Why does PM AI need so much improvement?

[wiiztec]

Considering that King Clubber is the only one working on them, he's actually doing a great job. It's extremely difficult I'd imagine. Also, Brawl CPU's and Melee CPU's are 10x worse. The only problem I have with PM AI is that they kill themselves too much.

The AI definitely needs work, brawl level 9's are actually tough to beat, PM AI has tech skill but doesn't know how to use it to actually win and on top of that they're always SDing with airdodges

 

[KayB]

They wouldn't because copyright issues and stuff. But if you're talking about characters with the styles of players and stuff. That's probs fair game.

#thatwasajoke

 

[Player -0]

#thatwasajoke

IT WASN'T FUNNY D:<!!!!!


Gotta try that (P)P:M(D) Marth once Clubber updates it.

 

[KingClubber]

----V.2
Vclose
5 - Short hop Nair
6 - Short hop Fair
7 - Dash > Grab
8 - Short Hop Double Fair
Close
5 - Wavedash Back
6 - Wavedash Back > Fsmash
7 - Quick Dash Dancing Away
Back
0 - If Close Utilt
1 - If Close Ftilt
2 - if Close Dash Dance Away > Grab
3 - if Close Dash Dance Away > Fsmash
Other
Recovery
Fix SD's

The Recovery isn't the best, but it works for now. It only has trouble recovering while under the ledge, i'll fix that in v.4 i think. Marth will attack anyone who gets near him while recover after he uses double jump, and before he uses up-b. I fixed 95% of the SD's minus the under the ledge recover bug.

I'm still working on V.3 in V.2 you'll notice that Marth won't chase you off the stage, that because i was just starting to work on the edge guarding stuff, and as before in v.1 Marth still doesn't jump to Anti-Air should be in the next version as well, but once again something has come up, and i might not be able to get v.3 out today, so i will be extending this project to Sunday.

This is a list of things that i still need to do.
-----V.?
Side-B recovery
Anti-Air
Tech Skill
Throw Stuff
Combo's
Ledge Guarding
Ledge Game
DI
Lying Down
Jump Cancel Shield > Stuff
+Bug Fixes
+Testing

 

[hemisphere]

Thanks for this. Going to try it out now.

EDIT: Hmm.. I'm afraid the recovery definitely still needs a lot of work. I was able to 4 stock it twice on FD in a marth ditto without getting hit by simply doing f-throw to tipper f-smash. It seems to use up-b way too high making it extremely easy to edgeguard.

EDIT2: Found a few more things - when i'm off the stage or ledgestalling/ledgehopping, the cpu will sometimes walk off the stage and try to nair me but falls too low while trying to recover. It also sometimes dash dances too far to the ledge and accidentally walks off and up-b's back to the stage. I find these most noticeable on battlefield.

 

[hemisphere]

Edit: Ignore this

 

[KingClubber]

What Kinda Tech'ing and DI do you guys want?

 

[QuickLava]

I imagine programming a CPU to DI in the correct direction in every given situation would be difficult if not impossible given the amount of moves that are really tricky to DI right (Diddy's F-air, Wolf's F-smash, etc). Also, is there a limit to how many commands you can give a CPU in a given amount of time? Could you for example give a CPU TAS-like Smash DI if you wanted to?
Example: (SSBB - TAS Fox vs Falco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGMum5OMups)

As far as teching, perhaps you could somehow make the CPU tech in a random direction every time? Another option I see being semi-viable would be to allow them to intentionally miss a tech for the get up attack. I'm not sure how often people do this in competitive play, but sometimes it can really catch an opponent off guard, especially if they're playing against a CPU of such high caliber.

 

[KingClubber]

Bero tried using the best direction with the current DI, you guys don't seem to like it that way. And @Umbreon hates it how the CPU's SDI everything. So no that won't work, i really want @Umbreon opinion on the DI and stuff really sense he seems to have a idea of what the DI should be like, but he won't give me a clear answer.

The Tech'ing stuff is simple enough though, i've always have been told they should DI randomly toward the ledge or toward the player by the PMBR.

 

[Deleted member]

Bero tried using the best direction with the current DI, you guys don't seem to like it that way. And @Umbreon hates it how the CPU's SDI everything. So no that won't work, i really want @Umbreon opinion on the DI and stuff really sense he seems to have a idea of what the DI should be like, but he won't give me a clear answer.

I thought I was quite clear. Ideally the best practice you can get is a human player, so the 2nd best is a CPU that plays like human players do. Even top level players don't DI/SDI nearly as well as real humans do, due to complex game decisions and reaction speed. IMO the DI direction is okay but the SDI modifiers are pretty ridiculous, I would ask you to remove those.

 

[KingClubber]

That i can do, i think.

 

[Booster]

Project M's AI is pretty bad, I have a compilation of videos here (Not made by me) that showcase some interesting problems and one MAJOR problem where you can beat ANYONE without doing anything at all
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-ms-ai-is-too-good-a-compilation-of-ai-glitches.357295/

When the AI isn't acting like your two old cousin is playing, it can be easy to beat. You should look into hackless custom Wii servers so you can play over Wifi

 

[KingClubber]

so...

your suggesting instead of fixing anything we ignore the ai problem.

 

[Player -0]

so...

your suggesting instead of fixing anything we ignore the ai problem.

Isn't that what we do for world problems?

 

[KingClubber]

oh, so does that mean i can stop putting 6 hours into PM everyday after work.
guess i'll go play some games.

fixed marth's recovery so he tries to sweetspot.
trying to fix the teching stuff but its being troublesome

 

[vanhuynh16]

Bero tried using the best direction with the current DI, you guys don't seem to like it that way. And @Umbreon hates it how the CPU's SDI everything. So no that won't work, i really want @Umbreon opinion on the DI and stuff really sense he seems to have a idea of what the DI should be like, but he won't give me a clear answer.

The Tech'ing stuff is simple enough though, i've always have been told they should DI randomly toward the ledge or toward the player by the PMBR.

So does that mean Bero is helping out again with the AI?

EDIT: Also I'm enjoying these daily updates btw KC

 

[KingClubber]

Not currently, he's been busy with other stuff

 

[vanhuynh16]

Not currently, he's been busy with other stuff

Ah I see, and who do you main in PM? I'm curious

 

[KingClubber]

5 way fight between sonic, toon, kirby. lucas, and turtle with shades

 

[fdigl]

A level 9 Ness is pretty intense, but I manage. However, 1v3 a bunch of level 9 Ness AIs and you'll have a headache in no time. My only problem is how predictable their DIs are and the SDs, but sometimes there have been instances where the game stutters for like, 2 frames during an AI's dash dance and it just gets stuck dash dancing after the stutter until it falls.

 

[KingClubber]

I've never seen or heard of that happening...

 

[fdigl]

Well, it's the first (and only) time I've seen that

 

[Juken]

Yes, the AI has a lot of problems, but for the most part it's good. AIs in this game ad kind of bad for practicing anything that isn't combos anyway. When I'm playing against an AI, I can destroy them, but if I play my friend in netplay, I get completely bodied and read left and right, and I even sometimes just roil or DI into some attacks thinking "it's so obvious, he couldn't possibly do it at the right time", and I end up dead.

I'll point out some really obvious things that I hate about the AI though
- If you fire any projectile at them when they're in the air, they'll air dodge and SD 80% of the time. They SD too much in general.
- They can't recover from some maps that were in the older games, like on Corneria, if the AI gets on the gun part on the bottom left side of the ship, they'll just keep spamming double jump instead of recovering accordingly like in the other games.
- Some AIs are a bit too good. Zelda getting perfect reads, and sweet spots every time, Lucas sometimes turning into Pink Fresh and zero-to-deathing people out of nowhere. Kirby AI just being a little ******* and comboing non-stop, and Captain Falcon edge guarding to no end, timing his F-smash perfectly no matter what recovery you go for.
- Mewtwo and (I think) Lucario charging their balls non-stop.
- Characters with charge attacks just rolling constantly once they have a full charge.

 

[vanhuynh16]

@ KingClubber I was wondering, how do you go about testing what you have done? Do you just put on the sd card and boot it back up on the Wii every time?

EDIT: Also is the update going to be pushed until Tuesday now?

 

[KingClubber]

Good to be back online.

For those who don't care for excuses. Life Happened

For those that do.

The start of why i became busy was my cousin was graduating from middle school and wanted me to be there not only for that but the whole weekend of going to theme parks and ****. Was going to just tell you guys i was going to not bother with a time limit anymore since things were beginning to warm up with the PMBR, but then i got a call for a new job, and went in monday only to come home and find that my internet modem over heated and had to wait til Saturday to get a new one, or so ATT had told me. Found out late friday USP tried to deliver it on Friday because they don't work weekends in my location for some reason only for them not to have a way in, and was redelivered it tuesday. Lucky me, i wasn't needed at work today and stay home because USP decided that Monday was a perfect day to deliver it even though i wasn't going to be here.

So no update today, but you will get one tomorrow unless something comes up.

 

[Exodo]

i actually agree with him, i play alot with cpu since i cant always play with a friend and it drives me crazy how much they suicide... specially diddy kong, thats why i hate him soo much :l, another thing i noticed about cpu is how they wait when is for example jiggs or pit that all their jumps are finished to actually get on stage, even tho they couldve reached the first two.. but in overall cpu's do have some skills to combo so i can resist the suicides.

 

[Frenzy]

I usually throw myself off the board a few times. I always want a disadvantage to make up for all the times I know the AI is going to SD.

 

[Sai_]

Not sure if this has been answered before, but will you change the AI of all characters at some point, and are you going to release these changes in updates (such as 3 character AI changes per update), will you wait until you have completed all the characters, or will you release them in official updates periodically every time you finish a character?

 

[QuickLava]

Hey Clubber, been wondering something. How come you don't have one of those "Project M Backroom" banners under your name? Think ya more than deserve it considering you take care of the entire AI system.

 

[KingClubber]

@ V vanhuynh16 - My testing works pretty much like that.

1 - Boot the game
2 - Get to Titlt Screen
3 - Go the Vs
4 - Test
5 - Make edits on PC
6 - Copy & Paste on SD
7 - Rage Quit
8 - Return to Title Screen
9 - Wait for 5-10 seconds
10 - Repeat from step 3

@ Sai_

Which would you prefer?

@ QuickLava

I could if i wanted it, but having it is privilage but those privilages come with rules, while i do hold Project M to the highest regard, i wouldn't want to misrepresent the PMBR as a whole. These lil projects i do posting AI stuff isn't talked about with the PMBR, If I took the banner i wouldn't feel comfortable doing things like this.

 

[KingClubber]

Here's a update, I'd like for you guys to tell me what you'd like changed in this update. So test it out for a bit and i'll make a list of suggested changes, i'm sure i can get another one out today with the suggestions if not you'll get it tomorrow for sure.

 

[Zx2963]

Here's a update, I'd like for you guys to tell me what you'd like changed in this update. So test it out for a bit and i'll make a list of suggested changes, i'm sure i can get another one out today with the suggestions if not you'll get it tomorrow for sure.

What's added from v2?

 

[KingClubber]

Ah right.5

2.5
Recovery Stuff (No Side-B stuff yet, next version)
Edge Guarding
Edge Game

I'm still working on the DI, and Tech'ing stuff.

The DI stuff will be more simple, the Tech'ing not so much.

 

[Sai_]

@ KingClubber I think testing should remain here, but once you think you are completely done with a character AI, you should release it in a separate thread called "Custom AI" or somet. That way it's organised. I'd also prefer all characters be done, because this would be awesome to have and I'm sure we're all thankful for your work.

 

[vanhuynh16]

Ah right.5

2.5
Recovery Stuff (No Side-B stuff yet, next version)
Edge Guarding
Edge Game

I'm still working on the DI, and Tech'ing stuff.

The DI stuff will be more simple, the Tech'ing not so much.

Will 3.0 be the final version? Also thanks I will test it out soon!

 

[hemisphere]

Just tested 2.5 out, I'm liking the sweet spot recovery much better than 2.0's recovery. The only problems I've encountered is if the cpu is close to the edge it will sometimes dash dance off the stage. Not sure if there's anything you can do about that.

 

[KingClubber]

@ Sai_ - That's not going to happen.

@ V vanhuynh16 - No, I was going to stop at v 4.0, but two jobs+life and PMBR stuff = less time.

@ H hemisphere - I'll see what i can do about it.

 

[shairn]

Recovery could use some work, he always sweetspots so edgeguarding is too simple.
Also follow up on uthrow is a bit weird, he tried to fair me way lower than I was.

 

[Player -0]

We'll just have to creep on all of KingClubber's postings and create a thread for him. *Creepy stalker sounds*

 

[KingClubber]

its always hard working how the recovery should work because it not easy covering all the options

tell me some options on uthrow that would work on any character at any % damage