Why I think Sonic may prove to be top tier.

[Red10]

It's a very simple reason. I think that Sonic's unbelievable speed will make it so players cannot time when to attack or anticipate what the other player will do. When somebody can really take control of Sonic's immense agility, I believe they may become virtually unbeatable.

 

[RickettsZ22]

I believe that your right his speed is great and when someone does hit him him will always have the best chance to get back with his recovery

 

[Suna]

Me,and my friends think Sonic may be high tier...but lot with with the game say he sucks so idk anymore,but it don't matter cuz I'm ether way

 

[Migrainemaker]

True that, but what may be his greatest strength, may also be his greatest weakness. I mean My friends and myself play really haphazardly, so we're destined to end up rolling of the stage... I mean my C. Falcon in melee has the most kills AND the most suicides.... I think Sonic will be awesome to play with tho....

 

[hopp]

I had my 3 hours of play time in brawl lastnight with freinds and g-cube remotes..
My freinds are pretty good at the game and were very good at melee. I was able to keep up with them using sonic and I should just add that Sonic has amazing recovery, amazing areial attacks, and is, imo, an easy character to control, sure he moves very fast but it can be stopped with a short hopp and air dodge or attack.. etc. I think he will be a very competitive char to use and I am for surely maining him =)
that was just a lil' review because I don't doubt sonic at at all.

 

[Red10]

True that, but what may be his greatest strength, may also be his greatest weakness. I mean My friends and myself play really haphazardly, so we're destined to end up rolling of the stage... I mean my C. Falcon in melee has the most kills AND the most suicides.... I think Sonic will be awesome to play with tho....

well i actually have this theory that when you're running with sonic you should anticipate where you'd want him to stop and then stop running with him before you get to that spot.

 

[Circus]

Disclaimer: I generally try not to be a pessimist and I have not played Brawl myself.

Fast running speed and amazing recovery, while still good qualities, don't mean much when you can't get a KO. From the general consensus on the boards and youtube videos I've seen, it definitely looks like the hedgehog has trouble finishing people off. In a game in which killing is the main objective, that seems like a problem.

I'll stick by Sonic through thick and thin, but top tier (and even high tier) don't seem all that likely to me if he can't get people off the stage. Plus tier discussion now is jumping the gun a bit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Disclaimer: I generally try not to be a pessimist and I have not played Brawl myself.

Fast running speed and amazing recovery, while still good qualities, don't mean much when you can't get a KO. From the general consensus on the boards and youtube videos I've seen, it definitely looks like the hedgehog has trouble finishing people off. In a game in which killing is the main objective, that seems like a problem.

I'll stick by Sonic through thick and thin, but top tier (and even high tier) don't seem all that likely to me if he can't get people off the stage. Plus tier discussion now is jumping the gun a bit.

agreed pretty much entirely

using sonic, I can vouch for this, speed is great, but when you can't kill, you have some problems... and having such few kill options can make you rather predictable.

 

[M-mo3]

His advantage is speed, only to be stoped by his ability to k.O. I personally cant jump the gun yet. time will tell and time till we all get SSBBrawls.

 

[RocketDarkness]

Sonic definitely lacks finishing moves, but as we've already seen, he has some neat tricks up his sleeve to counteract that, such as using the spring and homing attack to gimp recovery. I suspect the two spin dashes will also become integral to his playstyle. There are some neat things you can do with it. For example: one match, someone was standing near the edge of the stage. I hit them with a spindash, then jumped at the right time such that it was a 2-hit attack and carried them off the stage with me. Through sheer luck(this time), Sonic was in the absolute perfect position to immediately footstool jump off their head, followed by a spring jump to make sure their recovery was doomed. I haven't had access to Brawl recently, and I usually don't have the option to fool around in training mode, so I haven't been able to test this yet. But it's there.

 

[Zellsfalco]

You cant really say that sonic is not balanced with speed and KO ability.
-->He has great KO ability if u can use a combo that was used previously in melee with Jigg's
AKA "Gay Combo" which was simply knocking him further away from the edge in mid air
only to recover with his great recovery.
-->Also, his Uair is great for a finisher
-->His Fsmash is also great for KO's, so really he will be balanced with both insane speed and tremendous power. And u also shouldnt declare which character will be in which tier... especially if u havent witnessed the full potential of every character's ability.

 

[InSaNiTy]

i will most likely use sonics speed to ***** all the final smashes , i think thats a perk =)

 

[Napilopez]

I dunno top tier, but still.

"I think that Sonic's unbelievable speed will make it so players cannot time when to attack or anticipate what the other player will do."

I think this under estimated, ive seen many aweome cases of Sonic uddenly dashing to impose punishment.

 

[AtomicBucket]

I like to ignore tiers and let the player's skill speak for itself. All characters have the potential to beat the other character in the right hands.

Sonic's speed should definitely come into play.

 

[Napilopez]

I think its also important to note that Brawl is turning out much more balanced then melee. Impresive sakurai, especially with all those new characters.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i will most likely use sonics speed to ***** all the final smashes , i think thats a perk =)

sonic doesn't tend to get the most smashballs though... that's zelda's din's fire and lucario's disjointed hitboxes... but when sonic DOES get the smashball... he wins.

 

[CaliburChamp]

There is always more than one way to KO opponents. Sonic f-air can gimp opponents recoveries by comboing them off the edge of the screen especially on stages like bridge of eldin. Sonic can could use his speed to do a dash and then edgehog opponents who try to edgehog to and grab the ledge, but instead fall to their demise at an early %.
If you think KO potential is the biggest part of this game think again, or just play Ike, Charizard, Dedede, Ganon, DK, Zelda, Bowser, etc.

 

[Deathwish238]

nothing rhymes with circus pretty much said it all. and yes he does RUN very fast but have you seen how slow he becomes when he does his running dash A?? remember shiek in melee i rather have an attack that comes out quick and strong than you running fast and the attack coming out and slowing you down. Top or high tier not very likely from what i've seen. and its true tiers don't really matter if you know what your doing but i bet your going to be frustrated when your fighting your friend's ike and he has like 200%++ damage and you only have like 80% and he gets a lucky hit off and you die. and sonic doesn't have TREMENDOUS POWER!! lol so his KO moves are f-smash...bair...and uair? but his gimping ability is pretty good from what i've seen but thats not tremendous power; tremendous power is ike or king dedede if he would have that he'd be broken, i just wish they could have given him more priority or his special dash moves could come out faster but again im just talking from what i've seen on youtube i have 0% exp. playing the game but i face the facts too.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you think KO potential is the biggest part of this game

but I mean... in a game where the point is to get KOs, it is. that and being difficult to KO yourself... sonic has neither going for him. and before you guys start talking about gimping, play the game against people of equal or greater skill than you and tell me that. or, tell me that when you play your friend and, despite the fact you are outplaying him, the fact that you can't kill him despite all your efforts, and he's killing you at 60% damage.

despite not having played, deathwish is fairly correct. he ain't awful, but the fact that he simply cannot kill makes his bid for any of the higher teirs nothing but a pipe-dream.

 

[Kr3w]

That's the same though I've always had when peopl say he doesn't have any K.O moves.
But still, I think that it's not going to have so much of an impact, because like you said, you can hopefully keep your opponent on his toes with Sonic's speed.

 

[BentoBox]

Theorycrafting fails. Wait till you get the game.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I havent played brawl. Im just giving my impressions of sonic.

and before you guys start talking about gimping, play the game against people of equal or greater skill than you and tell me that. or, tell me that when you play your friend and, despite the fact you are outplaying him, the fact that you can't kill him despite all your efforts, and he's killing you at 60% damage.

All you need is a counter stage and you can practically gimp anyone's recovery, as long as your around the same skill level, the better smasher will beat you regardlessly. And also the more speed a character has, the more opportunities sonic has in gimping someone's recovery. It just takes more skill and more thinking to get a KO with Sonic and timing is definitly the key in this regard.
I'm not saying he is top tier. Its too early to say that about any character. But, I do see more pros than cons pertaining to Sonic.

 

[Pathetiqu3]

Having played the game pretty hardcore over the past few weeks. I have no doubt in my mind that Sonic can quite potentially be the next fox.

Low-ceiling stages tend to make it incredibly easy to do uair combos that ko at incredibly low percentages. His dash attacks having ZERO lag after a connect suggest minor pillaring and high combo potential. His grabs are modest and aid somewhat in his combo game.

He currently has one of the best edgehog games of all the characters. The spring and homing attack devestate most recoveries that NEED to grab the ledge. Certain characters can take the hit though, and they'll be more troublesome. However, his KO game relies more on short combos, kiting the other opponent and drawing them into a bad spot, and taking advantage of his rather good aerial game to ensure KOs. No, he probably won't make them explode, but he can make plenty of characters fall to their doom. This is no different than making KO's with Fox without the usmash.

His attacks are shorter range than I'd like but he can definitely compensate with immense speed like Fox does.


It's no surprise most people find him weak because the game hasn't developed enough to the point where we can take advantage of his strengths.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Having played the game pretty hardcore over the past few weeks. I have no doubt in my mind that Sonic can quite potentially be the next fox.

Low-ceiling stages tend to make it incredibly easy to do uair combos that ko at incredibly low percentages. His dash attacks having ZERO lag after a connect suggest minor pillaring and high combo potential. His grabs are modest and aid somewhat in his combo game.

He currently has one of the best edgehog games of all the characters. The spring and homing attack devestate most recoveries that NEED to grab the ledge. Certain characters can take the hit though, and they'll be more troublesome. However, his KO game relies more on short combos, kiting the other opponent and drawing them into a bad spot, and taking advantage of his rather good aerial game to ensure KOs. No, he probably won't make them explode, but he can make plenty of characters fall to their doom. This is no different than making KO's with Fox without the usmash.

His attacks are shorter range than I'd like but he can definitely compensate with immense speed like Fox does.


It's no surprise most people find him weak because the game hasn't developed enough to the point where we can take advantage of his strengths.

yeah umm... this is pretty much all exaggerated right here... yup... that's what this is.

 

[Lyoncet]

How some people have missed the fact that most of Sonic's kills come from gimping recoveries rather than getting a straight-up off-the-stage KO never ceases to baffle me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

How some people have missed the fact that most of Sonic's kills come from gimping recoveries rather than getting a straight-up off-the-stage KO never ceases to baffle me.

how some people fail to realize that he can't gimp incredibly well still baffles me. It isn't like he's a gimping machine, it's just that it's so hard for him to KO without tring to edgeguard thathe'll probably get most of his KOs by edgeguarding.. but that doesn't make him good at edgeguarding/gimping it just makes him better at that than at straiht KOs

 

[Lyoncet]

but that doesn't make him good at edgeguarding/gimping it just makes him better at that than at straiht KOs

Good; you've stated your recognition that most of his kills won't come from straight KOs. Now we canfinally move beyond "he doesn't have good kill moves."

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Good; you've stated your recognition that most of his kills won't come from straight KOs. Now we canfinally move beyond "he doesn't have good kill moves."

it's like you weren't even listening -_-;;;

 

[Pathetiqu3]

I'd like to thank Sonic the Hedgedawg for replying with meaningful answers instead of just writing me off with cursory remarks with no logical backing. +1 internet.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd like to thank Sonic the Hedgedawg for replying with meaningful answers instead of just writing me off with cursory remarks with no logical backing. +1 internet.

well, conisdering that I've been putting in at least as much time with sonic, and fellow sonic users have been as well. we don't seem to think there's a chance at all that he'll be the next fox... no one n brawl will likely be, but especially not sonic. while a good deal of what you said wasn't an outright lie, it wasn't true either... it's hard to say anything more about it.. your remarks were complete exagerations. sonic can do what you claim to some extent, but not anywhere near as well or as easily as you suggest.

 

[Lyoncet]

it's like you weren't even listening -_-;;;

*facepalm*

The point that I'm trying to get across is that everybody is discovering that Sonic is much better at gimping recoveries than he is at getting straight KOs, which means that your standard gripe of, "yeah, that's a great tech/strat/move and all, but he doesn't have any KO moves so therefore he can't kill and is still a bad character" doesn't make any sense. I never said he was great at gimping, just that he's better at it than getting normal KOs. Not that this should be news to any of us here, but apparently some of us still have to figure it out.

 

[RedrappeR]

There's honestly no point in talking with the guy. He just wants attention at this point. He's added little to nothing to the proceedings almost, and that's even amongst the people who don't like Sonic. And after every positive discovery people make, he just keeps arguing that the other person is wrong because of his playtime. And frankly-- it's getting annoying. He's done on three different boards, and he's obviously not getting the fact that it's pissing people off.

At this point, I'm trying to ignore him as much as all the rabid fanboys yelling out that he's the next fox(*cough*hint*cough*) But honestly, Hedgedawg, I've posted here about 4 times asking you to add to the proceedings, and take things into account instead of treading out the same points, and just blindly negating things with little basic evidence besides playtime. And you choose to ignore it. And it's dumb, because the case that you're stating can be a very valid one, but your handling it poorly.

When you also posted this:

yes, quite a bit, but I didn't play peach and wasn't active in the smash community so, while I've seen most of the advanced techniques in action, I might not know their names... or visa versa... I might know it's name but not have seen it.

A tactic which you were criticizing in these topics earlier-- which we all pretty much agreed on was stupid.

It's not that you CAN'T argue for your point, it's that every time someone DOES argue against you, you retread the same ideas without addressing the new information , and when you do address it, you're literally just stating the opposite point without refuting the earlier posters comments.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm really failing to see what the point of your posta are... but since YOU are currently not contributing anything sonic related to a sonic related topic... I think I'll ignore it.

*facepalm*

The point that I'm trying to get across is that everybody is discovering that Sonic is much better at gimping recoveries than he is at getting straight KOs, which means that your standard gripe of, "yeah, that's a great tech/strat/move and all, but he doesn't have any KO moves so therefore he can't kill and is still a bad character" doesn't make any sense. I never said he was great at gimping, just that he's better at it than getting normal KOs. Not that this should be news to any of us here, but apparently some of us still have to figure it out.

but, you must take into account, several characers are essenially ungimpable... so, I mean, it is a valid argument to say that having no kill moves drastically lowers his abilities. If you want proof, look at melee. Sheik, for example, can get many KOs by edgeguarding and using her bair to hinder returning enemies... and sheik's not the only one, several characters thrived on gimping recoveries... however, the ones that were top teir all also had other ways of killing. Kirby was great at gimping... one of the better characters in the game at it in melee... but the rest of his game was so bad that he was still horrible. take into account the fact that sonic can't gimp near as well as kirby did in melee and you start to see why being able to gimp some really doesn't seem to make him great. Unless he had melee jigglypuff edgeguarding ablities, they wouldn't create a drastic teir change anyway. The point is, while being able to gimp is great, it simply can't replace good, solid kill moves.

 

[RayJT9]

Personally I'd say Sonic's major problem isn't his lack of kill moves, but his lack of priority. =/

--Ray

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a very simple reason. I think that Sonic's unbelievable speed will make it so players cannot time when to attack or anticipate what the other player will do. When somebody can really take control of Sonic's immense agility, I believe they may become virtually unbeatable.

So basically you're saying Sonic needs mindgames to win. Is there anything ELSE about him that's redeeming, like reliable kill moves, combos, y'know? Because running speed actually doesn't mean very much...unless you're able to projectile camp really. Which Sonic CAN'T do.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ ray... this is absolutely correct. I'm not sure whether it's a bigger concern or not, but most of sonic's moves have terrible priority. Unfortunately, these two weaknesses work in tandem meaning that, not only does he not have a great amount of kill moves, but they aren't going to land as often as you'd like.

So basically you're saying Sonic needs mindgames to win. Is there anything ELSE about him that's redeeming, like reliable kill moves, combos, y'know? Because running speed actually doesn't mean very much...unless you're able to projectile camp really. Which Sonic CAN'T do.

reliable kill combos? not really.. his Fsmash won't be comboed into from anything. neither will his Dsmash. that leaves pretty much exclusively his bair. It's not the fastest either, and is the weakest of the three, but at least you can occasionally combo into it from a spindash/spincharge.

edit: wow I misread that as reliable kill-combos rather than reliable kill moves AND combos

to answer your actual question
combos:

-backthrow only kills on stages with walkoff edges or at high damages.
-Dsmash only hits ungurading enemies on the ground ( mean it has a really low hitbox) AND has terrible startup-lag, cool-down lag and priority.
-Fsmash is slow and normally easily avoided.
-bair is pretty solid... not amazing, but it's about all sonic's reliably got

- Dair has slightly over average knockback but is easily punishable and not often practical.
- Fair only has good knockback at the end of the attack, and can be DId in practically ANY direction except down. besides, you'll be using this move primarily to rack up damage... you'll only kill with it at high damages or near a screen edge

-some other moves can kill (nair, Utilt, Uair, homing attack) but pretty much only at VERY high damages and when they have NO move decay to that point.

-his edgeguaring game is pretty good, as is his pressuring ability, but it's not enough to make up for his poor priority for all of his kill moves and his general lack of strength.




-so, in recap: sonic has only two or three real kill moves:
#1 - Bair
#2 - Fsmash
#3 - Dsmash

Neither his Fsmash, nor his Dsmash really count as a RELAIBLE kill move, but both are pretty good, and together they at least constitute 1 kill move. Really, once you play against decent players, you'll see how much trouble he has killing

so, in recap there, yeah, he has some kill moves... but really not many reliable ones

As for combos, he has some nice spindash/charge into uair combos and his dash into Fsmash is kinda an auto combo... but brawl doesn't really seem to have combos like melee or 64 did.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I like to ignore tiers and let the player's skill speak for itself. All characters have the potential to beat the other character in the right hands.

Sonic's speed should definitely come into play.

Posts like these just make me want to break things.


Tiers come into play once its a hgh levelof play. OR when the two people in question have equal skill levels concerning the charatcer they are using.

i.e. Bowser vs Fox

The only time that potential idea comes into play is if those two players are not equal and are not in a high level of play.

Otherwsie a Fox will always beat Bowser (melee)

 

[Black/Light]

I don't have much faith in people so IDK how Sonic will end up.

On one hand he has a whole dead console's worth of fans and fan-boys/girls but on another hand I simply don't think people are really that smart.

In other words, people may massively write him off simply because of the lack of killing moves and priority in his moves well the up-front speedy fighters, once again, take center stage because it's not nearly as hard to understand them ( Fox, Marth. . .IDK about Falco because of his new move set or Sheik because of the suposed nerfs).

But maybe Sonic's fan-base is soo massive that they push his meta-game much more than normal (collectively) by looking at and sucking up the technics in good Sonic vids. Maybe the whole speed demon apporch they take to Sonic games will translate, somewhat, to mastering Brawl Sonic's speed and technics.

Really, it could go either way imo. Maybe StHH repersents the majority of smash fans who may write Sonic off for his down falls or maybe he will be in the minority compared to the new Smash fans that came to be because of Sonic in brawl.

Anyway, I have a strong feeling that the "tier list" will look pretty different when it's stable compared to what we think now. (Thats right, I think ( and hope) Pitt becomes Mid and I think Ikes going to fall pretty fare amoung other things)

 

[RedrappeR]

I'm really failing to see what the point of your posta are... but since YOU are currently not contributing anything sonic related to a sonic related topic... I think I'll ignore it.

Oh no I am. I'm adding onto Lyoncet's posts. And you did it again by the way... post 36.

There's a reason why people are getting annoyed with you, and it's not because you don't think Sonic is a viable character, it's because you're stopblocking posts worse than a bad improv player. It's the same with what you did on the PT board. People tell you one thing, and you just blatantly ignore them(which really doesn't make you cool, just crappy at debate.)

And once again, you probably took my post out of context. Argue progressively. You're not doing that. And it's making these boards stagnant.

If you want any other reason as to why I don't post more on these boards(because it was the obvious "Lolol,I'm gonna turn the argument on him bit"), look to the fact that half of the topics you divulge literally turn into the same argument. And I don't like redundancy, as Ironic as this post may seem.

But you know what, don't take my advice, whatever. Just know that you're not helping as long as you throw the same three points out there and just yell "NO! NO! THAT'S NOT TRUE!" at everyone else who disagrees without evidence.

 

[Deathwish238]

lol im not even going to read all of that ^^^^^^^^^ but i've also noticed that with sonic you can be wooping the other guy and when he's in the air tumbling and you go after him; 90% of the time he just throws a dair or bair or fair and you attack him too. most of the time when sonic tries to hit him he gets hit and goes flying or you both get hit and go flying but either way sonic gets hit because of his crap priority im not saying this always happens but a lot of times. i remember when i used to play with marth in melee vs my cuzin who used shiek i was confident that if he tried going after me and i timed it right, i could hit him with my sword (more priority) instead of him hitting me (might be too confusing i suck at explaining lol). and yea his gimping (ugh i hate this new word lol used to edge guarding) abilities are pretty good and so is his recovery so yea...still gonna main him lol