Why Super Smash Bros. Wii U/3DS Could Become the Most "Competitive" Smash Yet

[Ulti-Bman]

Getting sick and tired of the undefined term "competitive" being everywhere.

Don't use a term you can't define.

I defined the term in my own words in my original post.

 

[Conet]

If it becomes as competitive as melee I would be very happy, but I doubt it will with Sakurai developing it.

 

[Conet]

It will be more competitive than Brawl. Melee is a un-rivaled deep masterpiece so I highly doubt that this game will be as competitive.

 

[Sun & Moon]

If it becomes as competitive as melee I would be very happy, but I doubt it will with Sakurai developing it.

Sakurai also made Melee, you know...

He could make this game a melee 2.0, but he won't, and I think that's great. Because of this, smash 4 will be competitive while also be it own thing at the same time. I mean, Brawl, a game that was not desined to be a competitive game, got it own community, so I don't see why this game won't.

 

[smashmachine]

I wasn't necessarily referring to the single player being left out. It was more along the lines of those high level tournament players who want everyone else to only play the game the way they want to play it. Those same people who take pleasure out of mercilessly destroying new Smash players in matches just to get a higher ranking on the leaderboards.

A good example of game that's too competitive is Star Craft 2. Anyone who wants to try and play the game is immediately destroyed by the pro players and thus, they cannot enjoy the game they paid 60 bucks for. Hopefully, Smash 4 is not like this and can be enjoyed by everyone.

this applies to any game that is played competitively, ever
including Brawl

 

[Empyrean]

The problem is that SC players have to practically face a 90° steep learning curve, whereas the learning curve in Smash starts smooth, but spikes at some point. Smash gives people the choice to stay and have fun on the smooth parts; climbing the steep part is a personal choice and is by no means necessary.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The problem is that SC players have to practically face a 90° steep learning curve, whereas the learning curve in Smash starts smooth, but spikes at some point. Smash gives people the choice to stay and have fun on the smooth parts; climbing the steep part is a personal choice and is by no means necessary.

Exactly. Before I even started playing competitively I understood the basis of basic play; I knew how to do everything in the game, I even short hopped, everything else was just a slight alteration to what I already knew how to do:

I know how to shield + I know I can press A to grab while shielding = shield grab

I know how to jump + I know how to grab = jump cancel grab

I know how to dash left + I know how to dash right = dash dance

It's all pretty basic if you ask me.

 

[popsofctown]

I defined the term in my own words in my original post.

Equally vague and unquantifiable

 

[D-idara]

It will be more competitive than Brawl. Melee is a un-rivaled deep masterpiece so I highly doubt that this game will be as competitive.

Demonic worship much?

 

[R0Y]

It will be more competitive than Brawl. Melee is a un-rivaled deep masterpiece so I highly doubt that this game will be as competitive.

Come on son....

 

[Ulti-Bman]

Equally vague and unquantifiable

Arguably, but I do have bias, since it's my personal definition.

 

[DaDavid]

Equally vague and unquantifiable

I don't see how it is either of those things, except unquantifiable which while technically true is not really relevant in discussion of the QUALITIES of a game.

If you find it vague that's one thing, but given the context of the entire OP, it should serve as at least a fair starting definition for any conversation on the topic. Though if you'd be so kind, this seems like one of those complaints a person brings up when they've something better in mind, so could you offer your own definition for the benefit of the class?

 

[JediLink]

Come on son....

What's the problem? I don't necessarily think that Melee is unrivaled (there have been a lot of great fighting games over the years) but it is definitely deep, and it's definitely a masterpiece.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The original post confuses me.

Every single point is an "if then else".

Yes, if Smash 4 has a good sense of balance, is picked up and promoted by the Smash community, featured at a lot of tournaments, explored and developed at the highest levels of play and recognized by organizations like MLG to be a competitive game in its own right, it could very well be the most competitive Smash game ever.

...

And that has always been the case. This is very tautological. There really isn't much of a discussion here.

 

[mimgrim]

I still can't get over how the OP used a meme as an example for his opinion on tier lists. That was priceless.

 

[Pazzo.]

The way is see it: Melee was too hard for Casuals to move to Hardcore, and Brawl punished the Hardcores. Correct?

 

[Vkrm]

The way is see it: Melee was too hard for Casuals to move to Hardcore, and Brawl punished the Hardcores. Correct?

Lol that's what people say. I think it's nonsense. I don't believe we need to simplify the game to attract new players. Melee is by far, the most complex smash game as well as the most popular.

 

[mimgrim]

The way is see it: Melee was too hard for Casuals to move to Hardcore, and Brawl punished the Hardcores. Correct?

Not really.

A true "casual" wouldn't even know about the competitive scene, or care. Because they, simply put, are a casual and not a gamer.

Not competitive =/= casual. A casual really wouldn't know anything about the game outside of what they played of it. But if someone is on a site like Smashboards though? They ain't a casual. They are either a "gamer" or "hardcore gamer".

A casual really just won't care about the game as long as it has quantity to it of their fave things, in this case Nintendo stuff.

The whole "silent majority" thing Sakurai said is utter bullcrap because a casual will like it as long as it has a lot of content in terms of characters and stuff. Of course the Wii being targeted towards a different audience and making the game more centered around the audience the Wii is trying to appeal to has validness to it.

I also see soooo many misconception about the competitive community it isn't even funny. Like how we want other people to play the game like we do. That's wrong, Most of us don't care how you play the game or if you don't play competitively or not. But if you want to get into competitive play, then yeah, you are gonna have to play in a way we do to advance in the community. And other bull****.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't know about you but my housemates and I were able to enjoy Melee a hell-ton, going free for all on Pokefloats. The most advanced tech any of us knew was me SHFF'ing aerials with Marth + standard spacing and edgeguarding, but none of us took it too seriously and had a blast. Nothing compels a casual owner of the game who never intends to attend a tournament to know how to L-Cancel, or do anything fancy. You can turn on your items and spam Ganon Warlock Punches and have a blast, or you can go to Battlefield, or PS1, and have a no-items duel and take it serious. Or play for money.

The idea that Melee is somehow more 'hardcore' than Brawl just because it has certain techs is silly. The pool can be as deep as it wants, those who want to splash around in the shallow end can do so to their heart's content.

 

[PadWarrior]

I don't know about you but my housemates and I were able to enjoy Melee a hell-ton, going free for all on Pokefloats. The most advanced tech any of us knew was me SHFF'ing aerials with Marth + standard spacing and edgeguarding, but none of us took it too seriously and had a blast. Nothing compels a casual owner of the game who never intends to attend a tournament to know how to L-Cancel, or do anything fancy. You can turn on your items and spam Ganon Warlock Punches and have a blast, or you can go to Battlefield, or PS1, and have a no-items duel and take it serious. Or play for money.

The idea that Melee is somehow more 'hardcore' than Brawl just because it has certain techs is silly. The pool can be as deep as it wants, those who want to splash around in the shallow end can do so to their heart's content.

I wish I could give more likes to this comment.

 

[DaDavid]

Yup, it really does go both ways. People can't honestly say that Melee was somehow "too" hardcore for more casual players to enjoy, and by the same merit people are just as wrong to claim that somehow no "casual" can enjoy less than casual ways to play or that by merit of playing even slightly more seriously they automatically aren't casual players.

Me and my brothers enjoyed the hell out of Melee and practiced individually kind of a lot to get good enough at beating each other. We didn't know any advanced techs or anything, but we still wanted to not be total garbage at the game (at least among ourselves.) But that said we did usually play with items on, on whatever stage.

Of course I understand the fact that fans of the Melee metagame did not enjoy the fact that Brawl developed something entirely different, (and thus worse to some,) but those who took and continue to take Brawl very seriously would still say it has the same amount of competitive merit.

I guess the real idea behind this topic shouldn't be that this game might be the most competitive Smash in some quantitative way, but rather that it might have the tools to develop a meta game that the largest number of people find appealing.

 

[TryHardOliver]

Melee was as competitive as it gets. No beating Melee

 

[Phantom High]

even if it's not melee, I'm sure if the game rewards you for being offensive and give you more mobility, people will like it.

We've been playing Melee for 10+ years and we really do want to play the next Smash. It doesn't even have to cater to competitive people, just don't spite them.


then again...we're dealing with Sakurai...

 

[Raijinken]

I am looking forward to playing Smash4 at an above average level. Every Smash game has been unique and enjoyable (and competitive) in its own way, and I'm sure 4 will be no different.

 

[ferioku]

Melee was as competitive as it gets. No beating Melee

Are you being serious? You actually revived an old thread to prove a point that isn't even valid yet? Wow....

 

[Deleted member 245254]

While I mostly agree with you, I disagree that luck can't be an element of competitive gaming...

This extra credits video actually covers why quite nicely...

http://youtu.be/-9ZI9kMsvRQ

Just noticed post date. Oops.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

While I mostly agree with you, I disagree that luck can't be an element of competitive gaming...

This extra credits video actually covers why quite nicely...

http://youtu.be/-9ZI9kMsvRQ

Just noticed post date. Oops.

Luck is actually very important to a meta game especially one with as many variables as the smash series.
Look at pokemon. Regardless of whatever people say crits are important.
(also this is an agreement post i never claimed you said otherwise)

 

[Raijinken]

Luck is actually very important to a meta game especially one with as many variables as the smash series.
Look at pokemon. Regardless of whatever people say crits are important.
(also this is an agreement post i never claimed you said otherwise)

Pretty much this. A dose of luck of some sort is often helpful not for balance (typically), but for enjoyability and versatility. Especially if things have pseudo-random chances (Dota contains a lot of good examples, and the Project M implementation of Game&Watch's Judge is also a decent example) that can be memorized and taken advantage of, you can turn that "luck" into a calculated risk, making it a type of skill.

Just to elaborate, Judge cannot roll the previously two rolled numbers on any given roll, making it so that each use of the attack has a 1/7 chance of rolling the numbers you have not seen recently, and a 0% chance of rolling the last or next-to-last number. Project M improves the player's knowledge/control over this by showing a light over the number, indicating whether the next number will be even or odd. This can be taken advantage of by an observant player, as if your last two rolls were a 2 and a 4, and the 4 showed two dots over the card (indicating the next roll is even), you know that you are guaranteed either a 6 or an 8, both of which are safe moves (unlike 1, and some lower numbers, though their PM versions are far stronger in general than others). With this knowledge, you can much more safely choose to use Judge than going in completely blindly and risking a no-knockback 1 against an enemy.

Basically, if you pay enough attention, you can end up with a 1/3 chance of getting a 9 on your next swing, instead of a 1/7 chance.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pretty much this. A dose of luck of some sort is often helpful not for balance (typically), but for enjoyability and versatility. Especially if things have pseudo-random chances (Dota contains a lot of good examples, and the Project M implementation of Game&Watch's Judge is also a decent example) that can be memorized and taken advantage of, you can turn that "luck" into a calculated risk, making it a type of skill.

Just to elaborate, Judge cannot roll the previously two rolled numbers on any given roll, making it so that each use of the attack has a 1/7 chance of rolling the numbers you have not seen recently, and a 0% chance of rolling the last or next-to-last number. Project M improves the player's knowledge/control over this by showing a light over the number, indicating whether the next number will be even or odd. This can be taken advantage of by an observant player, as if your last two rolls were a 2 and a 4, and the 4 showed two dots over the card (indicating the next roll is even), you know that you are guaranteed either a 6 or an 8, both of which are safe moves (unlike 1, and some lower numbers, though their PM versions are far stronger in general than others). With this knowledge, you can much more safely choose to use Judge than going in completely blindly and risking a no-knockback 1 against an enemy.

Basically, if you pay enough attention, you can end up with a 1/3 chance of getting a 9 on your next swing, instead of a 1/7 chance.

Also in general i thing its exiting to just be like "WHAT! THAT JUST HAPPENED FOLKS" than to be like "The other dude just read him to well"

 

[Raijinken]

Also in general i thing its exiting to just be like "WHAT! THAT JUST HAPPENED FOLKS" than to be like "The other dude just read him to well"

A fair preference. I really like reads (M2K Falcon Punch at Zenith what) in high level play, because I think that's the only non-randomness-induced difference between two players at the peak of skill. Having some randomness certainly spices things up, but in my opinion, it's especially great if the player takes a calculated risk (like in a game of poker) and it plays out well, rather than simply running away and spamming, say, Turnips, until you get a stitch or a bob-omb. In other words, I like it when luck is a skill, because then the naysayers look foolish instead of justified.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

A fair preference. I really like reads (M2K Falcon Punch at Zenith what) in high level play, because I think that's the only non-randomness-induced difference between two players at the peak of skill. Having some randomness certainly spices things up, but in my opinion, it's especially great if the player takes a calculated risk (like in a game of poker) and it plays out well, rather than simply running away and spamming, say, Turnips, until you get a stitch or a bob-omb. In other words, I like it when luck is a skill, because then the naysayers look foolish instead of justified.

Oh well thats kinda what i ment lol
i play pokemon competitively and i wont sit there spamming metronome or magnitude. Xd

 

[The Slayer]

Are you being serious? You actually revived an old thread to prove a point that isn't even valid yet? Wow....

To be fair, it's either a new thread that's going to be locked in a few seconds or to a similar topic and may not be potentially locked. And I wouldn't say it's out of the question nor valid. If this game wants to succeed extremely well competitively, then it's going to have to do things Melee would never thought of, which is going to be a tall order aside from the obvious.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

To be fair, it's either a new thread that's going to be locked in a few seconds or to a similar topic and may not be potentially locked. And I wouldn't say it's out of the question nor valid. If this game wants to succeed extremely well competitively, then it's going to have to do things Melee would never thought of, which is going to be a tall order aside from the obvious.

Well ima one up this and say something brawl and melee did not do.
Balanced roster anyone. :D

 

[The Slayer]

Well ima one up this and say something brawl and melee did not do.
Balanced roster anyone. :D

More balanced? It's possible. Most balanced? Still debatable at this moment (inb4 the perfect imbalance video/ideology).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

More balanced? It's possible. Most balanced? Still debatable at this moment (inb4 the perfect imbalance video/ideology).

Brawl woulda been more balanced if not for metaknight since the rest of the cast was more viable in that meta than melee. too bad though can't refute whats there.