Why is C-sticking shameful?

[Coonce]

As a Jigglypuff player, it is damn-near a necessity that you have full movement control while throwing out aerials so you can properly bait, punish, and WoP. This can really only be achieved by using the c-stick for aerials. Also, I use up to jump. By this "shameful" logic, I'm gonna have a helluva time up airing without jumping.

 

[Mojohnbo]

I neeeed to c-stick for aerials.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

but can't you see? why do you need to make a button press allow you to follow attacks more quickly? why not simply have less landing lag to begin with? if there were some tangible benefit to NOT L-canceling other than simply startling your opponent with how not flawlessly you play, then there would be depth brought by L-canceling (because there would be a choice for using it vs. not using it). but as it stands the alternative is not a viable counter-choice; it's simply an extra button press for the sake of an extra button press.

You're exactly right and I agree totally. What I meant was that Zipzo shares your views on why L-cancelling is bad design, which he's made clear in a number of places across the board.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Again, not interested in an l-canceling comparison in a thread about the c-stick.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't a valid point, sport.

The skill requirement difference between pushing A+left stick vs c-stick is not some big gap. This is like arguing Z removes player skill because it simplifies L+A. These are very basic level shortcuts that don't fit every scenario better. Want to grab someone while shielding? L+A is a lot more ideal. Want to charge a Smash attack, even a little? Stick+A is going to be a lot more straightforward.

Lol. This goes back to what I said about picking and choosing. You're curbing the argument by stating your own subjective observations as to what's difficult or not. Some people purely use the c-stick because they can't be assed to time their smashes at all (mostly new players), and in those cases the c-stick is acting as a crutch for players that otherwise would not be able to perform them consistently.

It's not just strategic depth. As I've explained at great lengths now, the options c-stick opens up requires a great deal more player skill to execute. Yes, a number of those things are more difficult than l-canceling.

More subjectively biased observations.You've explained that techniques exist. That's it. The difficulty of those techniques should be irrelevant in this conversation. Saying "this isn't hard" or "this is harder" is not quantifiable to consistency among everyone.

I still have no idea what your familiarity is here with what I'm talking about. All I know is you keep trying to place the focus exclusively on smash attacks, when that is only a one part the c-stick as a tool. It's only fair to evaluate the entire picture rather than picking a choosing what to consider.

You are cherry picking and utilizing favoritism to over emphasize the importance of one mechanic in one place, and then alternately you over emphasis the importance of a mechanic that does the opposite in another. The difference is l-canceling doesn't make anything easier, it simply serves to increase your button input count, and the c-stick decreases your button count, lowering technical depth. Citing that the strategic depth of the c-stick is favoritism, and declaring the observable difficulty of those techniques is subjective.

You should be arguing for the removal of the c-stick, but you don't. The reason why is because the c-stick is a neat little tool that provides a few shortcuts to smash attacks and allows for some easy inputs of certain techniques. In the meanwhile, Smash games that utilize the c-stick are not inherently affected competitively. So naturally one can assume that Smash 4 will be just fine without l-canceling. The actual, observable amount of depth lost by losing l-canceling is actually bested by the quality-of-life improvement it qualifies as to thousands of players who wish not to l-cancel. Just as the c-stick is a quality of life improvement for people who wish not to time their smash attacks. You can argue that the c-stick made the game more accessible, and ultimately was a factor in attracting more players, just like the removal of l-canceling will do.

I think regarding the "removal" of L-canceling we are at a misunderstanding. When people say they want it removed I believe most people mean that it should be automatically done. As in, just make character's landing lag equal to what it would be if you actually did L-cancel (as opposed to removing it and virtually many moves are unsafe on block due to high landing lag).

What the argument about L-canceling I've seen in threads is this: When wouldn't you want to L-cancel? The answer? NEVER. So technically speaking, all L-canceling really is, is a skill barrier (some call it an arbitrary skill barrier). So now how about this: Should we have that skill barrier on? I can understand people wanting the game to be easier and more accessible, but then again do you want to make the game too easy? I personally cannot decide whether or not to have the skill barrier on or off and here's why in a video game comparison to another game.

In the newest Street Fighter, many combos are done by "links" meaning that buttons have to be pressed at a specific timing (some of the most rewarding are VERY strict and some aren't). So similarly, if you get a hit, when wouldn't you want to do your full combo (mix-ups aside)? The answer is the same, NEVER. So why not just make it so if you get a hit you auto combo or make the combo's easier to do? Well it's a skill barrier and it really separates the good from the great sometimes. Would the game be worse if there were auto-combos? Would the game be worse if the best combo's were more accessible? I dunno (probably)

But to keep it relevant, IMO really, C-Sticking is not shameful. Play Melee Samus and crouch-cancel down-smash (with the C-Stick) for days!

Unfortunately for all of us, this is incorrect.

I specifically read a gigantic post on the reddit by a professional player about how l-canceling provides actual depth to the game, and thus more is lost than just the opportunity cancel aerial lag. The post was actually titled exactly what you're saying "When people say they want l-canceling what they actually mean is...". This post was by and large backed up positively (if karma is to be observed).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

stuff

I don't know how this conversation derailed but i think the most clear and concise way of making your point is simply saying "regardless of technical capabilities c sticking is a short cut and l canceling is not" there is no way to disagree with this because it is true.

 

[Shiliski]

I think we've completely lost track of not only the thread itself, but also the topic that derailed the thread.

Knowing the timing of when to L-cancel is... still L-cancelling. It's not providing any meaningful strategic options. You can say that it's "technical depth" but it's not really "strategic depth." The thing is... not that many people really care about technical depth. Most people only really care about strategic depth.

Using a C-stick does take away some technical depth, I guess, but who really cares? Nobody cares about that because even if it takes away technical depth it adds strategic depth. There's an actual trade-off to use it. It's situational. The choice to use it or not use it matters.

Meanwhile, the choice to L-cancel doesn't matter at all. It's completely meaningless. The question is never "Should I or should I not L-cancel?". The question is always "Do you know how to L-cancel?".

 

[MoHarp]

I have no shame in anyone who uses the C-Stick. It's a usefull way to pull off moves quickly without having to use the left stick to input a directional move with the possibility of redirecting yourself.

 

[JV5Chris]

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't a valid point, sport.

L-canceling is not relevant to my discussion with you about the c-stick. I'm impartial when it comes to the tech anyways. It continues to be a waste of your time bringing it up with me.

Lol. This goes back to what I said about picking and choosing. You're curbing the argument by stating your own subjective observations as to what's difficult or not. Some people purely use the c-stick because they can't be ***** to time their smashes at all (mostly new players), and in those cases the c-stick is acting as a crutch for players that otherwise would not be able to perform them consistently.

I don't disagree that new players tend to rely on it heavily, but the reasons you give seem questionable. Is this input really so much of a struggle for some that they're driven to the c-stick out of incompetence?

Ok, if someone is not used to playing with a thumb stick + buttons, sure. I'd wager though that for most new to Smash, the c-stick just starts as a convenient way to spam Smash attacks. If it makes up the majority of some new player's ground game, of course they'll gravitate to the yellow nub.

Lets say hypothetically though you are right and gamers exist in notable enough numbers that struggle with these fundamental attacks in Smash Brothers. If it's that hard to pick up the basic game, well then that is is a major design flaw and all the more reason for the c-stick to exist.

You are cherry picking and utilizing favoritism to over emphasize the importance of one mechanic in one place, and then alternately you over emphasis the importance of a mechanic that does the opposite in another...You should be arguing for the removal of the c-stick, but you don't. The reason why is because the c-stick is a neat little tool that provides a few shortcuts to smash attacks and allows for some easy inputs of certain techniques.

There is a cycle here. I give some examples of how the c-stick changes the game both technically and strategically, you choose to ignore it. There's no attempt on your part to address and discredit any of it. It's all just swept under the rug together like it has no relevancy. It's very apparent you have little interest in debating the c-stick's breadth, so I'll do us both a favor and bow out.

On a positive ending note, I hope you do experiment with the c-stick differences if it's not part of your game. Not because I expect your mind will change, but because it'll give you a reason to boot up Brawl or Melee and mess around for a bit.

 

[chipz]

it lets you move one way and attack in the other
in melee its also the best way to wavedash into a smash attack since you're using the directional stick to move

if you're losing to someone spamming smash attacks with c-stick then im not sure how thats anyones fault but your own

 

[menotyou135]

Doesn't the c-stick in and of itself remove technical depth in the same vein that people argue the removal of l-cancelling does? It automates an action that would otherwise take a collection of 2 simultaneous and decently timed inputs in order to execute otherwise.

The "competitive" players sure do oddly pick and choose.

Banning c-stick is not viable. That is the difference.

 

[Meru.]

Doesn't the c-stick in and of itself remove technical depth in the same vein that people argue the removal of l-cancelling does? It automates an action that would otherwise take a collection of 2 simultaneous and decently timed inputs in order to execute otherwise.

The "competitive" players sure do oddly pick and choose.

This is like comparing apples to oranges.

L-cancelling is a tool that requires technical skill in order to enhance an aerial attack by halving the lag of your attack. C-stick is not limited to merely enhancing your moves properties by making your smash attacks come out faster. C-stick is a button map and with button mapping comes considerable flexibility when controlling your character.

I personally have to use the C-stick a lot when playing Peach. Having a separate button for C-stick allows me to float, move back and simultaneously do a Fair by holding jump, moving backwards with my control stick while pushing the C-stick in the opposite direction at the same time. There is literally no way I can execute this without having the C-stick, since I would have to move forward a bit when I input the Fair on the control pad.

This is exactly what button maps are supposed to do. Rather than enhancing the inherent properties of a move, they are supposed to give you more flexibilty by mapping the button on the position of your choice. There is nothing that changed the properties of Peach's moves: her ending lag hasn't changed, her float hasn't become faster and her range has remained the same. I have, however, gained more control over my character's spacing and it has become possible for me to execute certain techniques with my character that wouldn't be possible if I didn't have the C-stick button.

By the way, this is not exclusive to C-stick. You can map pretty much every attack to every button in order the increase the control of your character, including specials, normals, jump, grab etc. The C-stick can even be used as a B-stick if you want it to.

 

[Spoa]

tl;dr People choose to put themselves at a disadvantage as an excuse for their losses or lack of skill

 

[chkenparm]

I don't use the c-stick but wouldn't knock anyone who does. Except my old roommate who would stay in a corner in a 4 person match and spam it with Roy.

 

[JV5Chris]

Very clear argument Yaaay. I hope for the sake of moving this discussion forward you receive a detailed response to the example you gave in support of your points. That utility does apply to every character, but Peach's hover makes the benefits particularly easy to recognize.

 

[Norm]

Anyone one worth their salt in Smash Bro's knows that it's just another part of gameplay. Most people who say it's cheap are new to the series or are just looking for something to complain about.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

You know what scares me? The fact that Smash 4 is being worked on by people who think using the c-stick is cheap...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You know what scares me? The fact that Smash 4 is being worked on by people who think using the c-stick is cheap...

last time i recall. Bill and the tree house gang are not working on the game.

 

[LancerStaff]

You know what scares me? The fact that Smash 4 is being worked on by people who think using the c-stick is cheap...

Bill's just a translator, and it's probably just a joke at this point.

 

[Meru.]

Oops ignore this (pressed reply instead of edit)