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Why Greninja getting into Smash Bros makes sense (whether you like it or not)

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D-idara

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The first definition describes him? He's currently, but temporarily popular.
 

Morbi

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People, people, this thread clearly calls for a value judgement, cyberguy64 believes that playstyles uniqueness is what is important in determining the "deserving" of a character while ryu myuutsu believes that popularity determines how "deserving" a character is. No one is right or wrong.

Personally, I just want Mewtwo back, favorite pokemon AND has mind game properties! Aaahhhh yeah!
I like to think that Sakurai is "right," subjective or not, he is the creative director. If anyone is to value how "deserving" Greninja is, it is him. We will get to the point where we don't want him cut, look at Game and Watch or R.O.B. The initial reactions are never the final thoughts on the character. No one has even played as him, at that point, people can make a more reasonable and informed decision... which wont change anything... because he is in the game.
 

Cyberguy64

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He's already grown on me since the reveal. I just wish he wasn't a knock off of such a common character type.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Why can't I expect them to add all 3 starters? They did it in Brawl, and Project M, for that matter. Besides, popularity =/= a good idea. (Just look at the Twilight movies.)
They did, for one character whose gimmick was cycling between those 3. This time is only one character though. Besides, you can't compare that between Twlight. That's just a bad analogy. You can't assume that because something is popular it means it's insta bad. Sure, there are terrible stuff out there that is unexplicably popular but you can't use that argument works in every scenario.


Lucario: Relatively speedy, charge up B neutral, martial artist, thin, humanoid. ZSS: Speedy, agile, charge up B neutral, thin, humanoid. Sheik: Speaks for herself. Mewtwo: Light, thin, humanoid, charge up B neutral. Are you starting to see the pattern here? And those are just off the top of my head. Smash is saturated with this character type. Chestnaut could theoretically offer a playstyle built around being big and moderately heavy, but also sturdy and good at counterattacking and blocking projectiles. We don't have a character archetype quite like that yet.
Those characters have very few similarities between them save for a humanoid figure. Again, that point is really invalid and those "patterns" are just stuff you are making out of nowhere. They play nothing alike nor look identical enough. If the character brings a unique playstyle (which Greninja does) it is a welcome addition.


Why wasn't Blaziken added back in Brawl, despite fan demand and crazy popularity? It wasn't recent enough to be marketable. Greninja is in this to be an advertising push. You admit it yourself below. Some of us happen to care about artistic integrity.
Blaziken had the bad fortune of being in a generation that came and went between Melee and Brawl; he wasn't in the spotlight any longer to warrant him a spot in the roster.
Artistic integrity? Man, I'm sorry but people who tend to say this like to pretend that they are "holier than thou" because they decided to like what others generally don't. Greninja is popular enough in the pokemon community that he is the 7th most used pokemon in online battles, so he is a well liked character. You can't honestly call some off people because they have advertisement; and compared to Lucario, Greninja has had very little, in a gen where the highlight were the Mega Evolutions. Imagine how this would go,

"Hey, what if we add one of the Kalos starters, I've heard that Greninja guy is pretty popular in the pokemon community"
"Yeah, but you know what, let's add Chesnaught. The guy is the underdog of the three which makes him an instant better choice than the cool ninja frog everyone has been talking about"


I'm also afraid that the dev team couldn't give a damn about your "artistic integrity", they are not looking to get creds with you and add the character that you prefer because it is being overshadowed by others. They are going to make the decision to add the one that will make a less amount of people mad, sorf of speaking. Don't let that stop you from keep telling that lie to yourself and believe that you are better than others.

Mewtwo was cut from Brawl, it looks like the non-overhyped (Yeah, I said it. You wanna make something of it?) Kanto starters have been cut from 4, Jigglypuff remains in despite lack of popularity. How can you tell me with a straight face that Pokemon doesn't have roster issues?
Between the pokemon games, those guys except for Jiggs are still pretty popular, so that remains consistent. Also, Mewtwo was planned for Brawl. Point still stands.

So basically, you're saying that Smash should be a popularity contest, and only fan-favorites should get in? Then what the flying fish are Wii Fit Trainer, Mr. Game And Watch and ROB doing here? Why was Fire Emblem included in Melee despite being a Japanese niche series at best at the time? Why is Ridley still not playable?
Never said that, so moving on to pokemon.

And when it comes to pokemon characters may I remind you that there are over 700 poke out there. They are mostly going to choose whoever is big in the media over your favorite, obscure and overshadowed pokemon.

There are several series that I only got into enjoying due to Smash highlighting them when I wouldn't have given them a second glance otherwise. Smash is a place for all Nintendo All Stars to shine, and constant fan-pandering just leads to rehashing the same ideas over and over again.
You call it fan-pandering but tell me, out of gen 6 who would you have chosen? Chesnaught, right? You want them to pander to you specifically which is why you try to make the whole Greninja deal look as dirty as possible.
Rehashing the same ideas? If we are talking about the character's moveset, we've stated how unique he is seen in comparison to the others, so that point is pretty much false.
It's high time that you've learned that the world doesn't revolve around you; just because you prefer others toward him doesn't make him undeserved or less well-liked. It's pointless to throw accusations of "selling out" or wasting moveset potential. Call it whatever you want, but the decision to include him was the smartest in the long run.
Let me explain in terms that will most likely be dying to use: not taking advantage of Greninja's importance in the pokemon media or "not trying to milk it" in order to add someone obscure that the cool, self-righteous crowd with "artistic integrity" want, THAT would have been really stupid.
 
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MoosyDoosy

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Someone probably already said this, but I'm too lazy to read pages 3-6. Having followed competitive Pokes for the beginning of XY and going back into it, Greninja ALWAYS had a LOT of hype. He had Protean which gives more STAB power to each of his moves, decent speed, priority moves, could fulfill a lot of roles, and had good stats all around. Hell, when I was last on Smogon, he had almost 40 pages of discussion while all the other pokes had around 20 at most and the majority only had 5 pages.
 

Road Death Wheel

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The first definition describes him? He's currently, but temporarily popular.
We will never know the future we will see if greninja passes the test of time. Plus the only reason some pokes get really popular (lucario) is because of smash.
 

MoosyDoosy

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We will never know the future we will see if greninja passes the test of time. Plus the only reason some pokes get really popular (lucario) is because of smash.
False. Lucario was pretty popular too. In the Gen he was released (Gen 4) he was known as one of the best physical sweepers, and was almost a staple on everyone's team. In Gen 5 he was a pretty prevalent threat and of course got revamped in Gen 6 where he was the second best physical sweeper when being Mega Lucario. Also the fact that he was incredibly resistant to popular entry hazards like Stealth Rock as well as his typing giving some key resists. He was also pretty special being an Aura pokemon and being able to converse with humans.
 

Road Death Wheel

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False. Lucario was pretty popular too. In the Gen he was released (Gen 4) he was known as one of the best physical sweepers, and was almost a staple on everyone's team. In Gen 5 he was a pretty prevalent threat and of course got revamped in Gen 6 where he was the second best physical sweeper when being Mega Lucario. Also the fact that he was incredibly resistant to popular entry hazards like Stealth Rock as well as his typing giving some key resists. He was also pretty special being an Aura pokemon and being able to converse with humans.
Nothing i said was false like lucario greninja is popular in gen 6 and is on basically everybody's team.
I just said that for part of the reason lucario is popular is because of smash.
 

MoosyDoosy

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Nothing i said was false like lucario greninja is popular in gen 6 and is on basically everybody's team.
I just said that for part of the reason lucario is popular is because of smash.
I'll take your word that that was your intention, but if you look at your post it says "the ONLY reason some pokes get really popular (lucario) is because of smash." ;)
 

Zachattack471

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My honest opinion on Greninja he is modern and i like seeing old pokemon appear so i can fight as a pokemon i grew up knowing. Greninja on the other side looks very fun to play and i am looking forward to using him. His moves are quick and powerful which i like to see in smash bros characters. My only question is why greninja out of all the awesome pokemon. If Greninja did not have an awesome move set i would be on the no side on the argument but he does and i want to play as him so bad. :172:
 

SuruStorm

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While I agree that Zoroark would have been a better, more interesting, and more iconic choice, I think Greninja will have an important place, his playstyle looks interesting and he has a very "cool guy" visual style.
 
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Oz37

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Soooo... now that Ruby and Sapphire remakes are a real thing, anyone else suspicious that Greninja's somewhat sudden inclusion is directly tied to encouraging longevity for XY? Just throwing that out there as yet another item to factor into his "deserving" status (though I don't know which way this news will sway people).
 

MoosyDoosy

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Soooo... now that Ruby and Sapphire remakes are a real thing, anyone else suspicious that Greninja's somewhat sudden inclusion is directly tied to encouraging longevity for XY? Just throwing that out there as yet another item to factor into his "deserving" status (though I don't know which way this news will sway people).
If Greninja's in it, then it's a direct way to increase Greninja's popularity. If not, it might just be a way to keep up the Pokemon hype from X and Y. Either way, it's rather clever. The most powerful Pokemon ever and one of the more popular games getting a remake.
 

Morbi

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Soooo... now that Ruby and Sapphire remakes are a real thing, anyone else suspicious that Greninja's somewhat sudden inclusion is directly tied to encouraging longevity for XY? Just throwing that out there as yet another item to factor into his "deserving" status (though I don't know which way this news will sway people).
Pokemon Z is probably around the corner; well a few months after Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire. So Greninja will probably get more attention around then as well.
 

Snagrio

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I skipped a few pages, but apparently some has said Greninja is nothing but a mix and match of several other characters' movesets. While I can agree there quite a lot of his moves look familiar, Greninja isn't the only newcomer to do this.

Look at Rosalina. She's basically the result of melding the Ice Climbers and Olimar into one entity.

But to be on topic, Greninja was pretty much the only Gen 6 rep that had the most popularity. Aegislash and Hawlucha were definitely close though.
 

Morbi

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I skipped a few pages, but apparently some has said Greninja is nothing but a mix and match of several other characters' movesets. While I can agree there quite a lot of his moves look familiar, Greninja isn't the only newcomer to do this.

Look at Rosalina. She's basically the result of melding the Ice Climbers and Olimar into one entity.

But to be on topic, Greninja was pretty much the only Gen 6 rep that had the most popularity. Aegislash and Hawlucha were definitely close though.
Aegislash and Hawlucha aren't even Pokeball Items either. I feel as though Greninja was quite literally the only Gen 6 character with enough popularity to be playable.
 

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Aegislash and Hawlucha aren't even Pokeball Items either. I feel as though Greninja was quite literally the only Gen 6 character with enough popularity to be playable.
Pretty much. Besides the other two previously mentioned there really isn't any gen 6 Pokemon that even came near Greninja's popularity level. Though maybe they aren't in Pokeballs because they (or at least one of the two) are in Smash Run like Chandelure?
 

ToothiestAura

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Aegislash and Hawlucha aren't even Pokeball Items either. I feel as though Greninja was quite literally the only Gen 6 character with enough popularity to be playable.
I doubt we've seen all of the Pokeball Pokemon, though.
 

Morbi

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I doubt we've seen all of the Pokeball Pokemon, though.
I agree, I don't believe I implied anything to indicate otherwise.

When I say Greninja, literally, my first thought was.

"Oh wow! A Pokemon character I actually want to play with!"
Same, I mean, I never really wanted to play as Jigglypuff or Mewtwo. I just did because they existed. I actually thought that Greninja would be a cool Pokemon to play as.
 

leprechaunlink727

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I haven't really had strong opinions on Pokemon since Gen 2. Greninja is just as unfamiliar to me as about 2/3 of the total Pokemon nowadays, but he seems cool and looks like fun. Squirtle is probably more "deserving", but out with the old and in with the new I guess.
 

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I haven't really had strong opinions on Pokemon since Gen 2. Greninja is just as unfamiliar to me as about 2/3 of the total Pokemon nowadays, but he seems cool and looks like fun. Squirtle is probably more "deserving", but out with the old and in with the new I guess.
Not sure you have a 3ds but x and y is a really good game to get back into pokemon. If you are actually interested.
 

leprechaunlink727

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Not sure you have a 3ds but x and y is a really good game to get back into pokemon. If you are actually interested.
I don't have a 3DS, no. It's also just not a priority right now, I've got lots of other games to play, and I tend to avoid JRPGs nowadays since they're such a huge time sink. If I were to get a 3DS though, I would definitely pick up X & Y. I've seen other people play it and it looks great.
 

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Ok, i'm not going to beat around the bush, the fact that Greninja is a playable character is, in my opinion, the stupidest thing I have seen in this game so far (and i hope it will stay that way).
To me, Greninja is just a face in a crowd of 718 people that doesn't stand out at all. He got in because nintendo wanted to advertise Gen 6 and took the "coolest" looking pokemon, and even if he is better than average he doesn't stand out as much as Lucario, who was way more popular before brawl than Greninja was 2 days ago.
Speaking of popularity, Greninja wasn't even rated once in the "Rate their chances" thread, while Zoroark was rated twice. His support thread (created in november) barely reached the second page before his anouncement, with the last post dating back to the end of january, Hawlucha (another Gen 6 pokemon) did better than that.

All i want to say is that i don't feel like Greninja deserve to be playable, his design isn't that interresting, his role in pokemon X/Y isn't special, and he isn't popular enough to get in.
However, i know some people are happy with his inclusion, so i would like to see how much, and, most important, why.
(i think i made some mistake with my english, sorry about that.)
Greninja is super popular and relevant in the pokemon meta game, mostly because of his ability protein. His design is cool and a lot of people love him. Also Zoroark is pretty much irrelevant no, he isn't used at all, his design isn't all that unique and his time has fat past.
Nintendo are gonna put the Pokemon that Pokemon players wan't to see in, and like. Plus a frog ninja with a tongue scarf is just plane badass.
 

Ultinarok

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I know its likely been said a thousand times, but Greninja is insanely popular. His inclusion caught me off guard, I'll admit, but I never for a second thought he didn't deserve to be in. Protean Greninja practically defines the X/Y meta game, on par with Charizard (whose also in for popularity alone. Don't see anyone complaining about that.) Aegislash and Talonflame.
 

HyrulesLegend

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I think Greninja is just more fit to be in a fighting game then the other two, he's also much more popular.
 

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The popularity reasoning can be debunked since Sakurai himself said at E3 that Greninja was chosen before even X and Y were even finished, so no one could have known which Sixth Genner would be there break-out star or overused Mon.
 

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Oh well if that's the case then it may have been a purely aesthetic choice, as well as potential moves and typing? I mean Greninja definitely has a distinct look.
 

Dracometeor

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As someone who's mostly stayed out of riding the hype trains these days, I don't have much experience with how the arguments go these days. I gave up trying to predict Sakurai's patterns long ago, figuring that any theorycrafting was useless in actually deciding who'd get programmed a playable character slot in Smash Bros. So I mostly just looked for the common reasons for the latest additions: people wanted Mega Man, Wii Fit was really important, Super Mario Galaxy is a landmark game, etc.

Greninja, however, doesn't really have these justifications. I can see that:
  1. Gen 6 is really influential, as well as being an important new step in the Pokemon franchise (although I'd say Gen 5 was equally as important)
  2. The starters this time are pretty cool, and they're also the most well-know Pokemon of any generation aside from the cover legendaries.
  3. Greninja offers a unique playstyle (but so do a lot of Pokemon...)
  4. Greninja is fairly popular

My problem is that his fellow starters, Chesnaught and Delphox, also fall under these criteria. They also belong to Gen 6, they each have their respective fanbases, and they would've made for cool playable characters too. But none of them, as far as I've seen, have the universal appeal that Charizard has to justify his inclusion over his fellow starters. None of them seem to me to have a better reason than the other two for getting in solo.

So basically, I can't help but feel that Greninja just won a three-sided die roll for playable-status, and will likely be the first on the chopping block if SSB5 ever comes around in the next generation. I would, however, appreciate being proven rationally wrong on the matter.
Chesnaught is ugly and doesn't LOOK like a pokemon and would have the most awkward character model for smash bros.

Delphox looks better and shares a somewhat pokemon esque look. However a character that uses "magic" more then pokemon like abilities would be similar to the Mother series reps and Zelda's theme.

Greninja is a ninja. This is a largely unexplored archetype in the Smash Bros. genre. Shiek is the closest that we have, but she was always a split character. Even though shiek is now her own character I think that Greninja adding to the archetype is a nice addition.

Another point to think of is that IF Mewtwo is going to be in the game using Greninja would be a better choice then Delphox due to both sharing psychic typing. Same with Charizard sharing Fire type.

Also think about the different pokemon reps and their archetypes. Pikachu is a small character who packs a hefty kick. Jigglypuff is the lightest and small who has very little power but fast attacks. Charizard is the classic heavy who is large with lots of power. Lucario is the middle weight with more emphasis on power then speed (Similar to Wolf) . Greninja is the fast middle weight with the emphasis being on speed rather then power (Closer to fox/falco).

Delphox and Chesnaught just don't help to fill out the pokemon reps different playstyles as well. At least without changing how the pokemon are in the game
 

JohannFKNFaust

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Probably because Greninja is a ninja, he's meant for hand to hand, that being said, I wish Blazeken was in instead of Charizard but then again, Charizard is pretty iconic.
 

EgeDal

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Because once Fennekin was thought to be another Snivy(extremely popular), though the final form of it looked like an old freaking witch(not a cool one, cool witches exist, but Delphox is not one of them), also Chesnaught is as weird as Pac-man with arms and legs. On the other hand, Greninja looks competitive, tight, also a ninja(cool ninjas exist, and Greninja is one of them). Who doesn't like a frog ninja who can throw water shurikens while tasting his own neck all the time?
 

EgeDal

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Probably because Greninja is a ninja, he's meant for hand to hand, that being said, I wish Blazeken was in instead of Charizard but then again, Charizard is pretty iconic.
I agree, wish Blaziken was there, but there would be too much human-like pokemon, maybe Charizard is good, but Lucario and Greninja on the same roster is a bit meh, a gardevoir would fit veery well instead of Lucario(i love Lucario, but he is not that good enough to be in 2 SSB games, i strongly stand against Jiggly in this case)
 

JohannFKNFaust

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I agree, wish Blaziken was there, but there would be too much human-like pokemon, maybe Charizard is good, but Lucario and Greninja on the same roster is a bit meh, a gardevoir would fit veery well instead of Lucario(i love Lucario, but he is not that good enough to be in 2 SSB games, i strongly stand against Jiggly in this case)
Well... Jiggly is going nowhere and everyone knows it. :rotfl: Lucario, I didn't playhim much but he's not too bad, the thing is though to have fighter, well in my mind anyway, that's what I'm thinking when I say Blaziken LoL don't care much about Lucario though, I'd rather Mewtwo to be honest.
 

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I think what their decision on adding Greninja to Smash was probably because out of the 3 Kalos starters, it fit a bit more than Delphox and Chesnaught (at least in my opinion.)

I mean, they probably could have created a unique, but awesome moveset for Chesnaught (I don't really see Delphox as a fighter fit for Smash, mainly because it's more mage-like than a fighter. They could do the whole Mega-Man thing and only let Delphox use projectiles, but still).

Greninja just seems more popular than the other 2, especially with how much it is being used in competitive play. Chesnaught could be a nice, tanky fighter, but there's a lack of Final Smash possibilities for Chesnaught, unlike Greninja (from what I've seen).
 
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