Why is everyone so opposed to having Smash Balls in competitive play?

[Jennifer Stogner]

Yeah, perhaps I shouldn't have used Hyrule Temple, but for other stages (Final Destination isn't banned right?) some smashes are...well, on Final Destination anything's fair, but some are even more useful like Sonic, who can go anywhere.
Anyway, you catch my drift.
(Btw, I have a question that I hope won't be too noobish, but with Sonic's Smash, say you're not so great at control and you go off a little during a walk-off stage - can you die that way? I've never seen anyone actually die while doing a final smash).

Which reminds me, Samus coming out of her smash takes a long time to transform, and say they ended the smash at a disadvantageous spot (the person is dumb enough to activate it off a ledge or it's a ****ty counterpick that relocates), Samus would die. Not cool.

I still think okaying smash balls justifies stages.
Can you recap the pros and cons for it?

And I know I'm all over the place, but one thing I can't stand about smash balls is that as soon as they appear, players will forget about fighting and race to get he smash, whether to use it or just keep it from other people. It seems like that's anti-competition.
I just don't see why if you would ban any item, a smash ball wouldn't be on that list.

 

[Raikage]

"We say plenty more than that. The fact that you can comprehend it is not our fault."

Yeah, you SAY a lot. Where's the proof? Actual games? You resort to using outlandish examples instead. Surely if you're so confident that you're right (And judging by the arrogance dripping off your posts you are pretty sure of yourself) theres no harm in actually seeing what happens.

Cause this might sound crazy, but I've played with Smash Balls on AND off, and 99% of what you are saying about what they turn the game into is completely and utterly false.

 

[Yuna]

Well... in a tournament, nobody would be playing on Hyrule Temple to begin with...

But you do have a point: on certain stages, some FS's are so useless they're almost detrimental. Like how Marth will readily Critical Hit himself off the stage and into a SD on particularly small stages.

Including Smash Balls in tournament play would only make characters more unbalanced.

Marth can cancel his Final Smash by hitting B again, stopping himself from SD:ing. He'll also only SD in the air. On the ground, he'll stop once he reaches the edge of the stage (not counting walk-off edges, but that's what the cancel is for).

Yeah, you SAY a lot. Where's the proof? Actual games? You resort to using outlandish examples instead. Surely if you're so confident that you're right (And judging by the arrogance dripping off your posts you are pretty sure of yourself) theres no harm in actually seeing what happens.

Cause this might sound crazy, but I've played with Smash Balls on AND off, and 99% of what you are saying about what they turn the game into is completely and utterly false.

What outlandish examples? "Small Ball spawns while someone is off the stage"? How is that outlandish? It's already happened one bazillion times in my games.

Final Smashes are broken because this is how they work (invincibility frames, imbalance, camping)? It's all in the programming. If you look at the game, it will immediately become clear to you (if you have a brain).

It'll promote camping? Insight into competitive gaming and Smash in general.

Bottom line is: I know a lot more than you do. Almost everything I say can easily be verified by simply playing the game. You cannot refute how Final Smashes work. You cannot refute how imbalanced they are. You cannot refute how they're random in spawning. Because it's not a matter of outlandish examples or opinion, it's a matter of fact.

 

[orintemple]

Somehow I knew Yuna would be in this thread.


Seriously guys, give it a rest. Smashballs are bad for competition. I am going to a tourney from my school that was set up to be casual friendly (certain items on, including smash balls) on Friday and I will take some footage. Hopefully there will be something there to prove to you people once and for all that Smash Balls in competitive play is BAD. Although I doubt that will stop the scrubs from talking about this insane idea.

In any case I will just let Yuna do all the work for me of tearing you guys a new one.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Bottom line is: I know a lot more than you do. Almost everything I say can easily be verified by simply playing the game. You cannot refute how Final Smashes work. You cannot refute how imbalanced they are. You cannot refute how they're random in spawning. Because it's not a matter of outlandish examples or opinion, it's a matter of fact.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Bocom]

I've played Brawl shorter than Yuna has, but I can guarantee that SBs are random. Completely. Sometimes it spawns in front of us, sometimes above, sometimes above, when players are on the stage, when they're off, right when they're spawning, etc.

Trying to say that is it isn't like that, well... VIDSPLXORITDIDN'THAPPEN!

Of course, some FSs are easy to dodge and stuff, but that's not what we're trying to say. We are trying to say that there are some FSs that are beastly enough to earn a ban. Even if "it's easily dodged /emo", that doesn't mean that you can combo it. For example, if you can get an enemy up in the air, and the activate his FS before the enemy has time to start recovering and/or airdodge. You could claim that as "skilled playing", but it isn't. If the Ike in this case gets the SB when you are still coming in from the stage or whatever, if he can combo it on you, and you have any percentage over at least 50% or something, then you are screwed. That isn't skill, because you might've won the match if it wasn't for the SB.

That probably didn't make sense, please tell me if it didn't.

 

[EternalCrusade]

why is this thread still alive and at the top? yuna, you STILL havent convinced these people yet?

 

[Yuna]

why is this thread still alive and at the top? yuna, you STILL havent convinced these people yet?

New "people" just keep coming in, categorically refusing to read any of what's been posted insofar and then repeating the same old inane arguments.

Really, the mods should let me sticky a thread on why items and Final Smashes cannot be allowed in tournaments.

 

[Duker]

why is this thread still alive and at the top? yuna, you STILL havent convinced these people yet?

Because some people are utterly impossible to convice. For example, just think of the Roy forum... For most Roy's hardcore fans (including me) it doesn't matter how much people say Marth is better. Don't even think of bringing up that discussion again though please, I got tired of it a year ago.

 

[Bocom]

New "people" just keep coming in, categorically refusing to read any of what's been posted insofar and then repeating the same old inane arguments.

Really, the mods should let me sticky a thread on why items and Final Smashes cannot be allowed in tournaments.

Indeed they should, Yuna. Indeed they should.

 

[Barstool]

My problem with Smash Balls is how, even with items on Very Low, they appear like, once every 30 seconds.
There should be something like My Music, but for item frequency. If smash balls appeared only once or twice a match, they wouldn't be nearly as unbalancing as they are now.

 

[Dime]

New "people" just keep coming in, categorically refusing to read any of what's been posted insofar and then repeating the same old inane arguments.

Really, the mods should let me sticky a thread on why items and Final Smashes cannot be allowed in tournaments.

I agree that way us new members can be reminded as to who has the final say on anything smash related. Speaking for myself, I don’t bother reading threads I just read your posts so I know what the correct opinion to have is. I never was a big fan of independent thought or questioning established practices. I much rather blindly follow someone more experienced than myself and maintain the status quo.

 

[Meta Ryu]

smash balls give an ADVANTAGE, they are not an instant kill. All of them can be dodged. Once people get used to them, I beleive they won;'t think of them as something overpowered and more as a new edge guarding like strat (where instead of trying to keep the oppoent off the stage, it 's keeping them from getting th ball. A nd if they do get the ball it reverses and it's trying to A: stay from them and dodge it, or B: knocking it out of them)

EX: Me versus a falco. On our last life. He got the smash ball four times in a row. The first three I dodged through various manuevers. Final one killed me finally. All four were on our last stock.

Hammers, Dragoon parts....thoses are things that shold be left out. But smash balls, hell no.

 

[Bocom]

smash balls give an ADVANTAGE, they are not an instant kill. All of them can be dodged. Once people get used to them, I beleive they won;'t think of them as something overpowered and more as a new edge guarding like strat (where instead of trying to keep the oppoent off the stage, it 's keeping them from getting th ball. A nd if they do get the ball it reverses and it's trying to A: stay from them and dodge it, or B: knocking it out of them)

EX: Me versus a falco. On our last life. He got the smash ball four times in a row. The first three I dodged through various manuevers. Final one killed me finally. All four were on our last stock.

Hammers, Dragoon parts....thoses are things that shold be left out. But smash balls, hell no.

How in the name of God is it that people fail to realize that one or two things won't emulate the way tournaments are played? If one player would win by using only SBs, then it wouldn't be very fun. Sure, maybe for the winner, but not for everyone else, especially if he gloats and thinks he has skills.

SBs = Randomness = Luck.

You can't be skilled and win because of random reasons, like SBs. Hammers aren't as dangerous as SBs, because you can still hurt, and kill a player if he has one. If the hammer effect wears off while he's off-stage, then he's pretty much dead if he can't recover. HAMMERS give an advantage. More advantages than a SBs, because SBs are too overpowered for competitive playing.

 

[Meta Ryu]

Hammers appear randomly on the stage.

A SB flys around randomly, alowwing fairly equal access opposed to a normal item. In addiiton it takes multiple hit s99% of the time.

random elements make hte game more skilled oriented because it takes a more skilled player to react to different situations then it does to someone who knows only a certain amount of possibilites are there.
and I quote, "How in the name of God" can't YOU realise this?

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Hammers appear randomly on the stage.

A SB flys around randomly, alowwing fairly equal access opposed to a normal item. In addiiton it takes multiple hit s99% of the time.

random elements make hte game more skilled oriented because it takes a more skilled player to react to different situations then it does to someone who knows only a certain amount of possibilites are there.
and I quote, "How in the name of God" can't YOU realise this?

I dont see how having to adapt your opoonent's unfair advantage is... fair.

Really this is not about being more "skilled" or probing you are "the best," its about a leveled playing field. (and no offense but all the item players I've faced have been noobs, if they are really more skilled it doesn't show),

If a player manages to get the smash ball out of his opponent and KO him after that, that might mean that he is "skilled" but he shouln't have to deal with something like that, if it its random.

oh and read my sig, its funny.

 

[Bocom]

I dont see how having to adapt your opoonent's unfair advantage is... fair.

Really this is not about being more "skilled" or probing you are "the best," its about a leveled playing field. (and no offense but all the item players I've faced have been noobs, if they are really more skilled it doesn't show),

If a player manages to get the smash ball out of his opponent and KO him after that, that might mean that he is "skilled" but he shouln't have to deal with something like that, if it its random.

oh and read my sig, its funny.

Quoted for truth.

This post pretty much sums it up.

 

[FalconPunch]

Because you touch yourself.

 

[Bocom]

Because you touch yourself.

That contributed to the thread... how?

 

[TheGlitchMaster]

i'm fine with it! you have to work for the ball!

 

[Tsuteto]

Real life example time!

Let's take two very skilled martial artists. There they are, beating the crap out of each other, several minutes having gone by. Then, all of a sudden, this guy with a fishing pull from the ceiling throws over a gun attached to the end! Quick! Get the gun! It's your only chance! One of them got it! BANG! Oh snap...

Yeah, SBs are unevening, no matter WHAT you say. Zelda, Marth, Space Animals, Sonic, Ganon, they all have EXTREMELY cheap final smashes. Metaknight, Kirby, Bowser, Snake, they all have sucky ones. Others probably fit in there, but the fact of the matter is that SBs truly do unbalance the game. Someone gets a SB, holds onto it because they can kill the other person, rack up 30% of damage, then succeed with their final smash. That's TWO DEATHS in less than 20 SECONDS. If that was the result of someone having used purely their own moves, they're deemed good. If that was the result of using a SB, they're deemed lucky.

No matter WHAT you say the SB is far too unevening. The dragoon is probably the most "balanced" item in the game because you have to acquire three parts, knock any parts out of the other person if they get one, and aim pretty **** well with that thing. I dunno about you guys, but against a semi-average player, they can dodge it at LEAST half the time.

Learn your **** items before you say "such and such should be there."

 

[thewiredknight]

Long story short I think the argument against them comes down to this.

Final Smash is essentially a trump card that only one person gets to use and only one person probabily will GET to use.

Such essentially cripples the game.

Now don't get me wrong, I think FSs are fun, but that doesn't mean they are suitable for competitive play. If you really want to see how balanced they are, do a FFA match at about 3 min with only smash balls on. Watch as one party will win solely because he gains an insurmountable lead from his FS and potentially at the last second. It's even more obvious when it's a FS that can easily get multiple KOs or even surefire ones.

Oh and don't get me started on "pity" final smashes, that was the worst idea period.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD

I'm getting a little tired of butting heads with you, Yuna, but I'll do it one more time. I don't know how else to explain to you that I'm not ignoring you, other to go through every single paragraph you've posted and post my response to it.

From page 2:

Said random attacks do not randomly come out without the opponent being able to stop you. If they simply keep the pressure up, you won't be able to pull them out. No one can stop an FS from spawning if it's turned on.

Also, you can dodge said random-based attacks, they only hit once and are over fast. And they are also not broken (I'll go more into that later)... the randomness does in no way unbalance the game so that people have to play as the "random" characters to win.

I will concede that random normal attacks are typically easier to dodge than Final Smashes. But you're making it sound as though all Final Smashes are guaranteed killers: they might be basically guaranteed in the hands of a skilled player, but none of them are completely unavoidable. Unless Ice Climber's is really as impossible to dodge as you say, but I haven't really tested their FS much.

The most important part is: What else are we going to do, ban the characters?

If a stage is too random, we ban it. Short of banning characters, there's nothing we can do with random moves. But again, they're just minor. The effects of the random moves are not that large. Why was Game & Watch still so low on the Tier List despite having a killer random attack? Because it just wasn't that good.

Why not ban characters? Isn't that what most fighting game communities do when a character becomes too unbalancing?

Some characters' Final Smashes are just so good if we allow them, tournament play would literaly devolve into only 3 or so characters being played in tournaments (or at least standing even a remote chance at winning).

I'll use Marth's FS as an example. I does 70% of damage (70% of damage) and then finishes with a super-strong move with a huge knockback. That means that on any given stage that's not banned because of size, you'll die at 0%! Not bad enough? It's also got everything else that Final Smashes have (specified later) and you can combo into it from at least 5 different moves!

And don't give me the bull crap of him dying if he's in the air. No Marth worth his salt should use it in the air when there's a risk of it whiffing.

So ban Marth! Ban the Space Animals! If these characters are allowed and they make it so that no one else has a chance, why are they allowed to stay in?

The game would revolve around Final Smashes. People would pick characters with the best Final Smashes and once they spawned, it would be all about who gets it. Tournaments would literally be decided by Final Smashes alone most of the time.

The game already revolves around Final Smashes. Sakurai put them there because he thought they were a good addition and he assumed that most people would want to use them. Besides, during that time period where no smash balls are around, you still have to fight 1v1 against this other guy.

There are many other possible (and stupid) scenarios as well. You and me are fighting. I knock you off stage. A Final Smashes appears right above me and I have enough time to get it before you even make it back on stage.

Luck of the draw, that's all. We accept random scenarios in so many other games, why not in Brawl?

The best way to assure that your opponent doesn't get it so to actually go and get it. Samus players would be screwed. What if they just don't want to learn ZSS? Too bad, they have to since they'll need to grap that Smash Ball and use it to prevent their opponent from using it.

You're right, that sucks for Samus/ZSS players. Well don't blame me, blame Sakurai! (laughs)

So you're basically advocating camping and Smash Ball camping, having games and tournaments decided primarily by FS:es? Good show.

Sure. I think it would make for more entertaining games.

One actually is; Ice Climbers'. Unless you have frame-perfect timing and are camping the edge (at which point you're susceptible to the IC's edgeguarding you), you're going to take damage from it. Some FS:es also damage you even if you don't get hit by the opponent (Peach, Meta-Knight).

Also, some of them, some of which kill at 0% can be comboed into (Marth, Link, Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, among others).

Well you're right about those things. But then you would just have to prevent your opponent from getting the Smash Balls.

the rest of your pg. 2 post

I get it, Final Smashes are unbalanced. My whole point in making this thread was that the Smash Ball itself lends new mechanics to the game. You've already dismissed that with "still too random" or "even more campy" so I'm guessing there's nothing I can say that will make you change your mind about it.

Your post on pg. 4
Your post on page 4 was nothing but you making false accusations. The only "argument" I actually made in my page 3 post was "We should give it a try", which you responded to later. Nowhere in my page 3 post did I try to refute any of your points; I never even implied that anything you said was wrong! I was asking a question for the sake of clarification, and you immediately jumped on me as if I had just tuned you out. You may think that it was answered by your original post, but it wasn't. You hate both Final Smashes and Smash Balls, I just wanted to know which one you hated more.

Besides, it was just a hypothetical scenario.

From page 5
Your page 5 post was basically just "You ignored me because you know I'm right" again, but let's look at it more closely:

If you did, why did you ignore certain parts of what I said, not bothering to reply to it and then repeat the same stuff you've already said that I refuted in my post?

That's ignoring my post with arguments against yours and then re-using them as if no one had refuted them/argued against them.

As I just said, I didn't re-use any arguments in my page 3 post: I only made 1 argument and it was a completely different one. The other question I had posed was one that you hadn't answered already.

Theory fighter is important when talking about potential. The highest point of Brawl will like this and this and this. We can predict this by looking at the currently known metagame. The fact that at this very moment, very few people can take Brawl to that level is irrelevant.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but basically it's "theory is just as good as testing in this case" or something like that?

It's about that it "could". It's about that it "does".

This implies that you've tried it. I thought you were so sure that it wouldn't work that it didn't even need to be tried?

Yes I can. Because Smash Balls are broken on one gazillion levels. I've already told you why. Invicibility, comboability, strength, imbalance, take your pick. Stop ignoring those things.

From a competitive fighting gamer's standpoint, allowing FS:es in tournaments would be disastrous. You're not a competitive fighting game player. Why are you arguing as if you were against someone (actually, a lot of people) who are? Are you going to attend tournaments?

It's true that I don't play games competitively, but it's possible that I might play Brawl in the future at a tournament level. Unlikely, but possible. The main reason I'm arguing is that I don't like how competitive Smash has turned out, and I proposed something different that might make the game, I don't know, more fun? I know "fun" is subjective, but most people probably enjoy running over their opponents in a Landmaster, or carving them up with the Triforce itself. I even tried to appeal to the competitive players by arguing that it adds new depth to the game. But I suppose that sort of talk doesn't work on you, does it?

FS:es can never be turned on in tournaments. I have already told you why. You still seem to think that they could and should be on. If so, then you're most probably a casual gamer (n00b or not). One with very little insight into competitive fighting games in general and Smashing in particular.

Having FS:es on for Casual Play = Fun (for some) and chaotic (=fun for some).
Having FS:es on for competitive play (i.e. tournaments) = Disastrous!

This is an old topic. We've debated it to death over and over. And each time, it ends with no one being able to actually beat at least 75% of my arguments (the most important ones). The fact that you brought it up against shows that you're either new and didn't know about the previous discussions or you thought it was due time for yet another one (without actually bringing anything new to the table.

And it's a often-used strategy here on Smashboards by newer users who just don't know how to argue properly to categorically ignore posts which destroy their arguments. The fact that you seemed to be doing it made me think you were one of these people, can you see why I rode you so hard?

It's true that I'm new, and it's true that I play Brawl for fun and not to win tournaments. But all competitive players were casuals at one point, right?

I can say that you and everyone else have given me a good understanding of why Smash Balls are currently not allowed in competitive play. I still don't fully agree, but I can accept it at least.

Meanwhile, can YOU accept that the fault is with you for jumping to several false conclusions about me, instead of blaming me for it?

To everyone else who posted in this thread:

I appreciate all the responses. And with only a minimum of flaming!

I'm done with this thread. You guys discuss amongst yourselves more if you want. Yuna can make his rebuttal if he wants but know that I won't reply even after I read it.

 

[salaboB]

The game already revolves around Final Smashes. Sakurai put them there because he thought they were a good addition and he assumed that most people would want to use them. Besides, during that time period where no smash balls are around, you still have to fight 1v1 against this other guy.

Sakurai put them there because they're a way for a less skilled player to turn the tide against a better one, because he wanted effort to matter more than ability. He also apparently had no clue what most people really wanted as even my friends who are utterly noncompetitive have a distinct hatred for final smashes and never play with them enabled. Using the argument that he knows what he was doing and trying to apply it to a competitive discussion is not a good way to demonstrate anything.

It is not fun for most people to dodge one super player you can't touch for 10-15 seconds (Or however long some of the longer ones last). Again, for most people it's also unfun to dodge a single shot you're-dead from someone else. For tournament play, it's simply unnecessary because you can have a fine competition without smash balls ever spawning, and no matter what benefits they have they do insert non-skill based randomness since they can as easily spawn while one person is recovering (And thus giving the other person a free shot at the smashball) as not.

Edit: Personally, I don't even enjoy using final smashes much, they feel far too much like cheating. But I enjoy dodging an opponent's unpunishable attack even less than I enjoy using one, and so I have no real choice but to try to get it for myself.

 

[GetSmashedWithTheBros]

"We don't ban the strongest characters... we find ways to beat them."

Tell me a way to beat a final smash. Can you go head to head with the Landmaster and drop it? What about Marth's Critical Hit? Or Super Sonic? Or PK Starstorm? Or Beast Ganon? Or Giga Bowser? Are you capable KOing these?

No. You're not. The final smash an unfair advantage. And whether or not it's fair that both players have an opportunity to gain an unfair advantage doesn't change the fact that it's an unfair advantage. And competitive smash seeks to eliminate unfair advantages to achieve a test of true skill. End of story.

"So ban Marth! Ban the Space Animals! If these characters are allowed and they make it so that no one else has a chance, why are they allowed to stay in?"

So what, you want to just decimate the characters with good final smashes just so you can get some other character's final smash in an official game? That's absurd! 'LET'S JUST REMOVE A THIRD OF THE SSBB CAST' sounds like the least intelligent thing that could be done.

 

[MysticKenji]

Why not ban characters? Isn't that what most fighting game communities do when a character becomes too unbalancing?

iirc that's usually a last resort

So ban Marth! Ban the Space Animals! If these characters are allowed and they make it so that no one else has a chance, why are they allowed to stay in?

Because that's not the case when Smashballs are off.

The game already revolves around Final Smashes.

False statement.

Luck of the draw, that's all. We accept random scenarios in so many other games, why not in Brawl?

They're also minimized in all cases. That would include Brawl.

You're right, that sucks for Samus/ZSS players. Well don't blame me, blame Sakurai! (laughs)

*facepalm*

I'd respond to the rest of your post but since you're done, I won't bother.

Lock plz?

 

[petre]

The game already revolves around Final Smashes. Sakurai put them there because he thought they were a good addition and he assumed that most people would want to use them.

i originally wasnt going to post here, but then i saw this.

sakurai did not made this game for the competitve community. if anything, he was purposely working against it. its why he included things like tripping and OHKO items. he wants the game to be as random as possible, where the random noob mashing the A button can beat the pro that will gimp you at 30%.

theres multiple ways to play brawl. if you want to have a contest of who can hit the floating smash ball enough to break it first, then by all means turn on smash balls. if you want to determine who is more skilled in a strategic fighting game, leave them off. which contest would you rather put your money in?

 

[Jennifer Stogner]

This is gonna be tremendously simplistic, but
the fact that there's even this much controversy over it makes it obvious that
smash balls should be banned
it's not worth the debate when you could just get rid of them.
It doesn't add fairness.
We sever nothing.

 

[D.A.N.]

I don't see how anyone can seriously want Final Smashes in. It's an item like everything else. Is there some kind of happy dance people get from it just because it gives character's "finishing" moves? Because that's gotta be the main reason why people want it allowed. Because it looks really cool.

Seriously now. The Smash Ball is an unbalanced, randomly appearing item like all the rest. There is more ground to be held with allowing hammers in than there is with Smash Balls. I'm getting inherently tired seeing so many people who want them allowed in competitive play just because they like gawking at the cool animations they have.

Luck of the draw, that's all. We accept random scenarios in so many other games, why not in Brawl?

What games? Random scenarios are removed as much as possible from games when they're competitively played.

Why not ban characters? Isn't that what most fighting game communities do when a character becomes too unbalancing?

Characters are only banned in games when they present too much unbalanced tactics. You can't ban a character for having an epic Final Smash when you can just turn smash balls off.

The game already revolves around Final Smashes.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Chexr]

The game degrades to whoever gets the smash ball wins. People will just camp until one appears then get it. Do it again next stock. And that will be the entire metagame no one will have to work or fight. Just run around the entire match and thats really gay.

 

[Fredd]

I`m surprised that I haven`t stumbled upon this thread ever since you created it.
Here are my thoughts,

Here are what I think are the two most common arguments:

1. "Smash Balls are random"
Well there are a lot of random elements in this game. I don't see how anyone can complain about randomness in Brawl when any character can trip at any time, for no reason at all. Not to mention some characters have inherently random attacks.

Sure, that may be true. But only to a certain extent, however.
Can Smash Balls really be random if you "turn them on?"

2. "Final Smashes are too unbalancing"
It's true that some character's FSs are stronger than others, but it's also true that some characters in general are better than others. And we don't automatically ban the strongest characters because they are the strongest; we find ways to beat them.

Once again, your statements only hold some truth in themselves.
Your definition of 'strong Final Smashes’ is your opinion.
Perhaps I`m wrong, and countless Brawlers think the same, but you can`t assume so.
So the same applies for ‘strong characters.’
For instance, your ‘strong character’ could be a Peach, but mine could be a Mario.
I`m more than 100% sure that everyone here has their own ‘strong-character’ opinion.
A character cannot, and should not, be assumed ‘strong’ judging by the strength of their attack(s), or whatnot.
Similarly, it is not a character`s attack that makes one ‘strong’ but the player him/herself.
Does that mean we ban the whole roster? Sadly, no.

If we can get past these two things, I would argue that leaving Smash Balls in (but no other items) would actually add an interesting new dimension to competitive Smash.

Let's say in a 1v1 game on Final Destination, both players are in the middle duking it out, and a Smash Ball appears in the air above them. The way I see it, one of 3 things can happen:
a) Both players scramble to hit the Smash Ball as much as possible. The chance of either player getting it is more or less even.
b) Player 1 goes for the Smash Ball, but player 2 continues attacking player 1 and knocks him away. Now Player 2 basically has a free shot at his FS.
c) Neither player goes for it and the fighting continues until one of them can attempt to break it unmolested.

Of course the Smash Ball isn't just sitting still during all of this; it floats around. So maybe player 1 (let's say Marth) knocks player 2 (Lucario) over to the right, while the Smash Ball floats to the right. Lucario is closer to it, but if he's careless and hits the ball over to the left, Marth will probably get it instead.

But if he hits it to the right, the ball is most likely not broken yet, and Lucario is in an interesting position. He's put some distance between Marth and the Smash Ball. Now Marth will most likely be advancing toward the right as much as possible because a) he wants the FS or b) he wants Lucario not to get his FS. And Lucario can either a) try and get the FS himself or b) attack Marth and keep him away from it as long as possible. But if he tries to stall for too long, the Smash Ball may float out of reach, and come back down in a different position where Marth will be able to get it.

Now, there's a reason I chose Marth and Lucario for this example. We can all agree that Lucario's FS is more or less useless in 1v1, while Marth's is arguably one of the strongest. So the Lucario player wouldn't care as much about getting his FS, as he would preventing the opponent from getting his. Similarly, Marth wants to go right for the Smash Ball as soon as he sees it.

Yes, quite arguably.
What damage percentage [%] is your opponent at?
I`m pretty confident that Lucario`s Final Smash can KO an opponent in the same manner Marth`s can.
You shouldn`t disregard damage percentage, especially when referring to ‘useless’ Final Smashes.

In this way the addition of the FS would lead to a very different way to play certain characters. From what I understand, Sonic is not very good, yet no one can argue how formidable his FS is. So a Sonic player might play the standard Sonic way (however that is) or he might play more defensive, trying to avoid damage until the Smash Ball appears. Then he can use his superior speed to try and beat his opponent to it, and thus get his kills that way. It would be kind of lame, but is it any more lame than an overly campy Toon Link or Pit? And hopefully we're playing on a neutral enough stage, one that's not too big for Sonic to completely avoid confrontation.

Woah ho ho there.
Sonic, not good? Where are all those Sonic players!? Come bash this guy.
Again and again, this is a matter of your opinion.

Finally, none of the Final Smashes are completely unavoidable, so it's not exactly like getting one = instant kill for you. And they're all unique attacks that we're robbing the characters of by not including them.

There were probably some other things I wanted to say, but I forget what they were. But basically, it's obvious at this point that Brawl is not Melee and it never will be, so why not mix things up a little bit? Brawl is already different from Melee, and adding Smash Balls (on Low, of course) adds a new dimension to the game, and a new way to play it.

At the very least we should give it a try.

Here is my conclusion,

Smash Balls can, and will, give players an unfair advantage over the other, in one way, shape or form.
EVEN HARMLESS PUNCHING BAGS CAN GIVE ADVANTAGES OVER THE OTHER PLAYER!

That is all.​

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This whole debate halts at the random aspect. Just because there are a few random elements beyond our control, that does not authorize adding more random elements to the game.

 

[Yuna]

Sure, that may be true. But only to a certain extent, however.
Can Smash Balls really be random if you "turn them on?"​

Where's the logic here? Of course they can. They still spawn randomly (and sometimes fly in random direction despite the fact that we're distinctly hitting them in a certain one).

​

Once again, your statements only hold some truth in themselves.
Your definition of 'strong Final Smashes’ is your opinion.
Perhaps I`m wrong, and countless Brawlers think the same, but you can`t assume so.
So the same applies for ‘strong characters.’
For instance, your ‘strong character’ could be a Peach, but mine could be a Mario.
I`m more than 100% sure that everyone here has their own ‘strong-character’ opinion.
A character cannot, and should not, be assumed ‘strong’ judging by the strength of their attack(s), or whatnot.
Similarly, it is not a character`s attack that makes one ‘strong’ but the player him/herself.
Does that mean we ban the whole roster? Sadly, no.

Just because you might not know how to use FS:es properly does not mean I'm not right. Peach's FS is one of the weakest in the game. Sure, it inflicts 49% of damage if they're at point blank range (0% if they're far, far away). But it doesn't put people who are in the air to sleep. It also leaves peaches behind that also the opponent can eat. The peaches hel, like, 49% of damage themselves so it's not that huge. And did I mention the attack has 0 knockback? The best she'll be able to do is charge an fsmash while you're sleeping, which is strong but will never kill anyone if they fell asleep at 0% and took 49% of damage. Not to mention you can't combo into her FS since it doesn't put people in the air to sleep.

Mario's FS is weak. You can easily jump past it, even after taking a hit. It will never KO anyone who's not an idiot since the knockback is almost inexistent and all you're doing is riding it.

No, when you analyze the FS:es, you can easily conclude which ones are the best. Can they be comboed into (making them unavoidable if comboed into)? Do they KO on their own? If so, at what damage? Hitbox? Range? Speed? etc., etc., etc.

Of course it's the character moves which makes it strong. Not even Azen can make Yoshi perform anywhere near the same level even a half-***** Toon Link. And you're not even getting this right. According to your logic, we should ban players.

​

Yes, quite arguably.
What damage percentage [%] is your opponent at?
I`m pretty confident that Lucario`s Final Smash can KO an opponent in the same manner Marth`s can.
You shouldn`t disregard damage percentage, especially when referring to ‘useless’ Final Smashes.

The only way to hit with Lucario's FS is if your opponent is an idiot without any grasp of the concept of "Jump, 2nd jump, Up B" or if Lucario manages to launch him off the stage without any DI so he has to go for the edge when recovering instead of recovering high and then activating his FS.

Even if the FS lands, the opponent can actually tap-DI out of it into an Up B.

​

Woah ho ho there.
Sonic, not good? Where are all those Sonic players!? Come bash this guy.
Again and again, this is a matter of your opinion.

Sonic isn't very good. Tell me how Sonic is good. The fact that there are Sonic fanboys out there doesn't magically make him perform anywhere near the same level as Marth (without FS:es).

​

Here is my conclusion,

Smash Balls can, and will, give players an unfair advantage over the other, in one way, shape or form.
EVEN HARMLESS PUNCHING BAGS CAN GIVE ADVANTAGES OVER THE OTHER PLAYER!

You are wrong, your logic is wrong, your reasoning is wrong, you've ignored 29,000 pages of posts (not only in this thread but many others), you are simply just wrong.

​

That is all.

Cookies.

 

[Pit_Mainer]

Because, it turns the match around very quickly if you are able to get one.

 

[Dime]

It’s simple.
You don’t need to listen to anyone. You don’t need anyone’s approval. If you want smashballs in a tourney then host one. Announce your tourney here on smashboards and some other sites. Just be sure to specify the rules and that you will have smashballs on. I would put it in the title of your tourney example: SmashBalls of Fire. You will quickly find out how much interest there is for this kind of tournament if there is any. After you have the results of the tournament you can judge how successful it was and if the players enjoyed this type of tourney. If you and the other attendees had a good time then F*** what anyone else thinks.
If there is a tournament like this east of Harrisburg I’ll do my best to be there.

 

[TheGlitchMaster]

next people will be saying ban items!......dammit

 

[Waggles]

Too much randomness, and even on low the smash balls will usually appear for me once every stock or so, which just turns the game into chasing the smash ball

 

[Yuna]

WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD

You should've warned us against stupidity.

I'm getting a little tired of butting heads with you, Yuna, but I'll do it one more time. I don't know how else to explain to you that I'm not ignoring you, other to go through every single paragraph you've posted and post my response to it.

Because you're wrong and have yet to figure out a single valid counter-argument to even make a dent in my statements?

I will concede that random normal attacks are typically easier to dodge than Final Smashes. But you're making it sound as though all Final Smashes are guaranteed killers: they might be basically guaranteed in the hands of a skilled player, but none of them are completely unavoidable. Unless Ice Climber's is really as impossible to dodge as you say, but I haven't really tested their FS much.

The fact that not all FS:es are guaranteed killer make it much worse since it imbalances the game. The tournament scene will devolve into people choosing a select few characters; those who are good already without FS:es and also good with them (Marth, Toon Link, etc.).

They're unavoidable if they can be comboed into (as in: from a combo). And what are you gonna do when Marth's got a Smash Ball in his hands and you're not Pit (one arrow will knock it out)? Run for your life while he pressures you and looks for an opening to FS you?

Why not ban characters? Isn't that what most fighting game communities do when a character becomes too unbalancing?

Because they're not unbalanced enough without FS:es. If you can see us banning characters, why not have us ban FS:es? Because it's "more fun"?

So ban Marth! Ban the Space Animals! If these characters are allowed and they make it so that no one else has a chance, why are they allowed to stay in?

Because without FS:es, they're not unbalanced enough (wow I'm repeating myself). What makes FS:es so important we have to have them on despite them ruining competitive plan and apparently forcing us to ban at least 12 characters? Because "they're flashy and fun"?

The game already revolves around Final Smashes. Sakurai put them there because he thought they were a good addition and he assumed that most people would want to use them. Besides, during that time period where no smash balls are around, you still have to fight 1v1 against this other guy.

Sakurai also gave us items like the Hammer, the Bob-omb and the Dragoon. I guess we should put those on as well.

He also gave us the Frigate Orpheon, Brinstar, Donkey Kong's new stage (the new Icicle Mountain) and Wario Ware, Inc. I guess they should all be counterpick stages/on random as well. What Sakurai gave us and what he thinks we should do has no bearing on what we do do. Because first of all, Sakurai is not part of the competitive community, he does not dictate what we do.

In fact, no single game creator has ever had a hand in the formation of its competitive scene (in more than (re-)balancing the game and creating it for the public at large)!

Not to mention the fact that Sakurai gave us options. He gave us the option to turn certain things off. In fact, I think Smash is the only fighting game where you can actually turn stages off as opposed to other fighting games where there exists banned stages that people just have to reset the game for if they're chosen by Random!

Luck of the draw, that's all. We accept random scenarios in so many other games, why not in Brawl?

Because those games are not competitive fighting games/competitive games in general. When competing (especially for serious money), people always try to limit randomness as much as possible. How many times must we say this?!

You're right, that sucks for Samus/ZSS players. Well don't blame me, blame Sakurai! (laughs)

Sakurai gave us options. We choose certain things. You want us to choose other things with the argument "It's what Sakurai would want" (how the hell do you know what Sakurai wants, anyway?).

Sure. I think it would make for more entertaining games.

Entertaining =/= Good.
Entertaining for you =/= Bovine manure for me
You = Wrong
Me = Right
Smashboards = "Yuna is right."

Well you're right about those things. But then you would just have to prevent your opponent from getting the Smash Balls.

Oh yeah, because Ken and Azen are going to be able to prevent their opponent from getting the Smash Ball every single time because it's just that easy.

It's like if Peach could only pull Bob-ombs and we left her unbanned saying "Just dodge them all".

I get it, Final Smashes are unbalanced. My whole point in making this thread was that the Smash Ball itself lends new mechanics to the game. You've already dismissed that with "still too random" or "even more campy" so I'm guessing there's nothing I can say that will make you change your mind about it.

The Smash Ball itself lends new mechanics to the game? So? So does Frigate Orpeon.

So do a bunch of other items.

You dismiss everything I say (which is 100% valid from a competitive standpoint, you don't even play this game competitively. Do you even plan on attending tournaments?! Why do you try to shape the tournament scene when you so obviously aren't a part of it? Would you enter tournaments even if we allowed Smash Balls?) with "It would be more fun/entertaining/interesting".

Your post on page 4 was nothing but you making false accusations. The only "argument" I actually made in my page 3 post was "We should give it a try", which you responded to later. Nowhere in my page 3 post did I try to refute any of your points; I never even implied that anything you said was wrong! I was asking a question for the sake of clarification, and you immediately jumped on me as if I had just tuned you out. You may think that it was answered by your original post, but it wasn't. You hate both Final Smashes and Smash Balls, I just wanted to know which one you hated more.

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

I accused you of ignoring my posts.

If you reply to a bunch of other people, repeat the same idiotic bovine manure I've already refuted and then ignore my posts completely, of course I'm going to assume you've ignored me.

Besides, it was just a hypothetical scenario.

And stupid.

Your page 5 post was basically just "You ignored me because you know I'm right" again, but let's look at it more closely:

Common tactic on these and other boards. The fact you just ignoed me because you felt like it doesn't make you much more "right".

As I just said, I didn't re-use any arguments in my page 3 post: I only made 1 argument and it was a completely different one. The other question I had posed was one that you hadn't answered already.

Yes you did. And why did you ignore all of my points in the first place? And why are you now re-using a bunch of arguments I've already refuted several times over?

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but basically it's "theory is just as good as testing in this case" or something like that?

No, I'm saying that testing can be done outside of tournamnaments.

Training Mode to get the characteristics of Final Smashes down and the basics. Friendlies to see them in action. We don't have to test Spear Pillar out in tournaments to realize that it should be banned. The same applies to FS:es.

This implies that you've tried it. I thought you were so sure that it wouldn't work that it didn't even need to be tried?

When did I ever say this? Reading comprehension is very important. From what I can gather, you're American. I'm Swedish. English is my third language yet my grasp of it is, apparently, far superior to yours.

It's true that I don't play games competitively, but it's possible that I might play Brawl in the future at a tournament level. Unlikely, but possible. The main reason I'm arguing is that I don't like how competitive Smash has turned out, and I proposed something different that might make the game, I don't know, more fun? I know "fun" is subjective, but most people probably enjoy running over their opponents in a Landmaster, or carving them up with the Triforce itself. I even tried to appeal to the competitive players by arguing that it adds new depth to the game. But I suppose that sort of talk doesn't work on you, does it?

Possible? Wow, I guess that entitles you to try to influence a scene you're not yet a part of or might never be even when the entire scene is against your suggestions.

You don't like how competitive Smash has turned out? You're not a part of the scene. You yourself admit to quite possibly (and probably) not ever being a part of it. Why do you want to change it?! Especially when the scene itself is perfectly happy being the way it is?!

Why would you possibly want to change something you're not going to be a part of?! Just because?! Are we hurting your enjoyment of the game somehow?

It's true that I'm new, and it's true that I play Brawl for fun and not to win tournaments. But all competitive players were casuals at one point, right?

Not all of us were idiots.

I can say that you and everyone else have given me a good understanding of why Smash Balls are currently not allowed in competitive play. I still don't fully agree, but I can accept it at least.

And yet you spout the same inane crap for why we should change the rules.

Meanwhile, can YOU accept that the fault is with you for jumping to several false conclusions about me, instead of blaming me for it?

Yes, I jumped to conclusions. I apologize. Happy?

I'm done with this thread. You guys discuss amongst yourselves more if you want. Yuna can make his rebuttal if he wants but know that I won't reply even after I read it.

As usual... when idiots know they're wrong and have been crushed.

 

[Twin Dreams]

He also gave us the Frigate Orpheon, Brinstar, Donkey Kong's new stage (the new Icicle Mountain) and Wario Ware, Inc. I guess they should all be counterpick stages/on random as well. What Sakurai gave us and what he thinks we should do has no bearing on what we do do. Because first of all, Sakurai is not part of the competitive community, he does not dictate what we do.

Ha ha. Yuna, you said "doo doo."

 

[DeathNote]

Also, while I agree with Yuna for the most part, there is one thing in her past post that bugs me.


Originally Posted by Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat View Post
It's true that I'm new, and it's true that I play Brawl for fun and not to win tournaments. But all competitive players were casuals at one point, right?

Yuna's response: Not all of us were idiots.

So anyone who does not wish to play a game at a competitive level is an idiot? That is a pretty stupid thing to say.

Hey! You have different tastes than I! Therefore, you must be inferior to me in mental capacity....


Pretty stupid logic there.