Why is C-sticking shameful?

[Gidy]

lmao it's a control option put in by the devs.

 

[Reila]

I didn't know it was shameful. It is just pointless and counter-intuitive.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not really shameful, but in my own experience, it can cause you to use too many instant smash attacks instead of tilts and charged smashes. I got in a very bad habit of using literally only f smashes for most of my moves, but my game got a lot better once I stopped using it as often and changed up my attacks.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

It isnt. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

This, these '14 posters that flooded into the Smash 4 boards like lemmings are just awful. C-stick that **** all day, and be proud.

 

[Naglfarii]

Overgeneralized. I hate edehogging, c-stick is legit.

Nintendo reps apparently said it was shameful as part of their house rules, but so is attacking someone who has fewer stocks than you.

This is like saying it's shameful to ko a pokemon that only has a quarter of his hp left, uh yeah I'm not supposed to let you live.

 

[Wonks]

Personally, having played the N64 extensively, I never adapted to the C-stick with Melee. Sure, it was there, but I never adjusted my gameplay to it. I found it was useful to help newer players compete by pointing it out. I guess, in turn, I thought of the C-stick to be for beginners. Not saying that's the case, it's just the way I perceived it for a while.

(A friend of mine, who's a much better player than I am, uses it; I don't begrudge him--again, I just never got used to it, myself.)

 

[Raijinken]

This is like saying it's shameful to ko a pokemon that only has a quarter of his hp left, uh yeah I'm not supposed to let you live.

That's an entirely unrelated discussion that we will never agree on, and there's no point in bringing it up here. I will leave it at "If I made it to the stage, you didn't kill me at all."

At least the new mechanics make you work for the edgehog.

Wonder if the c-stick will still affect how you fall from ledges in Smash4?

 

[Niala]

I can see why new players would find it annoying, and therefore shame people who use it. C-sticking Smashes is somewhat Smash's equivalent to button mashing in traditional fighters-- and I say "somewhat" because the C-stick remains useful as you learn, while button mashing does not. They're both something new players tend to do a lot in order to win. C-stick provides powerful attacks, and while the use of them is typically quite punishable, new players probably aren't prepared to deal with somebody just using the most powerful moves over and over.

That being said, there's nothing legitimately shameful about using it, and I would think the majority of people would be fine with it.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Bruh do you even C-stick?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

It is just pointless and counter-intuitive.

In what way? I want to know why you think that. As far as I'm concerned C-sticking is intuitive and definitely not pointless. Do you get annoyed when you accidentally perform a dash attack instead of a forward smash (I know I do)? Use the C-stick. Do you want to move in a direction completely different to what aerial attack you inputted with the joystick whilst indeed attacking? Use the C-stick.

Having the "Sakurai control scheme" (few buttons, most actions are just performed by using different combinations of a few buttons) is a double edged sword. On one side, it makes actions easier to memorise. On the other, it can lack precision and actually make inputs more difficult because it offers more possible outcomes if the action is not performed exactly right.

TL;DR - C-sticking minimises risk.Sounds pretty useful to me.

 

[Raijinken]

In what way? I want to know why you think that. As far as I'm concerned C-sticking is intuitive and definitely not pointless. Do you get annoyed when you accidentally perform a dash attack instead of a forward smash (I know I do)? Use the C-stick. Do you want to move in a direction completely different to what aerial attack you inputted with the joystick whilst indeed attacking? Use the C-stick.

Having the "Sakurai control scheme" (few buttons, most actions are just performed by using different combinations of a few buttons) is a double edged sword. One one side, it makes actions easier to memorise. On the other, it can lack precision and actually make inputs more difficult because it offers more possible outcomes if the action is not performed exactly right.

TL;DR - C-sticking minimizes risk.Sounds pretty useful to me.

Pretty much all of this. Even if individual players don't want/care to use it (I'm going to miss having to time my button press to charge my C-smashes in Smash4), having the option to toggle it for preference is great. Much like tap jump being able to be toggled off for certain characters or players' preferences.

 

[Morbi]

I have no idea, I do not personally use the "c-stick" as I can easily control the speed of my Smash attack anyways... unless it is somewhat faster using the "c-stick." In that event, I suppose I should start using it.

 

[Groose]

For some reason there's a debate among the Treehouse staff about whether or not the C-Stick should be legal. Bill Trinen has been against it since the Melee days (this article is from before Brawl was announced), and based on his words at Comic-Con, he's still against it.

Don't worry, though. No one outside of Nintendo will bash on you for using it. None of my casual friends have ever ridiculed one another for using it, and I've never heard competitive players bashing each other about it, either. I think it's just a Bill Trinen thing.

 

[Johnknight1]

People who think this are a bunch of control freaks just mad because they feel insecure about themselves.

Edit: If you actually understand Smash frame data, you'd know that moves come out faster with the C-stick in Melee, Brawl, AND SMASH WII U.

It also is easier to click, and thus optimal if you WANT TO WIN!!!

It's really that simple.

Edit 2: If Bill (aka that guy in the Smash games credits who is credited because he is a mere marketer) but wants to shame all the top Melee and Brawl players, he can line up to kiss their a***s.

Edit 3: In Brawl and Smash 4 the C-stick is additionally useful for buffering. Many top players turn tap jumping off and merely do everything via the C-stick and only move side to side with the control stick. They do this to setup combos, chain grabs, and properly counter attack.

Of course people who don't understand Smash at a deep and comprehensive level (and refuse to learn it) like Bill would say this.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

For some reason there's a debate among the Treehouse staff about whether or not the C-Stick should be legal. Bill Trinen has been against it since the Melee days (this article is from before Brawl was announced), and based on his words at Comic-Con, he's still against it.

Don't worry, though. No one outside of Nintendo will bash on you for using it. None of my casual friends have ever ridiculed one another for using it, and I've never heard competitive players bashing each other about it, either. I think it's just a Bill Trinen thing.

Yeah that just looks like smack talk to me, which we know Bill is more than capable of.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think some people outside Smashboards find it 'shameful'.

And I think know those people suck at Smash, and I would money match them for my house any day of the week.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

1. Please stop with attacking competitive players. It's unnecessary to bring this debate into every thread.

2. There are reasons why you wouldn't use the C-stick to Smash attack, such as charging an attack for more damage/knockback or delaying it. In such cases, the technical depth would not be removed as you would be forced into the "normal" inputs.

3. Since you can charge Smash attacks with the C-stick in Smash 4 (correct me if I'm wrong), there is actually an added technical depth of timing your smash no matter which input choice you pick, so there actually is an increase in such depth despite the lack of an extra button press.

4. Certain AT's cannot be done using the control stick alone. The C-stick again increases technical input by allowing players access to these moves as opposed to not being able to do it at all.

1. I find joy in pointing out the massive hypocrisies of "poser" competitive players who's logic behind Smash 4 being objectively horrible before it's release, is inadequate.

2. That's irrelevant. The point is it removes a form of technical difficulty applied to using smash attacks. Poser competitives spend all day talking about how technical difficulty is important in keeping the ceiling high, with just strategic depth not being enough (Brawl is incredibly cerebral and look how that turned out). If this is not a valid argument to you, then you may never, ever, ever argue for the inclusion of l-cancel on the grounds that it's removal decreases technical game depth, lest you contradict yourself.

3. There is similar depth to l-cancels, such as l-cancelling off of character connects, shields, or air momentum. The timing fluctuates, it is never 100% the same exact timing, so your argument here is null, sorry.

4. A smash attack requires a direction and a button. The c-stick smash requires a flick. An l-cancel requires a trigger push. The c-stick basically removes more technical depth than the removal of l-cancelling does. If you're going to argue that it all doesn't matter as it's all easy to perform, then you're invalidating all competitives argument that l-cancelling amounts to any kind of depth - which is my point in the end anyhow.

For the record, I think l-cancelling is an atrocious mechanic and I'm glad it's gone. I took the devils advocate position to make a point, if that wasn't obvious.

 

[TimeSmash]

For some reason there's a debate among the Treehouse staff about whether or not the C-Stick should be legal. Bill Trinen has been against it since the Melee days (this article is from before Brawl was announced), and based on his words at Comic-Con, he's still against it.

Don't worry, though. No one outside of Nintendo will bash on you for using it. None of my casual friends have ever ridiculed one another for using it, and I've never heard competitive players bashing each other about it, either. I think it's just a Bill Trinen thing.

Isn't this from like 2006? Haha the memories.

Otherwise, the fact that this thread exists is shameful. The C stick makes things like doing a forward air while moving backwards possible. And the fact you can do quick smash attacks is a bonus

 

[Big-Cat]

I used to be against it for different reasons, but I see it as an option really. I plan on using the A button for tilts and everything else on c-stick. Smash 3DS is another issue though.

 

[TimeSmash]

And I think know those people suck at Smash, and I would money match them for my house any day of the week.

House matches to become a thing in 2014

 

[Johnknight1]

House matches to become a thing in 2014

"Yo man, I bet my Barbie house that my Greninja will beat your Falco,"

#20XX

 

[Raijinken]

2. There are reasons why you wouldn't use the C-stick to Smash attack, such as charging an attack for more damage/knockback or delaying it. In such cases, the technical depth would not be removed as you would be forced into the "normal" inputs.

C-stick smashes have been chargable since their creation in Melee, you simply press A at the same time, just like a regular joystick smash attack. While I'd not go so far as to claim it's more useful than joystick smashing, I actually do the vast majority of my smashing with the C-stick, and simply press the A button to charge it when needed.

 

[TimeSmash]

While the arguments here are nice, isn't this about whether the C Stick is shameful to use (it isn't) and not about its actual utilization/helpfulness?

 

[JV5Chris]

I use Z, A and the C stick interchangeably for aerials depending on what I'm trying to do and where my fingers are. Switching almost exclusively to Z for a while helped me time were the jump-cancel grab frames end and the aerial input frames begin. Some things are far better suited for the C-stick like fading backwards aerials, crouch canceled smash attacks, or just quick smashes in general, but at times it does require a greater leap for your thumb.

The c-stick ultimately exists to help make Smash a better experience, so if it feels comfortable and practical then there is no reason to avoid using it.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

I actually never used the c-stick. The main reason why is because it didn't work in Melee's single player modes so I weaned myself off it.

C-stick smashes have been chargable since their creation in Melee, you simply press A at the same time, just like a regular joystick smash attack. While I'd not go so far as to claim it's more useful than joystick smashing, I actually do the vast majority of my smashing with the C-stick, and simply press the A button to charge it when needed.

How many thumbs does your right hand have? -u-

Just messin', but I'm pretty sure it was the Z shoulder button that charged a C-stick smash.

 

[Raijinken]

I actually never used the c-stick. The main reason why is because it didn't work in Melee's single player modes so I weaned myself off it.

How many thumbs does your right hand have? -u-

Just messin', but I'm pretty sure it was the Z shoulder button that charged a C-stick smash.

Z also works, I just use A. I actually contort my hand oddly when I play (Never pay visible attention to it, it just happens) that involves my index finger quickly hitting A while my thumb hits the Cstick. Can't explain it, and it took friends pointing it out to me for me to notice it.

Alternately, I guess it's conceivable that someone's thumb can move that distance in a single frame.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Z also works, I just use A. I actually contort my hand oddly when I play (Never pay visible attention to it, it just happens) that involves my index finger quickly hitting A while my thumb hits the Cstick. Can't explain it, and it took friends pointing it out to me for me to notice it.

Alternately, I guess it's conceivable that someone's thumb can move that distance in a single frame.

Depends on the Smash Attack. Each Smash Attack has its charge start at a different point in the animation. For example, it's pretty easy to go from C-stick to A button for Ike's FSmash in Brawl because the charge is towards the end of its (rather long) startup.

As for me, I used to C-stick all day in Melee to pull out Pichu's BAir while moving forward.

In Brawl, I frequently don't use the C-stick for solo Smash Attacks because I like that "click" sound you get when you start charging a Smash Attack. I also like to hear Pit's "Hyah!" on Down Smash, and he only does that if you charge it for at least a moment. That said, I still C-stick to perform Smash Attacks out of dodges. And of course, Ice Climbers grab tech doesn't work without the C-stick. (Popo grabs > Nana FSmashes like twice while Popo pummels > Popo DThrows > Nana FSmashes.)

 

[Leonyx]

1. I find joy in pointing out the massive hypocrisies of "poser" competitive players who's logic behind Smash 4 being objectively horrible before it's release, is inadequate.

2. That's irrelevant. The point is it removes a form of technical difficulty applied to using smash attacks. Poser competitives spend all day talking about how technical difficulty is important in keeping the ceiling high, with just strategic depth not being enough (Brawl is incredibly cerebral and look how that turned out). If this is not a valid argument to you, then you may never, ever, ever argue for the inclusion of l-cancel on the grounds that it's removal decreases technical game depth, lest you contradict yourself.

3. There is similar depth to l-cancels, such as l-cancelling off of character connects, shields, or air momentum. The timing fluctuates, it is never 100% the same exact timing, so your argument here is null, sorry.

4. A smash attack requires a direction and a button. The c-stick smash requires a flick. An l-cancel requires a trigger push. The c-stick basically removes more technical depth than the removal of l-cancelling does. If you're going to argue that it all doesn't matter as it's all easy to perform, then you're invalidating all competitives argument that l-cancelling amounts to any kind of depth - which is my point in the end anyhow.

For the record, I think l-cancelling is an atrocious mechanic and I'm glad it's gone. I took the devils advocate position to make a point, if that wasn't obvious.

I'm very much aware that you don't like L-cancelling but the point remains: you have brought this debate into multiple threads which causes them to derail into the same conflict over and over again. I'm sure I speak for all players, "competitive" and "casual", when I say to stop it. It brings significantly more harm than good. I've already started to derail this thread, so I'm going to leave it alone after this post.

The main point of my post was to point out that there were reasons why you would not want to use the C-stick, making it different from L-cancels. L-cancels effectively are a necessary button press barrier whenever you aerial attack because there is never a reason not to use it, and their removal also removes that constant technical barrier. The C-stick is not a constant barrier because there are still events in which you will not use it as there are sometimes better options available. Therefore, the C-stick does not remove technical depth since you will still need to use the regular button + stick input in order to have access to those sometime better options, and the removal of L-cancels completely removes that button press. I never argued the difficulty of either technique.

Anyways, to the OP, you can let your friends or competitor decrying your C-stick methods to the reasons others and I have posted for why you would use it and hopefully they'll leave you alone. At the very least, they'll know more.

 

[Renji64]

The only people who hate the c-stick are people who suck. I love to use it to do my aerial attacks.

 

[25%Cotton]

i was watching the nintendo treehouse showing of smash 4 and somebody mentioned "we stick to the basics like no c-sticking" (or something like that) and i laughed for a bit because i remembered that it DID used to be like that. back in the early melee days -- especially before i learned much about the competitive scene -- c-sticking was considered cheap, wasn't it.

i think it's because it was a new feature that wasn't in 64 and the thought was super supported by the game itself (didn't allow you to c-stick in the single-player modes so it felt like c-sticking was intended to be a handicap for new players).

then when brawl came out and c-stick was usable everywhere without any questions asked, i assumed that the mindset had disappeared with it, but seeing that it's apparently still around (on the nintendo treehouse no less) is the reason i laughed... and subsequently cringed really hard.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyway, nowadays when people complain about "c-sticking" or "c-stickers" or "he's just abusing the c-stick!" the reason it's derogatory is not because the c-stick itself is bad, but because the player in question is barely using any strategy except for constantly releasing their stronger (they assume) attacks.

 

[CroonerMike]

I play the "gentelmans" way. No c-stick.

 

[Capt. Butt Stallion]

I only use it for aerials, but I don't see the shame on using it if you're not that good.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

The C-Stick isn't a problem at all if everybody is given access to one. The only controllers that don't have a C-Stick is the Wii Remote, and Nunchuck, but why would you use those?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I actually just started using the C-stick about a month ago. But I don't use it much. I only use it for falling uairs as Ganondorf and to get quick smashes after I wavedash with Luigi. I don't see any problem with it. I have enough things to worry about with constant wavedashing, l-cancelling, spacing. Melee is already hard. Let me make it a little bit easier on myself haha

 

[JV5Chris]

Doesn't the c-stick in and of itself remove technical depth in the same vein that people argue the removal of l-cancelling does?

Quite the opposite in reality:

These are some techniques that can be performed with the C-Stick that cannot be performed using the Control Stick and attack button.

Aerial attacks in opposite directions
Using the C-Stick, the player is able to move through the air in one direction, but input their aerial attack in another direction. For example, a player could move right, but their attack could be inputted so its hitboxes are on the left side.

Smash DI
Smash directional influence can be performed by using both the Control Stick and the C-Stick. By using both joysticks together, the player can SDI at a much farther distance than possible with just one stick.

Aerials without moving
Using the control stick to perform a forward aerial or back aerial will result in the player moving slightly in the direction inputted. However, the C-Stick does not require a direction on the Control Stick to attack with an aerial, so when used with the C-Stick, the player will not move horizontally. Good for countering approach.

(smash wiki source)

 

[Deleted member]

The C-Stick isn't a problem at all if everybody is given access to one. The only controllers that don't have a C-Stick is the Wii Remote, and Nunchuck, but why would you use those?

The way you worded this is almost as bad a shaming c-stick users. It sounds like you would shame someone if they prefer wiimote or wiimote+nunchuck.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Quite the opposite in reality:

(smash wiki source)

I agree with this but this stuff isn't impossible without the c-stick. It's just easier. But I'm not arguing. I'm a c-stick supporter

 

[Aunt Jemima]

The way you worded this is almost as bad a shaming c-stick users. It sounds like you would shame someone if they prefer wiimote or wiimote+nunchuck.

Oh, I thought we were talking about C-Stick in competitive play. I mean, if you're playing casually the Wiimote is fine, but I don't think anybody would try to play competitively with one.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, I thought we were talking about C-Stick in competitive play. I mean, if you're playing casually the Wiimote is fine, but I don't think anybody would try to play competitively with one.

You would be surprised. I've watched some tournament streams with people who use wiimote+nunchuck.

 

[Phan7om]

C-stick is only shameful to people who are new to the game and dont fully understand competitive play or fighting game fundamentals. Newer players are either way to aggro or way to campy, and the way to aggro players will always get hit by the c-stick and complain that they're loosing to someone who is far worse than them. I never understood it, but hey its life. Its like the noob version of wobbling lol.