Why is there a stage edge?

[iharfor]

What I mean exactly, why have stages that you can fall off of when it's not a real threat. In all the fights I have seen, the players died b/c they get blasted beyond the boundaries. There is no way to survive that except perhaps DIing, but the prospect of getting close to the edge only to fall to your death is not a likely one.

What happened to the days where you get blasted a ways out, but somehow there might still be a way to survive, you just had to perform. Now, if you do survive the major blast by DIing, your so high up that you'd be an idiot to not be able to get back to the stage. So, its either you survive a major blast and its easy to get back, or you don't DI right and there's no possible way you survive. That sounds so boring.

Considering that the game play is now more aerial, it should be easier to get back to the edge, but placing no boundaries would have been better. That way, you still had a CHANCE to make it back rather than a sure thing, or an impossibility.

 

[pirkid]

I don't fully understand.

You want the edges to be moved outward?

 

[NDUDE]

More strategy and gameplay options. Edgehopping FTW.

 

[Takumaru]

You haven't watched enough videos then. I've seen a good number of kills off the bottom. Granted it's not the same number we'd see in a melee fight but come on, the games only 5 days old.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Um, spike much?

 

[iharfor]

I don't fully understand.

You want the edges to be moved outward?[/QUOTE

You know how you can get blasted off the stage, you hear an exploding sound and your dead?

I'm talking about those boundaries that dictate how far you go out before you die, those should be removed. The edge of the stage should stay the same. That way you die b/c you fall, not b/c you get blasted to hell.

Otherwise, the game is just like street fighter in which you reach a certain percentage and you die on the next hit almost certainly.

 

[Percon]

The Rob and Pit would own everyone.

 

[iharfor]

Um, spike much?

Yeah there is still the possibility of the spike, but thats a fraction of kills compared to the blasting beyond the boundaries type deaths. And yeah, I understand that its only 5 days old, but I don't see that changing much no matter how long its out.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

Wouldn't be Super Smash without Edges

 

[SeriousWB]

Yea, watch more videos then, I have seen quite a few of those so called rare deaths.

 

[iharfor]

Wouldn't be Super Smash without Edges

Well its not super smash if the edges aren't much of a threat. It's the boundaries you have to worry about.

 

[Metallic_Igloo]

I kind of agree, the side boundaries should be moved out further, or maybe just the sides of the actual stages should be closer, maybe you could make a short custom one.

 

[iharfor]

I kind of agree, the side boundaries should be moved out further, or maybe just the sides of the actual stages should be closer, maybe you could make a short custom one.

Nice, I forgot about that option. That maybe the way to go. Hopefully, you can not use boundaries.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

The Rob and Pit would own everyone.

Word, "ROB for top tier!" is the true purpose of this thread

 

[Metallic_Igloo]

Word, "ROB for top tier!" is the true purpose of this thread

But will ROB have very good aerials, it's hard to picture.

 

[iharfor]

Yea, watch more videos then, I have seen quite a few of those so called rare deaths.

Count the boundary deaths if you don't believe me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0JofFN6lbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN-ZyfN16Dc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqn-rukQvKI&feature=related

I picked this at random.

 

[Metallic_Igloo]

only one on bottom on first vid

 

[SeriousWB]

Two Pit matches... Yea, I feel like quoting my own post. You could atleast get some videos of chars with less recovery abilites, I mean come on man you're trying to prove a point here.



A lot of people are still playing this like Melee also, I think players need to chase a short distance off the stage to ensure such a kill. Alas, we shall see how the metagame develops.

 

[iharfor]

only one on bottom on first vid

3 out of 4 deaths were due to out of bounds type deaths. On the first one.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Brawl's Super DI has sort of killed edgeguarding. If you don't get blasted out of the stage boundary, you can almost always DI back and get ridiculously close to the stage without even using your second jump, let along your Up+B. Combine this with half the cast have broken up+B's and the new Auto Sweetspot Magnet Edge and... you get the idea. It's not that no one has yet figured out the best way to edgeguard-- it's more like even the OPPORTUNITY to edgeguard rarely presents itself, and when it does the auto sweetspot means you're likely not going to have much of a chance to do anything anyway. People *imagining* that this means you're going to have to chase your opponents off the edge more need to watch more vids-- DI+magnet edge is broken.

 

[iharfor]

Two Pit matches... Yea, I feel like quoting my own post. You could atleast get some videos of chars with less recovery abilites, I mean come on man you're trying to prove a point here.



A lot of people are still playing this like Melee also, I think players need to chase a short distance off the stage to ensure such a kill. Alas, we shall see how the metagame develops.

Like I said, these were chosen at random. Lots of pit matches for some reason.

 

[iharfor]

Brawl's Super DI has sort of killed edgeguarding. If you don't get blasted out of the stage boundary, you can almost always DI back and get ridiculously close to the stage without even using your second jump, let along your Up+B. Combine this with half the cast have broken up+B's and the new Auto Sweetspot Magnet Edge and... you get the idea. It's not that no one has yet figured out the best way to edgeguard-- it's more like even the OPPORTUNITY to edgeguard rarely presents itself, and when it does the auto sweetspot means you're likely not going to have much of a chance to do anything anyway. People *imagining* that this means you're going to have to chase your opponents off the edge more need to watch more vids-- DI+magnet edge is broken.

Thank you, someone gets it.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Yeah, pretty much.

That's not to say that Melee-style edgeguards can never happen-- they do occasionally. I've seen some Marths use their dtilt to reasonable effect, as it seems one of the few moves in the game capable of intercepting an opponent as they approach a magnet edge. Not even close to good enough to ever KO someone, but at least it can stall them off the edge for a moment. So please, citing instance in a specific video where Captain Falcon gets a spike isn't much good. Watch the videos. The edge is just ridiculous.

As far as intercepting with aerials goes, it's the same deal. If your aerial isn't strong enough to blast them off the edge, DI plus recovery plus game floatiness will almost always win out. You basically never see a fair or bair push someone so far from the edge that they can't recover and fall off the bottom.

Before someone gets mad I'm not condemning Brawl or trying to say the game is shallow-- I don't have it yet and remain cautiously optimistic about its future. I just don't think the edge game will be a big part of that future, based on what I've seen.

 

[LavisFiend]

OOOOH. I see what you are saying now.

Do away with the pyrotechnics? I don't agree.

That is half the satisfaction from smashing the hell out of your oppenent.

 

[lildude]

if the side boundaries were moved, characters with multiple jumps (like kirby and jigglypuff) would be MUCH harder to kill i imagine... its probably much better that there are boundaries in the game

 

[DRaGZ]

I think edgeguarding in Brawl isn't going to be about remaining on the ground and standing near the ledge while pulling off a few moves and then edgehogging. It's going to be a lot more about chasing the opponent as he flies away and finishing the job you started. That's badass imo.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I think edgeguarding in Brawl isn't going to be about remaining on the ground and standing near the ledge while pulling off a few moves and then edgehogging. It's going to be a lot more about chasing the opponent as he flies away and finishing the job you started. That's badass imo.

Thanks for reading the thread before you post. It's not like the last page hasn't been discussion about this exact topic. I'm glad you think that, that would be pretty cool. Now do me a favor and go scour through the dozens of Brawl videos out there and show me an instance where someone chases their opponent off the edge, or better yet, even has the opportunity to do so. Brawl's crazy DI means that your opponent is back within reach of the edge within 1 second of being knocked off. Even if your opponent lingers voluntarily off the side of the level and you DO get the chance to chase him off (and this video I'm watching just reminded me), the new airdodge means it's super easy to dodge through your opponent and continue on your way back to the stage.

Edit: Here's a good example: watch this video at around 3:12.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35CkSItW6E&eurl=http://www.wifiwars.com/

It's one of the few instances in the match where it looks like Marth might have an opportunity for a real edgeguard. He leaps out to fair Snake AND... Snake flashes for a moment and passes right through him and straight to the edge. It's like the entire game engine was designed around taking the most interesting and unique aspect of Smash -- the edge game -- and making it nonexistent.

 

[kai123]

People should try chasing their oponents with the new reverse jump.

 

[twdfx]

Gotta agree.

The super floaty physics mean that in most scenarios it is way too easy to recover. The solution would be to move the death boundaries even farther, or better yet, design the game without the *********** that is the floatiness.

 

[HeroXL]

Agreed as well, it seems to be at this point way too easy to recover.

 

[Losnar]

Several characters can go UNDER the stages and switch sides. This is gonna be cool if you're one of those characters, but bogus when you have to kill one.

 

[staindgrey]

Eh, if you didn't have the edges it would give the light, high-jumping characters an enormous advantage. Think about it: With Bowser, for instance, you don't want to fall too low because getting back up is a biotch, but you can't really get knocked far enough to the side to die because you're so massively huge- unless you well past the 200% mark. Now, if you were, say, the new Toon Link, you'd be able to recover upwards so much more easily than Bowser, but you could get thrown far off to the side possibly before you even hit triple digits in your damage.

The sides are what make the game fair for all character sizes, and I think it works really well. Plus, if there was no edge, some characters, regardless of their weight, would have an enormous advantage due to either multiple jumps (Kirby) or insanely long ^B recoveries (Zelda). The side borders simply add a different dimension to Smash Bros., one that you're probably taking for granted because, I'm just guessing here, you mainly use lighter characters. Am I right?

 

[WastingPenguins]

I think this thread kind of opened my eyes to the real problem with Brawl. The problem is NOT that it's lacking "advanced" techs, either new or derived from Melee. The problem is that the normal, bread n' butter Smash stuff, has been dumbed down so much. After sitting here and watching a ton more videos specifically examining the off-edge play, I'm convinced that if Brawl doesn't take off competitively, the new DI will be by far the single biggest factor.

To sum it up: Edgeguarding from the platform is nearly impossible in most cases. A lot of people are saying "chase off the platform and intercept instead", but Brawl simply does not allow this. You can smash your opponent off the edge as much as you want, but unless you KO them off the stage boundary they will be back in 1 second 99% of the time. You just don't even have time to THINK about chasing them because thanks to DI they're back so fast, or else they've got such a broken recovery that chasing them would be pointless, or else they can EASILY airdodge through any aerial attack with no consequences, or else their up+b will simply eat through any weak fair, bair or dair you attempt to smack them with, or else you DO hit them with an aerial and it doesn't matter anyway because recoveries are so broken.

 

[Chaosblade77]

I have to disagree with the topic starter. While the edge game seems to be totally gone/different, removing boundary, or even moving it further out, would give such a huge advantage to multi-jump characters and those with insane jumps like R.O.B. Heavy characters would again be useless because of the generally bad recoveries from such great distances and faster falls speeds, while light and floaty characters, especially those with multiple jumps, could get back without a problem.

It's less a problem now because anyone can get back, but in my opinion it's better for all of the characters to have this advantage than a few characters have a huge advantage while others are at a huge disadvantage. I bet once the game has more time an edge game will be reinvited. If not... well, it's moving further toward the party game side.

It's most definitely a balance issue, but you could make a stage on the max size and only put a few pieces in the middle to fight on and then have farther edges, I suppose. Not sure how efficiently it would work.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Wouldn't more walkoff stages = Dedede chaingrabs to death? Or was that confirmed to be escapable?

 

[WastingPenguins]

Wouldn't more walkoff stages = Dedede chaingrabs to death? Or was that confirmed to be escapable?

Yes, it was.

 

[SuperLink9]

Spiking in as essential skill for many characters

Some stages don't have pits, if you don't like it, use them, but edgehopping and spiking/meteor smashing are essential parts of play

 

[VanillaMummy]

ITT:

People ***** about a game they don't actually own yet and are making assumptions on its depth based on videos they are watching. I have yet to hear anyone that actually has proof they own the game complain about its depth.

Watch Gimpyfish's tourny videos and tell me this game doesn't look like a blast to play competivitly AND for fun. That's the way Smash is supposed to be.

 

[twdfx]

I've played the game for the last 2 days and have this, among other complaints.

Sure it's fun, but I'd go as far as saying the gameplay sucks compared to melee. Not that it's different, it's just not as good.

 

[iharfor]

I have to disagree with the topic starter. While the edge game seems to be totally gone/different, removing boundary, or even moving it further out, would give such a huge advantage to multi-jump characters and those with insane jumps like R.O.B. Heavy characters would again be useless because of the generally bad recoveries from such great distances and faster falls speeds, while light and floaty characters, especially those with multiple jumps, could get back without a problem.

It's less a problem now because anyone can get back, but in my opinion it's better for all of the characters to have this advantage than a few characters have a huge advantage while others are at a huge disadvantage. I bet once the game has more time an edge game will be reinvited. If not... well, it's moving further toward the party game side.

It's most definitely a balance issue, but you could make a stage on the max size and only put a few pieces in the middle to fight on and then have farther edges, I suppose. Not sure how efficiently it would work.

I don't think they would, just decrease their weight and they will be shot out proportionally to someone that is heavy. So, lets say pit gets hit out 20ft. where bowser gets hit 5 ft out from the stage. Those distances for each char represent the same difficulty lvl for both to get back to the stage.