Why does PM AI need so much improvement?

[vanhuynh16]

Make a list of things you’d like to see changed, but don’t expect for them to be fixed in the next version, I’m working on something else that flips 90% of the code in my favor instead of brawl’s code, the PMBR really enjoyed that 20XX Fox even with it’s flaws, because for once it feels like you’re playing a real play, and not really a Cpu.

Will we get to try out 20XX Fox before the release kinda like how you let us try out the Edge Guarding Sheik?

EDIT: Also I would like Marth also

 

[DrinkingFood]

The way AI was coded, they would DI in the best Direction, but it may not be coded in the best possible way to survive.

Survival DI almost always has a best direction, that is true, For something like ROB's UThrow at high percents, the best direction is always away from ROB. But the way smash works, for combos, the best direction isn't always the best direction if you do it every time. It just makes you get read and punished harder than if you mixed it up.

There's lots of things that the CPUs just don't DI for or only DI for in certain obvious situations. Like ROBs Dthrow. Most characters don't DI. But if they did, the best direction would always be in towards the stage, especially if ROB is Facing inward when he grabs you. But if I know they are always going to DI, I can skip reaction time Altogether and get a better follow-up because I don't have to wait and see where they DI'd, I can just act on the first frame and follow-up perfectly. ROB's dthrow has 17 frames of end lag for all characters (counting release frame). Since it's a pretty weak knockback throw, at most percents it'll take 5-10 frames for them to be in a position where it's clear what direction they DI'd (because the release point is the same regardless of DI, it takes time for them to travel in a clear direction from DI), more with lower damages and less with high ones. 7 frames is just below the minimum of peak human reaction time, minus perhaps some outliers. Even with a low reaction time of 20 frames from release, those are frames i'm losing to follow-up, unless the CPU consistently DI's the "best" direction in which case I can get the best follow-up for that DI every time. If the CPU would show to me that it knew to DI other directions, I'd have to wait past the endlag of the move for the full length of reaction time, making punishments sub-optimal on my part when he does DI in the best direction, and making me flub inputs if I get too antsy and go for a bad read.

TL;dr "best" DI isn't always best DI if you use the same DI every time

Also I'm voting for Roy because I'm contrarian like that, and because Roy has a better punish game and Is probably a better character since he has most of the strengths of marth while lacking that huge blindspot In percentage where Marth can't combo into kills anymore (at like 90%-150% on a lot of characters).

 

[Player -0]

Honestly I'd be happy with any update to the A.I. (The perfect shields and stuff are killer though) so I don't mind too much. I guess a Marth update would be my favorite pick.

 

[KingClubber]

@ V vanhuynh16 - No, but i will be giving the final vote character the same treatment.

@ DrinkingFood - Yes, i know but this for 3.0 it was the first release with Cpu's DI'ing so ya gotta cut us some slack.

Marth-5
Roy-2
Ike-1

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Of those 3 choices I take marth since he is the most likely to be seen in tourney. ( random sethlon materializes out of nowhere smirking menacingly.) Nope still choosing marth.

 

[hemisphere]

I'm in for Marth as well.

Also, is there any possibility you could somehow lower the amount of times level 9 Captain Falcon uses Falcon Kick? It becomes too predictable, and I don't think it is used as much in tournaments. I'm not sure if others are experiencing the same thing but when I play against him, Captain Falcon does it like no tomorrow.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I'm in for Marth as well.

Also, is there any possibility you could somehow lower the amount of times level 9 Captain Falcon uses Falcon Kick? It becomes too predictable, and I don't think it is used as much in tournaments. I'm not sure if others are experiencing the same thing but when I play against him, Captain Falcon does it like no tomorrow.

Heavily influenced by brawl, the computer reads you on ground at distance x not shielding. Its options either include side b down b or approach. At position x side b is a little too far away decreasing choices to approach or down b. The a.I sees falcon kick the same as doing a Mario fireball despite how much worse of an option that is.

 

[Terotrous]

The main issue I have is just that they kill themselves way too much, usually by misusing air dodge. Melee definitely had issues with this too, though.

 

[KingClubber]

Not even caring about that right now, so marth wins.

Now which player?

M2K or PP?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Pikachu jk. Going with pp. The m2k marth would be the first one to ever find out how to successfully ledge stall for 8 minutes and I am just not ready for that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Definitely PP, He's got probably the best DD in smash I think, and better punishments vs floaties.
Not to say you couldn't take inspiration from both- M2K still probably has a more solid punishment game vs fast fallers and mid-fallers, definitely worth it to teach CPUs to uthrow uthrow uthrow uthrow uthrow utilt uthrow soft upair fsmash fox.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

PP, hands down. I don't want to practice getting camped.

 

[QuickLava]

If we can only pick one than PP, but it'd also be cool if you could create a sort of mixture of the two, sort of like DrinkingFood mentioned. It could have the speed and precision of PP, but the matchup knowledge and combo potential of M2K. Now that'd be insane. On a side note, if you don't mind me asking, how will this actually be implemented into the game? Will these CPU's simply replace the level 9 CPU's of the past, or can we expect a brand new 20XX level CPU option?

 

[Rᴏb]

Go with PP. Programming a certain player's mannerisms into a characters sounds ****ing awesome.

 

[arcticfox8]

Not even caring about that right now, so marth wins.

Now which player?

M2P or PP?

ftfy

PP tho

 

[KingClubber]

@ QuickLava

PP and M2K play differently, no i can't do match-up stuff.
The way it work is just coping they're actions from video, and making AI do the same.
Also, No this will replace everything AI already does so all level will follow the same mannerism.
I have discovered how to create different styles via lvl but it's a lot of work.

 

[Mera Mera]

7 frames is just below the minimum of peak human reaction time, minus perhaps some outliers.

Are you sure that's right? I haven't read much on what the best reaction times are, but I've read that average reaction time is about .215 seconds, which is 13 frames.

 

[KingClubber]

anyways pp wins, imma get started in a bit, expect a update everyday til friday starting tomorrow

 

[arcticfox8]

Family Guy hasn't been funny in forever
Clubber confirmed lowest tier


jk, looking forward to it

 

[Deleted member]

all i can read from this is 'i don't wanna help fix the problems i have with the ai that i don't like.'

got give me something better than percentage, and clever titles.

i'm not exactly the expert on this stuff, i just want to remove the things that form bad habits for real players. in tournament play, both players try to leverage position on each other for reliable conversions. the CPU AI does not do this, they just wait until you do something and shut it down with a frame perfect response that butchers actual play and forms bad habits.

example: even lv 1 fox can SDI out of pillars so you can't practice them. it's actually easier to practice them in melee than PM for falco because even the best players in the world regularly get hit by shine combos on in both games while the lv 1 fox on occasion will not. thus, "remove impossible DI" from me. you don't want your best practice option to be able to ignore things like dashdancing, disrespect attacks in neutral with perfect PS > punishments, or consistently score YOLO hard reads. you can only get hit by powershield rest so many times before it's annoying.

at the very least, make it so the lv 8 CPU does not powershield. this doesn't tamper with the other levels in any way.

 

[Phaiyte]

To be fair: PM AI is like... twice as smart as melee and brawl cpu ai combined.

 

[Mr.Random]

@ EpicFlyingTaco
the PMBR really enjoyed that 20XX Fox even with it’s flaws, because for once it feels like you’re playing a real play, and not really a Cpu.

What 20XX Fox? Video? Link? Please? That sounds awesome

 

[DrinkingFood]

Are you sure that's right? I haven't read much on what the best reaction times are, but I've read that average reaction time is about .215 seconds, which is 13 frames.

7 frames is just below the minimum of peak human reaction time

average reaction time

minimum of peak human reaction time

One of these things is not like the other

 

[Mera Mera]

One of these things is not like the other

Yeah my bad. I just thought that the peak would be higher given the average... Didn't google til recently. Don't know why I didn't check first.

 

[KingClubber]

----V.1
Vclose
0 - Ftilt
1 - Utilt
2 - Dash Dance away > Grab
3 - Dash Dance Away > Fsmash (Missing)
4 - Dtilt
Close
0 - Ftilt
1 - Fsmash
2 - Short hop > Nair
3 - Short hop > Fair
4 - Wild Dash Dash Away
Mid
0 - Dash > Short Hop > Nair
1 - Dash > Short Hop > Fair
2 - Dash > Fsmash
3 - Wild Dance Dance In
Far
0 - Run to Dtilt
1 - Run to short hop Fair
2 - Run to short hop Nair
3 - Run to Fsmash

This took me 7 hours to complete, and this is only first version. Preparing, Coding, Fixing Bugs, and Testing.
If it's not on the list, i didn't do it, this was a fresh AI pack with the 3.02 Marth stuff so its missing a lot of the stuff that 3.02 Marth AI has. So any SD's that are aren't fast fall'd are purely brawl code SD's.
There's still a lot of stuff that need to be done, like fixing the Recovery and adding the edge guarding stuff, i will also be going over this list again to add more actions and attacks, and fixing more bugs.
If you guys could find me some good PPMD Marth videos please post them, it need them for more research on to replicating his style all I've kinda gotten so far in this version is his aggression.

 

[DrinkingFood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7K6Mcni640&t=858
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnQm3ThN6eg&t=337

 

[Player -0]

----V.1
Vclose
0 - Ftilt
1 - Utilt
2 - Dash Dance away > Grab
3 - Dash Dance Away > Fsmash (Missing)
4 - Dtilt
Close
0 - Ftilt
1 - Fsmash
2 - Short hop > Nair
3 - Short hop > Fair
4 - Wild Dash Dash Away
Mid
0 - Dash > Short Hop > Nair
1 - Dash > Short Hop > Fair
2 - Dash > Fsmash
3 - Wild Dance Dance In
Far
0 - Run to Dtilt
1 - Run to short hop Fair
2 - Run to short hop Nair
3 - Run to Fsmash

This took me 7 hours to complete, and this is only first version. Preparing, Coding, Fixing Bugs, and Testing.
If it's not on the list, i didn't do it, this was a fresh AI pack with the 3.02 Marth stuff so its missing a lot of the stuff that 3.02 Marth AI has. So any SD's that are aren't fast fall'd are purely brawl code SD's.
There's still a lot of stuff that need to be done, like fixing the Recovery and adding the edge guarding stuff, i will also be going over this list again to add more actions and attacks, and fixing more bugs.
If you guys could find me some good PPMD Marth videos please post them, it need them for more research on to replicating his style all I've kinda gotten so far in this version is his aggression.

So do we replace the Marth in the P:M folder with the one you've posted?

 

[KingClubber]

Yes, just replace it. Next time i'll make it drag n drop.
The AI isn't that good yet, won't be til v.3
V.2 will be out around the same time tomorrow.

 

[KingClubber]

@ DrinkingFood - Do you recall a tournament he went all Marth?

 

[Zx2963]

I think the AI is really good in PMBR, you did a very good job Clubber. A question though, Marth chain grabs/grab combos :3?

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ DrinkingFood - Do you recall a tournament he went all Marth?

PPMD is mostly a falco main, but lately he's been switching between Falco and Marth a lot more, much like m2k switches between sheik/marth. Full sets where he goes Marth uncommon, full tourneys more so.

 

[vanhuynh16]

@ DrinkingFood - Do you recall a tournament he went all Marth?

He went almost all Marth in Civil War 6 except once when Hax asked him to go Falco.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vgbootcamp+cw6+peepee

 

[KingClubber]

@ V vanhuynh16 - thanks, this is what i was looking for. ;D

 

[hemisphere]

----V.1
Vclose
0 - Ftilt
1 - Utilt
2 - Dash Dance away > Grab
3 - Dash Dance Away > Fsmash (Missing)
4 - Dtilt
Close
0 - Ftilt
1 - Fsmash
2 - Short hop > Nair
3 - Short hop > Fair
4 - Wild Dash Dash Away
Mid
0 - Dash > Short Hop > Nair
1 - Dash > Short Hop > Fair
2 - Dash > Fsmash
3 - Wild Dance Dance In
Far
0 - Run to Dtilt
1 - Run to short hop Fair
2 - Run to short hop Nair
3 - Run to Fsmash

This took me 7 hours to complete, and this is only first version. Preparing, Coding, Fixing Bugs, and Testing.
If it's not on the list, i didn't do it, this was a fresh AI pack with the 3.02 Marth stuff so its missing a lot of the stuff that 3.02 Marth AI has. So any SD's that are aren't fast fall'd are purely brawl code SD's.
There's still a lot of stuff that need to be done, like fixing the Recovery and adding the edge guarding stuff, i will also be going over this list again to add more actions and attacks, and fixing more bugs.
If you guys could find me some good PPMD Marth videos please post them, it need them for more research on to replicating his style all I've kinda gotten so far in this version is his aggression.

Nice, I'm liking the aggression. It caught me off guard for the first few seconds, but I'm still able to easily 4 stock it. Of course, this is only the first version and I'm excited for the next two versions. It will be nice to see this when the recovery and edge guarding is added in. Thanks for your work!

One thing I noticed is that it spams f-tilt on me a lot.

 

[Mr.Random]

Nice, I'm liking the aggression. It caught me off guard for the first few seconds, but I'm still able to easily 4 stock it. Of course, this is only the first version and I'm excited for the next two versions. It will be nice to see this when the recovery and edge guarding is added in. Thanks for your work!

One thing I noticed is that it spams f-tilt on me a lot.

Upload a video showing it off

 

[hemisphere]

I'll see what I can do, but it'll have to be a cellphone recording. Also, I'll wait for version 2 and upload a video of that if it's released tonight.

 

[vanhuynh16]

@ V vanhuynh16 - thanks, this is what i was looking for. ;D

No problem! I'm glad I can help. Looking forward to today's update!

 

[KingClubber]

nothing-worth-seeing-yet
i-might-not-get-v.2-out-today-i-was-busy
but-you'll-still-get-v.3-tomorrow-which-will-better-recovery-and-hopefully-no-SD's,-and-combo's

 

[KayB]

inb4 PMBR somehow programs amiibos into PM.

 

[Player -0]

inb4 PMBR somehow programs amiibos into PM.

They wouldn't because copyright issues and stuff. But if you're talking about characters with the styles of players and stuff. That's probs fair game.