Smash Wii U Wii U is hackable - Will there be mods again?

[ScottyWK]

Have to disagree with that "still fun for casuals" part, to some extent. Not that it's terrible for that purpose, but it's not as good as vanilla Brawl. The stage list in Project M is a repetitive snoozefest for casual play (even going as far as making some really fun Brawl stages, like WarioWare, super boring), and for some strange reason, they don't let you pick up items while dashing, which feels really counter-intuitive for casuals (and keeping the feature would not have effected competitive play - it's literally only removed to make that aspect of the game more like Melee, for the sake of it, rather than being of benefit to anyone).

And while Turbo Mode is awesome, it comes across as more of a "fun for advanced players who want something crazier" kind of thing, rather than being fun for casuals, since you need to be very good at the game to really see the effect of Turbo Mode.

And in it's current state, PM removes some rather fun single-player modes like SSE, that also have co-op play.

But even if the casual elements you enjoy are in the single player and item mechanics (which can be found in the original game, presumably), then there should be no problem if other people preferred the hackable version. It's not like you are forced to choose one or the other. You must have Smash 4 (or Brawl, in M's case) to make it happen, so everyone is happy.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

But even if the casual elements you enjoy are in the single player and item mechanics (which can be found in the original game, presumably), then there should be no problem if other people preferred the hackable version. It's not like you are forced to choose one or the other. You must have Smash 4 (or Brawl, in M's case) to make it happen, so everyone is happy.

Scotty, I came to the realization long ago that they'll never care that they don't have to play competitively or pick up a mod. The casual elitist just boggles the mind. I don't know why I keep replying to any of them.

 

[Renji64]

Jesus Christ, the game is not even out yet people. Why is this even up for discussion? Would it kill people to wait a year or two AFTER the game's release to think about these things?

Because people don't believe in sakurai and people have the rignt not to trust him or his subtractive game design style.

 

[Pyra]

The beauty of how the question, "Do you want a new Project M-kinda thing?", is worded is that it's personal.
Do I want one? No, not particularly. I'm not going to play it.

But I personally wouldn't be offended if people do end up making one. That's good for the people who want it, and it doesn't effect me one bit.

 

[praline]

I still find it funny that it's called Project M when melee was a terribly unbalanced game.

 

[LancerStaff]

You people have been ignoring something pretty important: Bannings. I've seen plenty of people get perma-banned on Miiverse, and you'll have to re-buy your eshop games if you do. Every NNID connected to the system is broken, so you can't just make an alt either. You either need a separate Wii U, or you can't buy a single thing from the eshop. I've even heard rumors that Nintendo bricks systems that get enough bans, so you'll be risking a couple hundred and your saves for hacking.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Smash 4 doesn't "need" to be modded, because it isn't about should/shouldn't, or need/needn't, but of can/can't.

I ended up writing a thesis on the subject (because I have zero discipline as a writer), and as a result of its length, I'll collapse it via spoiler tags; the tl;dr version will be found below.

[collapse=On Modding, Content, and the Relationship between Creator and Consumer]
In my view, game modding seems categorically similar to fan fiction, despite the disparity of the media involved. You take a fictional universe or narrative that you're passionate about, then personalize the experience further via your own writing (or fan comics, or fan art, or whatever). Likewise, you take a game that you're passionate about, then personalize the experience further via modding and/or hacks. And for both cases, you share your output with fellow passionate fans of the source material.

There are no legal or financial downsides for the creator of the source material, because fan fiction and mods alike aren't sold for profit (unless they are, in which case you have a violation of copyright laws). The creator isn't making money, necessarily, but they aren't losing any either -- unless you consider not making money to be equivalent to losing revenue potential. But only a minority of the consumer base would engage in fan fiction/modding/other forms of fanmade products to begin with (unless this minority becomes so substantive that it noticeably hurts revenue, in which case things become problematic (though that's another discussion)).

Evidently, the ideal is to support the creator with your fistfuls of cash, but a minority do circumvent this for X reason(s), which can't be helped. This doesn't make modding impermissible; it only makes you somewhat inconsiderate for not monetarily supporting the things you like and those who make them. But that's also another topic of discussion.

The point of this tangent is to whittle down the reasons why modding shouldn't be pursued, so far as Smash 4 is concerned. If legal and/or financial concerns aren't relevant to the discussion, then what other dissuasive factors remain?

Barring those concerns, we have to turn to art itself, and the creator-product-audience relationship trifecta. Is modding a game (X) an act of disrespect toward the creator (Y) -- they who have invested much time and effort in the creation of the game? Is modding Smash 4 an act of disrespect toward Sakurai, Sora, and Bamco -- they who have invested two or so years of development across two systems, with Sakurai in particular known to be singularly dedicated to his work, even in spite of health obstacles?

Is writing fan fiction about a book or a movie or a television show an act of disrespect toward the creator -- they who have invested much time and effort in the construction of their narrative (and the execution of this narrative within their respective media)?

Why would it be? In what way does Y follow from X?

If a product shouldn't be modified further by the audience, then where does this "shouldn't" come from? Is it because the audience would not be showing gratitude for the time and effort invested in the creation and dissemination of the end product? But for what more gratitude could a content creator wish than for their fans to be so passionate about their product(s) that they would explore the creator's original ideas in new ways and forms, as an extension, if not a continuation of the creative process?

Why would they be resentful of such a percentile of their audience? Because of loss of potential revenue? Those who truly do appreciate the creator's output will surely and certainly support them, monetarily or otherwise. Because they consider their work their "baby", and a violation of this sanctified artistic vision is a proverbial slap in the face? Your artistic vision is lost the moment you set your baby free into the world, where they grow and flourish in the imaginations of the audience.

As one who writes, I'd be elated to know that some of my (hypothetical) readers engaged in fan fiction based on my (hopefully eventual) works. Such activity has zero negative legal or financial repercussions for my person, and it can't shred my artistic ego to tatters, because the reason I write is to share ideas with others, to inspire them and take their imaginations to places never before seen -- not for the readers to glorify me as a writer, or to praise me for my efforts (though that would be a nice bonus, of course).

If Sakurai were to feel slighted in the light of Smash 4 modding, then that would be on him. The only thing the creator owes to their audience is the product, no more and no less; and the audience doesn't owe anything at all to the creator, since they have zero obligation to purchase or support the product. They can purchase or support the product (and thereby, the creator), but they don't need to.

Which brings us back full circle to my original point, and thereby, the conclusion of this exhausting and circuitous arrangement of ideas.
[/collapse]

At this juncture, it would seem that there are no reasons why we shouldn't mod Smash 4. There are also no reasons why we should.

Those that want to will, and those that don't will not. And this, for whatever reason(s).

Modding Smash 4 is by no means an indication that the modder thinks Smash 4 is broken, or needs to be fixed, or isn't a complete game, or so forth. Smash 4 will be a complete game with or without modding. Unless, of course, the modder does think Smash 4 needs to be fixed, and mods for that express purpose. But what does anyone else care if that's the case? If you think Smash 4 is good or perfect as it is, you wouldn't engage in the world of modding in the first place.

If there are those that want to mod Smash 4 to increase competitive and/or technical depth even further, in what would be a spiritual successor to P:M, then by all means. Those who have no interest in playing such a mod will stick to regular Smash 4, or try other mods (if they are made), or make their own.

Allow me to close this by quoting a sage Jedi master:

"Can or cannot. There is no should or need."

-Yoda


EDIT: At no point in this discourse I have made any notes on the practicality of modding, especially with the Wii U -- and this, because I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to offer any insights. Even so, my point would still stand; the fact that there are risks or obstacles in pursuing modding, doesn't make the practice of modding impermissible or unfavourable.

 

[Vkrm]

At first I was really irritated by all the pm hate in this thread, but then I realized the people who hate on it feel probably threatened because a ragtag group of college kids can make something more appealing than a team of over 100 professional game designers. In their free time. Get bodied sakurai. Try again in 6 more years.

I still find it funny that it's called Project M when melee was a terribly unbalanced game.

Melee's balance is actually quite remarkable all things considered. But why would you know that? You're just parroting what you perceive to be a valid criticism of melee's meta. Not based on actual research. If you think smash 4 is going to be as balanced I feel you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

 

[Pyra]

If you think smash 4 is going to be as balanced I feel you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

But why would you know that?.

It's not even out yet. I'd say save the Sm4sh balance criticism for when it is.

 

[Vkrm]

It's not even out yet. I'd say save the Sm4sh balance criticism for when it is.

If its too early for me to be pessimistic, everybody's optimism is equally premature. Based on what we've see already, I think we can make some predictions. Sakurai thought samus was one the more powerful characters at invitational up until 16 knowledgeable players passed on her. He insists on handling the balance himself despite having staff with solid fighting game credentials.

 

[ScottyWK]

I still find it funny that it's called Project M when melee was a terribly unbalanced game.

In Brawl, there was one character that had a tier of his own, so much to the point that he had to be banned from the competitive scene.

You don't see that in the Melee scene. There are some obviously bad fighters, yes, but there's a healthy number of competitive options when it comes to balance.

So tell me again how Melee was "terribly unbalanced?"

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

If its too early for me to be pessimistic, everybody's optimism is equally premature. Based on what we've see already, I think we can make some predictions. Sakurai thought samus was one the more powerful characters at invitational up until 16 knowledgeable players passed on her. He insists on handling the balance himself despite having staff with solid fighting game credentials.

A staff he doesn't even trust to handle instructions he gives.

 

[LancerStaff]

If its too early for me to be pessimistic, everybody's optimism is equally premature. Based on what we've see already, I think we can make some predictions. Sakurai thought samus was one the more powerful characters at invitational up until 16 knowledgeable players passed on her. He insists on handling the balance himself despite having staff with solid fighting game credentials.

Remember when Jigglypuff was put high on the April fools' tier list? Or when Olimar was gimmicky trash? And then there's the fact Samus was the best on the current version, not that one. And Sakurai has a team of twelve helping him, and I doubt he has the Tales of team on this.

In Brawl, there was one character that had a tier of his own, so much to the point that he had to be banned from the competitive scene.

You don't see that in the Melee scene. There are some obviously bad fighters, yes, but there's a healthy number of competitive options when it comes to balance.

So tell me again how Melee was "terribly unbalanced?"

Shiek was almost banned before Fox's rise, and besides an outlier or two, Brawl is about as balanced as Melee. Both games are poorly balanced IMO.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Both games are poorly balanced IMO.

That's just like, your opinion, MAN.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's just like, your opinion, MAN.

Only one quarter of the cast is effectively useable in either. Stinkin' Kirby Fighters is more balanced then that!

 

[κomıc]

With how tight Nintendo is on security (I don't believe they've even been able to crack DSi and 3DS), they won't get far with it. The Wii was modded within months after a release and now with Wii U being out for a year and a half, there hasn't been much progress.

In terms of Project M too- nah. Project M is great but I think it is about time we move past Melee. Despite what fans of that game may think, Melee is a game that was only good for its time and frankly, doesn't hold up well for today's standards. Clunky imprecise controls that say compared to even older games such as Marvel vs Capcom or the games that launched alongside Gamecube really show that Melee isn't the great game people are making it out to be. There wasn't nothing like Super Smash Bros Melee for 7 years and in that time Nintendo never put out a new Smash Bros game. For years the players have been playing this "one" game in that in turn made this illusion that it is the perfect competitive game and anything afterwards in their eyes are trash. It's really a sad state because I don't believe you see this much drama or disturbance between MvC2 and MvC3 or any other fighting game.

I know my comment will rile people up but I'm just looking at it from an objective point of view. I appreciate Melee for what it was and how it brought back Ice Climbers in some form and introduced western players to Fire Emblem. I appreciate the amazing intro that trumps Brawl's horrible slap-dash intro. I appreciate the Adventure mode and would hope they'd bring that back for Smash 4 and expand on it. All the games have their weaknesses and it's sad that Melee players for the most part believe their game is untouchable or the "best" when looking at a broader point of view and not in the competitive bubble, it really isn't.

No tea no shade.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Project M 2.0? Last I checked, the mod was well past 3.0 by now.

Yes I've made that joke before.

Something it seems you guys keep forgetting, PATCHING is possible now. Yeah, surprise! Sure it likely won't make the game closer to Melee (which it honestly has no reason to be) but it can certainly help make a more balanced game if needed.
Stop assuming the game's going to be garbage when IT'S NOT EVEN OUT YET.

As for modding in general, we probably won't be seeing anything major for at least several years from now. Project M 3.0 came out only 5 years after Brawl came out and who knows how long that's been in the works for. (I'm sure some of you know, but I don't and really don't care). Texture and Model hacking I would be interested in but I can live without it.

 

[κomıc]

As for modding in general, we probably won't be seeing anything major for at least several years from now. Project M 3.0 came out only 5 years after Brawl came out and who knows how long that's been in the works for. (I'm sure some of you know, but I don't and really don't care).

Hm, Brawl+ came out around 2009 and I believe Project M just built on that mod concept. I think.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Hm, Brawl+ came out around 2009 and I believe Project M just built on that mod concept. I think.

Interesting. I'm not familiar with Brawl+. Can someone provide a brief rundown of what that does?

 

[κomıc]

Interesting. I'm not familiar with Brawl+. Can someone provide a brief rundown of what that does?

From what I remember, it basically sped up the characters and brought back hit stun from Melee. It also made some adjustments to some characters like Metaknight's Mach Tornado. IMHO, I liked it a lot more than Project M and Brawl from the time I spent playing it. The team stopped working on it and they moved on to take on Project M.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

From what I remember, it basically sped up the characters and brought back hit stun from Melee. It also made some adjustments to some characters like Metaknight's Mach Tornado. IMHO, I liked it a lot more than Project M and Brawl from the time I spent playing it. The team stopped working on it and they moved on to take on Project M.

I see. And this was back in 2009? I take it back then. Still there hasn't been any major modding for the Wii U and it's already heading into it's second year. It could still be a while.

 

[κomıc]

I see. And this was back in 2007? I take it back then. Still there hasn't been any major modding for the Wii U and it's already heading into it's second year. It could still be a while.

Nah, 2009.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Nah, 2009.

Brawl came out in 2008.... Wow my bad. Don't know what I was thinking.

 

[D-idara]

If the PMBR wanna take a crack at balancing Smash 4 somewhere down the line, I'd totally welcome it. Those guys make some really great stuff and it's awesome to see what regular dudes from the community are capable of. The only downside is it would probably persuade me to waste money on a Wii U.

Personally, I don't think it'll be necessary. They've already come so far with modding Brawl, so I think it would make more sense to add content to the existing version of PM rather than start from scratch on a new one. I can't even imagine any benefits from modding Smash 4 other than having a higher resolution version of PM, which we kinda already have with Dolphin.

Regardless, it's pretty funny to see how close-minded some people are when it comes to PM.

If you're a gamer with half-decent taste, you wouldn't be wasting your money on a Wii U.

 

[Halfhead]

I would love a mod just to add directional air dodges.

 

[Vkrm]

I see. And this was back in 2009? I take it back then. Still there hasn't been any major modding for the Wii U and it's already heading into it's second year. It could still be a while.

Ive got bad news for people who take a strong stance against pm. I've heard the lengthiest part of the process had nothing to do with hacking brawl or the wii. Hacking melee to get the DAT files took most of the time and now that its done is just a question of being able to edit character files. Might be easy, might be impossible.

 

[Fastblade5035]

If you're a gamer with half-decent taste, you wouldn't be wasting your money on a Wii U.

To argue or to ignore...
i posted this from a wii u lolol

 

[Pyra]

If you're a gamer with half-decent taste, you wouldn't be wasting your money on a Wii U.

I have one and I prefer it to either Sony's or Microsoft's machines. :U
I see no problems here.

 

[ChikoLad]

But even if the casual elements you enjoy are in the single player and item mechanics (which can be found in the original game, presumably), then there should be no problem if other people preferred the hackable version. It's not like you are forced to choose one or the other. You must have Smash 4 (or Brawl, in M's case) to make it happen, so everyone is happy.

That wasn't my point - it's just that "casual appeal" isn't necessarily a "selling point" (so to speak), of Project M, like you said it was, since vanilla Brawl serves that purpose much better to begin with. There is literally no incentive for a casual player to go through the effort of installing Project M themselves (except for maybe the alt costumes and the ability to pit Mewtwo against Lucario or something).

Not that it matters, because, you know, it's not exactly trying to appeal to casuals. It's explicitly doing the opposite.

Also, I believe you guys misunderstood D-idara's post as a shot at the Wii U, when it's the opposite.

 

[Mr.Random]

I feel the OP is trying to start a war. Project M ISN'T EVEN FINISHED YET, and while I love it to death. I'd love a new Smash game with a new engine. I want to play SOMETHING NEW. I'll always play all of the smash games since each one is DIFFERENT. See what I'm saying? Can't we just all admit that Smash as a whole is an awesome series and just leave it at that.
edit: Close thread pls

 

[Rᴏb]

If you're a gamer with half-decent taste, you wouldn't be wasting your money on a Wii U.

tbh it's just that if I had the money to spend, I rather put it into a PC because of the sheer amount of games and longevity they have. And idk, nintendo rehashes don't appeal to me as much as they used to.

I still find it funny that it's called Project M when melee was a terribly unbalanced game.

I find this statement pretty funny myself! I wish I knew what exactly you were trying to imply so I could laugh harder.

 

[GeNo-BreaKer]

If you're a gamer with half-decent taste, you wouldn't be wasting your money on a Wii U.

By that standard you wouldn't waste your money on a 3DS.

 

[Vkrm]

I feel the OP is trying to start a war. Project M ISN'T EVEN FINISHED YET, and while I love it to death. I'd love a new Smash game with a new engine. I want to play SOMETHING NEW. I'll always play all of the smash games since each one is DIFFERENT. See what I'm saying? Can't we just all admit that Smash as a whole is an awesome series and just leave it at that.
edit: Close thread pls

Playing a brawl hd remix is your idea of playing something new? I'm just saying if they're going to cop out and rehash game mechanics, why couldn't they have have come from the game that stood the test of time? And another thing that bothers me is how everybody is asking for something new. I'd rather have something good and familiar than new and ****e. Besides that melee has provided me with something new every time I've sat down to play it, or watch a stream. Playing somebody for the first time is always new and exciting. Discovering new tech always makes things feel fresh.

 

[ChikoLad]

Playing a brawl hd remix is your idea of playing something new? I'm just saying if they're going to cop out and rehash game mechanics, why couldn't they have have come from the game that stood the test of time? And another thing that bothers me is how everybody is asking for something new. I'd rather have something good and familiar than new and ****e. Besides that melee has provided me with something new every time I've sat down to play it, or watch a stream. Playing somebody for the first time is always new and exciting. Discovering new tech always makes things feel fresh.

ur a hd remix

 

[Vkrm]

That wasn't my point - it's just that "casual appeal" isn't necessarily a "selling point" (so to speak), of Project M, like you said it was, since vanilla Brawl serves that purpose much better to begin with.

Project m is free so your argument is invalid. But seriously what does brawl do so much better? None of the gameplay changes are objectively better. There's no shortage of casuals who prefer the fast pace play of pm to brawl.

There is literally no incentive for a casual player to go through the effort of installing Project M themselves (except for maybe the alt costumes and the ability to pit Mewtwo against Lucario or the removal of tripping, the retuned balance, larger roster, faster gameplay, new modes, new stages, streamlined UI, and additional fan service.)

Not that it matters, because, you know, it's not exactly trying to appeal to casuals. It's explicitly doing the opposite

This is conversation we need to have because this seems to be sakurai's thinking on the matter. To me it seems the only thing brawl does to cater to the casual fanbase is to cut out the competitive side altogether. The fact that it was designed to discourage our type of play elevates it in your eyes? Is that's what it takes to please you guys? You need to be the sole focus?

 

[Mo433]

I wouldn't mind one, but it won't happen ANYTIME soon. Making something similar to Project M on Wii U will take a lot of time. Also, it will most likely be something that a minority of people have access to. The Wii U sure won't be as easy to hack like the Wii was. If a Project M on WIi U does happen, it won't be something that you can just download off the internet. The best chance people have to another Project M is on Smash 3DS, and even that won't be something that can just be pulled off easily.

 

[Aguki90]

Costume and Music hacks?

Yes.

Another Project M?

No.

Well...This is exactly What I gonna say and..
OH!!! Stage skins would be cool too.

 

[Deleted member]

Ohey, the thread title makes sense now!

I'd like music mods, and maybe texture hacks. Those are fun to mess with.

 

[JayJay584]

Playing a brawl hd remix is your idea of playing something new? I'm just saying if they're going to cop out and rehash game mechanics, why couldn't they have have come from the game that stood the test of time? And another thing that bothers me is how everybody is asking for something new. I'd rather have something good and familiar than new and ****e. Besides that melee has provided me with something new every time I've sat down to play it, or watch a stream. Playing somebody for the first time is always new and exciting. Discovering new tech always makes things feel fresh.

I didn't realize we had a time traveler from the future among us who has already experienced all the game has to offer.

 

[ChikoLad]

Project m is free so your argument is invalid. But seriously what does brawl do so much better? None of the gameplay changes are objectively better. There's no shortage of casuals who prefer the fast pace play of pm to brawl.








This is conversation we need to have because this seems to be sakurai's thinking on the matter. To me it seems the only thing brawl does to cater to the casual fanbase is to cut out the competitive side altogether. The fact that it was designed to discourage our type of play elevates it in your eyes? Is that's what it takes to please you guys? You need to be the sole focus?

Oh my god you are being so short sighted and trying to pick arguments for the sake of it that it's not even funny.

You do realise that due to being a non US user, I had to go through extra trouble to get PM working on my Wii, and then went out of my way to make an ISO of it so I could play it on my laptop in Dolphin, and then forked out money for two Mayflash GC controller adapters for my PC, right?

I love PM. But I also recognise it's target audience, and I don't think a Smash 4 version is necessary. That's what my posts here were about. I have no incentive to bash PM itself, as I really love it.

And please don't talk to me like I'm "one of those Brawl peasants". I'm a Smash fan. Not an elitist of Melee or Brawl.