Why Super Smash Bros. Wii U/3DS Could Become the Most "Competitive" Smash Yet

[Ulti-Bman]

I posted an array of similar comments on a different thread, but I thought it might be interesting to post my thoughts more collectively here. This is why I think Super Smash Bros. Wii U/3DS has the potential to be even more hardcore-friendly than Melee.

Character Balance

If this game is more balanced than the other Smash games, then that would technically make this game the most competitive Smash game yet. It's undeniable that having fairer matchups between more characters makes the game less cheap, correct? Well, if Sakurai manages to keep the tier-list either in check or practically non-existent, then that solves the problem with broken characters all together. Again, this is merely wishful thinking, and we haven't seen anything suggesting character balance yet. However, if Sakurai's statements are to be keep truthful, characters will be able to not only be unique enough to support the various play styles of Smashers the world over, but will also be able to play accordingly with other fighters without Smashers having to adjust characters due to tiers. I believe that tier lists in general reduce the competitiveness of a game, because it limits options (FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!) and fails to let players express themselves to the fullest. However, my main point is the next category.

Mechanics

Obviously, Melee's mechanics are more competitive than Brawl's. However, what people tend to forget is that it's not because Melee's fast, but rather because Brawl is slow. This means that faster =/= more competitive. It also means that as long as a game REACHES a speed suitable for fighting, it's in the clear. The game will obviously not be a fast as Melee, but is that a bad thing? As long as it reaches a reasonable speed, it doesn't really matter. In fact, you can argue that Melee's speed is a little TOO fast. I personally find it difficult to implement nice air game in Melee, for example. If what Sakurai is saying is true, and if what is shown in Little Mac's trailer is to be taken seriously, then the speed seems to emphasize fluidity of techniques and easier controls. At least that's what I take from it. There also seems to be fixes to scrappy mechanics such as ledge controls, which now require more skill rather than luck and cheap tricks to handle. Even the new combo mechanic recently revealed is being received positively, assuming it removes infinite jabs like its speculated to.

Conclusion

I assume that a competitive fighting game is one that promotes skill and playability in a manner which best suits competition. I don't think a competitive game has to necessarily be "deep", but rather reliant on skill rather than luck-based or cheap mechanics, basically a "fair game" that sticks closest to answering the classic question "Who is better?". I feel this is something Melee succeeds in, but isn't done in the best manner possible. I feel that more options would allow for a fairer (and most importantly, more fun) experience necessary in any good fighting game, but only if these extra options fix problems. A common argument is that wavedashing has an affect on Smash competitiveness. I'm going to say something VERY controversial here.....I don't believe this argument. I'm sorry, but wavedashing is simply an expansion of dashing which is beneficial to spacing, advance teching, and tricking out the opponent. There was nothing wrong with spacing nor tech options in Melee to begin with, and only serves to unnecessarily buff characters. Don't get me wrong, wavedashing is great and I wouldn't mind its inclusion, it's just that it doesn't affect competitiveness either way. Also, things like l-canceling indicate scrappy mechanics and fails to "tighten" controls. In my opinion, tighter controls may weaken the layer of depth, but it adds focus to the more important aspects of the gameplay. The new ledge mechanics are an example of what I'm getting at. The new ledge mechanics provide more options to control your air game, while at the same time eliminates cheap tactics, and equalizes character opportunity. More of that is what will make the game competitive, in my opinion. People try to use Sakurai's quote of "catering to casual and hardcore fans" as the game not being as competitive as Melee.....but people forget that's exactly what Melee did as well.

What are you guys' thoughts? Am I being an idiot? Am I hitting the nail on the head here? Let's discuss below!

 

[Vkrm]

Don't hold your breath. If character balance is a deciding factor on how competitive a game is project m is the most competitive game in the series, and there is literally a zero % chance of smash 4 being in the same league.

 

[D-idara]

I feel like this game could be an amazing, accesible competitive experience...but it saddens me to know that there are some people that will turn their backs on the game as soon as they see it doesn't have Wavedash. I love the fact that balance's being considered as an important factor for this game because now we will get a rich selection of characters with no one being OP like Metaknight on Brawl or Fox/Marth on Melee. If it wasn't made obvious from seeing the Little Mac trailer, this game's trying to hit a perfect balance and trying to take the good bits from both games to create a better experience, Brawl did feel a little slow, but Melee felt stupidly and unnaturally fast, and it barely gave you time to react.

 

[Fuqua]

The inclusion of a proper online mode is gonna help this game a lot aswell when it comes to competitive play. Gameplay/balance wise im not gonna say anything untill i play the game myself, altough I do believe that you are oversimplifying things a bit.

Spoiler

I also wonder how long its gonna take till this thread is filled with a lot of very angry people saying very angry things

 

[PLATINUM7]

So far Smash 4 looks like it's heading that way. Sakurai has mentioned balancing a couple of times and gameplay does seem to be faster than Brawl. I guess what will eventually determine how competitive the game is is how many people play it competitively and how committed Sakurai and his team is to working on the game post release. While a dev team can test balance and mechanics, ultimately the many people who have bought the game and play it regularly will find more flaws than the comparitively small dev team. The dev team than needs to make use of this by taking in feedback and working on it. This is one area where so far Project M has exceeded the official Smash games. The Project M team are able to release an improved version later. Smash 4 will need patches if it is going to achieve the best possible outcome for comeptitive viability.

 

[Ulti-Bman]

The inclusion of a proper online mode is gonna help this game a lot aswell when it comes to competitive play. Gameplay/balance wise im not gonna say anything untill i play the game myself, altough I do believe that you are oversimplifying things a bit.

Spoiler

I also wonder how long its gonna take till this thread is filled with a lot of very angry people that say very angry things

Spoiler

I wonder the exact same thing. However, I did say I wanted to hear opinions.

 

[DaDavid]

Well, I've joined Smash Boards this year in an attempt to be in on the ground floor of competitive Smash 4 precisely because I think it's looking up my alley. Melee was too fast and twitchy for what my tastes were by the time I became aware of it, and Brawl never quite lived up to me and my friends preferences even on a "friendly competition" level, so yeah.

Smash 4 seems like it's finding the right speed (in between the two games), tweaking aspects of the games for the better (ledge-mechanics) and in general making character balance a higher priority (multiple comments on characters like Link, DK, Samus, and of course the interesting looking newcomers.)

 

[Hippopotasauce]

I feel like this game could be an amazing, accesible competitive experience...but it saddens me to know that there are some people that will turn their backs on the game as soon as they see it doesn't have Wavedash. I love the fact that balance's being considered as an important factor for this game because now we will get a rich selection of characters with no one being OP like Metaknight on Brawl or Fox/Marth on Melee. If it wasn't made obvious from seeing the Little Mac trailer, this game's trying to hit a perfect balance and trying to take the good bits from both games to create a better experience, Brawl did feel a little slow, but Melee felt stupidly and unnaturally fast, and it barely gave you time to react.

Smash 4 seems to be perfect for me but it won't have things that other games do and will have things that other games don't and that's enough to cause anyone to prefer another game over it. No reason to berate people for having a preference for something different.

 

[The Slayer]

I feel like this game could be an amazing, accesible competitive experience...but it saddens me to know that there are some people that will turn their backs on the game as soon as they see it doesn't have Wavedash. I love the fact that balance's being considered as an important factor for this game because now we will get a rich selection of characters with no one being OP like Metaknight on Brawl or Fox/Marth on Melee. If it wasn't made obvious from seeing the Little Mac trailer, this game's trying to hit a perfect balance and trying to take the good bits from both games to create a better experience, Brawl did feel a little slow, but Melee felt stupidly and unnaturally fast, and it barely gave you time to react.

Both games had their problems, and I wouldn't be surprised if SSB4 had balancing issues as well. Brawl opens the mistake window way too wide for defense while Melee had it nearly shut tight for both offense and defense. I can see the mistake window being open even more in SSB4, especially with newer characters being "unique." And I don't recall any pro player (or any serious player in general) would cry fowl for not having an exploit in future installments. Felt like you're grabbing for straws right there. Even if it's true, it's not really a strong point considering it was unintentionally in the game anyways (I know I didn't cared when I first started playing Brawl).

Also, you forgot Sheik, Jiggs, and Falco in your Melee example and Ice Climbers in Brawl's. Just sayian.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Better hope they find a way around all the wireless controllers at tournaments, otherwise its probably not going to be. Wiimote + Classic Controllers everywhere. Have fun syncing them all up.

 

[Uffe]

We all know that this game will be nothing like Melee. So anybody hoping that this game outdoes Melee is just setting themselves up for disappointment. There most likely won't be any wavedashing or L-Cancelling, and truth be told, even though I enjoyed pulling those things off, it isn't coming back. If the game is fast, has consecutive hits that you can actually add up, no grab release bull****, then I'll be fine with this game. I'm not going to put as much hype into it as I did with Brawl, because even though I didn't want to believe Brawl wasn't that great of a game, I had eventually gotten over the denial stage and just accepted that it wasn't a good game. That being said, I like Brawl for what it is, but it could have been better. So here's to hoping that Smash 4 is better.

 

[DaDavid]

We all know that this game will be nothing like Melee. So anybody hoping that this game outdoes Melee is just setting themselves up for disappointment. There most likely won't be any wavedashing or L-Cancelling, and truth be told, even though I enjoyed pulling those things off, it isn't coming back. If the game is fast, has consecutive hits that you can actually add up, no grab release bull****, then I'll be fine with this game. I'm not going to put as much hype into it as I did with Brawl, because even though I didn't want to believe Brawl wasn't that great of a game, I had eventually gotten over the denial stage and just accepted that it wasn't a good game. That being said, I like Brawl for what it is, but it could have been better. So here's to hoping that Smash 4 is better.

Well not everyone's enjoyment of this game as "better than Melee" is predicated on things like wavedashing and L-Cancelling coming back, so that's not really an issue for some... probably most actually. This game can easily outdo Melee in it's own right by simply having it's own enjoyable metagame.

 

[---]

Spoiler

I also wonder how long its gonna take till this thread is filled with a lot of very angry people saying very angry things

I have always wanted to lock a Melee Vs. Brawl thread...

Smash 4 has a lot of potential, and I would hope that it becomes it's own game. That's my take on it.

 

[PadWarrior]

To me this game is already better than Melee.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I hope this game turns about to be better than Melee.

 

[JediLink]

To me this game is already better than Melee.

I think it's a bit early to be saying things like that, sir. For all we know, SSB4 could have total ass controls, or input delay, or gamebreaking glitches, or something even worse than tripping.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Even if it's better than Melee, it sure won't be as fun.

 

[J1NG]

I believe that tier lists in general reduce the competitiveness of a game, because it limits options (FOX ONLY! FINAL DESTINATION!) and fails to let players express themselves to the fullest.

That's just silly. Tier lists do not force anyone to play any specific character(s). The players are the ones who reduce the competitiveness of a game by picking all the "high tier" characters without bothering to verify for themselves whether or not the list is accurate, either because they don't know enough about the game when they choose a character, or they're not confident enough in their abilities to warrant the kind of expression that I assume you're talking about, etc. etc.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

A tier list is literally only a list of the characters who are winning tournaments. That's it.

If Pichu started winning every National then he would be top tier . It's that simple.

 

[JediLink]

A tier list is literally only a list of the characters who are winning tournaments. That's it.

If Pichu started winning every National then he would be top tier. It's that simple.

Lolwut. I guess the tier discussion threads and the polls are just for fun then. That's not how it works at all.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Lolwut. I guess the tier discussion threads and the polls are just for fun then. That's not how it works at all.

Well how does it work then? Excuse my ignorance; I never really gave a **** about tiers in the first place.

 

[J1NG]

Lolwut. I guess the tier discussion threads and the polls are just for fun then. That's not how it works at all.

True. Tournament results do provide more evidence to back the data gathered by high level players, but the tier list is just supposed to be an accurate reflection of what is believed to be already in the game.
I don't put as much emphasis on the game as I do on the player in terms of competitive value because we have the power to change the competitiveness of a game by creating our own rules. I know some people don't think too fondly of it, but a game can become more competitive depending on how the players choose to play.

I personally thought it would have been interesting if Marvel vs Capcom 2 players messed around with total-value-based teams and character bans. For example, Sentinel, Mags, Storm, and Cable are all "tier 6" characters, while Roll is a "tier 0" character. As players are picking their team, the characters chosen have to add up to a given number(lets say 7). In that case, if you want to choose Sentinel, Mags, Storm, or Cable, you can. But, you must also choose Roll and a Tier 1 character, otherwise your team is considered tournament illegal. For people opting to choose Roll and two tier 1 characters, they would have 5 points left over, which they can use to ban entire tiers of characters(1 point for 1 tier). This would encourage players to learn other teams besides all the top tiers. I was even thinking that if Grand Finals came down to the last set, players could choose whatever team they want with no bans or values on any characters.
...
I guess ^ that's not really relevant to Smash at all. Haha.

 

[JediLink]

Well how does it work then? Excuse my ignorance; I never really gave a **** about tiers in the first place.

The most recent tier list was from a community vote.
http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113/#post-15487722

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Nah, I don't see it being as competitive as Melee. Sure more than brawl but not melee.

 

[guedes the brawler]

The inclusion of a proper online mode is gonna help this game a lot aswell when it comes to competitive play. Gameplay/balance wise im not gonna say anything untill i play the game myself, altough I do believe that you are oversimplifying things a bit.

Spoiler

I also wonder how long its gonna take till this thread is filled with a lot of very angry people saying very angry things

Spoiler

look at post number 3

 

[guedes the brawler]

We all know that this game will be nothing like Melee. So anybody hoping that this game outdoes Melee is just setting themselves up for disappointment. There most likely won't be any wavedashing or L-Cancelling, and truth be told, even though I enjoyed pulling those things off, it isn't coming back. If the game is fast, has consecutive hits that you can actually add up, no grab release bull****, then I'll be fine with this game. I'm not going to put as much hype into it as I did with Brawl, because even though I didn't want to believe Brawl wasn't that great of a game, I had eventually gotten over the denial stage and just accepted that it wasn't a good game. That being said, I like Brawl for what it is, but it could have been better. So here's to hoping that Smash 4 is better.

i was going to say "Ness main detected", but them i saw the cons below your avatar... well, those weren't exactly fair, right?

 

[PadWarrior]

I think it's a bit early to be saying things like that, sir. For all we know, SSB4 could have total *** controls, or input delay, or gamebreaking glitches, or something even worse than tripping.

Not for me it's not. I grew tired of Melee a while back and haven't picked up it back up in years.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

True. Tournament results do provide more evidence to back the data gathered by high level players, but the tier list is just supposed to be an accurate reflection of what is believed to be already in the game.
I don't put as much emphasis on the game as I do on the player in terms of competitive value because we have the power to change the competitiveness of a game by creating our own rules. I know some people don't think too fondly of it, but a game can become more competitive depending on how the players choose to play.

I personally thought it would have been interesting if Marvel vs Capcom 2 players messed around with total-value-based teams and character bans. For example, Sentinel, Mags, Storm, and Cable are all "tier 6" characters, while Roll is a "tier 0" character. As players are picking their team, the characters chosen have to add up to a given number(lets say 7). In that case, if you want to choose Sentinel, Mags, Storm, or Cable, you can. But, you must also choose Roll and a Tier 1 character, otherwise your team is considered tournament illegal. For people opting to choose Roll and two tier 1 characters, they would have 5 points left over, which they can use to ban entire tiers of characters(1 point for 1 tier). This would encourage players to learn other teams besides all the top tiers. I was even thinking that if Grand Finals came down to the last set, players could choose whatever team they want with no bans or values on any characters.
...
I guess ^ that's not really relevant to Smash at all. Haha.

That actually would be interesting, almost like CvS2.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

I'll hold my breath on all this until the game is actually out.
Although I hope smash 4 turns out great.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Project M is the most competitive smash yet, by far. It's literally better than Melee in almost every way. If sm4sh is more competitive than Project M, I will give a 24-hour long standing ovation.

 

[DaDavid]

That's just silly. Tier lists do not force anyone to play any specific character(s). The players are the ones who reduce the competitiveness of a game by picking all the "high tier" characters without bothering to verify for themselves whether or not the list is accurate, either because they don't know enough about the game when they choose a character, or they're not confident enough in their abilities to warrant the kind of expression that I assume you're talking about, etc. etc.

Given this, I kind of have to wonder what the actual "need" for a tier list is then. But I guess that's beside the point. I would be curious in hearing an answer though, so maybe PM me so as to not get off topic any further.

On topic though, I have to say my few attempts at entering the Melee scene turned me off quite from it quite a bit. It's great fun to watch, and Project M is probably my favorite of all games to watch at tourneys, but I'm still confident that based on what we've seen and heard this will be at least more fun for me to actually play on a competitive level, if not to watch.

Of course this is all fairly premature, but I have a decent gauge on what I do and don't enjoy so I feel confident enough in that statement.

 

[Renji64]

It is kinda hard for me to believe the man who added tripping can make a good game anymore. Brawl was a huge let down and the begging of the downward spiral of the series for me now new installments seem to taking away things more and more. I'm not expecting to be melee but idk if it will be more competive till i play it just feels like there nothing to be hyped about atm. Melee's speed was fine for me i love fast matches and brawl was pretty much some odd ballon fighter game with nintendo characters in it. I'm not getting my hopes up anymore. I just want combos, maybe l-canceling at the most.

 

[D-idara]

We all know that this game will be nothing like Melee. So anybody hoping that this game outdoes Melee is just setting themselves up for disappointment. There most likely won't be any wavedashing or L-Cancelling, and truth be told, even though I enjoyed pulling those things off, it isn't coming back. If the game is fast, has consecutive hits that you can actually add up, no grab release bull****, then I'll be fine with this game. I'm not going to put as much hype into it as I did with Brawl, because even though I didn't want to believe Brawl wasn't that great of a game, I had eventually gotten over the denial stage and just accepted that it wasn't a good game. That being said, I like Brawl for what it is, but it could have been better. So here's to hoping that Smash 4 is better.

First of all, this game being nothing like Melee doesn't prevent it from outdoing Melee...and Brawl IS a good game.

 

[guedes the brawler]

First of all, this game being nothing like Melee doesn't prevent it from outdoing Melee...and Brawl IS a good game.

not having some of melee's aspects will make it inferior to melee...in those aspects. Obviously it doesn't mean that it can't be good.


Combo ability is a nice example. L-cancelling helped that, kill L-canceling and less combos are possible. doesn't mean the game will have 0 combos or anything.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

First of all, this game being nothing like Melee doesn't prevent it from outdoing Melee...and Brawl IS a good game.

Brawl is a good game, but as far as competition it isn't that great.

Honestly, I prefer Melee as a casual game as well, he'll even Smash 64, it just feels like it's more fun. Oddly enough my gaming circle shares the same sentiments.

Either way, Smash 4 looks promising with its intent to make things balanced and interesting, and I do have hopes for it, but it won't be Melee as that game has made it's own mark in the franchise to the point where it has exceeded the dimensions of not only it's predecessor, but it's sequels.

 

[D-idara]

not having some of melee's aspects will make it inferior to melee...in those aspects. Obviously it doesn't mean that it can't be good.


Combo ability is a nice example. L-cancelling helped that, kill L-canceling and less combos are possible. doesn't mean the game will have 0 combos or anything.

Or reduce landing lag so that L-cancelling isn't necessary, there, fixed.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

L-canceling isn't the main issue rather it is whether of not hitstun can be cancelled in Brawl. Now if the game had a combination of minimized aerial lag, non-cancel able hit stun and aerial momentum we would have juggles for sure.

Personally I would like to see more ground oriented combos or something of the like. Being able to transition from air to ground is always entertaining.

 

[DaDavid]

not having some of melee's aspects will make it inferior to melee...in those aspects. .

This is the bit that set him to say what he did. I understand you're expressing your opinion on the matter, but sometimes phrases constructed as such make it seem more like you're imposing an objective truth on people who may disagree. Now I don't think he should've off as argumentative as he did, but the fact remains that what I've quoted is not objectively true.

 

[guedes the brawler]

This is the bit that set him to say what he did. I understand you're expressing your opinion on the matter, but sometimes phrases constructed as such make it seem more like you're imposing an objective truth on people who may disagree. Now I don't think he should've off as argumentative as he did, but the fact remains that what I've quoted is not objectively true.

I truly didn't mean it to sound like that.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Or reduce landing lag so that L-cancelling isn't necessary, there, fixed.

That would be a dream come true.

I like what L-cancelling allows you to do, but the fact that it's there in the first place...