Why is it that most of the Smash community are so sure of a 3 final 3rd party inclusion?

[CyberWolfBia]

If you disagree with someone please say so in a respectable manner.

No problem, and as I said, I stopped here,... I'm not these that like to act aggressively for nothing; --peace. 0/

=P

 

[Opossum]

The problem you have is the same one I alluded to in my post. The logic you and other people are using is as so: "Adding Pac-Man is the same as adding Mario or any other Nintendo character, so they the same rules that apply to Nintendo characters and third party characters are the same and there are no differences in regards to inclusion." The problem is that is not true.

I know full well that the circumstances are different. Saying that adding Pac-Man is like adding Mario is ludicrous. He's a third party character. That doesn't, however, mean that they're not worth the inclusion.

Here is what Sakurai has actually said about third party characters

So," I continued, "what's the third-party character you'd most like to see?"P

Sakurai laughed.P

"I'm really sorry," he said through a translator. "If I were to answer that question, I'd get in a lot of trouble in a lot of different ways, so I can't answer. But I think I can say generally that there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters. You can sort of think of Mega Man as being the special case."P

Smash Bros. can still be considered as an all-star collection of Nintendo characters. Just like with Mega Man or any other third-party character, it would have to be a very special situation.

My preliminary standpoint on this quote is that he can't say who his "favorite" is due to something similar to an NDA, and that any additional 3rd Party would be a "Special Case." I believe Pac-Man's a pretty special case.

If we were to look at these quotes at face value without any other analysis, we can say "Megaman would probably be only of the only third party characters." At the very least, we can surmise that "four to five," is out of the question (wouldn't be very special then would it).

That's not what I'd say at all. Making "four or five" out of the question is just guesswork and completely arbitrary.

The only thing vague about these statements is what he means by "special situation." At the very least, he means it got to be something really important. Sonic was the most requested character worldwide during Brawl. Megaman likely was too. So them being the most popular characters worldwide was a pretty "special situation." Being iconic likely wont cut it. A lot of characters are iconic in their own right. What about Simon Belmont? Or Bomberman? Scrooge McDuck is iconic to video games in his own right. Or Professor Layton. His games put Level-5 on the map and all did very well (it should also be noted that this character was a popular request before the game was shown). It means that there probably needs to be something more pertinent to Smash. And I'm sure that someone is going to say "But what about Snake!?" Based on what Kojima has said, Snake probably wont come back. We can even infer that Sakurai hasn't even talked to him.

"I'm not working on that game, but I don't think it's likely [that Snake will return]. If Mr. Sakurai is watching this, hopefully we see Snake.

The Snake thing's a separate issue entirely, but all I'll say on it is that what he said is likely to comply with the obvious NDA requirements.

I agree that iconicness alone won't cut it. However, Pac-Man has quite a bit more going for him. He takes iconicness to another level entirely, and the fact that Namco's working on the game means Sakurai has the company in his mind at least. It can't hurt that he's Miyamoto's favorite video game character, either. After all, even if it was jokingly, Sakurai did say that Miyamoto generally gets the things he requests, as he has quite the respect for him.

On Pac-man being in: Yes, he has moves, but not any that differentiate himself from the rest of the cast, which is a requirement of Sakurai's requirements (see below).

In terms of his criteria for characters to be included in the game, Sakurai said that to merit inclusion, characters had to stand out, and do something that only that character can do.

Consider his moves. Eating? This is covered by Kirby (his key feature as well), Wario, Yoshi, and King Dedede. Rev Roll? This is a rip off of Sonic and Jigglypuff. Butt Bounce? Yoshi and Bowser. Throwing pellets? Be the same as any projectile and even Villager has a slingshot. Outside of an interesting final smash, the character brings nothing new. Characters like Sonic, Villager, Rosalina, Little Mac, Diddy Kong, Pokemon Trainer, King Dedede, and Pit all bring new and unique abilities that other characters can't do. This is an all-star fighting game so it would not be hard to pull out characters that are very different. But Pac-Man offers so little and he's a character a lot of people don't care for. This is a reason he is not popular. Megaman is interesting. He has a lot of weapons and gadgets he can use. This is why people wanted him. Heck, people gave millions of dollars to the creator because they want more of him. With Pac-Man, people generally ignore the games. I'm sure most gamers don't even know the newest Pac-Man game even came out. For how Japan sees characters, I'll refers you to Chronobound's observations (I'll post the relevant part below) and this recent article.

Saying that he's outright "unpopular" is putting a biased spin on it. And you're cherry-picking a bit by calling him not unique. The point is, he offers quite a bit that many characters don't do all at once. Not to mention he can get a nice momentum gimmick of sorts due to his physiology. Add in some of the powers from the new game, powers referencing the old arcade game (Pac-Dot Chain, giving him Wario's Chomp while Wario gets his Shoulder Bash, use of the Power Pellet, etc), and add the 8-Bit version as a Final Smash, and I think he's set. He can easily be unique in his own right.

A lot of the stuff on Tekken and Tales is intelligible because there is a lot of personal insults and flame wars involved. A lot of Japanese forum memes that I don't get understand gets thrown around and a lot of childishness.

Reminds me a lot about GameFAQs.

Pac-Man I don't see come up much. When he does, its basically, "Pac-Man seems to be the most appropriate Namco character they could use for Smash Bros., don't you think?"

Lots of Tales characters names get thrown around, but there is no character they can agree on, and they all flame war each other for supporting a certain character or not having an opinion regarding a certain Tales game.

I don't see how this is against him, really. They claim he's appropriate, after all. If anything, it's a reason to not add a Tales character. Not coming up often is better than not coming up at all, like how Ridley, Isaac, and Little Mac are (or were, in Mac's case) over there.

To close, this isn't about an ideology or being a "Nintendo Purist." Super Smash Brothers is a "Nintendo All-Star fighting game." This comes directly from the game's creator. It is unreasonable to expect a lot of third party characters and they aren't going to be added because they are "iconic." I could go on about how Megaman is popular because Nintendo fans see him as just as much a Nintendo character as Mario, but this post has gone on for long enough. The real issue is that people let their dreams get in the way of reality. This is why some fans become zealots for characters like Skull Kid, Ashely, and, yes, even Pac-Man. They want this roster with lots of different third party characters that they like and don't see that, at the end of the day, Smash is a celebration of Nintendo. We should consider ourselves lucky because, up until 6 years ago, there were no third party characters in Smash. And you have Kojima to thank for that.

I think the big issue here is that we disagree on what is considered "a lot" of 3rd Parties. In Brawl, we had 2/39 characters be 3rd Parties (roughly 5% of the roster). Let's say that Smash 4 includes 50 characters for the sake of the argument. If four were included, that would be 4/50, which is still only 8% of the roster, only a 3% increase. It's still under 10%, as well. When 10% or more are third parties, that's when I think we have an overabundance. Just my opinion.

 

[SmashChu]

@Opposom: The post made is not a lot of separate ideas. They are all interlinks to make one coherent thought. Things you said in your reply were contradicted by post I made lower. It's also clear you ignored what Sakurai actually said. What I gave you was reasons supported by facts. You gave me an opinion peice and tried to twist Sakurai's saying into what you want to believe.

I'll be willing to give you a decent response if you are willing to do the same. That means:
1)You don't break up the original post. You make one coherent thought.
2)You actually need to respond to Sakurai's quotes, not dance around them. You ignore the fact he specifically said "there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters." It wasn't about his opinion on Pac-Man.
3)At least have one quote or source (or at least attempt to).

You might say "Smashchu, why are you bring so mean." It's not being mean as much as it is expecting some level of quality. I'd be happy to continue this discussion when you make a response that warrants my time. Until then, there is no use in continuing (and for the record, I'd rather you make a really good response than this just ending now).

 

[Opossum]

@Opposom: The post made is not a lot of separate ideas. They are all interlinks to make one coherent thought. Things you said in your reply were contradicted by post I made lower. It's also clear you ignored what Sakurai actually said. What I gave you was reasons supported by facts. You gave me an opinion peice and tried to twist Sakurai's saying into what you want to believe.

I'll be willing to give you a decent response if you are willing to do the same. That means:
1)You don't break up the original post. You make one coherent thought.
2)You actually need to respond to Sakurai's quotes, not dance around them. You ignore the fact he specifically said "there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters." It wasn't about his opinion on Pac-Man.
3)At least have one quote or source (or at least attempt to).

You might say "Smashchu, why are you bring so mean." It's not being mean as much as it is expecting some level of quality. I'd be happy to continue this discussion when you make a response that warrants my time. Until then, there is no use in continuing (and for the record, I'd rather you make a really good response than this just ending now).

I'm sorry, but your standards are, quite frankly, ludicrous. If anyone here is dancing around the issue, it's you, as instead of reading through what I post, you critique the format. And you're one to talk about the "level of quality" when you can't even correctly spell the name of the person you're addressing.

The reason it's broken up is because you make different points in each sentence, honestly. I did not ignore that Sakurai quote. I pointed out that four is not a lot of 3rd party characters in a roster of 50.

And sorry if you can only post "one coherent thought" at a time, but I like to think I can do more than that. Your "standards" are quite frankly ridiculous and dip into ad hominem to boot. I made my point, so I await your rebuttal.

 

[Zhadgon]

@Opposom: The post made is not a lot of separate ideas. They are all interlinks to make one coherent thought. Things you said in your reply were contradicted by post I made lower. It's also clear you ignored what Sakurai actually said. What I gave you was reasons supported by facts. You gave me an opinion peice and tried to twist Sakurai's saying into what you want to believe.

I'll be willing to give you a decent response if you are willing to do the same. That means:
1)You don't break up the original post. You make one coherent thought.
2)You actually need to respond to Sakurai's quotes, not dance around them. You ignore the fact he specifically said "there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters." It wasn't about his opinion on Pac-Man.
3)At least have one quote or source (or at least attempt to).

You might say "Smashchu, why are you bring so mean." It's not being mean as much as it is expecting some level of quality. I'd be happy to continue this discussion when you make a response that warrants my time. Until then, there is no use in continuing (and for the record, I'd rather you make a really good response than this just ending now).

The thing for both of you and the main problem with third parties is how much is a lot, could it mean only 2? 3? 4? even 5? and for me thats the question, if Sakurai would have be more specific of the subject we could conclude a reasonable response and everyone will be happy and will not be discussed even further but the statement is so vague that for me and I think I can talk for everyone else is a little subjective of interpretation, so please don't state your reasoning as the only truth and the only objective one because in all fairness is by now and forever until Sakurai says something more to the matter all subject to personal view, maybe you are right and maybe Opossum is right or maybe other person is right but for now I think this matter can not be concluded with a set response.
.n_n.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

@Opposom: The post made is not a lot of separate ideas. They are all interlinks to make one coherent thought. Things you said in your reply were contradicted by post I made lower. It's also clear you ignored what Sakurai actually said. What I gave you was reasons supported by facts. You gave me an opinion peice and tried to twist Sakurai's saying into what you want to believe.

I'll be willing to give you a decent response if you are willing to do the same. That means:
1)You don't break up the original post. You make one coherent thought.
2)You actually need to respond to Sakurai's quotes, not dance around them. You ignore the fact he specifically said "there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters." It wasn't about his opinion on Pac-Man.
3)At least have one quote or source (or at least attempt to).

You might say "Smashchu, why are you bring so mean." It's not being mean as much as it is expecting some level of quality. I'd be happy to continue this discussion when you make a response that warrants my time. Until then, there is no use in continuing (and for the record, I'd rather you make a really good response than this just ending now).

Dude just settle down he made some really good points as have you but there is no way to tell who is right or wrong until the game is released there's no need to fire shots at people just for their opinions just settle down bro.

 

[lobotheduck21]

If that is how you see it, sure, but every reference I've ever seen to Pac-Man has also been to his limbless form (including in recent Namco games). The only times I've seen limbed Pac-Man in motion were that arcade version of Mario Kart and a game trailer some Pac-Man fan linked on this site.

Limbed Pac-Man is not like Sonic, Mario or Link. You see them everywhere. Limbed Pac-Man, discounting what we see from the folks here, is simply not in the public eye at all. He's not referenced, he's not on T-shirts, he's not advertised and his games aren't even on shelves. I didn't even realise he existed until a couple of years ago.

I guess I can't speak for everybody objectively but I do very much doubt the casual Smash player will have any experience with the guy at all and, for a third party who is included solely to sell more copies of the game, that is a terrible terrible thing.

minus the fact pac-man has had that design for a decade

he even has a tv show with that design, but with teeth

I don't see how we won't get a 3rd 3rd party (can it be the chick from 3rd birthday so we can make her the trifecta character ) there's Namco and Konami left, both have crossed over with nintendo

 

[ryuu seika]

The obvious reason to expect a third third party is that Smash is a crossover series that, while in possession of its own fanbase, primarily sells itself with its all-star character roster.

To keep going, it must keep adding to this and, at a time when most of the well known first parties are already in, it's the non-Nintendo characters who have most impact potential.

 

[Bauske]

The obvious reason to expect a third third party is that Smash is a crossover series that, while in possession of its own fanbase, primarily sells itself with its all-star character roster.

To keep going, it must keep adding to this and, at a time when most of the well known first parties are already in, it's the non-Nintendo characters who have most impact potential.

Incredibly well said.

 

[Johnknight1]

The obvious reason to expect a third third party is that Smash is a crossover series that, while in possession of its own fanbase, primarily sells itself with its all-star character roster.

To keep going, it must keep adding to this and, at a time when most of the well known first parties are already in, it's the non-Nintendo characters who have most impact potential.

Let us say that we get the following Nintendo-owned character in Smash 4/5:
-Every Nintendo owned character in Brawl
-All the Smash WiiU/3DS Nintendo owned newcomers currently confirmed (Villager, WFT, Rosalina, and Little Mac)
-Mewtwo (maybe Roy, too)
-K. Rool
-Dixie Kong
-Miis
-Ridley
-Takamaru
-Shulk

How many major Nintendo characters are left=??? We got no All-Stars left (unless more are made). You could argue a certain Pokémon (namely Zoroark) is important, or that characters like Isaac or Excite Biker were big in their day, but largely, it is just leftover parts (regardless of how good of playable characters you or I think they would be).

Yeah, no offense to the newcomers thus far, most of us like all of them, but the biggest pop for a newcomer was definitely for Mega Man. I think only K. Rool or Ridley among the Nintendo-owned characters could come close, and even then, Pac-Man would create ten times more buzz than either of them if he was confirmed.

Oh, and the buzz for Mega Man might not be the biggest buzz for a character reveal. Sonic probably got the biggest Smash WiiU/3DS pop after getting the biggest pop for a smash character ever when he was confirmed in Brawl.

So yes, this time around, 3rd party characters on top of Sonic and Mega Man are going to happen. Sakurai was positive about having Sonic and Snake in Brawl, saying they added something fresh to the roster, and seeing as how no one is like Snake, it would be stupid to cut him. The Pac-Man/Miis/Little Mac leak is probably legit to an extent.

Guys, we're gonna grow in 3rd party characters. Get over it. It's not like many of these minor characters are that good of ideas anyways.

Seriously, we got a thread full of people whining about Waluigi being an Assist Trophy. Is that really an alternative you would rather have than being a BAMF by playing Simon Belmont with a whip and just going crazy on someone, or being a psycho as Bayonetta, or with Bomberman bombing things with bombs and... more bombs=???

 

[Zhadgon]

Let us say that we get the following Nintendo-owned character in Smash 4/5:
-Every Nintendo owned character in Brawl
-All the Smash WiiU/3DS Nintendo owned newcomers currently confirmed (Villager, WFT, Rosalina, and Little Mac)
-Mewtwo (maybe Roy, too)
-K. Rool
-Dixie Kong
-Miis
-Ridley
-Takamaru
-Shulk

How many major Nintendo characters are left=??? We got no All-Stars left (unless more are made). You could argue a certain Pokémon (namely Zoroark) is important, or that characters like Isaac or Excite Biker were big in their day, but largely, it is just leftover parts (regardless of how good of playable characters you or I think they would be).

Yeah, no offense to the newcomers thus far, most of us like all of them, but the biggest pop for a newcomer was definitely for Mega Man. I think only K. Rool or Ridley among the Nintendo-owned characters could come close, and even then, Pac-Man would create ten times more buzz than either of them if he was confirmed.

Oh, and the buzz for Mega Man might not be the biggest buzz for a character reveal. Sonic probably got the biggest Smash WiiU/3DS pop after getting the biggest pop for a smash character ever when he was confirmed in Brawl.

So yes, this time around, 3rd party characters on top of Sonic and Mega Man are going to happen. Sakurai was positive about having Sonic and Snake in Brawl, saying they added something fresh to the roster, and seeing as how no one is like Snake, it would be stupid to cut him. The Pac-Man/Miis/Little Mac leak is probably legit to an extent.

Guys, we're gonna grow in 3rd party characters. Get over it. It's not like many of these minor characters are that good of ideas anyways.

Seriously, we got a thread full of people whining about Waluigi being an Assist Trophy. Is that really an alternative you would rather have than being a BAMF by playing Simon Belmont with a whip and just going crazy on someone, or being a psycho as Bayonetta, or with Bomberman bombing things with bombs and... more bombs=???

Or getting Crono and his godlike music and levels? How about some 4th wall break with Travis Touchdown and his cheeky tongue? Maybe just maybe a real ninja with an arsenal that can compare with Link or how about our favorite limbless hero that can fly and hates rabbits.

.n_n.

 

[DaDavid]

@Opposom: The post made is not a lot of separate ideas. They are all interlinks to make one coherent thought. Things you said in your reply were contradicted by post I made lower. It's also clear you ignored what Sakurai actually said. What I gave you was reasons supported by facts. You gave me an opinion peice and tried to twist Sakurai's saying into what you want to believe.

I'll be willing to give you a decent response if you are willing to do the same. That means:
1)You don't break up the original post. You make one coherent thought.
2)You actually need to respond to Sakurai's quotes, not dance around them. You ignore the fact he specifically said "there won't be a trend of adding a lot of third-party characters." It wasn't about his opinion on Pac-Man.
3)At least have one quote or source (or at least attempt to).

You might say "Smashchu, why are you bring so mean." It's not being mean as much as it is expecting some level of quality. I'd be happy to continue this discussion when you make a response that warrants my time. Until then, there is no use in continuing (and for the record, I'd rather you make a really good response than this just ending now).

At the risk of setting you off again, I'd just like to point out that he made very good points and even responded reasonably to your complaint post (here quoted) and then YOU proceeded to let the discussion die. So congrats on thoroughly outing yourself as a "listen to ME" type of poster.

 

[Johnknight1]

Or getting Crono and his godlike music and levels?

My... my dreams...

How about some 4th wall break with Travis Touchdown and his cheeky tongue?

What... why bring up this awesome idea=??? WE BANNED THOSE HERE!!!!

Maybe just maybe a real ninja with an arsenal that can compare with Link or how about our favorite limbless hero that can fly and hates rabbits.

.n_n.

RYU!?!?

STOP LOVING THE AWESOME THINGS I LOVE AND MAKING ME WANT THEM MORE EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THEY WON'T HAPPEN!!!!

 

[Zhadgon]

My... my dreams...

What... why bring up this awesome idea=??? WE BANNED THOSE HERE!!!!

RYU!?!?

STOP LOVING THE AWESOME THINGS I LOVE AND MAKING ME WANT THEM MORE EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THEY WON'T HAPPEN!!!!

I know right and you did get the Ryu reference.
.n_n.

 

[Johnknight1]

I know right and you did get the Ryu reference.
.n_n.

Man, if we're talking dreams, like Sheik vs. Ryu is a dream match up. A traditional ninja in Ryu vs. a magic/clan based one in Sheik.

Similarly, Simon Belmont vs. Samus/Zero Suit Samus is another dream match up that needs to happen one day in some game. Also Simon vs. Ridley.

Sonic vs. Mega Man is like a culmination of their comic series (which I haven't ever read and probably never will), as well as the ultimate "Battle of the Blues".

A Soul Caliber character vs. Link would be another great rematch from SC2, as well as say Nightmare/Siegfried from SC vs. Ganondorf.

There are a heck of a lot of dream match ups like this involving 3rd party characters not previously playable in smash, but not as many as there among Nintendo-owned characters, at least among ones that hasn't already happened in smash.

Plus, the magnitude of matches like that, as well as Mario vs. Pac-Man, or Pac-Man vs. Sonic, Mega Man vs. Snake, or Snake vs. Sonic vs. Mega Man vs. Pac-Man, is so much bigger than any potential match up to most fans than any match ups of potential Nintendo-owned newcomers that aren't K. Rool, and maybe Ridley and Palutena (but those match ups I mentioned in this paragraph earlier are a lot bigger than all of those still).

 

[Zhadgon]

Man, if we're talking dreams, like Sheik vs. Ryu is a dream match up. A traditional ninja in Ryu vs. a magic/clan based one in Sheik.

Similarly, Simon Belmont vs. Samus/Zero Suit Samus is another dream match up that needs to happen one day in some game. Also Simon vs. Ridley.

Sonic vs. Mega Man is like a culmination of their comic series (which I haven't ever read and probably never will), as well as the ultimate "Battle of the Blues".

A Soul Caliber character vs. Link would be another great rematch from SC2, as well as say Nightmare/Siegfried from SC vs. Ganondorf.

There are a heck of a lot of dream match ups like this involving 3rd party characters not previously playable in smash, but not as many as there among Nintendo-owned characters, at least among ones that hasn't already happened in smash.

Plus, the magnitude of matches like that, as well as Mario vs. Pac-Man, or Pac-Man vs. Sonic, Mega Man vs. Snake, or Snake vs. Sonic vs. Mega Man vs. Pac-Man, is so much bigger than any potential match up to most fans than any match ups of potential Nintendo-owned newcomers that aren't K. Rool, and maybe Ridley and Palutena (but those match ups I mentioned in this paragraph earlier are a lot bigger than all of those still).

I think Nintendo is the only company capable of making these match ups in a videogame with the All-Stars of each company, for one, most companies don´t like to lend their characters to other companies, second it cost a lot of money, third why include the competition in your videogame (where Nintendo still competes with these companies, they are hardware company first where they get better results if more companies creates projects for their system), fourth the Pedigree of Smash and its quality is so high that most companies know if they lend their character it will not be misused in any form and five every company knows when Sakurai calls you to get your character in Smash so he/she/it can fight Mario the most Iconic character and most powerful Star of videogames it means you are in the pinnacle of the industry and is honor.

Imagine a game where Nintendo, Sega, Capcom, Konami, Namco-Bandai, Tecmo - Koei and Square-Enix are together with their respective stars, it will mean the dream of many people and only Nintendo could provide that experience.

Nintendo: Mario
Sega: Sonic
Capcom: Megaman
Konami: Snake
Namco - Bandai: Pac-Man
Tecmo - Koei: Ryu Hayabusa
Square - Enix: Crono - Black Mage - Slime - Chocobo - Moogle or Lara Croft

Honorable mention;
Atlus: Jack Frost
Grasshopper Manufacture: Travis Touchdown
Hudson Soft: Bomberman
Level - 5: Professor Layton
Platinum Games: Bayonetta
Konami: Simon Belmont
Ubisoft: Rayman, Prince of Persia
Activision: Crash Bandicoot, Spyro.

.n_n.

 

[Bauske]

At the risk of setting you off again, I'd just like to point out that he made very good points and even responded reasonably to your complaint post (here quoted) and then YOU proceeded to let the discussion die. So congrats on thoroughly outing yourself as a "listen to ME" type of poster.

I think this is primarily why I made a decision to not respond to him. He asks for an intelligent discussion, you provide a reasonable, intelligent response, and he shrugs it off, instead stating your points don't matter and his do. It's very frustrating.

Let us say that we get the following Nintendo-owned character in Smash 4/5:
-Every Nintendo owned character in Brawl
-All the Smash WiiU/3DS Nintendo owned newcomers currently confirmed (Villager, WFT, Rosalina, and Little Mac)
-Mewtwo (maybe Roy, too)
-K. Rool
-Dixie Kong
-Miis
-Ridley
-Takamaru
-Shulk

How many major Nintendo characters are left=??? We got no All-Stars left (unless more are made). You could argue a certain Pokémon (namely Zoroark) is important, or that characters like Isaac or Excite Biker were big in their day, but largely, it is just leftover parts (regardless of how good of playable characters you or I think they would be).

Yeah, no offense to the newcomers thus far, most of us like all of them, but the biggest pop for a newcomer was definitely for Mega Man. I think only K. Rool or Ridley among the Nintendo-owned characters could come close, and even then, Pac-Man would create ten times more buzz than either of them if he was confirmed.

Oh, and the buzz for Mega Man might not be the biggest buzz for a character reveal. Sonic probably got the biggest Smash WiiU/3DS pop after getting the biggest pop for a smash character ever when he was confirmed in Brawl.

So yes, this time around, 3rd party characters on top of Sonic and Mega Man are going to happen. Sakurai was positive about having Sonic and Snake in Brawl, saying they added something fresh to the roster, and seeing as how no one is like Snake, it would be stupid to cut him. The Pac-Man/Miis/Little Mac leak is probably legit to an extent.

Guys, we're gonna grow in 3rd party characters. Get over it. It's not like many of these minor characters are that good of ideas anyways.

Seriously, we got a thread full of people whining about Waluigi being an Assist Trophy. Is that really an alternative you would rather have than being a BAMF by playing Simon Belmont with a whip and just going crazy on someone, or being a psycho as Bayonetta, or with Bomberman bombing things with bombs and... more bombs=???

I think you hit the nail on the head. There are still a few good Nintendo characters that can be added, but other than them, the rest seem like filler characters or a choice you would go "really? that guy?" Third party characters give us some of the biggest all-star names in gaming and allow them to fight against our favorite Nintendo characters that are already present. I don't want this game to be like PlayStation All-Stars. It needs to remain 90% Nintendo, but as @ Opossum stated, even four characters is only 8-10% of the roster size. Third-party characters give us something fresh and unique, and put them in a dream game you'll never see anywhere else.

 

[SureNsync]

I really didn't expect this thread to get so many replies. Every reply is appreciated. I'm convinced. I didn't realize it until Wariofan1 explained it. Mega Man and Sonic do have a Nintendo aura and Snake and Pac-Man are rather an exception. I still may not want more 3rd party characters to appear but I can at least try to relate to why most of the Smash community consider or want another 3rd party inclusion and why it should happen.

If everyone who posted want to continue discussing, enjoy your debates.

 

[Deleted member]

There is a reason I don't see Snake returning is:
1. Namco is helping Sakurai to make the game, and despite I hating the idea and Pacman's new design, he's likely since he's their mascot
2. A Platinum rep would be fitting with the latest Wonderful 101 and the upcoming Bayoneta 2
3. If any of these get in, adding one more 4th party char would be stretching things off with more deserving 1st party chars that couldn't make into Brawl

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

There is a reason I don't see Snake returning is:
1. Namco is helping Sakurai to make the game, and despite I hating the idea and Pacman's new design, he's likely since he's their mascot
2. A Platinum rep would be fitting with the latest Wonderful 101 and the upcoming Bayoneta 2
3. If any of these get in, adding one more 4th party char would be stretching things off with more deserving 1st party chars that couldn't make into Brawl

I agree with your statements but we can have Pac-Man and Snake.
I think Bayonetta is a great idea but while I would love to see her it doesn't seem likely Firstly, She uses Guns almost entirely (Shouldn't be a problem IMHO but it is ) Secondly, she is a little over sexualized I mean her Final Smash would have to be her hair summon and that would leave almost entirely clothe-less.
And Wonderful 101 is first party so one of them is more likely.
After taking all that under consideration Snake has a good chance to come back.
And don't take Kojima's word for snake not being likely Kojima is a known Troll.

 

[Ben Holt]

Because 3rd party characters generate the most hype.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think Nintendo is the only company capable of making these match ups in a videogame with the All-Stars of each company,

Agreed.

for one, most companies don´t like to lend their characters to other companies,

I disagree. 3rd party companies have had all kinds of crossovers. Every major 3rd party company has had a crossover in one way or another recently; it's just a fact.

Also, PlayStation All-Stars got like 8 3rd party characters, and everyone and their grandmother knew that game was gonna be what it is (a trashy cash-in).

second it cost a lot of money,

Depends the arrangement. I imagine having a character in Soul Caliber was cheap (sans Link and the Star Wars characters) because it is free promotion. It really is the big names that cost money. Sonic, Mario, Link, Pac-Man... those are the names that cost money.

It also depends on the series. Soul Caliber does an okay job at promoting another series. Not a great job, but good enough to be something of free advertisement. Smash does a fantastic job, because it is just a giant walking advertisement for other franchises. Nearly every smasher I know has gotten into a series because of smash in some way. Meanwhile, having Altair from Assassin's Creeds robe in MGS IV probably did nothing for promoting. Likely neither did various misc. characters from the MvC series playable or as cameo characters.

third why include the competition in your videogame (where Nintendo still competes with these companies, they are hardware company first where they get better results if more companies creates projects for their system),

If Nintendo considers 3rd party companies their "competition", then that, by definition, that makes them a 3rd party company.

If you're not saying that, then you clearly don't understand that Nintendo's CONSOLES are their core business, and their games are used to get you to get their consoles. That's what the console business is all about.

fourth the Pedigree of Smash and its quality is so high that most companies know if they lend their character it will not be misused in any form and five every company knows when Sakurai calls you to get your character in Smash so he/she/it can fight Mario the most Iconic character and most powerful Star of videogames it means you are in the pinnacle of the industry and is honor.

That's also a big boost we're not tapping into: having your characters in smash gets them over with the fans of Nintendo consoles. People never bought a considerably more amount of copies of various Sonic games that were multi-platform until Sonic was in Brawl. Then, the Nintendo console version sold the best or competed despite lower quality.

Plus, Nintendo fans in general seem to love specific series. Mega Man, Metal Gear (because there's nothing really like it), Sonic, Pac-Man, Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden, No More Heroes, The Conduit, Professor Layton, Prince of Persia, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest Chrono, Bayonetta, The Wonderful 101, Mana, SMT, Street Fighter, Streets of Rage, Okami, Viewtiful Joe, Shadow of the Colossus, Soul Calibur, Tekken, Ratchet & Clank, Crash, Spyro/Skylanders, Tetris, and Tales are all probably some of these series that interest people.

If you want "horror" look up TMNT Smash! All of the secret characters are Rayman Rabids. I'm not kidding. It makes Pichu in Melee look like the best idea ever.

Imagine a game where Nintendo, Sega, Capcom, Konami, Namco-Bandai, Tecmo - Koei and Square-Enix are together with their respective stars, it will mean the dream of many people and only Nintendo could provide that experience.

Oh man, the idea of Sonic, Mega Man, Ryu (Street Fighter), Snake, Simon Belmont, Pac-Man, Nightmare/Siegfried, Heihachi Mishima, Ryu Hayabusa, Crono, Black Mage, and Slime all in one game plus the Nintendo All-Stars already in smash would be other worldly. It would put M.U.G.E.N. to shame in every way possible.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with your statements but we can have Pac-Man and Snake.
I think Bayonetta is a great idea but while I would love to see her it doesn't seem likely Firstly, She uses Guns almost entirely (Shouldn't be a problem IMHO but it is ) Secondly, she is a little over sexualized I mean her Final Smash would have to be her hair summon and that would leave almost entirely clothe-less.
And Wonderful 101 is first party so one of them is more likely.
After taking all that under consideration Snake has a good chance to come back.
And don't take Kojima's word for snake not being likely Kojima is a known Troll.

About TW-101 being 1st party, it is not. I don't know how to classify them but I think it is:
1st party-Originated from a game series owned by the company(ex.:Mario and Zelda char)
2nd party-Originated from an exclusive game that was made by an affiliate(.: pokemon and FE chars)
3rd party-Originated from another company's game(ex.:Sonic and Mega Man)

 

[Zhadgon]

About TW-101 being 1st party, it is not. I don't know how to classify them but I think it is:
1st party-Originated from a game series owned by the company(ex.:Mario and Zelda char)
2nd party-Originated from an exclusive game that was made by an affiliate(.okemon and FE chars)
3rd party-Originated from another company's game(ex.:Sonic and Mega Man)

Wonderful 101 is first party the IP is owned by Nintendo that means they can use in whatever they want, if they choose the next developer of the IP to be Retro, Game Freak or even other Third Party they can choose to do it and Platinum Games can´t say anything about it.

.n_n.

 

[Deleted member]

Wonderful 101 is first party the IP is owned by Nintendo that means they can use in whatever they want, if they choose the next developer of the IP to be Retro, Game Freak or even other Third Party they can choose to do it and Platinum Games can´t say anything about it.

.n_n.

No, Platinum Games created it, just how GF created Pokemon, the rights may be owned by Nintendo AND Platinum but they have no right to change the games developers unless they agree with it(like how the Pokemon main games aren't made by other companies other than GF, only they have the rights to make one, but others can do SPIN-OFFS if they are allowed)

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

No, Platinum Games created it, just how GF created Pokemon, the rights may be owned by Nintendo AND Platinum but they have no right to change the games developers unless they agree with it(like how the Pokemon main games aren't made by other companies other than GF, only they have the rights to make one, but others can do SPIN-OFFS if they are allowed)

It all comes down to what the deal was in the beginning for instance Nintendo is publishing Bayonetta 2, Platinum is developing it, but SEGA owns it.
It's a weird convoluted mess with all this but Bayonetta and its characters are owned by SEGA it even says at the end of the Wonderful 101 and quote.
"Bayonetta and all Bayonetta characters are copyright SEGA."
Same thing with Wonderful 101 but copyright Nintendo.
But I do respect your opinion and can see where you'd get that conclusion.

 

[Zhadgon]

No, Platinum Games created it, just how GF created Pokemon, the rights may be owned by Nintendo AND Platinum but they have no right to change the games developers unless they agree with it(like how the Pokemon main games aren't made by other companies other than GF, only they have the rights to make one, but others can do SPIN-OFFS if they are allowed)

So then the IP is second party but developed by third party, in other words 2.5 party XD.
.n_n.

 

[andimidna]

Honestly, I think 5 3rd party characters is more likely than only 2.
4 being the most likely, 3 being the 2nd.
I see no reason to stop at Sonic and Mega Man
Unless he wants to disappoint us.

I support the 3rd party roster:

Pac-Man
Mega Man
Sonic
Snake
Bayonetta

 

[Deleted member]

It all comes down to what the deal was in the beginning for instance Nintendo is publishing Bayonetta 2, Platinum is developing it, but SEGA owns it.
It's a weird convoluted mess with all this but Bayonetta and its characters are owned by SEGA it even says at the end of the Wonderful 101 and quote.
"Bayonetta and all Bayonetta characters are copyright SEGA."
Same thing with Wonderful 101 but copyright Nintendo.
But I do respect your opinion and can see where you'd get that conclusion.

So then the IP is second party but developed by third party, in other words 2.5 party XD.
.n_n.

Yeah, it's a bit of a mess, but if Bayonetta is owned by Sega, chances are that we won't see her since we already have Sonic, but Wonder-red seems even more plausible now, this makes me happy!