Why does PM AI need so much improvement?

[shairn]

The go-to option is usually uair, only it doesn't work on spacies, whom you just uthrow repeatedly anyway.

 

[KingClubber]

i should be able to set a height point that could work with both, got any tips for the other throws?

 

[shairn]

Can you script according to percentage?
Because Marth's fthrow at 0% is pretty much guaranteed to chain into itself 2-3 times on everyone except floaties, and even then on neutral or bad DI they get caught. After that (around 10%) characters fall down from fthrow which sets up tech chases if they DI right, and dash attack/regrab if they DI wrong or don't DI at all(Spacies excluded). If Marth gets a regrab, the opponent will usually DI correctly afterwards so Marth can mix up with uthrow or dthrow to get a combo started.

To be perfectly honest I don't know too much about dthrow options, and bthrow isn't very useful IIRC.

 

[KingClubber]

i can but dealing with % damage is far to much work because its too character specific, that why its best done with different heights and distance instead

 

[KingClubber]

Here another update.
This one is for @Umbreon

V.2.5.1 Umbreon Edition V.1
-New DI coding
-New Teching Coding

DI's Randomly Left or Right with a Random Up input direction (Based on how far it tilts up.)
Up input direction is Based on how far it tilts up this stick

This One Techs all sorts of things now, Ceilings, Walls, but still no edge tech.

0 - No Tilt
0.1
0.2
0.3
0.4
0.5 - Half Way Tilt
0.6
0.7
0.8
0.9
1 - Full Tilt

@Umbreon tell me what you think of this one DI's

 

[Deleted member]

Here another update.
@Umbreon tell me what you think of this one DI's

i'll look it over when i have a computer lol

 

[hemisphere]

Hey KingClubber, just curious as to how the teching works in this latest version? It doesn't seem to tech the ground very often, so I went to Hyrule Temple at the bottom to test out the teching on the ceilings. When I use Ganondorf's d-tilt at high percents, the AI seems to almost never miss the ceiling tech, which leads me to believe it's not random. Is there a way you can make it do a ground tech more often?

 

[Player -0]

What do you mean no edge techs? As in if someone does an F-Smash and the CPU is on the edge it won't tech?

If so do you mean just for Marth? I've played a CPU that's ledge teched a tipper Marth F-Smash before.

Edit - Speaking of that I (think that I) know in Brawl Marth's Tipper F-Smash has an SDI multiplier of 0 so you can't SDI at all. Does this happen in Project M/Melee?

I think so at least.

 

[KingClubber]

@hemisphere - he'll only tech when he's stunned the reason he isn't tech'img the ground as much as that ceiling is because he is hitting it before the stun runs out. if it were a character with more gravity like fox he'd tech the ground all the time. Almost isn't perfect there a 20% fail chance.

@ Player -0 - yes, ledge tech'ing. anytime you've seen a cpu ledge was pure chance the likeliness is very very low, i'm trying to code it to increase the chance.

 

[Joe73191]

@ EpicFlyingTaco

Make a list of things you’d like to see changed, but don’t expect for them to be fixed in the next version, I’m working on something else that flips 90% of the code in my favor instead of brawl’s code, the PMBR really enjoyed that 20XX Fox even with it’s flaws, because for once it feels like you’re playing a real play, and not really a Cpu.

I really loved that 20XX Fox too. I heard there are projects people have for other character AI like that too. Honestly adding those kinds of AI CPUs is probably the best thing the PMBR can add to PM right now. I know I'd love it. I would be great for absolutely everyone that doesn't have that many people to practice with.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ KingClubber
Might be known, but here are my biggest problems with the current AI:
SD's, to go into detail:
Falco side-b'ing under the stage or not using his double jump before he up-bs
MK using down-b weirdly to go onstage and then fall off and die (probably from Brawl because there the down-b would have sweetspotted)

Umbreon's points are somehow legit, I would make it the way level 9 is just as perfect as possible (zero reaction time etc) and others don't do these impossible powershields etc...
Maybe that should also be a training mode thing, but different AIs for different training purposes. Someone who just wants to destroy you and someone who plays more patient. Probably too much for now though.

DI is probably very hard to program, but random/down+away mixup for combos and standard DI would be very helpful though.
If I'm correct CPU's throw out attacks based on animations you are stuck in (?), and they seem to not recognise some of those. Mainly they whiff grab opportunities and punishs on really laggy stuff like a missed rest.

 

[KingClubber]

 

[turtletank]

Just wanted to let you know that while some of the concerns with AI on this thread are worth looking into, I really appreciate all the work you've done with the CPU's so far. I can't begin to imagine how hard it is to cover such a broad area of coding by yourself.

As for suggestions to improve the AI in 3.0, I'd say the two main ones would be to reduce the SDI modifiers and make different CPU levels more distinct (eg lvl 1 CPU walks a bit and throws out occasional attacks, no/ less DI).

 

[victinivcreate1]

Hey King Clubber

Is it possible that for training mode, you could set the AI to have things like hold shield and or DI away? Like how the SSBM 20XX hack pack has these options?

 

[Phaiyte]

PM AI is the best AI Smash has ever seen.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ KingClubber
What I forgot to mention last time, is there any way to make them use zoning better?
Sometimes the AI does air dodges that would be strategically smart if they wouldn't go offstage, good spacing, bad zoning
Same with a few whiffed edgeguards, where they want to get any followup they can (as you would do onstage) and suicide while KOing you, too, instead they could have focused on the edgeguard. Edgeguards are too brawl-style, too much onstage (charging smashes and stuff), not enough ledgehogging, and maybe a few more safe dropzone aerials.

And the second thing would be spacing while using projectiles, sometimes they walk in front of me and try to use a projectile, some kind of danger-tracking where projectiles would be unsafe would help.

I really appreciate that you take the feedback from the community and good luck programming the AI

 

[KingClubber]

I'm working on redoing how ai works, i thought i'd be farther along than where i am currently by now but things are simply going slow. Not going to say some of it isn't my own fault as i do get bored, or spend to much time trying to fix something that isn't that important. I really want to give you guys some Cpu's that aren't wasting your time and will help prepare you for real players but working on ever character and trying to add stuff that you'd experience in a real match take so much time cause every character is different.

Might have a change of plan and just do selective characters, but all i'm going get is complaints and more vids of cpu's failing.
Again.
Again.

**** it, after what ever comes next i'm going to let you guys fight over it.
So be prepared.

 

[PlateProp]

I'm working on redoing how ai works, i thought i'd be farther along than where i am currently by now but things are simply going slow. Not going to say some of it isn't my own fault as i do get bored, or spend to much time trying to fix something that isn't that important. I really want to give you guys some Cpu's that aren't wasting your time and will help prepare you for real players but working on ever character and trying to add stuff that you'd experience in a real match take so much time cause every character is different.

Might have a change of plan and just do selective characters, but all i'm going get is complaints and more vids of cpu's failing.
Again.
Again.

**** it, after what ever comes next i'm going to let you guys fight over it.
So be prepared.

Is the 20xx fox ai out on the net? Or was that only something Zero got?
I'd really like to play against insane Fox

 

[KingClubber]

Zero was hosting Cpu tournaments, i gave it to him to test for public reaction. That fox isn't even finished. There won't be a public release until the next update.

 

[PlateProp]

Alright, I was just curious.

 

[Joe73191]

The next update is going to have the AI 20XX Fox!?!?!? AWESOME

 

[proxibomb]

It all depends on skill. If you're an early player of the competitive scene, and you play against level 1s and 2s, it's quite boring. Training for competitive matches though, I find the AI quite fine at levels 5-9. There are some flaws of course, but you have to admit this is the best AI ever scene in any Smash game.

 

[EpicFlyingTaco]

@ EpicFlyingTaco


Why does PM AI suck?


There are many answers to that, 85% of the code is still ran by brawl’s code, PM is always changing so when something i’ve worked on has been changed, or is running on brawl code and the change doesn’t apply to the written code the AI doesn’t correct itself, because they don’t learn. I’m Lazy, and mostly code by myself.


Punishing and Platforms


AI don’t understand punishing, it understands “If they do that, i do this” but that doesn’t always work because smash has a lot of freedom to cause error. And AI also don’t know what a platform is really, they think of them as a part of the stage. Which is why i only focus on working on them with tournament viable stages.


Technical skill vs SD’s


Still trying to fix this, hard because each character is meaning i have to start over after fixing another, gets annoying and boring very fast. The only reason this isn’t a focus is because i trying to get more things done, progress can’t be put on hold just to fix this.

Problems with AI


Make a list of things you’d like to see changed, but don’t expect for them to be fixed in the next version, I’m working on something else that flips 90% of the code in my favor instead of brawl’s code, the PMBR really enjoyed that 20XX Fox even with it’s flaws, because for once it feels like you’re playing a real play, and not really a Cpu.


@Tink-er in the Kitchen


Tell that to Armada


@Umbreon


Yes, Yes, I know of your hatred, why don’t you write me a list of everything and we can go over everything together


-


I’m thinking of doing another project for you guys, but i really don’t feel like wasting time explaining everything like last time. So i guess i’m going to to give you a choice.


Marth, Roy, or Ike.

I've been away from this forum for a while, been doing other things. But anyway for being only one person working on the AI, your doing a really good job, its just that it could always be better, and I just get angry really easily. Sorry about that. Anyway, here's some things that could be improved.

The constant SDing. I just needs to stop. If there's anything you can do about it, please do.

Better punishes. Yes, I know you just said that AI doesn't understand punishing, but I'm talking about the very basic ones. Like when I miss a rest with Jiggs.

Other than that, there's nothing really on my mind right now that you could improve. If I think of something else, I'll tell you. Thanks. And by the way, I vote Marth.

 

[Mr.Random]

I really loved that 20XX Fox too. I heard there are projects people have for other character AI like that too. Honestly adding those kinds of AI CPUs is probably the best thing the PMBR can add to PM right now. I know I'd love it. I would be great for absolutely everyone that doesn't have that many people to practice with.

Is there any links or videos of the 20XX Fox? Can't find it anywhere.

 

[Joe73191]

Is there any links or videos of the 20XX Fox? Can't find it anywhere.

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/520959769

The 20XX Fox AI starts at about 2 hours and 30 min in.

 

[Mr.Random]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/520959769

The 20XX Fox AI starts at about 2 hours and 30 min in.

That is the craziest thing I've ever seen. Perfect side b stalling. My god who programmed this?

 

[Player -0]

That is the craziest thing I've ever seen. Perfect side b stalling. My god who programmed this?

The guy that programs everything.

No respect for King Clubber.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yo program a Pikachu Ai to do the quick attack cancel footstool infinite

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ KingClubber

I have an idea, and I know its easier said that done, and won't likely be done for PM 3.5. But hear me out

How about you make the regular AI suck right? Then after level nine you have a players name. Lets go with Snake.

You have all the levels. Then after Nasty, you have PROF. This AI would be based off Professor Pro's playstyle with a few tricks used by other snakes (Rolex stuff) thrown in.

Basically you could add an extra level that models the top players of said character. If the characters top playes are in Melee, then that'd work too.
Fox-Mango/Mew2King/Hax
Falco-PPMD/Mango/Westballz
Marth-Mew2King/Ken
Kirby-Chudat
Falcon-Hax
Sonic-Wizzrobe
Meta Knight-Plup/Gurukid/Infinity
Ike-Ally
Mewtwo-Emukiller/Frozen
Diddy Kong-Junebug/NinjaLink

So on so forth.

 

[KingClubber]

Can't do. Sorry.

 

[Mr.Random]

The guy that programs everything.

No respect for King Clubber.

Lol I know I was trolling. Forgot this is plain text so there was no hint of it.