Why was Olimar so downgraded?

[Morbi]

I don't necessarily believe that he was nerfed beyond comprehension. I mean, certain aspects about the character seem better. I would hate to be "that" guy, but we need to wait and play to see, you never know, the 3 Pikmin he is provided might be way better than the 6 we got in Brawl.

 

[Jerm]

I don't necessarily believe that he was nerfed beyond comprehension. I mean, certain aspects about the character seem better. I would hate to be "that" guy, but we need to wait and play to see, you never know, the 3 Pikmin he is provided might be way better than the 6 we got in Brawl.

If they carry over the mechanic from Project M where leaf-bud-flower they get progressively stronger than 3>6 imo.

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't think he's really that downgraded. I think he looks more versatile now, and not a Spam Bucket.
Ganon Vs Olimar in Brawl was a nightmare.

 

[Altais]

They've made re-releases of both Pikmin 1 and 2 for Wii. You should definitely invest since they are really great games!

[Looks it up on Google] Oh! I thought all the "New Play Control" games were Japan-only. Darn, if I knew they were released worldwide, I would have picked them up much sooner.

Anyhow, thanks for telling me this; I really had no idea they were released outside of Japan. I guess I will try to pick them up in June or July. Hopefully I can find them on Amazon.

 

[egaddmario]

It's one of those "wait and see" things. For all we know, the pikmin have more health to make up for you only having 3. And honestly, he was overpowered in Brawl. You could pikmin spam side b all day and when they got close you could pivot blue grab and throw them away, rinse repeat until you usmash. Not saying i did because i played more of an air-game Olimar (i liked his fair too much). I'm looking forward to trying out the new version before making a judgment. You can't argue his recovery looks much better now though!

 

[Luigi#1]

To me being able to plan what Pikmin you get is a buff. Also his recovery doesn't suck.

 

[9-bit the Platyhog]

Also his recovery doesn't suck.

His recovery only sucks in the fact that it only works well if you don't have that many Pikmin, although I will agree it's better than the last one.

 

[mimgrim]

So that dummies could even use him.

By dummies, I just mean the average joe. :L

I'm the only dummy that can use him lol.

 

[Critzilean]

Chances are, since they are lowering the number of Pikmin and making the order fixed, he'll get a new down B (rock Pikmin please, unless they showed the whistle and I missed it) and he'll probably be more effective without Pikmin (meaning some of his attacks will deal damage even without them, I think in Brawl only a few didn't require Pikmin)

 

[Flux0r]

"he wasn't that great in Brawl."

I don't know how much you have played as Olimar in Brawl but if you have ever looked at the tier list or played against a good Olimar player, you would most likely have a different opinion.

He is one of the few characters i hate playing against in Brawl. Why? Because he can outcamp every character in the game with his ridiculous Pikmin Throw that can rack up 30%-60% damage in a couple of seconds. His grab is quick, has insane range and his throws can KO in every direction. His attacks come out fast, has decent range and very high KO power if he gets a purple pikmin. (His up-smash comes out on frame 8 and can KO most characters at 90%.) His only weakness is his abysmal recovery. You may never end up touching a good Olimar player if you play a character with limited range.

He is simply a pain in the ass to play against.

He will most likely be a character that requires a more thoughtful strategy this time, due to his Pikmin decrease and a functioning recovery.

 

[EustaceDaBum]

I don't think anyone has talked about the speed, yet. I think one of the main reasons Olimar gained the winged pikmin is because of the speed. If the game can go at a faster pace, like that of Melee, then edge guarding would be quicker and Olimar would be no match once he was off the stage. However, Olimar now has the winged pikmin, and with it comes two options for recovery. He can either fly up to the ledge and grab on, then pluck pikmin once he gets up, or he will fly onto the stage where and pluck his pikmin there. Both have a pretty good reaction time, and seeing as that the winged pikmin have no form of attack, Olimar will be in quite a bit of danger when he uses this move.

 

[Majoraa]

Although I did main Olimar for a while, he wasn't that great in Brawl. So why did they downgrade him so much in SSB4? I was thinking about using him in SSB4, but after I saw his details, I'm not so sure.

im sorry what? "he wasn't that great in brawl" . have you seen the tier list lately? have you seen any result threads..

 

[Aguki90]

In reality in my experience. Olimar is HARD to use in the beggining but the more you play and use. Is very broken, especially is grab are very long and strong especially with the Blue Pikmin.

Is you have 6 Pikmin all trow in the oppenent can acumulate at least 80% or more damage.
Is broken and This nerf is welcome.

People say that in Smash 4. Olimar Air Attack are stronger but the landing lag.

 

[Z1GMA]

Although I did main Olimar for a while, he wasn't that great in Brawl. So why did they downgrade him so much in SSB4? I was thinking about using him in SSB4, but after I saw his details, I'm not so sure.

I'm not sure he's downgraded - he feels rebalanced, though, which is good.
Go play Ganon vs Olimar and you'll see what I mean.

 

[MASTERLINKX]

I REALLY hope this isn't final.

At 40seconds you'll see Olimar toss a White Pikmin at Megaman, and it does 2% damage rather than 6%.

I also noticed other Pikmin do 1% damage.

This is not okay.

 

[KERO]

God, watching Oli in Smash 4 at all is the most painful thing. It's like he's almost there; his movement and physics are exactly like Brawl, and then he grabs or does an Upsmash (or Pikmin Tosses), and you realize just how badly they've been nerfed, on top of the whole three Pikmin thing. At the very least, hopefully they make the Pikmin return to Oli faster or at least fix their terrible habit of self-separating from Oli after he's hit or just at random in the air. That was at least somewhat manageable with six Pikmin, but with three, losing one is going to be a much bigger detriment.

All that said, watching the video, it seems Oli did get a view buffs (as far as the build is confirmed). Red Fsmash killed Mega Man pretty cleanly at 110% from the center of BF, and Fsmash in general hasn't been nerfed (except for how Mii Gunner now outspaces it with his/her's...). It also seems that the Oli player was using Fair similarly to Marth in Brawl, meaning his Fair probably has better range now, too. Even though I still think he's going to be worse off than in Brawl, at the very least, I still feel that he's going to be a decently viable character in spite of his nerfs; the more I watch Smash 4 Oli, the more I think he's going to play differently from Brawl Oli in the manner of how he spaces and nets kills. At least his Up-B appears to auto-snap the ledge unlike Snake in Brawl.

I definitely agree, though. Pikmin Toss needs to be buffed in the final release. Otherwise, whites have no point, and Pikmin Toss would only be usable with purples (no reason to risk one or two thirds of your Pikmin for 5% >.>).

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I don't even get why he limit it to three. Why not four?

 

[zero sum]

yeah that video is pretty dire. hopefully the white pikmin get buffed or—if not—maybe the damage they do in pikmin toss increases with like… “status”? like they do more damage in their flower form, i mean, since i don't think we got to see anything other than leaf, white in that video. this seems unlikely since none of the other pikmin do more damage when they're in flower, but you never know, i guess.

(also sort of disappointed that—and correct me if i'm wrong—the pikmin have about the same amount of health this time around? not only did they nerf pikmin toss and the number of pikmin he can carry at one time, but the fact that they didn't even buff the pikmin's health is sort of disheartening)

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

Has anyone here actually tried using olimar with only 3 pikmin in brawl? It's nowhere near as big of a nerf as you guys think.

I don't even get why he limit it to three. Why not four?

Why would 4 make any more sense than 3? Why doesn't ZSS have 4 armor pieces in brawl? Why can diddy only have 2 bannanas out at once in brawl?

At the very least, hopefully they make the Pikmin return to Oli faster or at least fix their terrible habit of self-separating from Oli after he's hit or just at random in the air. That was at least somewhat manageable with six Pikmin, but with three, losing one is going to be a much bigger detriment.

While I too hope that they fix some of the pikmin glitches from brawl (ghost pikmin, pikmin getting stuck on certain parts of the stage, etc), what you're describing is basically what the whistle is for. Using the whistle after di'ing an attack that sent you a good distance across the stage should be second-nature.

 

[KERO]

Unfortunately, quite often, they'd just drop randomly while you're hanging out on the ledge, and if you chose that moment to get off the ledge, dealing with the opponent pressuring you and trying to get away, you wouldn't be able to really squeeze the whistle in. Also, I found that quite often, Pikmin would just drop out after getting hit by a weaker attack like MK's Dtilt near the ledge, and then he might grab you or something while all your Pikmin randomly fall to your death. Although, yes, I whistle after DIing and all that, the Pikmins' tendency to separate from Olimar at almost random would be inexcusable with only three Pikmin. Not to mention that, as of the E3 build, Olimar's Whistle lost its armor, making it an actual risk to use.

Also, having three Pikmin is absolutely terrible. It greatly limits Pikmin Toss (even though it's been nerfed, too), puts a greater emphasis on whistle when Oli could be doing a myriad more relevant things, and generally puts Oli in a near constant "danger zone." When playing Brawl, whenever I see Oli with three or fewer Pikmin, I know that I need to pluck more because those three can be gone in an instant. Unfortunately, Smash 4 seems to keep the Pikmins' low stamina from Brawl, so a good deal more time is going to spent plucking than should be. One or two Pikmin dying in Brawl was essentially no big deal. Hell, even having only three would be okay for a couple seconds, as long as I could get the opponent off my back and pluck more. Here, losing one Pikmin is disastrous; losing two could severely cripple you, and at that point, you often don't have the momentum to safely pluck more, but unlike in Brawl where you'd still have four to rely on still, you only have one. With that one, you are forced to commit to any attack that you make to get the opponent away. One of Oli's big strengths is his lack of commitment to any one move because of low cool-down with the exception of the Pikmin themselves. If Oli does several Fsmashes in a row, you can see the Pikmin pile on top of each other because the first is still in lag while Oli is free to act. However, the more reliant on each individual Pikmin you are, the more this lag becomes evident, and with Smash 4 forcing only three Pikmin on us, Oli is going to have to commit a lot more than in Brawl.

Basically: three Pikmin means less options, more commitment with each individual move, and being forced to pluck more often in uncomfortable situations. The fixed order is nice, though.

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

I now get more of what you saying about the pikmin leaving you; I thought you were only referring to how they would stay on the ground when you got sent flying. Also, whistling in brawl was still a risk. It only had a few frames of armor (only during the part where his head is tilted back, I believe). It therefore would just outright lose to multihit moves, as well. I'm not saying that the whistle hasn't been nerfed, but we just shouldn't think it's a huge difference since Olimar wasn't near-invincible using it brawl.

While I acknowledge that having three pikmin is strictly worse than having six, I don't think having three is 'absolutely terrible.' It definitely makes camping a little slower you since you can't continuously spam more pikmin while the others are coming back to you. However, keeping someone at bay with grabs and smashes or following up a combo in the air are both completely doable with only three pikmin. Finding time to repluck one or two lost pikmin is obviously not preferable, but it's not 'disastrous.' In brawl, you could pluck 6 pikmin in .8 seconds. Plucking is also completely lagless. Being one or two pikmin down is really not as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. It's the same logic that people had in the (very) beginning of brawl's metagame when killing pikmin was entertained as a valuable approach to beating olimar. Being one pikmin down in a lineup of three requires you to only stop camping for only a few frames to pluck one pikmin and get back to business. Against really heavy rushdown characters I can see where three pikmin maximum would get problematic, but again: nowhere near as bad as this forum seems to think.
No one seems to have brought up how this is also a different game with a whole new entity of olimar (for better or worse).

When Olimar got a three-pikmin maximum in Project M, no one seemed to bat an eyelash. That's because it's a different game and he was adapted to a less-campy environment. Maybe we're just seeing a similar thing in Smash 4. Basically, I agree that so far he appears to have been nerfed, and that three pikmin is worse than 6, but I think people are overreacting to the three-pikmin maximum. I think the overreaction stems from people assuming that the only successful way to play olimar in Smash 4 is to play him exactly how he was in Brawl.