Why Garchomp Should be OU

Niiro · Feb 23, 2009

Why Garchomp should be OU
Garchomp belongs in the OU tier. He has no better coverage or stats than Salamence (his stats can actually be debated to be worse than Salamence's). His move pool is not much better than Salamence's either, where Garchomp has Swords Dance, Salamence has Dragon Dance. Where Garchomp takes 1/2 damage from Stealth Rock and Salamence takes x2, Garchomp is susceptible to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. In fact, the only two things that Garchomp has over Salamence is his Ground-Typing (which gives Garchomp STAB on EQ and immunity to Thunderwave/bolt and Sandstorm) and his unique speed tier. Garchomp can be compared to a physical version of Latios, who is now being considered for the OU tier. Also, it can be debated that Scizor is just as broken, if not more, than Garchomp. Especially now that Latias and maybe Latios are OU, Garchomp should at the very least be tested to be OU again. A Scizor with the moves Bullet Punch, Night Slash, SuperPower, and Swordsdance can take out most pokemon in the current metagame (except maybe a bulky Intimidate Archinine, Salamence, Gyarados, and maybe a Heatran with a Fighting-type resist berry or bulky Bold Moltres) but those are so uncommon and in the case of Moltres, so weak to Stealth Rock, that they can easily be disregarded. A Garchomp with Yache Berry and the moves Swords Dance, Outrage, Earthquake and FireFang can also be countered by a rather physically bulky Latias with a type resist berry. (If the Garchomp is Adamant, with a Yache Berry and 252 Speed, 252 attack, 4 Hp, a Latias with a Dragon-type resist berry, the set of Timid, 112 HP, 252 Defence, 84 Speed, and 60 Special attack can come in on an Outrage, take at max 65%, outspeeds, and ohko with Draco Meteor.) This just further proves my point that now that there is a Dragon-type in OU that can now outspeed and threaten to OHKO Garchomp in OU, Garchomp's reign over the OU tier is much less threatening.
Hope that wasn't too boring lol. Now time to post your thoughts/opinions xD Also, please back up your arguments with actually calculations please.

c3gill · Feb 23, 2009

Chomp is supposed to be one of the next tested. Soul Dew, Garchomp, and Skymin. There is also talk of making Scizor Uber, but i assume that would be tested after all the others. and it would fail.

0RLY · Feb 23, 2009

While we're at it, lets make Chimecho uber. Clearly, it's huge movepool and godly stats sets it apart from the rest of the competition.

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 23, 2009

I've seen Scizor used in Uber Compeditive play, although against some of the Monsterous Pokemon "Ho-oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia", it doesn't do too hot. But send it against Mew, Mewtwo, Deoxys, Darkrai, and the Uber Latias Twins, as well as maybe Giratina and Lugia (although those 2 would be much harder battles) and it can actually do a pretty good job. It's not like it's unbeatable (the only 2 Pokemon that can make the claim to being the closest to unbeatable are probably Mew and Arceus, and even they can be stoped), a 4x weakness hinders it greatly, and it's not the fastest thing alive. But it can be a viable choice against the right targets.

But that was besides the point. From the other Dragons that fight just as well as Garchomp but are in the OU tier, to other Pokemon with the speed and offense to use stab and other skills, or the defense and offense to tank and return fire, there are several different ways to deal with Garchomp. I think he could stand to be in both sections though, depending on the builds that he uses. He's viable in either area.

Niiro · Feb 23, 2009

Da-D-Mon-109 said:
It's not like it's unbeatable (the only 2 Pokemon that can make the claim to being the closest to unbeatable are probably Mew and Arceus, and even they can be stoped), a 4x weakness hinders it greatly, and it's not the fastest thing alive. But it can be a viable choice against the right targets.

Mew=nothing close to unbeatable. Sorry, but I fail to see how Mew is anything close to unbeatable.

0RLY · Feb 23, 2009

Mew is extremely versatile. Because you can't tell what it's going to do when it switches in, you're forced to guess. Your chances of making the right decision are especially difficult when your current Pokemon in battle can't do much to Mew. If you switch to a different Pokemon, your chances of countering may improve slightly after seeing one of Mew's attacks. If you made the wrong guess, well, tough luck. Once you know what kind of set the Mew is running, it might already be too late.

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 23, 2009

I shouldn't have said unbeatable. I wonder if I was thinking of Uncounterable, and Mew is one of the few that can TRY to make that claim, with Arceus being the other. Mew can be beaten easy, but there's really no way to know exactly what it's doing. With it's stats, it can use nearly any move to beat it's opponents, and it is capable of learning nearly ANY move. Outspeed and overpowered, and it stands virtually no chance, but you really have no idea what Mew's gonna do.

Arceus, with base stats of 120 for every single stat, and the ability to have a stab boosted attack that does a heck of a lot of damage, plus whatever else Arceus decides to pack with him, and he's close to being (uncounterable) too. The word Unbeatable feels better comparing Arceus, and I kinda lumped Mew in with him, since they're both so awesome. But they're just uncounterable.

I need to be careful with what I say. I get in enough trouble at school doing that. I should watch it online. On a random note, what does tl;dr mean?

PraKirJaq · Feb 23, 2009

Chomp really isn't all that threatening with Scizor around. What sets it apart from Scizor though is that there are only two types of pokemon: Those that survive outrage and those that don't. Scizor's Bullet Punch is much, much weaker in comparison. Garchomp is, simply put, easier to use.

If its a Jolly Garchomp, Latios isn't lasting long.

But on your comparison with Latios; I don't want it in Standard. I've only started to test though, so bear with me.

tl;dr

Can it come back to OU? Maybe since Scizor can easily revenge kill it. Do the majority want that monstrosity back? Heck no.

Niiro · Feb 23, 2009

PraKirJaq said:
Chomp really isn't all that threatening with Scizor around. What sets it apart from Scizor though is that there are only two types of pokemon: Those that survive outrage and those that don't. Scizor's Bullet Punch is much, much weaker in comparison. Garchomp is, simply put, easier to use.

If its a Jolly Garchomp, Latios isn't lasting long.

For you're first part, even some of the most bulky walls are 2HKOd by a +2 Base 90 Priority 1 attack backed by a 130 Base attack and boosting nature and Lifeorb. Garchomp does not have any good priority moves, making Scizor just as dangerous, causing alot of the more quicker threats to Scizor to be sniped off.

You, Pink Reaper, and 0RLy all mentioned the second part. Just move some EVs into speed then lol. It was just really a example, and that was a Latias btw.

EDIT: @ 0RLy and the other dood.
You guys are talking about the amount possibilities Mew has, but not how probable a set is. Most people use Mew for the sole reason of Baton Passing, so all you have to do is just Taunt him lol.

PraKirJaq · Feb 23, 2009

oh haha wow. I thought the twins had 100 base speed.

Scizor is a huge threat, no doubt, but I still feel that its more easily manageable than Garchomp. Plus, I still don't feel that it is as centralizing as the former. Salamence is still fairly close.

Niiro · Feb 23, 2009

Garchomp is x4 weak to a priority move, unlike Garchomp, making Garchomp, imo at least, easier to take down, or revenge at the very least.

c3gill · Feb 23, 2009

Mew is pitiful. whack him with a STAB Bug, dark, or ghost attack and he should die quickly.

As for Chomp, the best I can do is compare him to Latios. I think he and Latios both deserve OU.

Name / Speed / Attacking stat (atk or sp. atk) / defenses (sp. then regular) / HP

Garchomp /102 / 130 Atk / 85, 95 / 108

Latios / 110 / 130 Sp Atk / 110, 80 / 80

Salamence / 100 / 135 Atk / 80, 80 / 95

Latios 1 on 1 kicks chomps ***- or Salamence. Their movepools are very reflective of their respective attacking stat- however, Latios has a much more viable off-set then Chomp, with Salamence going both ways. Latios with a choice Scarf is probabally the scariest possibility in the current metagame. Notice the one with the best pure stats? Latios, which we are testing for OU now? If Latios makes it to OU, Chomp will be sure to follow.

choknater · Feb 23, 2009

I wonder if more dragons in the metagame allows my precious weavile to be viable again :D

Probably not since he is ***** by like all of scizor's moves :C

c3gill · Feb 23, 2009

choknater said:
I wonder if more dragons in the metagame allows my precious weavile to be viable again :D

Weavile is my lead <3

Deleted member · Feb 23, 2009

mew can be an ******* with rock polish + swords dance/nasty plot and baton pass to a **** train poke like dialga.

PraKirJaq · Feb 23, 2009

Niiro said:
Garchomp is x4 weak to a priority move, unlike Garchomp, making Garchomp, imo at least, easier to take down, or revenge at the very least.

Garchomp has an easy out to the #2, #3, and #5 most used pokemon. His two STAB moves dismantle practically anything that moves not named Bronzong/Skarmory.

I'm going to say that Magnezone is an easier out than Weavile. Sure, you can run max speed and Jolly, but less than 10% of all Scizor use that. And if they do, they'll be much more frail than usual.

zrky · Feb 23, 2009

I really don't care what happens to chomp, he's cool but never liked him THAT much. Im just happy they put Latias in OU and going along with Latios

niiro, garchomp is a 4x priority unlike garchomp? you mean salamance right?

PraKirJaq · Feb 23, 2009

He meant scizor; Garchomp is weak to Ice shard and there are no priority fire moves.

Niiro · Feb 23, 2009

choknater said:
I wonder if more dragons in the metagame allows my precious weavile to be viable again :D

Probably not since he is ***** by like all of scizor's moves :C

Lmao try counter =D stupid sand stream ruins it tho.

CT Chia · Feb 24, 2009

that wasn't too good of a way to try and debate to make him legal. sry, but you contradict yourself and only made me think even more that he should be uber.
my comments in red:

Niiro said:
Why Garchomp should be OU

Garchomp belongs in the OU tier.

your first reason is your own opinion. this means nothing to anyone else and provides no actual reasoning

He has no better coverage or stats than Salamence (his stats can actually be debated to be worse than Salamence's).

I'm not taking SAtk into account since Garchomp doesn't really need it, but the only stat Salamence wins is 5 more Atk power than chomp. Other than that, chomp has 8 more HP, 15 more def, 5 more sdef, and 2 more speed (all base values). it's not much, but it is a tad better.

His move pool is not much better than Salamence's either, where Garchomp has Swords Dance, Salamence has Dragon Dance.

This is debatable. It depends on what game you are playing. If you play DP, then Garchomp has Outrage which Salamence can not learn. However Platinum decided to give Salamence that move.

Where Garchomp takes 1/2 damage from Stealth Rock and Salamence takes x2, Garchomp is susceptible to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

Stealth Rock seems to be much more common IMO

In fact, the only two things that Garchomp has over Salamence is his Ground-Typing (which gives Garchomp STAB on EQ and immunity to Thunderwave/bolt and Sandstorm) and his unique speed tier.

That's a pretty big positive to be immune to electric (an easy type to predict and switch in on), and STAB EQ is sooo nice

Garchomp can be compared to a physical version of Latios, who is now being considered for the OU tier. Also, it can be debated that Scizor is just as broken, if not more, than Garchomp. Especially now that Latias and maybe Latios are OU, Garchomp should at the very least be tested to be OU again.

Just because other pokemon could be just as broken that are currently legal doesn't mean garchomp should be legal. the point is to take out all broken pokemon. scizor is newer than garchomp as he was essentially introduced in platinum. garchomp has been around for longer and has had more testing time. but yes, im sure eventually all borderline pkmn will be tested (not the BL tier, i mean pkmn between uber and OU)

A Scizor with the moves Bullet Punch, Night Slash, SuperPower, and Swordsdance can take out most pokemon in the current metagame (except maybe a bulky Intimidate Archinine, Salamence, Gyarados, and maybe a Heatran with a Fighting-type resist berry or bulky Bold Moltres)

you list 5 legal pokemon that could be counters to scizor

but those are so uncommon and in the case of Moltres, so weak to Stealth Rock, that they can easily be disregarded. A Garchomp with Yache Berry and the moves Swords Dance, Outrage, Earthquake and FireFang can also be countered by a rather physically bulky Latias with a type resist berry. (If the Garchomp is Adamant, with a Yache Berry and 252 Speed, 252 attack, 4 Hp, a Latias with a Dragon-type resist berry, the set of Timid, 112 HP, 252 Defence, 84 Speed, and 60 Special attack can come in on an Outrage, take at max 65%, outspeeds, and ohko with Draco Meteor.)

u list only one counter for garchomp, a pkmn which is currently uber and unusable.

This just further proves my point that now that there is a Dragon-type in OU that can now outspeed and threaten to OHKO Garchomp in OU, Garchomp's reign over the OU tier is much less threatening.
Hope that wasn't too boring lol. Now time to post your thoughts/opinions xD Also, please back up your arguments with actually calculations please.

im not saying those were the only counters to those pkmn etc, i was just using what you said as an example lol. im personally undecided if chomp should be uber or not, i need to look into it more. though you did forget to mention sand veil, which is a pretty big thing.

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 24, 2009

I don't know whether to agree or disagree with the rest, but about SpecialAttack being Neglectable, it's actually not. I have a hand-made and calculated list of Pokemon with enough Defense to Survive boosted Earthquakes and Outrages, and that return the favor with Avalance (quite a few Pokemon) or Dual Ice-Shard (not as many, but still effective). With the right builds, there's a couple of Paragraphs of Pokemon that can defeat Physical Garchomps. The Special Ones can be special walled, but it's the Mixed Sweepers that I don't have exact counters on, only because I honestly don't know the stats of the best Yachechomp Mixed Sweeper. If I wanted to be cheap and throw some of them Occa Berries, then I could present it. But the Berry seems to be the biggest reason that Chomp is given passage to the Ubers (since there are very few pokemon with the raw power to instantly kill AND outspeed Garchomp with only 1 attack with the Berry involved), and I don't want to have to go there to prove it is easily countered unless it's the last possible choice. It can be beaten without using it's weakness, but I wanted to produce a set of Solid Counters. And depending on the set, there are actually quite a lot. But the dang Mixed Sweepers are so annoying... so many different combinations of stats... ;.;

c3gill · Feb 24, 2009

Chibo- you have a few holes- for the movepools, we assume metagame, so they are basically even, with SD and DD being personal preference. STAB EQ + Ele immunity is nice- but thats not the best part of Chomp. His only weaknesses are a 4x to ice, and 2x to dragon. Now his STAB covers one of those pretty decently- leaving his with only 1 true weakness. Mence shares his weaknesses, but additionally is weak to Rock, and immune to ground, rather than Ele. Mence's ground immunity is nothing to laugh at- it is debatable which is a better immunity- EQ is a really common move. and Lastly, Latias is currently NOT uber. Latias is OU- Latios is Suspect.

Da-D, your kind of arguing for Chomp to be Uber there- if every team is required to have a counter to one particular pokemon, it is probabally overcentralizing the meta game. This is one of the reasons Scizor is on the chopping block atm- so many teams use him its crazy. If memory serves, he was on something like 26% off all teams in January- the most used poke, beating out Salamence by 200 uses (like .1% or something).

And that list of counter? Garchomp has such a mixed attacking movepool that you will be very hard-pressed to find a conuter that always works, if you can find one at all.

While I believe chomp can be placed and played in the OU tier- I accept that it is a debatable topic. I am just waiting for the next generation, and hopefully an Ice/ Dragon typed poke. Frostwyrm from WoW style- could be pimp.

EDIT- This is the site for the numbers in Jaunary in OU tier.

also of note- in ubers, chomp sees about 16%, but his most used item is a choice scarf, at over 65%

Niiro · Feb 24, 2009

Will edit in responces once i get to a compter...

choknater · Feb 24, 2009

Sheesh... Garchomp and Latios both in OU would be pretty **** scary... My best team starts with CB Arcanine for goodness' sake!

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 24, 2009

I see Garchomp being put in OU and Uber, personally. The only point I tried to make was that SpecialAttack on Garchomp isn't completely neglectable, since it does make those that counter it have some issue against it, without having a specialized plan. It can go either way, and deserves more testing until a proper result can be reached. I have some plans of my own that can work, but unless I find the stats that the generic Mixed Sweeper uses, I really would have no idea which Chomp I'm countering, so I couldn't know if I was doing the job or not. It's debatable, and testing should occur by whoever is running the systems before the decision of where it goes is made.

And I miss the days when Arcanine was a beast.... it seemed to go down in Value as time went by... poor Arcanine... It seems that firetypes in general seemed to go down in value over time... If Magmar hadn't gotten Magmortar, I'd have been crying for the poor dude by now. The proud days of the Firetype seem to be a thing of the past...

Niiro · Feb 24, 2009

ChiboSempai said:
I'm not taking SAtk into account since Garchomp doesn't really need it, but the only stat Salamence wins is 5 more Atk power than chomp. Other than that, chomp has 8 more HP, 15 more def, 5 more sdef, and 2 more speed (all base values). it's not much, but it is a tad better.

Yes, but I just said that they are comparable, not nessisarily better (though like I said, it can be debated). Also, I fail to see how Special Attack is not an important factor, because it allow Garchomp to hurt Skarm much more, who could take Garchomps hits reletivly well.

ChiboSempai said:
This is debatable. It depends on what game you are playing. If you play DP, then Garchomp has Outrage which Salamence can not learn. However Platinum decided to give Salamence that move.

Yes, most people here play on shoddy, or have acceses to a Platnuim move tutor (I think)

ChiboSempai said:
Stealth Rock seems to be much more common IMO

Unfortunatly. But I'm just putting that information out there.

ChiboSempai said:
That's a pretty big positive to be immune to electric (an easy type to predict and switch in on), and STAB EQ is sooo nice

True lol. No comment on this. Also, I think STAB on EQ allows Garchomp to always OHKO Metagross. I think. (just some random information to fill up space)

ChiboSempai said:
Just because other pokemon could be just as broken that are currently legal doesn't mean garchomp should be legal. the point is to take out all broken pokemon. scizor is newer than garchomp as he was essentially introduced in platinum. garchomp has been around for longer and has had more testing time. but yes, im sure eventually all borderline pkmn will be tested (not the BL tier, i mean pkmn between uber and OU)

I'm just comparing Garchomp to some of the more common threats in today's metagame (on Shoddy, I'm not too knowlegable about wifi).

ChiboSempai said:
you list 5 legal pokemon that could be counters to scizor

Yes, but as I also said that most of those threats (or at least those variations of the pokemon ) are almost never used.

ChiboSempai said:
u list only one counter for garchomp, a pkmn which is currently uber and unusable.

You must have been gone long lol. Latias was tested for OU and is now admitied.

ChiboSempai said:
im not saying those were the only counters to those pkmn etc, i was just using what you said as an example lol. im personally undecided if chomp should be uber or not, i need to look into it more. though you did forget to mention sand veil, which is a pretty big thing.

Oh yeah, Sand Veil....well I guess one could say the Intimidate is pretty big too ^^.

Da-D-Mon-109 said:
I don't know whether to agree or disagree with the rest, but about SpecialAttack being Neglectable, it's actually not. I have a hand-made and calculated list of Pokemon with enough Defense to Survive boosted Earthquakes and Outrages, and that return the favor with Avalance (quite a few Pokemon) or Dual Ice-Shard (not as many, but still effective). With the right builds, there's a couple of Paragraphs of Pokemon that can defeat Physical Garchomps. The Special Ones can be special walled, but it's the Mixed Sweepers that I don't have exact counters on, only because I honestly don't know the stats of the best Yachechomp Mixed Sweeper. If I wanted to be cheap and throw some of them Occa Berries, then I could present it. But the Berry seems to be the biggest reason that Chomp is given passage to the Ubers (since there are very few pokemon with the raw power to instantly kill AND outspeed Garchomp with only 1 attack with the Berry involved), and I don't want to have to go there to prove it is easily countered unless it's the last possible choice. It can be beaten without using it's weakness, but I wanted to produce a set of Solid Counters. And depending on the set, there are actually quite a lot. But the dang Mixed Sweepers are so annoying... so many different combinations of stats... ;.;

Can those Avalances OHKO Garchomp with a Yache-berry? Also, a list of the Pokemon with the builds listed would be apreciated. Also, I doubt that "throwing in some Occa Berries" would help out Scizor's postion much because I'm pretty sure that a Fire Blast from a Max Special Attack Heatran will OHKO regardless. I can't really understand what you are trying to say in your lat 3 sentences, so if you could clarify them, it would be appreciated.

And @c3gill, I really have nothing to say about your comments.
And this is at Da-d-mon's secound post...

Da-D-Mon-109 said:
And I miss the days when Arcanine was a beast.... it seemed to go down in Value as time went by... poor Arcanine... It seems that firetypes in general seemed to go down in value over time... If Magmar hadn't gotten Magmortar, I'd have been crying for the poor dude by now. The proud days of the Firetype seem to be a thing of the past...

And this is because of the abundance of SR and SS.

Deleted member · Feb 24, 2009

I bet that had Garchomp never been banned, Scizor would still have higher usage statistics right now.

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 24, 2009

Against straight up physical Yachechomp, most of the ones that I have on file have enough defense that they can balance Evs with attack and defense, as to survive boosted or 2 attacks. And the Avalance that follows from that will instant kill Garchomp, unless it didn't attack that turn.

But I will need to come by again and give as many calculated statistics as I can for the Pokemon that I've been working on, and with Cumulatives in Ap Stastics, 5 Point Perspective Drawings in Art, Symphonic Band Testing, Ap Worldhistory Timelines, and Ap Lit Essays, I'm a little hardpressed for time right now.

I will be coming back later with a list of Pokemon that can fight the Physical Sweeping Garchomp, though. For the Physical Sweeper though, am I to assume an Adamant or Jolly Nature, with 4 Hp evs, 252 attack evs, and 252 speed evs?

Niiro · Feb 24, 2009

Assume both lol. Just put down ones that counter the Jolly version, and others that counter the Adamant version. Also list EVs, Natures and such. Oh, and I think Garchomp's most common moveset was Outrage, Swords Dance, Earthquake, Fire Fang, though I might be wrong.

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 24, 2009

'kay. I'll try to get back to you on that. It might take me a while to complete the entire list though.

c3gill · Feb 24, 2009

Da-D-Mon-109 said:
'kay. I'll try to get back to you on that. It might take me a while to complete the entire list though.

Also, post counters as you come up with them! people can help you out and test your counters.....

Niiro · Feb 24, 2009

Those are the numbers for ubers, but if you could get the old data when chomp was OU, it could be more accurate.

c3gill · Feb 24, 2009

PraKirJaq · Feb 24, 2009

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 24, 2009

Thank's for the info, guys. I'll make sure to try to test each counter into how well it can deal with each of these moves. Although it seems like, weaknesses aside, the most power thing Garchomp has is a Sword-Danced Outrage. Also, should I factor in special attack evs so Garchomp can effectively use Fireblast? Or should I always have the Physical Sweeper Sets, since those seem to be the only ones Smogom have used?

c3gill · Feb 24, 2009

Da-D-Mon-109 said:
Also, should I factor in special attack evs so Garchomp can effectively use Fireblast? Or should I always have the Physical Sweeper Sets, since those seem to be the only ones Smogom have used?

If you think you would ever come across a mixed Chomp then yes. (so yes. while his movepool isnt stellar, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast could be the start of a (lol) choice specs or choice scarf "special attack-surprise!" chomp- although a mixchomp seems more reasonable then either of those....)

Da-D-Mon-109 · Feb 24, 2009

The list of applicable counters gets smaller when Fireblast is in play.... the Ice types that get fully guaranteed kills with some of the strategies find themselves more vunerable with Fireblast attacking them.... granted, since they're weak against Fire from everything, handing them Occa berries might give them better chances to wall, and it wouldn't be completely dumb to let an Ice-Pokemon have access to that item... For several counters, Draco-Meteor actually does less than Fireblast does.

I wonder what the sets are for the Special and Mixed attacking Chomps....

PraKirJaq · Feb 25, 2009

....

What viable ice types live through (+2) outrage anyways and can then kill it despite Yache/stealth rocks?

c3gill · Feb 25, 2009

PraKirJaq said:
....

What viable ice types live through (+2) outrage anyways and can then kill it despite Yache/stealth rocks?

Doesnt have to be ice type..... Ice Shard isnt the only way to kill chomp.

and assuming hes locked into a +2 Outrage, i would like to see a variant of Lucario switch in and OHKO with Dragon Pulse.

EDIT- and if he doesnt get the OHKO, he should Extremespeed and that should end chomp.

PraKirJaq · Feb 25, 2009

He was saying that with Fire Blast, many of the icetypes that could easily switch into Garchomp no longer existed. I'm just highly doubtful that there are any pokes that actually can reliably switch into him with SR on the field.

Most Lucarios, iirc, will use HP: Ice over Dragon Pulse. And if they run Dragon Pulse, chances are, they aren't going to be running Extremespeed. So you might be meaning Ice Punch or something?

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