Why is C-sticking shameful?

[Rocket Raccoon]

It was the people at the Treehouse who called it "shameful." There's nothing wrong with it, it's just a shortcut to a Smash Attack.

 

[LancerStaff]

I always use it for smashes and aerials. In fact, I wish I could disable smashing with A so I don't have to be careful with tilts.

Guess who else thought edge hogging is cheap? Sakurai. Remember the new mechanic? Yeah, I bet you do.

He noticed that more casual players weren't a fan of it and took it out. It was fully intentional as evidenced by the edgehogging bonus in Melee. I'd rather see some form of fighting instead of racing to ledges anyway.

IMO, the C-Stick is not technically deep. In it's basics, if you are grounded it inputs a smash attack for you, if you are in the air it inputs the directional air for you.

Now, if it did something like L-Cancel aerials or auto shield for you after a smash attack, that would be removing technical depth because that is something you have to input after the move.

The C-Stick is very useful for many AT's. For example in melee, crouch-cancel down smashing or doing up-airs without accidentally using your jump. Sure sure, you can learn to do this without the C-Stick but its a tool that is there and it is there for everyone. What's important is that it is there for everyone and every character to use if they wanted to and most importantly, it is not game breaking.

There's depth to L-canceling? O.o I just press L every single time.

You would be surprised. I've watched some tournament streams with people who use wiimote+nunchuck.

You can set smashes to the D-pad, and I imagine that's what most people do. I'm surprised that wasn't the default setting.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I guess these are the same people who thinking pressing up on the control stick is cheap. Jumping should only be done by pressing X or Y.

 

[LancerStaff]

Reminds me of how scrubs in KIU say weapon fusion, the completely intentional and outright required mechanic, is cheap. 'Course, they have no way of telling that you actually fused the weapon you're using, so they typically accuse each other of it when they loose.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Quite the opposite in reality:

(smash wiki source)

I'm sorry but do I have to clarify again that I referred originally to technical depth, not your strategic options that you can count on one hand using the c-stick?

Removing the c-stick would add technical depth to Smash.

 

[Roko Jono]

There's depth to L-canceling? O.o I just press L every single time.

It isn't. I'm just saying that if using the C-Stick also did other stuff for you other than the intended smash attack or aerial it would remove depth.

However, you can argue that moving your shield so that your opponent hits you earlier than expected can mess up your opponents L-cancel. You see high level melee players do this a lot, usually by moving the shield towards and/or upwards to mess the timing up. But L-cancelling itself, nope, not deep

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I guess these are the same people who thinking pressing up on the control stick is cheap. Jumping should only be done by pressing X or Y.

I'd say you have a bigger advantage using X or Y to jump, tap jumping sometimes leads to accidental jumping and can make it somewhat hard to use up-tilt, I've always turned it off in Brawl and PM.

 

[Roko Jono]

I think many of us in here posted this statement that I pretty much agree with:

It is only shameful to new players and to those who don't understand the usefulness that the C-Stick has with multiple techniques in the game. Also it is a "John"

Edit: Also if one of my friends complained about it, which they don't, that would make me use the C-Stick more! Don't we love to have fun with our friends and at the same time see the tears in their eyes.

 

[JV5Chris]

I'm sorry but do I have to clarify again that I referred originally to technical depth, not your strategic options that you can count on one hand using the c-stick?

Removing the c-stick would add technical depth to Smash.

You really believe the c-stick is strictly making Smash easier, don't you?

Boot up Melee, pick Marth, and try consistently executing a short hop + double forward-air while moving backwards. Since this is probably your first time practicing the sequence, I'd love to hear all about how intuitive the c-stick feels when it comes to strict thumb coordination and timing.


Edit: Found a Reddit thread on this very thing. Keep in mind the challenge of getting c-stick aerials out consistently and quickly is not exclusive to Marth. His double forward air is just the clearest example of failing when you don't hit the ideal timing. Just like anything technical, some adapt quicker than others.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You really believe the c-stick is strictly making Smash easier, don't you?

Boot up Melee, pick Marth, and try consistently executing a short hop + double forward-air while moving backwards. Since this is probably your first time practicing the sequence, I'd love to hear all about how intuitive the c-stick feels when it comes to strict thumb coordination and timing.


Edit: Found a Reddit thread on this very thing. Keep in mind the challenge of getting c-stick aerials out consistently and quickly is not exclusive to Marth. His double forward air is just the clearest example of failing when you don't hit the ideal timing. Just like anything technical, some adapt quicker than others.

No, I don't, and it's hilarious that for some reason the point is soaring clear over your head.

I'm drawing a rough comparison to what people sound like when they say that the removal of l-cancelling makes the game worse competitively.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm very much aware that you don't like L-cancelling but the point remains: you have brought this debate into multiple threads which causes them to derail into the same conflict over and over again. I'm sure I speak for all players, "competitive" and "casual", when I say to stop it. It brings significantly more harm than good. I've already started to derail this thread, so I'm going to leave it alone after this post.

The main point of my post was to point out that there were reasons why you would not want to use the C-stick, making it different from L-cancels. L-cancels effectively are a necessary button press barrier whenever you aerial attack because there is never a reason not to use it, and their removal also removes that constant technical barrier. The C-stick is not a constant barrier because there are still events in which you will not use it as there are sometimes better options available. Therefore, the C-stick does not remove technical depth since you will still need to use the regular button + stick input in order to have access to those sometime better options, and the removal of L-cancels completely removes that button press. I never argued the difficulty of either technique.

Anyways, to the OP, you can let your friends or competitor decrying your C-stick methods to the reasons others and I have posted for why you would use it and hopefully they'll leave you alone. At the very least, they'll know more.

The thing is is that he may have technically brought that argument. he still addressed the OP making his post completely valid weather you like it or not.
#annoyinggetsnoticed

 

[JV5Chris]

No, I don't, and it's hilarious that for some reason the point is soaring clear over your head.

So why claim that the c-stick removes technical depth if apparently you know better? After all, some of the harder things to execute in both Melee and Brawl rely on the c-stick. Not in easy ways either. Lots of it is useful though.

I'm drawing a rough comparison to what people sound like when they say that the removal of l-cancelling makes the game worse competitively.

Well that's just a different topic and an uninformed comparison. I understand the confusion though. If you haven't really experimented with the c-stick related techniques you're not going to know that compared to l-canceling it does get more difficult.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

So why claim that the c-stick removes technical depth if apparently you know better? After all, some of the harder things to execute in both Melee and Brawl rely on the c-stick. Not in easy ways either. Lots of it is useful though.


Well that's just a different topic and an uninformed comparison. I understand the confusion though. If you haven't really experimented with the c-stick related techniques you're not going to know that compared to l-canceling it does get more difficult.

Thanks for your concern champ but I know how to use the stick, as everyone says, it's easy, therefore a non-issue, right?

It's so typical of posters like yourself that when you've nothing of any substance to say you just insult your opponents skill level (as if you have any damn clue) as a substitute for anything that would actually be a rational counter-argument.

Buttering up the phrase with "if"s doesn't hide it that well.

That's called an ad hominem by the way.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Alright @ JV5Chris and @Zipzo lets end this here before it escalates anymore than it should you both clearly presented your opinions. Lets not start bashing people's skill level, mental abilities blah blah ect ect.

 

[JV5Chris]

Thanks for your concern champ but I know how to use the stick, as everyone says, it's easy, therefore a non-issue, right?

It's so typical of posters like yourself that when you've nothing of any substance to say you just insult your opponents skill level (as if you have any damn clue) as a substitute for anything that would actually be a rational counter-argument.

I'm not insulting your skill level. Believe me, I could really care less. Just wanted to contribute to the discussion by giving a more complete picture.

It's your call if you want to continue making the comparison now. Know though I'm not going to respond further to any unnecessary questioning of my character.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm not insulting your skill level. Believe me when I say I could really care less. Just wanted to contribute to the discussion by giving a more complete picture.

It's your call if you want to continue making the comparison now. Know though I'm not going to respond further to any unnecessary questioning of my character.

If you both feel you can keep it civil then by all means.
But to input on the conversation. How often dose the need to fair while jumping full tilt backwards? iv never seen this done in any recent tournaments. considering the character that would make full use of such a move like marth why not just b air instead?
*edit* or any tournament for that matter.

 

[LancerStaff]

Both C-sticking and automatic L-canceling are easy ways out of hard (notsomuch L-canceling, you know what I'm saying) imputs. Yet one is liked, one is hated. Why people just don't understand that making things like this simplier doesn't effect the metagame a noticeable amount is beyond me. Keeping things easier makes things more consistent, anyway.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Both C-sticking and automatic L-canceling are easy ways out of hard (notsomuch L-canceling, you know what I'm saying) imputs. Yet one is liked, one is hated. Why people just don't understand that making things like this simplier doesn't effect the metagame a noticeable amount is beyond me. Keeping things easier makes things more consistent, anyway.

I believe the argument arose from the questions of why competitive players argue technical depth with l-canceling while c-sticking dose the exact opposite of that argument but that's okay for some reason.

 

[JV5Chris]

If you both feel you can keep it civil then by all means.
But to input on the conversation. How often dose the need to fair while jumping full tilt backwards? iv never seen this done in any recent tournaments. considering the character that would make full use of such a move like marth why not just b air instead?
*edit* or any tournament for that matter.

Retreating Fairs are a useful tool for Marth when it comes to baiting, or just establishing space with attacks in general. A retreating double Fair is that with more payoff depending on the %. Comes with some added risk naturally though. Approaching double Fairs are a lot riskier, which is typically what happens without using the c-stick. B-air is just a completely different move and not really interchangeable here given Marth is facing forward. Some Marth players use retreating Fairs and double Fairs more than others.

Getting from the jump button to c-stick quickly is a pretty universal challenge to overcome though. Retreating aerials are just useful across the board.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Retreating Fairs are a useful tool for Marth when it comes to baiting, or just establishing space with attacks in general. A retreating double Fair is that with more payoff depending on the %. Comes with a higher risk naturally though. Approaching double Fairs can be a lot riskier, which is typically what happens without using the c-stick. B-air is just a completely different move and not really interchangeable here given Marth is facing forward. Some Marth players use retreating Fairs and double Fairs more than others.

Getting from the jump button to c-stick quickly is a pretty universal challenge though. Retreating aerials are just useful across the board.

sound like it would be easier from a wiiu pro controller. i can't speak to much about marth since i don't main him i really like him though. Im a mario man where Arial c-sticking is much less useful.

 

[Johnknight1]

I'd say you have a bigger advantage using X or Y to jump, tap jumping sometimes leads to accidental jumping and can make it somewhat hard to use up-tilt, I've always turned it off in Brawl and PM.

A ton of top players I know don't even push up on the control stick other than for attacks.

In Brawl I hear this is more common, and that they rely on the C-stick even more than Melee players.

 

[JV5Chris]

sound like it would be easier from a wiiu pro controller. i can't speak to much about marth since i don't main him i really like him though. Im a mario man where Arial c-sticking is much less useful.

Might depend on the stick itself. Part of what makes the GC yellow stick work well for Smash is the low height and lack of a lip for your thumb to snag on. Wouldn't call it a deal breaker though, just a small obstacle.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Might depend on the stick itself. Part of what makes the GC yellow stick work well for Smash is the low height and lack of a lip for your thumb to snag on. Wouldn't call it a deal breaker though, just a small obstacle.

Have you had hand time with a pro control? i don't know if i would snag or not on it.

 

[JV5Chris]

Have you had hand time with a pro control? i don't know if i would snag or not on it.

No, but I do have a WiiU. If the stick is the same as the gamepad, then yeah the GC nub will be easier. Just want to reiterate this is only concerning Smash.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm drawing a rough comparison to what people sound like when they say that the removal of l-cancelling makes the game worse competitively.

Does it sound anything like "This game is boring"?

 

[LancerStaff]

Getting from the jump button to c-stick quickly is a pretty universal challenge to overcome though.

Or you could map jump to one of the shoulder buttons like I do. Who needs two grabs and guards, anyway?

 

[JV5Chris]

Or you could map jump to one of the shoulder buttons like I do. Who needs two grabs and guards, anyway?

Makes sense, but I already have my R set to attack for DACUS attacks.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm not insulting your skill level. Believe me, I could really care less. Just wanted to contribute to the discussion by giving a more complete picture.

It's your call if you want to continue making the comparison now. Know though I'm not going to respond further to any unnecessary questioning of my character.

Implying that I do not use techniques that would otherwise be somewhat necessary to perform well in competitive play is a direct assumption of my skill, it's just somewhat indirect in an effort to not seem like you are insulting the skill of a person, but you in fact are. This is what I said in the other thread about competitives and casuals...how posters insult other players without even understanding that they are.

Road Death Wheel pretty much nailed it. It's a blatant contradiction to the argument made for l-cancelling. You're coming up with detailed semantics about how the c-stick is conceptually different from l-cancel, but can't seem to understand that you're missing the point.

If you are in favor of excessive c-stick usage for all reasons simply because it's there, including those not related to specific useful techniques with certain characters, then you should in turn, under the same logic, not disagree with the concept of simply balancing landing lag around moves instead of using an l-cancel mechanic. They are both applicable as "technical" depth that removes difficulty from an input that is frequently used.

 

[FlynnCL]

C-sticking isn't shameful. It's an extra control option that allows you to do more with your character, and it allows you to have free control over your character in the air. I can retreat as far as I can while putting out aerials as Marth, or I can wobble around while easily throwing out any aerial I want with Jigglypuff.

Freedom like that allows you to further express your playstyle and the ways you approach, or string together moves that otherwise would be difficult with just the A button (like an approaching back-air with Fox/Falco). It's a fantastic tool.

A lot of newer smashers don't see the potential other than excessive smash attacks, and that's fine because I'm not expecting new smashers to even know that a defensive/offensive playstyle really is. The balance of defense in Smash is not only using your shield, but using your moveset in a way where you will put your opponent in a bad situation if they were to mindlessly approach.

Generally newer players are extremely aggressive in playstyle because... what else can they do when they have no knowledge of the inner mechanics? They've picked any character, and now it's time to use their moveset! This is where a lot of players can get extremely bothered by c-stick usage, because if you stand near the ledge and only throw out Marth's forward smash as these new players try to approach you, they're going to have an extremely difficult time getting in.

I've played so many people like this, and they don't even realize you can attack while Marth is stuck in end-lag, or they don't realize to approach with shield and try to grab after the attack is over. c-stick is the quickest, error free way to do smash attacks (aka, the move that'll be happening the most in these sort of matches), of course they're going to get mad if they're getting beat by it, but why should the biggest Smash forum dedicated to information, guides and even tournaments even give time to that mindset? It's negative and promotes limitation.

 

[JV5Chris]

Implying that I do not use techniques that would otherwise be somewhat necessary to perform well in competitive play is a direct assumption of my skill, it's just somewhat indirect in an effort to not seem like you are insulting the skill of a person, but you in fact are. This is what I said in the other thread about competitives and casuals...how posters insult other players without even understanding that they are.

Lets make this simple then, what c-stick techniques do you make use of? I'm not going to judge your answer, everyone plays differently after all. I just want to better understand your reasoning for not recognizing the technical depth the c-stick brings. And please, don't be offended, that is not the intention. You've got my word that I have no interest in your skill level or drawing any meaningless conclusions from it. I'll be the first to admit I'm not good compared to a lot of the better players out there and I'm ok with that.

Road Death Wheel pretty much nailed it. It's a blatant contradiction to the argument made for l-cancelling. You're coming up with detailed semantics about how the c-stick is conceptually different from l-cancel, but can't seem to understand that you're missing the point.

Hate to break it to you but I really don't care about your l-canceling comparison. I more or less just don't find it accurate when you suggest the c-stick is removing technical depth. Besides, what is really lost anyways? If you're referring to the smash attack input, that's one easy interchangeable option or another. The differences are negligible at best. Certainly nothing compared to the technical depth that would be lost with removing the c-stick and all the added options that come with it.

If you are in favor of excessive c-stick usage for all reasons simply because it's there, including those not related to specific useful techniques with certain characters, then you should in turn, under the same logic, not disagree with the concept of simply balancing landing lag around moves instead of using an l-cancel mechanic. They are both applicable as "technical" depth that removes difficulty from an input that is frequently used.

I like using the best options for a given situation based on what works for me. Like I mentioned earlier sometimes I even prefer to use Z in the air. As far as the c-stick goes, yeah it has its place.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Lets make this simple then, what c-stick techniques do you make use of? I'm not going to judge your answer, everyone plays differently after all. I just want to better understand your reasoning for not recognizing the technical depth the c-stick brings. And please, don't be offended, that is not the intention. You've got my word that I have no interest in your skill level or drawing any meaningless conclusions from it. I'll be the first to admit I'm not good compared to a lot of the better players out there and I'm ok with that.


Hate to break it to you but I really don't care about your l-canceling comparison. I more or less just don't find it accurate when you suggest the c-stick is removing technical depth. Besides, what is really lost anyways? If you're referring to the smash attack input, that's one easy interchangeable option or another. The differences are negligible at best. Certainly nothing compared to the technical depth that would be lost with removing the c-stick and all the added options that come with it.


I like using the best options for a given situation based on what works for me. Like I mentioned earlier sometimes I even prefer to use Z in the air. As far as the c-stick goes, yeah it has it's place.

Let me do my best to elaborate.

L-cancel is argued to be a form of technical depth. It provides blatant strategical depth as well but it has actually been suggested that l-cancelling is not thoughtless, it requires timing, which is not a thoughtless endeavor, and it has differing time-based circumstances (such as l-cancelling off a sheild). You could essentially argue that Wave Dashing even becomes muscle memory at some point so let's leave out simplicity of execution for a moment to recognize that l-cancelling creates a button requirement necessary to cancel your lag from aerials which is a frequent thing in Smash.

The c-stick does essentially the same thing in reference to smash attacks but in reverse. It makes the input for Smash attacks simpler (this is the whole reason people ever called it cheap in the first place). I equate a tilt of a stick to be easier than the timed, simultaneous press of two buttons, as not doing anything is easier than having to hit shield every time you land.

Now you can argue that c-stick brings in strategic depth, because it enables you to do certain tactics, but so does l-cancelling. L-cancelling is the reason many follow-ups and combos even exist in the first place, and combo/follow-up play is the absolute epitome of strategic thought in a game.

Many things would not be possible without l-cancelling.

Many things would not be possible without the c-stick.

In conclusion, if removing l-cancelling removes depth, then the presence of the c-stick also lowers the depth.

The point is it's simply ironic, is all. People spend so much time arguing about how l-cancelling is valuable because it creates depth, and yet they gladly swing the c-stick around, all the while actually claiming that l-cancelling is so much more special than anything else in that it harms the competitive potential of smash 4.

The hypocrisy is clear.

I love the c-stick, and I use it all the time, especially as Marth (who arguably gets the most use out of it sometimes), but you can't sit there saying the c-stick is great and then in another thread argue that l-cancelling being gone hurts the competitive potential of the game. It's a contradiction.

 

[25%Cotton]

personally think that removing L-canceling and including the c-stick are slightly different,

since removing L-canceling has virtually no effect (doesn't increase or decrease your options) where including the c-stick allows you to control your character movements and attack directions separately (even if you have lightning fast finger movements you're not moving optimally if you have to tilt the control stick to attack opposite to your movement), thus increasing your options.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

personally think that removing L-canceling and including the c-stick are slightly different,

since removing L-canceling has virtually no effect (doesn't increase or decrease your options) where including the c-stick allows you to control your character movements and attack directions separately (even if you have lightning fast finger movements you're not moving optimally if you have to tilt the control stick to attack opposite to your movement), thus increasing your options.

But l-canceling does increase your options.

 

[25%Cotton]

But l-canceling does increase your options.

how?

you're only options are:
1. press L and experience reduced lag
2. don't press L and experience lag.

the second option has no benefit to you, only leaving you more vulnerable. thus, it's not a viable option.

ok, let's suppose the way the game worked is that the ONLY WAY to control your character is to be constantly holding the Z-button. if you aren't holding the Z-button then none of your button inputs are read by the game except for the start button. let's call it Z-controlling. to say that L-canceling is increasing your options by shortening landing lag is like saying that Z-controlling is increasing your options by allowing you to move at all.

both are artificial and unnecessary.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I think he means that L-cancelling increases your options by enabling you to use following attacks more quickly (which opens up the possiblity for combos that wouldn't be possible otherwise). Also, Zipzo is one of the most outspoken detractors of L-cancelling so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

 

[25%Cotton]

I think he means that L-cancelling increases your options by enabling you to use following attacks more quickly. Also, Zipzo is one of the most outspoken detractors of landing lag so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

i agree with his/her general point but i disagree with the stated logic.

but can't you see? why do you need to make a button press allow you to follow attacks more quickly? why not simply have less landing lag to begin with? if there were some tangible benefit to NOT L-canceling other than simply startling your opponent with how not flawlessly you play, then there would be depth brought by L-canceling (because there would be a choice for using it vs. not using it). but as it stands the alternative is not a viable counter-choice; it's simply an extra button press for the sake of an extra button press.

--> L-canceling is not bringing anything to the table.
--> C-stick brings more control to your movement/attack options.

but yeah, ok, i agree with him/her in the end.

 

[JV5Chris]

Again, not interested in an l-canceling comparison in a thread about the c-stick.

The c-stick does essentially the same thing in reference to smash attacks but in reverse. It makes the input for Smash attacks simpler (this is the whole reason people ever called it cheap in the first place). I equate a tilt of a stick to be easier than the timed, simultaneous press of two buttons, as not doing anything is easier than having to hit shield every time you land.

The skill requirement difference between pushing A+left stick vs c-stick is not some big gap. This is like arguing Z removes player skill because it simplifies L+A. These are very basic level shortcuts that don't fit every scenario better. Want to grab someone while shielding? L+A is a lot more ideal. Want to charge a Smash attack, even a little? Stick+A is going to be a lot more straightforward.

Now you can argue that c-stick brings in strategic depth, because it enables you to do certain tactics, but so does l-cancelling.

It's not just strategic depth. As I've explained at great lengths now, the options c-stick opens up requires a great deal more player skill to execute. Yes, a number of those things are more difficult than l-canceling.

I still have no idea what your familiarity is here with what I'm talking about. All I know is you keep trying to place the focus exclusively on smash attacks, when that is only a one part the c-stick as a tool. It's only fair to evaluate the entire picture rather than picking a choosing what to consider.

 

[Second Power]

I remember waaaaay back I was reading an issue of Nintendo Power. It was smash bros related and had image of Bowser saying "If C-Stick is wrong I don't wanna be right." Maybe that's related?

 

[Roko Jono]

I think regarding the "removal" of L-canceling we are at a misunderstanding. When people say they want it removed I believe most people mean that it should be automatically done. As in, just make character's landing lag equal to what it would be if you actually did L-cancel (as opposed to removing it and virtually many moves are unsafe on block due to high landing lag).

What the argument about L-canceling I've seen in threads is this: When wouldn't you want to L-cancel? The answer? NEVER. So technically speaking, all L-canceling really is, is a skill barrier (some call it an arbitrary skill barrier). So now how about this: Should we have that skill barrier on? I can understand people wanting the game to be easier and more accessible, but then again do you want to make the game too easy? I personally cannot decide whether or not to have the skill barrier on or off and here's why in a video game comparison to another game.

In the newest Street Fighter, many combos are done by "links" meaning that buttons have to be pressed at a specific timing (some of the most rewarding are VERY strict and some aren't). So similarly, if you get a hit, when wouldn't you want to do your full combo (mix-ups aside)? The answer is the same, NEVER. So why not just make it so if you get a hit you auto combo or make the combo's easier to do? Well it's a skill barrier and it really separates the good from the great sometimes. Would the game be worse if there were auto-combos? Would the game be worse if the best combo's were more accessible? I dunno (probably)

But to keep it relevant, IMO really, C-Sticking is not shameful. Play Melee Samus and crouch-cancel down-smash (with the C-Stick) for days!