Why Greninja getting into Smash Bros makes sense (whether you like it or not)

[Ravio_Yo]

Also guys, I think we should refer Greninja as "it", since its gender isn't known. Calling it a "he" doesn't make sense to me.

Most people assume that the starters are male and Jigglypuff is female because 7/8 Jigglypuff's are female, and 7/8 starters are male. Gender ratio don't lie.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I call Greninja female because it has has them curves and hips. Plus my first Greninja was a female named naruto

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Pokemon took up a completely disproportionate space in the Brawl Roster and I don't expect it to be that much different in SSB4. We'll probably get something close to 8 or 9 Pokemon this time, possibly along with other PKMN Trainer starters. It's not really that farfetched as crazy as the number is. If it was Melee days and I told you eight Pokemon were scheduled for Brawl (the 6 in the roster plus Mewtwo and Pluse & Minun) you wouldn't take me seriously. But it almost happened.

 

[ProfPeanut]

Meh, guess I should've checked the internet more. I'm still a little surprised to find out Greninja's almost at Blaziken's level of popularity - I thought that tongue-scarf thing would get him enough detractors to balance it out.

Lucario. Bam. There you go.

Lucario had almost no, if any, contenders from his generation, and was more or less liked the most anyway. That's not to say that Delphox and Chesnaught have anything strong going for them, but then again, I didn't think Greninja had anything strong going for him either. Blaziken's time was past when Brawl came into development (even if Sceptile and Swampert were also pretty neat.)

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Well he's more a clone more along the lines of Wolf really tho tbh, Greninja takes his moves from quite a few characters. I mean none of his moves are original.

• Water Shuriken & Aura Sphere are both chargeable projectiles
• Substitute and Double Team look entirely identical (user vanishes then sweeps from one side)
• Aqua Jet recovery seems to behave identically to Pikachu's Quick Attack recovery
  
• Greninja's teleport/vanish is literally MK's Dimensional Cape reskined (he can even attack out of it)
• Up-Tilt is every over-head sweeping strike we've had before
• Up-Smash is just Greninja's version of Sheik's Up-Smash
• And the rest of his tilts are generic Kicks every other character has

Again I don't mind his inclusion (I still think no Gen 6 Pokemon deserved a spot other than Mega Pokemon but they at least picked a somewhat memorable one) but if he doesn't add anything unique to the game at all, then why is he here? Even Wolf at least had a feral fighting-style; Greninja is a copy-paste of 5+ other characters and moves with add water effects. I don't care how far up Greninja's *** anyone is, they have to admit that is just disappointing.

So I'm guessing you considered Sonic a clone too?

 

[Oz37]

I strongly disagree with this mindset, Sakurai can make mistake, if he put a character that doesn't deserve it AT ALL we shouldn't just accept it.

But anybody's idea of a "mistake" on Sakurai's part is still an opinion, even if it was somehow unanimous. Besides, there are more than enough people arguing with you right now to show just a small sampling of a much larger crowd that is more than okay with this decision.

 

[Katakiri]

Okay children, he's not a clone. He's a character with a great visual design with a completely uninspired or at least unoriginal move-set. He's not a clone. He's just equally boring as one.

 

[Oz37]

Okay children, he's not a clone. He's a character with a great visual design with a completely uninspired or at least unoriginal move-set. He's not a clone. He's just equally boring as one.

Just because his moves may look like they come from other existing players doesn't mean that any of them will control the same way. I almost guarantee you he'll control differently from any of the characters he supposedly borrowed his moves from. Additionally, even if he is a hodgepodge of other characters, the very fact that he takes elements from differing sources and pieces them together into a different character will make him unique.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Meh, guess I should've checked the internet more. I'm still a little surprised to find out Greninja's almost at Blaziken's level of popularity - I thought that tongue-scarf thing would get him enough detractors to balance it out.



Lucario had almost no, if any, contenders from his generation, and was more or less liked the most anyway. That's not to say that Delphox and Chesnaught have anything strong going for them, but then again, I didn't think Greninja had anything strong going for him either. Blaziken's time was past when Brawl came into development (even if Sceptile and Swampert were also pretty neat.)

Oh, I meant most people though Lucario was first on the chopping block this time around (or at least a lot of them did) and they were wrong.

 

[dimensionsword64]

He's unique, popular, and could bring a lot to the table. Literally while I was playing Pokemon Y, I thought of how cool it would be if he got into Smash. It also doesn't hurt that the whole competitive Pokemon scene is in love with him, because of how good he is competitively.

 

[Virum]

Well he's more a clone more along the lines of Wolf really tho tbh, Greninja takes his moves from quite a few characters. I mean none of his moves are original.

• Water Shuriken & Aura Sphere are both chargeable projectiles
• Substitute and Double Team look entirely identical (user vanishes then sweeps from one side)
• Aqua Jet recovery seems to behave identically to Pikachu's Quick Attack recovery
  
• Greninja's teleport/vanish is literally MK's Dimensional Cape reskined (he can even attack out of it)
• Up-Tilt is every over-head sweeping strike we've had before
• Up-Smash is just Greninja's version of Sheik's Up-Smash
• And the rest of his tilts are generic Kicks every other character has

Again I don't mind his inclusion (I still think no Gen 6 Pokemon deserved a spot other than Mega Pokemon but they at least picked a somewhat memorable one) but if he doesn't add anything unique to the game at all, then why is he here? Even Wolf at least had a feral fighting-style; Greninja is a copy-paste of 5+ other characters and moves with add water effects. I don't care how far up Greninja's *** anyone is, they have to admit that is just disappointing.

I'm sorry but this logic is laughably weak and it doesn't make sense when thinking of how a character is as a whole. Isolating stuff and saying "this character is unoriginal because he has a move kind of like this character", especially when some of the examples you stated make no sense (Up Tilt is major fishing and you know it, it attacks you with his damn tongue. Only other character who does that is Yoshi who uses his tongue solely for grabbing as opposed to attacking like a whip. Not to mention most arcing attacks start from front to back, but Greninja's is back to front so not even the arc is the same). A character and how they feel in the grand scheme of things cannot be dictated by isolating singular moves, but by looking at how the moves function as a whole for the character along side the physics and honestly looking at Greninja from that perspective the only character archetype who he's at all similar to is Sheik, but even then due to stuff like his teleport attack and disjoints on his water blade attacks he still manages to nuance himself from Sheik and carve his own niche.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Y'know, my actual thought here is that Sakurai saw Greninja and thought "You know, that one would just be perfect for Smash." and the fact that he was an incredibly popular starter, especially for a brand new gen, just helped it along.

This.

 

[Glaciacott]

I don't know if this matters, but the Battle Theme played in the trailer had a TON of anime influence.
So MAYBE this supports the anime theory?
It's a freaking great remix either way.

I actually think it's the other way around.
Gamefreak figured Greninja would be a popular starter final evo for whatever reason (probably the ninja thing) so they recommend it to Sakurai. Sakurai figures it'd work due to speedy nature and ninja qualities, and overall style it brings to the games.
Meanwhile, Gamefreak pushes more for Greninja being one of this generation's defining pokemon, and one way to do that is giving Ash Froakie as his starter.

I'm personally now looking forward to the flurry of Greninja merchandise from Gamefreak and the eventual mega-evo. It's to me the most exciting of the overhyped starters (Blaziken, Charizard being the two main ones to get pretty much all of the attention.)

 

[Smaugfan]

did not know much at all about Greninja, but all I can say is that Zero Suit Samus and Marth players better watch out! This Pokemon has your number.

 

[CroonerMike]

My question would be why does Mewtwo deserve to be playable aside from the fact he appeared in Melee? I think Greninja deserved to be due to his popularity, or at least where I live thats that way we see it. At my college, most of the students who played the new Pokemon picked Froakie for Greninja. I think he is very different from the typical Pokemon we are used to. I gladly accept him/her and any nintendo character who makes it into a smash brothers game.

 

[Manny Toons]

Greninja certainly comes off as the strangest Pokemon inclusion to me, as I was expecting that, if we were to get a 6th generation rep, it would be a Pokemon more along the likes of Sylveon. One of the more heavily advertised 6th generation Pokes. Other than that, I assumed there would be no true newcomer to the Pokemon franchise, especially not a standalone starter Pokemon. It kinda comes off as biased, and feels... empty. Had we gotten Greninja alongside the two other starters in their own individual evolutionary forms this would've felt more natural. I guess the Pokemon Trainer inclusion conditioned me into seeing only a group of starter Pokemon as a sensible rep, rather than an individual.

 

[Mysteltainn]

Well, I'm sure there's a few reasons behind it.

- Froakie is one of the most popular Generation 6 starters. This is shown in the vast majority of forum polls asking "Who's Your favourite Starter?".
- Sakurai himself may have seen more potential in Greninja for a moveset at the time.
- Gamefreak may have had an impact, but in terms of Smash, I don't think as much as people seem to think. This goes for Mewtwo as well, and the people saying that Mewtwo and Greninja conflict with one another really need to just calm down.
- There are themes associated with the anime - after doing some research, I can confirm that they seem to be pushing Froakie as it stands. I have not watched the anime is many years, but from what I remember, Ash usually has a particular starter that evolves all the way; perhaps this is the case with Froakie -> Greninja in Generation 6.

 

[roymustang1990-]

No,not as all.This Greninja fella is an odd inclusion to me ATM.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Does it need to make sense? I mean, Greninja looks cool and seem to be fun to play as, that is all that matters to me.

Also guys, I think we should refer Greninja as "it", since its gender isn't known. Calling it a "he" doesn't make sense to me.

No it doesn't but a lot of people keep asking "why" he even got in so this thread is meant to answer that.

 

[negativeX]

My question would be why does Mewtwo deserve to be playable aside from the fact he appeared in Melee? I think Greninja deserved to be due to his popularity, or at least where I live thats that way we see it. At my college, most of the students who played the new Pokemon picked Froakie for Greninja. I think he is very different from the typical Pokemon we are used to. I gladly accept him/her and any nintendo character who makes it into a smash brothers game.

Mewtwo is still one of the most popular Pokémon and it has relevancy as the first Pokémon to mega evolve in its movie (was it the first? I think it was).

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Greninja is not the most popular Pokemon in Gen 6. Mewtwo is.

Besides that, Greninja was the #1 choice for XY. He is a ninja with craptons of signature moves (and by craptons I mean 2), meaning the transition should be unique. The fanbase loves the thing and if not 90% of the playthroughs on YouTube with ninja guy would not be. The competitive scene <3's him so much. He is the only ninja in pokemon (SHEDNINJA DOES NOT COUNT). I sat here one day before the direct and made a list of worthy XY representatives. The list only contained Greninja, Hawlucha, and Chesnaught. But that aside

 

[Neo Zero]

I think what people should remember is, while now at the time of his reveal he does deserve it, he was a large hit, the Smash rosters have almost always been decided very early in development. Basically this means that he was chosen far before we even knew what a Greninja was most likely. Remember that for Pokemon, Sakurai will usually go with what Gamefreak wants to promote, and while I'm sure they gave him a variety of 6th gen Pokemon to choose from, the choice at the end of the day came to Greninja for w/e reason.

It's really funny that he turned out to be one of, if not the most popular 6th gen Pokemon, but at the time they wouldn't know that (I'm sure they'd research what they thought would be at least somewhat popular though). The fact that he turned out to be positively well received is just a nice coincidence, does he deserve it? Well, I could say yes or no, but at the end of the day I think how well he's received when the game comes out that will answer that. Look at Roy, I wouldn't say he deserved it back when Melee came out but now he's a beloved character from the Fire Emblem series because of it.

 

[The Suit-less Ace]

I think he is deserving, just surprising if anything. Greninja is one of the most iconic 6th generation pokemon because he is so interesting, most water starters were turtles, penguins, and otters, but this time we get a ninja frog. Don't tell me ninja frogs are not cool, because they are, ninja frogs are f**king awesome. Well, Ninjask is also a ninja, which is cool and all, but does he throw shurkans made out of water?
No he does not. Yes, Aegislash is also a very iconic gen 6 pokemon as well, but I think Greninja would fit better in a fighting game, since he's faster and seems to have more move options. Some people say Genesect and Zoroark should have had this spot, but they are gen 5 and I'd say Greninja is much more popular. With Mewtwo and Jiggs, there's nothing wrong with having 6 pokemon seeing that there were 6 pokemon in Brawl (Pika, Jiggs, Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Lucario). I think they could easily add both of them. However, in an unlikely case Greninja will replace Mewtwo, then no, I don't think he's deserving of the spot.

 

[lobotheduck21]

He's about as deserving as roy, pichu, and lucario were when they were added

being the starter pokemon helps as well

I really don't see the point arguing about it, the dude is in

 

[lobotheduck21]

- There are themes associated with the anime - after doing some research, I can confirm that they seem to be pushing Froakie as it stands. I have not watched the anime is many years, but from what I remember, Ash usually has a particular starter that evolves all the way; perhaps this is the case with Froakie -> Greninja in Generation 6.

almost true, this doesn't happen in gen II or gen V, the farthest he got was bayleef and pignite

 

[Mr.Seven]

Pikachu, Charizard, and Jigglypuff are enough Gen 1 Pokemon. We need more from the later generations. So yes, I think Greninja is deserving of the spot due to his popularity. From the reveal trailer, he's a character I'm going to main as I've gotten into the characters that are fast and agile.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No.

It hasn't.

It's a notable pokemon, but not one I would consider an all-star.

Even Pichu had that going for him.

Still, he looks like he's lots of fun. But mark my words. His inclusion is going to make predicting Pokemon for this game and the next game unbearable.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Keep in mind that this is more so a case of a Pokemon being picked because of the popularity from the fanbase, not so much promotional material being pumped out right now.

Greninja is sort of like Charizard and Blaziken, where it become more popular compared to it's colleges.

 

[BaPr]

I believe he deserves the spot he has (though I would prefer Chesnaught instead, but that is just me). Greninja, Blaziken, and Charizard are so far the favorite starters in the generations they cam from to most people, so it makes sense that he got in. @ Katakiri Can't we be happy that he isn't a direct clone from another fighter? You can't expect every fighter to have moves that no one else has (or at least similar moves).

 

[Forcerounds]

The coolest thing about Greninja is that its popularity grew seemingly independent from The Pokemon Company's meddling. They pushed for Lucario's popularity successfully. They pushed for Zoroark's popularity less successfully. They REALLY want us to like Charizard, and many of us do. They also, like us, have a special place in their heart for Mewtwo. Most recently, they tried to sell us on Fairy-type Sylveon as one possible mascot character for Gen 6 (I really like Sylveon, but I can't speak for everyone else). The methods they used to push these characters were typically through featuring them in movies or making them the earliest revealed characters for the new generation.

Greninja, on the other hand, had none of that assistance. He was revealed within weeks of Pokemon X and Y's international release along side the other starters. He has not had an appearance in the anime in Japan yet (Ash did obtain Froakie, but him getting Greninja is going to take a long time, and isn't guaranteed). He is going to make an appearance in this year's Pokemon movie this summer, but he isn't the star of the film. He's going to appear along side the other evolved starters on the antagonist's side.

So Greninja's popularity is just raw, coincidental popularity. Froakie became the most popular Kalos starter pokemon. Maybe Gamefreak had a little favoritism for the ninja frog when they were designing him for Pokemon X and Y, but the Froakie family was never forced down our throats like Lucario and Zoroark were. WE chose Greninja on our own. That's what makes him special.

 

[Jesus castro]

Definately does NOT deserve a spot. Why do they ALWAYS pick popular pokemon to be in it. Why not add tanky/slow pokemon? There is nothing wrong with having a slow character. Also, they give pokemon a totally wrong representation to their real pokemon stats. Pikachu has base 90 speed. That is definately NOT a speedy pokemon yet in smash, he is one of the fastest. Pikachu has 50/55 attacks in pokemon. Those attacks stats are mediocre in pokemon but in smash, it hits pretty hard. If pikachu hits that hard, I wonder if they add pokemon with a trully high stat like over 130. Same goes with speed. Greninja is very fast with 122. Yet in the reveal video, it didnt seem as fast as I would expect. He does run fast but the attacks not so much.

I would wish other slower/tankier pokemon gets some exposure instead of the kiddie's favorites.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Definately does NOT deserve a spot. Why do they ALWAYS pick popular pokemon to be in it. Why not add tanky/slow pokemon? There is nothing wrong with having a slow character. Also, they give pokemon a totally wrong representation to their real pokemon stats. Pikachu has base 90 speed. That is definately NOT a speedy pokemon yet in smash, he is one of the fastest. Pikachu has 50/55 attacks in pokemon. Those attacks stats are mediocre in pokemon but in smash, it hits pretty hard. If pikachu hits that hard, I wonder if they add pokemon with a trully high stat like over 130. Same goes with speed. Greninja is very fast with 122. Yet in the reveal video, it didnt seem as fast as I would expect. He does run fast but the attacks not so much.

I would wish other slower/tankier pokemon gets some exposure instead of the kiddie's favorites.

Because it's a fighting game? and you don't always have to stay accurate to the original source as much as possible? Anyways some things from the RPGs doesn't always translate well in fighting games.Look at what happen to pt.

 

[Neo Zero]

Definately does NOT deserve a spot. Why do they ALWAYS pick popular pokemon to be in it. Why not add tanky/slow pokemon? There is nothing wrong with having a slow character. Also, they give pokemon a totally wrong representation to their real pokemon stats. Pikachu has base 90 speed. That is definately NOT a speedy pokemon yet in smash, he is one of the fastest. Pikachu has 50/55 attacks in pokemon. Those attacks stats are mediocre in pokemon but in smash, it hits pretty hard. If pikachu hits that hard, I wonder if they add pokemon with a trully high stat like over 130. Same goes with speed. Greninja is very fast with 122. Yet in the reveal video, it didnt seem as fast as I would expect. He does run fast but the attacks not so much.

I would wish other slower/tankier pokemon gets some exposure instead of the kiddie's favorites.

Youre absolutely right. I mean why doesn't Mario lose a stock after being hit twice? Absolutely infuriating they betrayed the source material so blantantly. Don't even get me started on Link

 

[ryuu seika]

One of Pikachu's signature moves is Quick attack. It may not be reflected in his stats but the show did give him a reputation for speed.

 

[Sovereign]

Yes, if only because he's the most deserving sixth-gen Pokemon, and the newest gen has always been represented in Smash. Also, he's the first dedicated water fighter, we've had a ton of fire characters and the Ice Climbers, but never a water fighter. Though I guess Starfy could have fit that bill.

Poliwrath was a Water/Fighter, but wasn't popular enough to make it in.

I like Greninja's inclusion, though I must admit: his tounge being like a ninja scarf kinda creeps me out.

 

[CroonerMike]

Definately does NOT deserve a spot. Why do they ALWAYS pick popular pokemon to be in it. Why not add tanky/slow pokemon? There is nothing wrong with having a slow character. Also, they give pokemon a totally wrong representation to their real pokemon stats. Pikachu has base 90 speed. That is definately NOT a speedy pokemon yet in smash, he is one of the fastest. Pikachu has 50/55 attacks in pokemon. Those attacks stats are mediocre in pokemon but in smash, it hits pretty hard. If pikachu hits that hard, I wonder if they add pokemon with a trully high stat like over 130. Same goes with speed. Greninja is very fast with 122. Yet in the reveal video, it didnt seem as fast as I would expect. He does run fast but the attacks not so much.

I would wish other slower/tankier pokemon gets some exposure instead of the kiddie's favorites.

Isn't Charizard tanky/slow?

 

[Steelia]

All in all, it doesn't matter if we deem him deserving or not. The developers (Sakurai, particularly) decided to make him a part of the roster, so obviously Greninja is deserving in their eyes. Period. End of story.

That's nice and all, but the thread is asking for our opinions. It doesn't matter what Sakurai thinks here. Do YOU think he deserved the slot? Keyword being "you". Clearly Sakurai and company did. But do you?

To answer the question - not... really. Game Freak really should have let the Mega Evolutions act as the 6th gen "reps", since Mega Evolution was pushed so much & acts as a pretty integrated mechanic in X & Y. There weren't really any Pokemon in 6th gen that stuck out as good contenders, no mascots like Lucario was to 4th or Zoroark was to 5th.

Greninja is arguably the most popular starter of X & Y, but compared to the likes of Blaziken, Sceptile, the 1st gen starters, Infernape, etc. etc.... he has little to his name. No big movie appearances (yet), no major roles in the anime, nothing going on in the games that puts him above the rest. I guess the minor buzz around him not looking as bad as the other two final starter evos helped him :d He was definitely the one I chose, but I never would've considered him a contender.

Either way, the more I see of him in action, the more I really like his playstyle. Looks more inspired and interesting than Lucario, at least.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Greninja was rather shocking on my end, because I thought that its best chances of being represented were a Poke Ball role. But seeing as Chespin and Fennekin are Poke Ball Pokemon, Froakie probably would've been used as the Poke Ball Pokemon instead of Greninja.

 

[ryuu seika]

Is he really that much more popular than Honedge/Aegislash? Would they not have made more unique and less expected newcomers?
This isn't rhetorical, I'm asking out of genuine curiosity since everything I've heard has lead me to assume that Greninja's popularity was second to the Aegislash line. I have no real preference myself, since everything after gen 2 held no interest for me.

 

[Banjodorf]

Even if Aegislash was a bit more popular, I've said before that starters are always far more memorable and have a great deal more notoriety to them than your average new gen Pokemon. I'm not saying the Honedge line isn't fantastic here, or couldn't have made a hilarious character, but Greninja has a whole lot of merits to him aside from popularity, and one of them is being a starter.

Now if they had been heavily using Aegislash to advertise, or had a movie around it, then I would be surprised, but I'm not. In terms of moveset potential, I think Greninja also really fit a niche Sakurai was looking for, in a fast, deceptive character with really cool weapon effects. Aegislash at the very least couldn't have been deceptive in the same way.