Why So Dead?

[Phresh123]

Oh trust me they do try, Guess they must be frame perfect off the first initial grab in which many hasn't grasp.

 

[Hylian]

Not really, I could easily mash out of that lol. They need to get better at mashing, that shouldn't work until over 100%.

 

[Phresh123]

I have stream matches literally showing faces of people trying to mash out, lol. Saying and doing it are two different things kid.

 

[Hylian]

They must be REALLY bad at mashing then, because that is incredibly easy to mash out of. I was a very high level brawl IC player, and I've used that exact chaingrab and tested it extensively, it's worthless against anyone who knows how to mash. You can actually do it a lot faster than you are doing it as well, but you do it slowly making it easy to mash out of. I mean..it looks cool but it's a complete gimmick.

Edit: Kid? I've been in the smash scene since 2003, and would be very surprised if you were older than me. I also discovered the standing infinites in brawl with IC's, and have years of experience chaingrabbing with them. It's very easy to tell at a glance that the chaingrab you are doing is easily mashable.

 

[Phresh123]

Lol... ok kid I hear you.

 

[Hylian]

You are six years younger than me...I was going to tournaments while you were in elementary school.

I thought you were just doing those chaingrabs to be flashy, they don't actually work. I don't want other people who would like to actually optimize the character and learn useful things to think that is something they should learn.

 

[Phresh123]

Not my real age for one; I actually don't take this game as serious as you lmaooooooo so that "elementary" reference was weak. Also, If they don't work then why am I placing high at my events? High meaning top 5-7 with only IC's. Also these events have some high level players being that I live in NY. I know that Nana sometimes Upthrows, but that barely happens for me, and i'm assuming this won't be in the next patch is what you mean by "they don't work."

 

[Hylian]

What region are you in? What players do you play with? I mean it's clear your opponents don't know how to mash correctly. There are plenty of scenes where even the best player isn't that good, in which case placing wouldn't really be that impressive. I've played against plenty of people who don't mash well, and did silly stuff to them just because they weren't mashing. I also play with people who will break out of my grab at low % if I don't damn near frame perfect throw them after the grab(the game can read 1 mash input per frame, some people can mash close to 60 inputs a second, which basically instantly breaks a grab unless you throw them the frame after you grab them at low %'s). They don't work because you can mash out of them. You can do the mid-stage hand-offs, I'm specifically referring to you dashing past and then dashing back for the grab after the fthrow, which gives your opponent way too many mashing frames.

Of course I take the game seriously, I work on it. I think it's rather childish to demean someone because they are passionate about something.

 

[Phresh123]

First, I want to come off saying that I HOPE your not offended because I laughed at your years in the game, lmaooo. Im laughing because of how serious you took the initial word "kid" and told me a quick bakcground of your smash legacy in which I care nothing about.

Secondly, your points are correct in which Im wrong upon knowing that they can get out from the dashing frame. I see people mash still at that time however, but they don't get out. I don't understand what they're doing wrong at that very moment.

I'm from New York, and sometimes go to events in NJ. I have players Like Vanz, Frozen, Gallo, Gurukid, Darkblues, and more names I cant think of off the top, but I used to do well at the venue "Nebulous" if your familiar with it.

 

[Hylian]

First, I want to come off saying that I HOPE your not offended because I laughed at your years in the game, lmaooo. Im laughing because of how serious you took the initial word "kid" and told me a quick bakcground of your smash legacy in which I care nothing about.

Secondly, your points are correct in which Im wrong upon knowing that they cant get out from the dashing frame. I see people mash still at that time however, but they don't get out. I don't understand what they're doing wrong.

Im in New York, and sometimes go to events in NJ. I have players Like Vanz, Frozen, Gallo, Gurukid, Darkblues, and more names I cant think of off the top, but I used to do well at the venue "Nebulous" if your familiar with it.

That term just irks me, it writes off anything the person says as irrelevant as if they don't know what they are talking about because they are a "kid". Which...is something I'm far from as I'm older than most in the smash scene.

Have you beaten any of those players in tournament(I hope at least you've beaten the bowser )? I've played with a lot of them, only played any of them in doubles though, never singles. Actually I take that back I've played Vanz in singles but it was a long time ago when he was in ohio.

They just simply aren't mashing correctly. That's it lol. A lot of people don't know how to mash, or don't react fast enough to being grabbed to start mashing effectively. If I'm ever at a tournament you are at feel free to try that on me and I'll show you that mashing doesn't let you do the dash, dash back.

 

[Phresh123]

Yeah i beat 2 of them but I did get close with Vanz in Grand finals (Game 5 vs TL) a and yeah I beat the Bowser but thats when I didn't know this particular grab. (Was doing down throw to dair lol)

And no doubt, I appreciate the feedback and A lil friendly arragont trash talk doesn't hurt, even if it's not intentional. To end the discussion, its simply that they're not mashing fast enough. In essence I do run into you or a player with great mashing, what would be key ways to not allow you to mash out, or alternative grabs?

 

[Hylian]

Basically just do the throws without pausing. You can do the dash past, but you need to throw sooner, which means you don't have time to pause and turn around, so you need to pivot grab. This is harder though than just doing the throws normally, I would just continue to the edge. You just need to find someone who is good at mashing and then play them a bunch and you will quickly learn how fast you need to be with stuff. A lot of melee players are bad at mashing though, look for some good brawl players to test it against lol.

Edit: And that particular chaingrab has no bearing on your skill. You might be doing well because you are also a good player, and them not mashing well just lets you use that chaingrab.

 

[Phresh123]

Thanks alot b. So lets talk matchups, I lost A MM all because he used Samus. How can I beat out her projecttiles? I know Ice blocks clash but what other tools help?

 

[Hylian]

I think Fly/Wobbles are really good against samus, I would watch their melee videos for help. I personally have almost no samus experience so I would really just be making stuff up haha. I would imagine you need to shield a lot and wavedash OoS quickly to get in on her. Look out for dsmash and use lots of jabs to catch her in neutral. Kill her off the top with grabs.

 

[MisterNipNips]

Hey guys, i'm interested in picking up the ICs. I know their two most commonly used desyncs (Spotdodge/Roll desyncs). The issue is, i don't know how to do any of their grab shenanigans (other than down throw > Nana Forward smash). Any tips or info you guys can give to get me started on some chain grabs etc? I also need help on timing D-throw>Dair. Thanks guys!

 

[941]

Hey guys, i'm interested in picking up the ICs. I know their two most commonly used desyncs (Spotdodge/Roll desyncs). The issue is, i don't know how to do any of their grab shenanigans (other than down throw > Nana Forward smash). Any tips or info you guys can give to get me started on some chain grabs etc? I also need help on timing D-throw>Dair. Thanks guys!

A lot of ICs grab combos, including D-throw>D-air are pretty character dependent. If you're having trouble with D-throw>D-air, I suggest practicing on Captain Falcon, because his weight, fall speed, and tall hurtbox, make the timing fairly lenient. Another basic grab option is handoffs, so I would recommend practicing those. There are some other situational grab combos, but those are some of the most common.

 

[MisterNipNips]

A lot of ICs grab combos, including D-throw>D-air are pretty character dependent. If you're having trouble with D-throw>D-air, I suggest practicing on Captain Falcon, because his weight, fall speed, and tall hurtbox, make the timing fairly lenient. Another basic grab option is handoffs, so I would recommend practicing those. There are some other situational grab combos, but those are some of the most common.

Alright cool. Just for clarification, do i have to position nana a certain way before the Dair? Shorthop/Fullhop? etc?

 

[941]

You might have to move Nana forward slightly while doing the D-air, but you shouldn't have to do much if She is synced with you when you get the grab. You can full hop D-air on tall characters, but against some of the shorter ones short hopping is usually better.

 

[bubbaking]

Thanks alot b. So lets talk matchups, I lost A MM all because he used Samus. How can I beat out her projecttiles? I know Ice blocks clash but what other tools help?

Yo. It really was thanks to Samus, wasn't it?

I believe desynched Ice Blocks do pretty well. Can you not hit the missiles with standing moves (I have no idea if ICs can but other chars, like Marth, can just jab or tilt them). What Hylian said is pretty true. I believe ICs can punish ftilt on shield with WD OoS jab > grab. Baiting me into ftilts and punishing whiffed or blocked ones is pretty important. Also, if you manage to force me to misspace an ftilt, you can CC dsmash/grab me up to mid %'s. I think Wobbles believed the MU was even in Melee, but I really think Samus has the advantage here.

 

[proxibomb]

I'd really like to get into ICs for PM, but I'm afraid there's some kind of stupid bug (or multiple bugs) that has an effect on gameplay. Anyone know what the bug is exactly? I'm pretty sure people stay away from ICs because of this, and I'm afraid to admit this scare has also turned me off from ICs for awhile.

 

[941]

I'd really like to get into ICs for PM, but I'm afraid there's some kind of stupid bug (or multiple bugs) that has an effect on gameplay. Anyone know what the bug is exactly? I'm pretty sure people stay away from ICs because of this, and I'm afraid to admit this scare has also turned me off from ICs for awhile.

Turning around from a standing state causes them to slide, which causes a lot of spacing problems, as well as sliding off the stage. There are also some issues with Nana sometimes doing inputs when far away or simply recovering poorly. I would say stay away from ICs until 3.6 drops, but I have no idea when that will be, so I'll just suggest you play them for yourself and try other characters if you find yourself not enjoying ICs.

 

[Phresh123]

Yo. It really was thanks to Samus, wasn't it?

I believe desynched Ice Blocks do pretty well. Can you not hit the missiles with standing moves (I have no idea if ICs can but other chars, like Marth, can just jab or tilt them). What Hylian said is pretty true. I believe ICs can punish ftilt on shield with WD OoS jab > grab. Baiting me into ftilts and punishing whiffed or blocked ones is pretty important. Also, if you manage to force me to misspace an ftilt, you can CC dsmash/grab me up to mid %'s. I think Wobbles believed the MU was even in Melee, but I really think Samus has the advantage here.

Hey Bubba how'd you get here lmao! And yes I think Samus altered our set dramatically. However i'm not discrediting your win just because you went Samus, we had close games with all characters.

But yeah Samus is a complete counter, and I beat a Samus at For Glory yesterday. I was using lots of desync Iceblocks and yea they were clashing with projectiles. The thing about Samus I noticed is that the double missle cant help her move around more freely in the matchup. I'm not sure if Samus has a Zair like in Brawl, but that also helps in terms of spacing. Its really hard to get in.

Hope to see you soon so we can play again but this time go all Samus, Zard too free.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I saw your FG bracket. You had a lot of tough victories! Codi, Pig (assuming he went Yoshi), and Gallo are all great wins, and the two people you lost to were the VA players who were better than pretty much everyone there anyway. The only player I didn't recognize was ASD. Was he the Samus?

You're correct about double missiles. It helps Samus control the stage more easily, but she can't be very mobile while doing it. Samus' zair has a little more lag than Brawl, but it's still pretty low lag. One nice thing about it is that its range pairs nicely with missiles for a nifty 'double offensive'.

I'm also looking forward to our next meet-up. I'll definitely drop the Zard, but I may try ROB again. That was a really good comeback on your part, but I feel that the robot should be able to keep a solid advantage.

 

[Phresh123]

I've came so far since this post.

 

[Phresh123]

I know IC's isin't used as much, but the IC boards are so dead. I really wish people put more time into IC's as far as more active skype chats and videos. I've decided to use IC's fulltime in PM since they are untapped and have plenty potential.

Spot dodge desync to blizzard opens up alot of options especially grabs, and desyncing is a big reason why I plan to use IC's heavily. Lets bring some life onto the IC PM boards and mastermind on tools to use that can bring them up in sight, since many players sleep on our character.

Here's my skype as I would love to connect with others who feel the same: phresh123.

Man i've came so far since this post!! Almost 2 years ago and now im widely considered as the best IC's in PM.

This year will be a good one for IC's, hopefully we can bring the boards back to life! It's crazy to see how long ago this was, and how bad I was then, and how godly I am now.

The history of my legacy all starts from this one post, and I thank everyone who was apart of it; not only for me, but for the sake of all ice climber mains.

2015 was the start, and now 2017 will be the PUSH.

 

[941]

The title of this tread originally just referred to the ICs character discussion section, now it applies to PM as a whole. Crazy how far We've come.

 

[ilysm]

The title of this tread originally just referred to the ICs character discussion section, now it applies to PM as a whole. Crazy how far We've come.

...sorry?

 

[941]

Nice video! Doesn't change the fact that PM tournament entrants dropped by almost half between 2015 and 2016.

 

[ilysm]

I won't dispute that, but the quality of events, content, and play has spiked significantly, as I think has has general passion for the game within the community. We've moved to a point where we're no longer reliant on larger Melee tournaments to have our own events (I can't say for sure, but I suspect that this is one of the main reasons why out entrants dropped: we stopped getting featured at Melee majors. Another reason is likely the combination of memes and genuine negativity that indicate to people that nobody plays the game, which isn't true). So our strict number of entrants has dropped, but there's almost no reason to believe that those numbers can't grow back, and even less that the core community dedicated to the game right now will also fall away and allow the game to die.

 

[941]

I'm not trying to knock the game or the community, but I really don't see much potential for growth of a game that isn't able to use the largest streaming platform, or be featured at major events with other smash/fighting games.

 

[ilysm]

I get that, you're cool. I'm just trying to say that "limited current growth relative to Melee or Smash 4" =/= "dead game" or "dying game". We'll grow as big as we can and then stick around for as long as possible. Also, we have yet to see that our presence on Hitbox and our needing to rely on organizing our own majors is going to be as limiting as people say long-term. I mean, obviously it might be, but we don't know that for sure yet. Calling the game dead based on the current state of things I feel is super extrapolating, especially since it's objectively not dead right now.