Why the closed Debate Hall is a bad idea

[ballin4life]

It is already publicly visible. This was accomplished a few months ago, and has definitely improved activity. As I said earlier there are actually some PG'rs who joined solely to post in a thread that caught their eye.

This was true for me. However, I think it would have been much better if I could post in that specific thread immediately, rather than waiting for a while and losing what I wanted to say or watching the discussion go in a different direction.

I could certainly see someone saying "Oh that's a cool thread ... wait I can't post? oh well" and never bothering to figure it out. The same mechanism that allegedly keeps trolls and spammers out will also keep legitimate posters out.

I don't think it's a good idea to have your entire policy based on a few trolls and spammers when the legitimate posters are going to outnumber the trolls and spammers by far.

 

[Sucumbio]

It's interesting but you've kinda stumbled onto why making the PG public in the first place may have been a bit hasty. It's a lose-lose situation. Keep it Private, and passersby cannot see topics that may interest them, resulting in their trying to post, not being able to, and going "meh." Keep it public with restrictions, and passersby see a topic that interests them, and they get frustrated because they can't post in it, and do they go "meh." By making it totally public, you seemingly eliminate both issues, because people can just post. But then you have the issue of the PG losing its purpose. Unless....

We do make it more of a place for Smash Debaters to pick people out of the crowd to see if they'd like to become debaters themselves. This could work... I mean you're not wrong in your idea, it's just that originally (at least when I joined) the purpose of the Proving Ground was part of a greater purpose which is that of being a Smash Debater. It almost seems as if it'd be better for those posters that see a topic but can't immediately reply, to simply re-create the thread in the Pool Room, or something, because at least there, it's an open forum.

 

[th3kuzinator]

We do make it more of a place for Smash Debaters to pick people out of the crowd to see if they'd like to become debaters themselves. This could work... I mean you're not wrong in your idea, it's just that originally (at least when I joined) the purpose of the Proving Ground was part of a greater purpose which is that of being a Smash Debater. It almost seems as if it'd be better for those posters that see a topic but can't immediately reply, to simply re-create the thread in the Pool Room, or something, because at least there, it's an open forum.

Right. If DHers were not allowed (or at least heavily discouraged) to post in the PG, then opening up the PG for all to post would be fine. The DHers would just have to select the good posters from the PG, and the mods would clean up the bad posters. I like this idea.

But, as I have stated multiple time, DHers do post in the PG quite a bit. If viewing the current system as it is now, a closed PG seems logical.

I could certainly see someone saying "Oh that's a cool thread ... wait I can't post? oh well" and never bothering to figure it out. The same mechanism that allegedly keeps trolls and spammers out will also keep legitimate posters out.

I hope the majority of legitimate posters don't do this

Posters that lazy and unmotivated would probably not stick around long in the DH even if let in.

As for the PR and the current events section currently in place, do DHers even bother checking to see if there are any qualified debaters there? If not, I think it would be beneficial to at least ask a few intelligent posters if they would be interested in the PG/DH. Worth a shot.

 

[Dre89]

I find it funny that we spend as much time talking about reforming as we do actually debating.

By the way, I noticed the greatest inflations recently of PG applicants came when the homosexuality and God topics were hot, because they would always have the most recents posts, meaning they would be displayed on the home page.

I honestly think that's the key to increasing activity. That Teran guy is a good example. I'd enver seen him post here in my entire time as a PGer/DHer, and he came in to attack me in the homosexuality thread, then I never saw him again. Ok he didn't continue debating afterward, but plenty of people will, especially when they see the other topics.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I find it funny that we spend as much time talking about reforming as we do actually debating.

I find this amusing as well

By the way, I noticed the greatest inflations recently of PG applicants came when the homosexuality and God topics were hot, because they would always have the most recents posts, meaning they would be displayed on the home page.

Too bad I missed the homosexuality topic, I would have had a lot to say there. What happened to it anyway? Is is taboo to discuss?

I honestly think that's the key to increasing activity. That Teran guy is a good example. I'd enver seen him post here in my entire time as a PGer/DHer, and he came in to attack me in the homosexuality thread, then I never saw him again. Ok he didn't continue debating afterward, but plenty of people will, especially when they see the other topics.

The percentage thing again. The more people who become interested and active in the PGs, for whatever reason, the more chance of having active and legitimate DHers.

 

[Dre89]

Too bad I missed the homosexuality topic, I would have had a lot to say there. What happened to it anyway? Is is taboo to discuss?

Well it caused a lot of chaos. People found out I was an anti-homsoexual (in that I find homosexuality morally impermissable, not that I hate gay people), then people asked why, so I tried to defend my view, and it snowballed from there and I had like 8 people debating me at once. People who had never even posted before (and didn't post after) came into the thread simply to call me names and accuse me of things I don't do lol.

I guess there's a stereotype of all anti-homsexuals being funamentalists baptists who hate hate gay people personally, and think they're lesser people and want them burned at the stake or something like that.

You can read the PG homosexuality thread to get an idea. A DH one was made later but the PG one is where most of the action went. The DH one was made because like 6 DHers forgot it was the PG and just jumped in. Most debaters here will just debate what they feel tsrong on, and only that, which explains why so many people were debating me at once. Very few debaters, such as Mewter for example, debate for the sake of debating, and will actually take both sides in PG threads to stimulate discussion. Most people just to prove that their personal views are right to everyone else.

I just started a new thread in the PG, which concerns homosexuals, but itsn't about the morality of homosexuality itself, so hopefully it doesnt get too heated. If people say we shouldn't debate it, then it defeats the point of a DH in the first place. The whole point of the DH is to have an area where we can debate delicate issues intellignetly and in a civil manner.

 

[Teran]

I honestly think that's the key to increasing activity. That Teran guy is a good example. I'd enver seen him post here in my entire time as a PGer/DHer, and he came in to attack me in the homosexuality thread, then I never saw him again. Ok he didn't continue debating afterward, but plenty of people will, especially when they see the other topics.

It's cause I was old school.

 

[Dre89]

And now you're new school?

It's water under the bridge anyway. I copped a pretty funny verbal bashing from my atheist mates today so I'm used to it.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I guess there's a stereotype of all anti-homsexuals being funamentalists baptists who hate hate gay people personally, and think they're lesser people and want them burned at the stake or something like that.

Are you saying that people see anti-homosexuals as people with this list of qualities:

• Fundamentalist Baptists
• People who hate gays personally
• People who think gays are sub-human

Or are you saying, "People see anti-homosexuals as being fundamentalist baptists. Those people do in fact hate gay people personally, etc...."

Sorry, the wording isn't particularly clear, and I don't want to assume that you meant the latter (which would make you guilty of the same fallacy that your accusers were guilty of).

Sorry I don't have anything to contribute to the issue yet, but I have not read the entire topic. I don't want to suggest something that has been discussed (and I also want to see the benefits of the current system and compare them to the shortcomings). I'll be back with substance, though.

 

[Deleted member]

It's unbelievable how much I hope this turns into a homosexuality thread. Unfortunately there's a decent chance this post will ruin that.

 

[asianaussie]

i heard only homosexuals support the closed debate hall

The closed debate hall is pretty cool yo.

/offtopic

 

[KrazyGlue]

No, puu. You don't want the homosexuality thread to happen again. In antiquity, the homosexuality thread rampaged throughout the net, terrorizing all DHkind. We eventually captured it and chained it to a large boulder, casting it into the fiery pits of hell. The gate was sealed shut with dark magic. But its influence still remains in the land. Lo, it tries to consume your soul! If thou care for thou and thine, thou shalt reject this infernal demon-spawn! Mercy on a DH that must live in constant fear of the hellbeast that is THE HOMOSEXUALITY THREAD.

tl;dr version: Bad idea.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

The DH without the homosexualtiy thread:

The DH with it:

Tw:dr The homosexuality thread causes a riot.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Spoiler

Oh, so the homosexuality thread turns the debate hall black and white

But yeah, from what I have heard about it so far, it seems like the homosexuality thread is better off locked.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm actually laughing right now, quite a bit. I'm loving that the homosexuality thread is like Fight Club. The first rule of the homosexuality thread is that you don't talk about the homosexuality thread.

 

[Dre89]

When I started reading Krazy's post I started think of Ganondorf's execution scene in TP.

The thing is though, if you're going to stop controversial threads like that, I don't see what the point of a closed DH is. You don't have to read it if you don't want to.

 

[Deleted member]

The main issue with the homosexuality thread is that there was far too much activity I think. Much like a topic about god, nearly everybody has strong opinions, and nearly everybody knows that they are right. Plus it's a pretty touchy subject for a lot of people so things quickly develop into "how dare you say that", which is quite frankly pretty lame,. A proper version of the homosexuality thread I think would be really good, but chances are that isn't going to work out.

 

[Dre89]

The main issue with the homosexuality thread is that there was far too much activity I think. Much like a topic about god, nearly everybody has strong opinions, and nearly everybody knows that they are right. Plus it's a pretty touchy subject for a lot of people so things quickly develop into "how dare you say that", which is quite frankly pretty lame,. A proper version of the homosexuality thread I think would be really good, but chances are that isn't going to work out.

And that what separates the standard debaters from the best debaters.

This place isn't to preach your beliefs. It's not about convincing others of your opinion. It's to debate for the sake of debating, to learn and to be intellectually stimulated.

A standard debater only debates what he/she personally believes, and the how much they get worked up on it is proportional to how strong their feelings about the issue are. A standard debater forgets we're just here for debate's sake, and is outraged when someone holds a belief that opposes one they have strong feelings on. They'll try to prove their point, at the expense of crowding PG threads. They forget that their role in the PG is just to test PGers and stimulate PG activity.

The best debaters will debate both sides of a topic, and will restrict their activty in the PG to the point where they are merely stimulating the activity there, not being the focus. This is why I think Mewter was one of the best debaters (to the new-comers, Mewter was an atheist, so no I don't just support theists, in case you had that conception), because he would take both sides, and stimulated PG activity.

I'm not saying I'm one of the the better debaters, or that I'm above the standard criteria that I previously set in this post. But the homosexuality thread showed how immature we are collectively as a community, and that we have some learning to do.

 

[KrazyGlue]

The homosexuality thread was NOT banned because we wanted to restrict your opinion. You had like 200 posts in that thread, so it's not like you were gagged and hauled off. It was banned because, after 500+ posts, we had made no progress. It was the most circular debate ever. Furthermore, I'm actually waiting on you for the stuff you asked your professor about.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Note: Succumbio, I enjoyed that je ne sais quoi feeling you were attempting to articulate between senior-junior rivalry. I agree that there is a type of friction that exists that often inspires us to reach for more, if more is available. Especially when it appears to be in the hands of a Marxist bourgeoisie social class and a dynamic underdog mentality is sparked with the PG members playing the roles of the proletariat.

If DHers were only interested in gaining the Group Membership for the status increase and colored name tag, why would they bother even checking the PG for more candidates for the DH?

That's not what I stated. I said that PG members seem primarily concerned with garnering a pink name or rather the visible incentives of DH status. DH members tend to be focused on recruitment in order to improve the DH, rather than focus on an individual effort to increase traffic and activity.

Even if the DHers are too lazy to post and debate in the actual DH (which is ridiculous), the fact that they want to improve the DH by finding good posters in the PG shows they are not as superficial as you state.

Most individuals in the DH are college students or in the work force. Everyone is busy, period. When we get accepted into the DH, there are no further visible incentives. Finding good PG candidates is akin to the mentality of having many children in least developed African countries. In the 1950s the Total Fertility Rate (avg. # of babies per mother) for Kenya was 8, the families would have as many children as possible with the hope that at least one would become successful and aid the entire family. Unfortunately this does not necessarily work, as insufficient resources prevent children from developing their physical and mental facilities properly. In a similar vein, the question remains whether the DH section itself possesses adequate resources and provides incentives for DH members to be involved. Without purging, it becomes a question of provisions rather than reductions. In a society consumed by consumerism, providing enough for sustainability is barely enough.

This. Though there will inevitably be PGers just seeking status, it will be impossible to decipher their true intentions before letting them in to the DH. Simply from percentages, letting more thoughtful PGers into the DH will step up the activity in both rooms regardless if there are a few outliers who choose to abandon the DH altogether.

Few outliers? I guess you constitute a potential outlier (your activity seriously dropped after getting accepted). As does Namaste, spookyskeptic, RapturevVv, and a couple of others I could list off the top of my head whose activity is rare and minimal post-acceptance. As for their intentions, I'm sure they all have perfectly good intentions. However I don't care about their intentions and I don't care about their real lives. I don't care about what other subsections they are involved in, what exams they have to take, what major they are, or what job they are currently tackling as far as the Debate Hall goes, all I care about is their activity and performance in the Debate Hall. All I know is that once we give away the pink name and the clever little icon, activity plummets for the most accepted DH members. Honestly, how can I come to a different conclusion than the notion that people get their DH goody bag and then focus on other incentives? It's not bad to be selfish, it's actually common sense and self-preservation. You get what you need, then you get out. For most people, this amounts to a pink name and a debater status icon. Think it's ridiculous? The forum administrator of a VBulletin site made $94.32 the day after he opened a market for color user titles that people could purchase. A few outliers didn't generate $94.32 in a single day. That's the beauty of human avarice.

If someone has enough initiative to come to the debating hall, read the instructions for gaining access to the DH, apply for the proving grounds and debate thoughtfully and constructively in the PG for a reasonable amount of time, they probably have intentions of actually debating in the DB.

Probably. Would. Should. Could. These terms focus on what we want to happen, but not necessarily what does happen. Think about doing a large arts and crafts project in elementary or middle school such as a board game or diorama for a classic book. Once you put a mass amount of effort and complete the project and get the A from your English teacher, you hang up the board game or diorama for a couple of months and possibly years. You might move it to the attic when you get older and when a decade passes, you throw it out. Guess what, the board game and diorama weren't important, the classic book was the center piece to make the board game and diorama to come into fruition. Both of those resources are only symbols and not the reference source. In a similar manner, the debater status and icon serve as symbols, trophies, and marks of accomplishment that are valued over the reference source. Back to the statement in my previous post, the DH is the reference source that should be valued, but by most users is not in comparison to the aesthetic symbolism.

Applying for access to the PG takes two minutes. People who start the process with the mindset of just gaining status will usually either (a) develop a genuine interest for debating along the way or (b) lose interest and give up either scenario is in the best interest of the DH.

You can have a "genuine" interest in anything, the question remains whether you have enough of an interest to invest the time into writing, researching, and debating with other individuals. Given certain topics, this tends to be a large investment for many individuals that they can't quite afford. After gaining the goods, they no longer find the incentive to make that investment. Sure they are interested, but they are like an uncatalyzed biological reaction that won't take place any time soon due to the high amount of activation energy necessary to proceed with the action. In order to catalyze and produce results, incentives are needed in both the DH and the PG in order to make people take time out of their lives and to invest some of it into this section.