Wii U Omega Stage Differences

Cornstalk

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#1
Turns out there are distinct variations on the Final Destination under stage layout (with the 9th being exact clones).

Here are some words I will use regularly in describing the layouts (highlight in green little farther down):

CRATE = The actual Crate item from in the game. Referenced for size purposes.
GUIDING LIP = Diagonal geometry under the stage that will guide your Up-B towards grabbing the edge

The following is THE SAME for all Omega versions of the stages:
  • Length
  • Top blast zone from Stage
  • Side blast zone from Center
  • Side blast zone from Edge
  • Bottom blast zone from Stage

These features can be DIFFERENT between Omegas:
  • Layout below the stage
  • Grass
  • Wall Jumps
  • Wall Sticking

"Grass?" you may be asking.
Grass reduces your slide distance by about 1/2. The major impact here is dashing Up-Smashes not covering as much distance.

GRASS:
  • Mushroom Kingdom U
  • Mario Galaxy (except for the small patch of road)
  • Yoshi's Island
  • The Great Cave Offensive (only the left half of the stage)
  • Windy Hill Zone
Despite the plushy effect on Wooly World, friction behaves normally there.


All Stages should be listed in the order they appear in normal reading order (top left to right, down to next row, and so on) within each of the 9 categories they fall in.


STRAIGHT WALLS:
Wall Jumps & Sticking
Level goes straight down to the bottom blast zone from the edges and lines up with the edge
  • Wooly World
  • Yoshi's Island (Grass)
  • Onett
  • Gamer
  • Garden of Hope
  • Wii Fit Studio
  • Duck Hunt
  • Wrecking Crew
  • Windy Hill Zone (Grass)
  • Wily's Castle

UNDER STAGE STRAIGHT WALLS:
Wall Jumps & sticking
Straight walls go to the blast zone and are under stage past the edge, giving enough room to avoid Villager bowling ball drop
  • Luigi's Mansion
  • Jungle Hijinxs
  • Kalos Pokemon League
  • Boxing Ring
  • [DLC] Hyrule Castle 64

REVERSE STAIRS:
Vertically below edge is 1/3 flat
Next 1/3 is a guiding lip going inward
The final 1/3 is a vertical straight section to the bottom blast zone
Wall jump & sticking on the flat areas
  • Mushroom Kingdom U (Grass)
  • Bridge of Eldin
  • Coliseum
  • Castle Siege
  • [DLC] Suzaku Castle

UNUSABLE WALLS:
NO wall jumps or sticking
Level goes straight down to the bottom blast zone from the edges and lines up with the edge
  • Mario Galaxy (Grass)
  • Pac-Land

-ALMOST- LIKE FINAL DESTINATION:
SAME AS FD:
  • Wall jumps work up to two crate widths below the edge
  • Generous guiding lip
  • Level is floating in the air
DIFFERENT FROM FD:
  • These stages are thinner then Final Destination below the surface. This allows sharking deeper under the stage compared to regular FD. Example: Rosalina's Up-Air can hit through the stage from below only about her body width in from the edge. On these Omega variations, she can hit through the stage 3 times as far (about 3 of her body widths in from the ledge).
  • Battlefield / Big Battlefield
  • Pokemon Stadium 2 (pillar under center can be wall jumped & sticked)
  • Flat Zone X
  • Palutena's Temple
  • Skyworld
  • Gaur Plain (pillar under center CANNOT be wall jumped or stuck)
  • [DLC] Dreamland 64
  • [DLC] Midgard

THIN EDGE FLOATER:
NO wall sticking
Limited wall jump area
Tiny Guiding Lip
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Mari Circuit (Brawl)
  • Kongo Jungle 64
  • Skyloft
  • Pyrosphere (electric canisters are intangible on omega version)
  • Town and City
  • Smashville
  • Pilotwings
  • Wuhu Island
  • [DLC] Mii Verse
  • [DLC] Umbral Clock Tower

WIDE EDGE FLOATER:
Generous guiding lip when under stage
NO wall sticking
Wall Jump only works right at edge when re-grabbing is not available
  • Mario Circuit (Wii U)
  • Norfair
  • Port Town Aero Drive
  • Halberd
  • [DLC] Peach's Castle 64
  • [DLC] Mario Maker
  • [DLC] Pirate Ship (no wall jumping, pillar under stage is part of background)

BLOCK EDGE FLOATER:
Crate tall flat area vertically under edge
Then a tall but narrow guiding lip under the vertical section
Wall Jump & Sticking on vertical area directly below edge
  • Temple
  • Orbital Gate Assault
  • 75M
  • The Great Cave Offensive (Grass on left half)

LYLAT:
Before 1.06 patch:
  • NO guiding lip
  • NO wall jump or sticking
  • Tiny sweetspot
Patch 1.06 (Mewtwo) and on:
  • Very thin for about 1/3 of the length on each side (easy sharking for characters like Rosalina)
  • Has a visually obvious guiding lip
  • NO wall jump or sticking


Closing Thoughts:
Lylat Cruise really stands out as THE omega counter pick to me. If your opponent has a character with a difficult to aim recovery, you're going to be a serious jerk to them by picking that stage. Cruel edge floaters are the next best thing if you can't go to Lylat.

Lylat is now a great Omega for sharking because of the new and very generous guiding lip. Ike's Up-B and Rosalina's Up-Air will definitely shine here.

The 5 stages with grass are a good choice for dealing with dashing Up-Smashes. The lack of slide distance for characters like Fox will make it a little harder for them to get in on you. Great Cave Offensive's half and half can really wreck someone's spacing as well because of the 2 different frictions.

Block Edge Floaters can potentially mess with wall sticking characters. They have a very small area to stick to, meaning you might get lucky and catch them accidentally sticking and leaving themselves open. Rude walls can also be good because they all look like you can jump or stick to them, but you can't.



Basically, there are 8 variations of Omegas that deviate from Final Destination's under stage layout.

I recommend these 8 stages because of being easy on the eyes and lacking any major distractions in the background:

Straight Walls: Wily's Castle (Yoshi's Island if Grass is allowed)
Under Stage Straight Walls: Kalos Pokemon League
Reverse Stairs: Bridge of Eldin (Mushroom Kingdom U for Grass)
Unusable Walls: Pac Land (Maroi Galaxy for Grass)
Thin Edge Floater: Kongo Jungle 64
Wide Edge Floater: Norfair
Block Edge Floater: Temple (Great Cave Offensive for a half-Grass option)
Lylat


Here's a video of most of the Omega versions of the stages (thanks SonicZeroX for finding this)


5/4/16 Update:
  • Renamed a few categories for better clarity
  • Reworked a few explanation for better organization/readability
  • Moved Kalos Pokemon League to Under Stage Straight Walls (wall jumping/sticking now works)
  • Updated Wide Edge Floaters to include wall jumping at ledge (previously had it listed as impossible)
  • Added DLC stages
 
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Pazx

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#4
I'm really curious how Omega stages will factor into stage selection for tournaments. Is this information true across both versions of the game or just WiiU?
Currently, if you ban/strike FD it counts as banning/striking every Omega stage too.

Good write up, thanks.
 

Lex Jewthor

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#5
More likely than not that all Omega stages will be banned because its confusing.

How ironic.
In 3DS, all Omegas were available counterpicks. However, if FD was banned by a player during pick phase or striked, all Omegas were banned as well. I imagine it may be similar here, although I can see myself banning Lylat FD individually a lot (during picks, I mean).
 
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#6
For those who want actual images of each omega stage:

None of the unlockable stages are here, but there's only 6 of them anyways and none of them are that unique.
 

proxibomb

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#8
Thanks for the information. I hope all omega stages will be allowed, instead of a select type of few being banned (for dumb reasons). Everything seems good, so I'm not worried at all about this problem.
 
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#9
you guys are crazy if you think these differences will wield bans. besides lylat. very maybe.

the lack of platforms and hazards is why people will be brought to Fd and omegas, not the other small stuff. not saying it won't have any impact, but it's a lessened impact when compared to what they SHARE. all 46.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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#13
The differences between Omega stage is much larger than I thought.... It could be very problematic to actually explain how they would work in a tournament, but I think it would be slightly easier if all Omegas (besides the original FD) were in their own stagelist, rather than making a universal stagelist containing all legal stages.....
 

XanFire

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#14
Here is how I will be running it.This is what I suggested to the South Carolina Community:

You can only counterpick to an omega which stage is "legal". For example, If smashville is legal, then a player may counterpick to smashville, however he wouldn't be able to counterpick to Temple if that stage is banned.

Also, you cannot Counterpick to an omega stage that an opponent bans. So if a player picks Lylat Cruise to ban, the opponent cannot counterpick Lylat Cruise "Omega"

And obviously, a player may chose to ban Omega's as a counterpick.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is designed to reduce confusion, and remove the possibility of needing a whole new list for Omegas. So as another example, this is the first draft of our legal stage list until the smash community as a whole can figure out a stage list.

REMEMBER: THIS LIST IS ONLY BEING USED AS AN EXAMPLE!!!!!!


Smash 4 Wii U Stage List

-STARTERS-

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

-COUNTER PICKS-

Omega forms
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege



So in this list, Only those map's Omega stages are legal in this example. Then just reread the example above.
 

DavemanCozy

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#15
Here is how I will be running it.This is what I suggested to the South Carolina Community:

You can only counterpick to an omega which stage is "legal". For example, If smashville is legal, then a player may counterpick to smashville, however he wouldn't be able to counterpick to Temple if that stage is banned.
Eh, I dunno about this. The point of Omega stages was so that we could have all the music available to us. I guess this works for now, but there's gotta be a better way that let's me pick Guar Plains, Colliseum and Wily's Castle for that amazing music.
 

Cornstalk

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#16
Eh, I dunno about this. The point of Omega stages was so that we could have all the music available to us. I guess this works for now, but there's gotta be a better way that let's me pick Guar Plains, Colliseum and Wily's Castle for that amazing music.
From the 8 distinct shapes you could condense the list down a little farther by combining the mostly similar shapes into a single category and making them a counter-pick option.

Straight Walls + Under Stage Walls:
The accomplish basically the same thing. There are walls to stick to and jump off of.

Overhang Walls + Fat Lip Floater:
There's a small area to wall cling/jump right at the edge along with a decent guiding lip. Good counter-picks against wall clingers.

Cruel Edge Floater + Lylat (the jerk):
Hardest edges to sweet spot, good for characters like Jiggly to use as counter-pick against opponents with a clumsy recovery.

Rude Walls (no wall jump/sticking):
All of edge guiding goodness of a wall with none of the fun of jumping or sticking to it.


Kind Edge Floater + Final Destination (and clones):
While you can't wall jump on the floaters, both stages have a large and very kind guiding lip to take you back to the edge if you go under the stage.

So instead of 9 different flat stages, you have Final Destination (and very close variants for stage variety) and 4 counter pick options depending on your below the stage preference or options to counter your opponents recovery.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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#17
From the 8 distinct shapes you could condense the list down a little farther by combining the mostly similar shapes into a single category and making them a counter-pick option.

Straight Walls + Under Stage Walls:
The accomplish basically the same thing. There are walls to stick to and jump off of.

Overhang Walls + Fat Lip Floater:
There's a small area to wall cling/jump right at the edge along with a decent guiding lip. Good counter-picks against wall clingers.

Cruel Edge Floater + Lylat (the jerk):
Hardest edges to sweet spot, good for characters like Jiggly to use as counter-pick against opponents with a clumsy recovery.

Rude Walls (no wall jump/sticking):
All of edge guiding goodness of a wall with none of the fun of jumping or sticking to it.


Kind Edge Floater + Final Destination (and clones):
While you can't wall jump on the floaters, both stages have a large and very kind guiding lip to take you back to the edge if you go under the stage.

So instead of 9 different flat stages, you have Final Destination (and very close variants for stage variety) and 4 counter pick options depending on your below the stage preference or options to counter your opponents recovery.
I think TOs should choose which type they want and if they want to ise tour way of classifying Omega types. I'm not denying it, I really like your idea, but it should be up to TOs to decide what they want to do with Omega stages.
 

Gidy

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#18
Really interesting. Loving how the stage list is turning out for this game.

Also, can we have Jungle Hijinx as doubles and Winy Hill Zome as counter pick or at least teams?
 

Gords

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#24
This was the way i dealt with it in 3DS. (note not the complete list)

Starter Stages
  • Omega Ferox*
Counter-Pick Stages
  • Final Destination**
* Omega Ferox refers to the FD form of Arena Ferox.
** Final Destination includes all Omega stages except Balloon Fight, Pac-Maze, PictoChat 2
Banning FD includes a ban for all Omega stages, picking FD can be any legal Omega.

I banned these specific Omega stages due to greninja shadow step being completely invisible on these stages during gameplay
I chose Arena Ferox Omega to be the starter FD since it seems the most balanced with a lip and a wall.

I will be doing a similar structure for the WiiU at my tournaments. So far I am looking at either Palutena's Temple or Battlefield as the starter FD. So far I have not seen any ban worthy Omega stage yet
 

Gords

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#26
Slightly harder edges to sweet spot, favoring certain characters is not a reason to ban.
Things like this is what the counter pick procedure is for.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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#27
Slightly harder edges to sweet spot, favoring certain characters is not a reason to ban.
Things like this is what the counter pick procedure is for.
Phew, because I main ZSS and SideB tethers are legde auto-sweetspotting lifesavers.

Still though, I don't think any Omega will get banned, but I can alreau give to Omega counterpicks: Great Cave Offensive (half grass, half normal system can be confusing) and Lylat Cruise (smallest ledges)
 

smashbro29

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#28
I love the research on that first post. My one issue is why only allow 1 variant of each? Why not just break it down to 8 stages but allow every variant?

For example:

  • Battlefield / Big Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Pokemon Stadium 2
  • Flat Zone X
  • Palutena's Temple
  • Skyworld
  • Gaur Plain
Would all count as one "stage" in the stage picking process. If grass is an issue to someone picking they can ban/choose it on purpose, I imagine it won't be an issue to most people but the contingency is there.
 
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Cornstalk

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#29
I love the research on that first post. My one issue is why only allow 1 variant of each? Why not just break it down to 8 stages but allow every variant?
Tournament simplicity.

8 stages with the least distracting backgrounds and color pallets is much easier for a large amount of people to follow then specifically memorizing which stage falls into which category. They wouldn't need to be banned since both players could still agree on a different skin of the same theme.

You can also set the omega stages to on/off once random stage select is unlocked. This can act as an in game list right on the rules page for which omega stage is allowed and even be used for random non-FD flat stage for those players that really don't care.
 

webbedspace

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#30
What I want to know is why, apart from tradition, it's been decided that Just Like FD is the most "fair" of the omegas, to the point of making FD / ΩPT a starter and locking all the others in the counterpick category. Is there a decisive argument why, for instance, Straight Walls isn't fairier than the old FD? (It's obvious it gives a slight boost to wall-jumpers compared to FD, but is that more or less fair? Letting those characters have their walls for Game 1 would make their wall-jump ability a legitimate asset instead of just a rare oddity, and might help differentiate them from the rest of the cast.)
 
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smashbro29

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#33
Tournament simplicity.

8 stages with the least distracting backgrounds and color pallets is much easier for a large amount of people to follow then specifically memorizing which stage falls into which category. They wouldn't need to be banned since both players could still agree on a different skin of the same theme.

You can also set the omega stages to on/off once random stage select is unlocked. This can act as an in game list right on the rules page for which omega stage is allowed and even be used for random non-FD flat stage for those players that really don't care.
I still feel if someone remembers the whole thing they should be allowed to pick the one they like the look of.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#34
So something no one talks about is the thickness of the stages. I noticed on Omega Halberd in particular it's very easy for attacks with large disjoints (like Rosalina uair, G&W nair, etc.) to hit through the stage near the ledge which is a lot less true on default Final Destination. This varies a lot stage to stage with the walled omegas obviously having no potential for this at all and the others having a varying extent of this. Notably default FD is pretty bad for it but something like Omega Battlefield is a pretty good stage for it, and it affects the ledge game in some match-ups to a non-trivial extent (and IMO matters more than either the traction or the under-stage shape for Rosalina, probably many other characters too).

This is a big part of the problem with making any FD other than the real FD the "default" FD. The default FD has a unique shape that has a substantial effect on the ledge game (I think Omega Palutena's Temple is overall the closest stage to default FD... though seriously people complaining about default FD's background seems like a massive case of johns to me). Just make all Omegas legal counterpicks but the default FD the only one used for game one and lump them all together for stage bans. If people really hate Omega Lylat Cruise's ledges you can just specifically ban that one omega which is clean and simple to remember (unlike complaining about default FD's background which is ridiculous, Omega Lylat Cruise ledges are actually gameplay relevant and if nothing else definitely extremely obnoxious).
 
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Pazx

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#35
I suggested this somewhere, can't remember which thread, but striking/banning a stage should also ban the Omega version of that stage and that stage only. Eg, you ban Lylat Cruise, your opponent takes you to an Omega of his choice, he can choose from any omega stage except for Lylat. This would likely only affect Lylat (and potentially Duck Hunt) and I see no downsides to it.
 

infomon

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#38
It just seems weird to say, "These two stages are similar enough that banning one bans both of them." Because they're different stages, and a preference for one does *not* automatically imply preference about the other. So then we're just complicating the whole process. Do I want to ban Lylat in the scenario I described? Maybe, but it's really not obvious.
 

Cornstalk

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#39
So something no one talks about is the thickness of the stages. I noticed on Omega Halberd in particular it's very easy for attacks with large disjoints (like Rosalina uair, G&W nair, etc.) to hit through the stage near the ledge which is a lot less true on default Final Destination.
Thanks for pointing this out. Rosalina, just as an example, can reach about 3 times deeper into the stage from below on the omegas that I thought were just like FD. The main post has been updated to mention their -almost- like FD, with the thickness being the only thing that really stands out for a sharking scenario.

It's worth mentioning. It's just as much of an obscure but occasionally useful niche as wall jumping.

I believe hitting from bellow is completely possible on both the kind and cruel guiding lip variations and omega lylat because they're all quite thin. So I'm not going to take the time to test it, but I'll update the post again if someone points out a correction, as always. :)
 

Pazx

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#40
It just seems weird to say, "These two stages are similar enough that banning one bans both of them." Because they're different stages, and a preference for one does *not* automatically imply preference about the other. So then we're just complicating the whole process. Do I want to ban Lylat in the scenario I described? Maybe, but it's really not obvious.
The thing is Lylat Cruise is literally the only stage in the game where any of this matters and if you're banning Lylat you're likely doing it for the edges and the tilting, 50% of which applies to the Omega stage as well. If you ban Lylat and I take you to Omega Lylat you're likely to be annoyed, so my mini suggestion would require me to take you to literally any other Omega/FD in the game which works because the main point of the FDesque stages is the layout and lack of platforms, rather than the edges.
 
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