the same during bans, nor does banning Wuhu ban Delfino plaza. That being said, there could be value in grouped bans, I just think it's important that we do the same thing for all stages.

It made sense before to ban all of them with FD when we considered all 40-whatever Omega stages interchangeable, but we know now they aren't and the differences quite large. Play a match as Megaman on FD and then on Omega Lylat if you disagree. If we shortlist a handful of different stages, it becomes manageable to treat them like we do the other stages. Above all, I'm calling for consistency.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

For this extra Omega ban, what would that look like? I'm sort of unsure how that would look on a written/typed stage list. Would you be able to give an example?

Banning Final Destination also bans omegas. Is the case that omegas aren't banned your opponent may ban 1 omega archetype. Those archetypes are:
Walled Stages: Wooly World, Yoshi's Island, Onett, Gamer, Garden of Hope, Wii Fit Studio, Duck Hunt, Wrecking Crew, Windy Hill Zone, Willy's Castle, Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Hijinx, Boxing Ring
Overhang Walls: Mushroom Kingdom U, Bridge of Eldin, Coliseum, Castle Siege, Temple, Orbital Gate Assault, 75M, The Great Cave Offense
Cruel Edge Floaters: Delfino Plazza, Mario Circuit (Brawl), Kongo Jungle 64, Skyloft, Pyroshpere, Town and City, Smashville, Pilot Wings, Wuhu Island, Lylat Cruise
Kind Edge Floaters: Mario Circuit (Wii U), Norfair, Port Town Aero Dive, Halberd, Mario Galaxy, Kalos Pokemon League, Pac-Land
Like Final Destination: Final Destination, (Big) Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2, Flat Zone X, Palutena's Temple, Skyworld, Guar Plains

 

[Pazx]

When it comes to banning Omega stages, we do something inconsistent with every other stage: We count multiple stages as equivalent and ban a group. For Omega stages, we use the logic that they all have similar surfaces, but we don't count Smashville and Town and City as the same during bans, nor does banning Wuhu ban Delfino plaza. That being said, there could be value in grouped bans, I just think it's important that we do the same thing for all stages.

It made sense before to ban all of them with FD when we considered all 40-whatever Omega stages interchangeable, but we know now they aren't and the differences quite large. Play a match as Megaman on FD and then on Omega Lylat if you disagree. If we shortlist a handful of different stages, it becomes manageable to treat them like we do the other stages. Above all, I'm calling for consistency.

There was actually an idea tossed around in Brawl, I'm not sure it had much traction or support behind it but you could effectively ban Delfino, Halberd, Frigate, Brinstar(?) against MK(?) for the price of one ban.

I genuinely think they are similar enough to warrant banning 1 = banning all. We know they have differences, that falls under counterpick advantage in my eyes.

 

[webbedspace]

Just because you've found a mimetic to more easily remember the differences doesn't mean it's something we should be expecting of everyone. There are even counter-examples to what you're saying too. Pac-land is more or less a touring stage without walls but it's Omega has walls, and you'd have to straight up know you can't wall jump off of those. Wii-fit Studio and Eldin are both walk offs and one Omega has a wall, one has a lip.

Well, if you must quibble: Pac-Land has walls in every place where it also has pits. (And it's a scrolling walk-off, not a touring stage - there's no "touring platform" that carries the fighters).

Also, why can't a simple mnemonic be expected of everyone? It isn't even a mnemonic, it's just "touring stage = floating omega", a fact that anyone can see for themselves.

I understand that it's possible to learn the differences by experience and memorization, but that's kind of the problem. A player shouldn't need those things in order to be on equal footing if they have the same skill as someone who just happened to have played more For Glory online.

For Glory online is not the only game mode in which it is possible to play omega stages. Heck, I don't even own the Wii U version and I've already memorised the general shape of all the stages by just looking at this wiki page several times.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Banning Final Destination also bans omegas. Is the case that omegas aren't banned your opponent may ban 1 omega archetype. Those archetypes are:
Walled Stages: Wooly World, Yoshi's Island, Onett, Gamer, Garden of Hope, Wii Fit Studio, Duck Hunt, Wrecking Crew, Windy Hill Zone, Willy's Castle, Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Hijinx, Boxing Ring
Overhang Walls: Mushroom Kingdom U, Bridge of Eldin, Coliseum, Castle Siege, Temple, Orbital Gate Assault, 75M, The Great Cave Offense
Cruel Edge Floaters: Delfino Plazza, Mario Circuit (Brawl), Kongo Jungle 64, Skyloft, Pyroshpere, Town and City, Smashville, Pilot Wings, Wuhu Island, Lylat Cruise
Kind Edge Floaters: Mario Circuit (Wii U), Norfair, Port Town Aero Dive, Halberd, Mario Galaxy, Kalos Pokemon League, Pac-Land
Like Final Destination: Final Destination, (Big) Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2, Flat Zone X, Palutena's Temple, Skyworld, Guar Plains

Ah, ok I see what you're saying. Even if we limit each category to 1 representative, that's still a pretty big bundle of words to put on the stage selection sheet. The main problem is that banning one category doesn't fly very far. For instance, overhanging walls and walled stages aren't really functionally different (there are still walls you can wall jump off of), so you couldn't ban out that option. Maybe making 4 categories like Cornstalk does in post 16 of this thread? It seems like a clunky option to have a different set of bans for Omega and Standard stages at this point.

There was actually an idea tossed around in Brawl, I'm not sure it had much traction or support behind it but you could effectively ban Delfino, Halberd, Frigate, Brinstar(?) against MK(?) for the price of one ban.

I genuinely think they are similar enough to warrant banning 1 = banning all. We know they have differences, that falls under counterpick advantage in my eyes.

I guess I misplaced my response to it in an earlier post, but I'm glad to hear that limiting the possible Omega stages is something you support, even if we just stick to the current ruleset aside from that. I think it's really important to take out the sort of "false choices."

Yeah, that's sort of "package deal" is similar to the second idea I was proposing. Though it seems like another really silly way to stop the dreaded Metaknight. Brawl was weird... Anyways, if you honestly think all Omega stages are close enough together that they warrant a group ban, that's fair, although I personally don't agree. However, that should mean that other group bans should exist for stages that are similar. Perhaps categories like "Flat with low platforms", or "Moving Platforms", "Touring Stages", "Transforming stages", maybe "Low Ceiling Stages" or "High Ceiling stages.

It's important to note that Omega is just a label, and so they should be treated like any other stage once they've been narrowed down. If people feel banning one platform-less stage should automatically ban all the others, then it follows that banning any other stage should also ban stages with similar properties. For instance, Banning Smashville should also ban Battlefield and Town and City.

Well, if you must quibble: Pac-Land has walls in every place where it also has pits. (And it's a scrolling walk-off, not a touring stage - there's no "touring platform" that carries the fighters).

Also, why can't a simple mnemonic be expected of everyone? It isn't even a mnemonic, it's just "touring stage = floating omega", a fact that anyone can see for themselves.

For Glory online is not the only game mode in which it is possible to play omega stages. Heck, I don't even own the Wii U version and I've already memorised the general shape of all the stages by just looking at this wiki page several times.

Yeah, I think you're missing my point. A player needn't have to study a wiki in order to be aware of their competitive options. No matter how easy you feel it is to learn, it's a wall to climb for everyone that simply doesn't need to be there.

It's like Jungle Camp respawn timers in League of Legends. A jungler must memorize the time it takes for a cleared camp to come back in order to be on the same playing field as his or her opponent. It's just facts and numbers and has nothing to do with skill, but you need it to succeed all the same. In fact, Riot came out and said this directly, then updated the game to track and display this information for the player. This is the proper way to handle fact memorization in a competitive setting.

In a similar way I do not feel memorizing the Omega stages is meaningful for a player to be forced to do. Like displaying the the jungle timers, I feel that it's important to list the actual meaningful choices upfront.

 

[infomon]

A player needn't have to study a wiki in order to be aware of their competitive options. No matter how easy you feel it is to learn, it's a wall to climb for everyone that simply doesn't need to be there.

I didn't study a wiki page. I played the game and that's how I got better, which included learning how the stages work. I expect my opponents should either know how to play the game, or lose. The only "wall" is learning how to play the game.

I really don't want other people deciding which omega stages are ok and which are not. Some people counterpick based on the colour of the stages, or the music, or other comfort factors. @ Linkshot 's omega-categories would have banned my preferred CP, the omega Sonic stage, because the music helps me get in a good mindset.

I think the common rule regarding Omegas (ban FD = ban all omegas, otherwise all omegas are available for CP) is the best we're going to get. It involves the least amount of controversial choices in the ruleset.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Linkshot]

Comfort Songs are definitely a very real thing and I will specifically counterpick songs if I'm in the mood (thanks "Press Y to alter music"). In the end, I suppose just treating them all as Flat-No-Plat and making people learn the recovery quirks is the best option, since far more of a match is neutral game, anyway.

I'm getting really curious about trying out grouped bans, though. Flat-no-Plat (aka Omega), Flat-with-Plats (BF, T&C, SV, Lylat, DH), Transforming (DP, Wuhu, Skyloft, Halberd, Siege), and you get to ban one category.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

I didn't study a wiki page. I played the game and that's how I got better, which included learning how the stages work. I expect my opponents should either know how to play the game, or lose. The only "wall" is learning how to play the game.

I really don't want other people deciding which omega stages are ok and which are not. Some people counterpick based on the colour of the stages, or the music, or other comfort factors. @ Linkshot 's omega-categories would have banned my preferred CP, the omega Sonic stage, because the music helps me get in a good mindset.

I think the common rule regarding Omegas (ban FD = ban all omegas, otherwise all omegas are available for CP) is the best we're going to get. It involves the least amount of controversial choices in the ruleset.

Just my opinion though.

What you're describing is the ideal process. Getting used to the general mechanics of the game and the stages on the stage list has a learning curve, and a player must put in that time to learn it. It's unavoidable, but it's up to designers to make learning intuitive as quick as possible. To get ready for a competitive environment, we should expect a player to be comfortable with every stage on the list, I'm not saying that's too much to ask.

However, as the stagelist currently looks, a new player can't do that. The stage list directly implies that all Omega stages are interchangeable so it's not reasonable for us to assume that they've gone through and treated them like they are functionally different. Just as it's not reasonable to assume that they'll come back to the scene if the feel bitter when someone catches them off-guard with a stage they couldn't have known existed without many hours of play and sheer luck.

I for one, didn't know there were any differences in the Omega stages besides the wall variant until I found this thread, even after many hours of play. To anyone who actually discovered Omega Lylat on their own, how many hours of play did that take? How many hours until you discovered that not all stages with walls can be wall jumped off of? Did anyone discover, through play, that grass has an effect on the match? It is insane to expect everyone who wants to come to the competitive scene to put in the number of hours required to make these discoveries only by playing the game. Especially when very few of us here can actually say we've even put in the amount of hours required to have made these chance discoveries on our own.

I'm still up for keeping the discussion going, but if we all decide that keeping the rules unchanged is best, I still have a solution to the problem that I believe has no downsides. We list a number of Recommended Omega Stages directly on the official stage list. This way, all the truly different stages would be visible to players of all levels and people would have a reason to play on these stages and the learning curve would we the same as any other legal stage as opposed to 30+ hours of playing until you stumble upon it by accident. Doing this would change no rule and cost us nothing, but there's a lot to be gained from it. What do you guys think?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I literally went through every stage on my own to see how the undersides were and found out in a match that some walls could not be wall jumped and checked those on my own before finding this thread. It didn't even take close to a day to figure this out. What I did not know about was grass traction or flat stage hitboxes. Neither of which are hard to memorize after finding out about it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

For my part, I had no idea about some Omegas like Kalos not allowing wall jumps, but I also use Rosalina who can't wall jump in the first place. I've also never noticed grass traction having an impact but I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for there in the first place.

(BTW, does normal Kalos let you wall jump?)

 

[Linkshot]

(BTW, does normal Kalos let you wall jump?)

Just tested and yes it does.

 

[Pazx]

What you're describing is the ideal process. Getting used to the general mechanics of the game and the stages on the stage list has a learning curve, and a player must put in that time to learn it. It's unavoidable, but it's up to designers to make learning intuitive as quick as possible. To get ready for a competitive environment, we should expect a player to be comfortable with every stage on the list, I'm not saying that's too much to ask.

However, as the stagelist currently looks, a new player can't do that. The stage list directly implies that all Omega stages are interchangeable so it's not reasonable for us to assume that they've gone through and treated them like they are functionally different. Just as it's not reasonable to assume that they'll come back to the scene if the feel bitter when someone catches them off-guard with a stage they couldn't have known existed without many hours of play and sheer luck.

I for one, didn't know there were any differences in the Omega stages besides the wall variant until I found this thread, even after many hours of play. To anyone who actually discovered Omega Lylat on their own, how many hours of play did that take? How many hours until you discovered that not all stages with walls can be wall jumped off of? Did anyone discover, through play, that grass has an effect on the match? It is insane to expect everyone who wants to come to the competitive scene to put in the number of hours required to make these discoveries only by playing the game. Especially when very few of us here can actually say we've even put in the amount of hours required to have made these chance discoveries on our own.

I'm still up for keeping the discussion going, but if we all decide that keeping the rules unchanged is best, I still have a solution to the problem that I believe has no downsides. We list a number of Recommended Omega Stages directly on the official stage list. This way, all the truly different stages would be visible to players of all levels and people would have a reason to play on these stages and the learning curve would we the same as any other legal stage as opposed to 30+ hours of playing until you stumble upon it by accident. Doing this would change no rule and cost us nothing, but there's a lot to be gained from it. What do you guys think?

In regards to your last paragraph: This is something I suggested earlier and I have no qualms with it as long as we can still select any Omega stage in the game. Here was suggested Omega stages list for reference:

Omega Stage List (9) - Information

Garden of Hope - Straight walls down to the bottom blast zone
Luigi's Mansion - Indented walls under stage
Bridge of Eldin - Wall is comprised of 2 straight walls above and below a curved guiding lip
Kalos Pokemon League - Guiding lip guides recoveries to ledge
Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Floating stage, Small guiding lip, limited wall jump area
Norfair - Floating stage, guiding lip
Temple - Floating stage, flat wall above narrow guiding lip
Lylat Cruise - Floating stage, no guiding lip, no wall cling/jump
Omega Palutena's - Floating, large guiding lip, wall jump and cling, like FD

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why do people not like the original FD?

Sure, there's that really bright transition that makes everything less predictable, but it only happens every once in a while and really testes your reading skills.