Why does nobody ever complain about SHIEK'S Hoo-Hah?!

[Saikyoshi]

Shiek's even higher than Diddy on the tier list because she has a ridiculously abusable combo of her own.

FThrow -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Jumping Fish OR, guess what, Uair -> KO

And yet people hardly ever even acknowledge her existence despite this. I find it kind of odd why everyone complains about Diddy's but not hers. I mean, of course Diddy deserves all the hate he gets, but so does she!

 

[BltzZ]

Shiek's even higher than Diddy on the tier list because she has a ridiculously abusable combo of her own.

FThrow -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Jumping Fish OR, guess what, Uair -> KO

And yet people hardly ever even acknowledge her existence despite this. I find it kind of odd why everyone complains about Diddy's but not hers. I mean, of course Diddy deserves all the hate he gets, but so does she!

Sheik requires precision and fast falling the fairs to be quick enough to Link them. Whereas diddy kong requires mindless down throws to up airs that always LiNk and never get stale. Even when people can air dodge it at higher percentages you can read it and kill with it. Basically diddy requires less work Imo. Sheik players do some really fantastic stuff. I love watching Mr Rs sheik go to work.

 

[Saikyoshi]

To be honest, Shiek really doesn't look any harder or less brain-dead to me.

I was able to do it on my first try. Something I couldn't even do with Diddy.

 

[Wasserwipf]

I think the problem here is, that sheiks combo is extremly easy to get out as well. Stringen two Fairs together, as a true combo is already super hard, and the one you wrote about in the Op is just ridiculous. If you play against someone who has jeven a little knowledge on the game, you should not be able to pull of those Fair strings. In addition, a fair does 4%, Bouncing Fish does only kill offstage.Hoohah on the other hand works pretty much everywhere, and U-air kills around 90%. thats quite a difference to me.

 

[Creede]

Sheik CAN be played very brain-dead, but she won't be nearly as good as someone who knows how to play Sheik. Same goes with Diddy.

 

[Ogopogo]

Sheik requires precision and fast falling the fairs to be quick enough to Link them. Whereas diddy kong requires mindless down throws to up airs that always LiNk and never get stale. Even when people can air dodge it at higher percentages you can read it and kill with it.

Sheik's d/fthrow to u/fair are not hard combos. Only a little harder than diddy's dthrow uair, which can be di-ed out of to get hit by a fair with instead. If you di away from sheik when she fthrows you you just get hit by bouncing fish instead of fair, which is like 19% without pummeling I think. Diddy's uairs don't always link and they stale the same as every other move.

I think Sheik is better than Diddy and is easily top 3. The amount of options she has is crazy.

 

[Creede]

Sheik's d/fthrow to u/fair are not hard combos. Only a little harder than diddy's dthrow uair, which can be di-ed out of to get hit by a fair with instead. If you di away from sheik when she fthrows you you just get hit by bouncing fish instead of fair, which is like 19% without pummeling I think. Diddy's uairs don't always link and they stale the same as every other move.

I think Sheik is better than Diddy and is easily top 3. The amount of options she has is crazy.

I don't disagree with you on everything. Sheik would be better than Diddy, but the only problem is that Diddy just flat out does more damage per hit, has a tool to trip opponents, and can kill upwards at extremely early percents. Sheik, although very good with her many, many mix-ups, just isn't as good as Diddy. Diddy's only "useless" move is his rapid jab, while Sheik has more moves that aren't really useful. Also, about staling U-air... good Diddy players know not to just U-air to stale the move, but to incorporate other moves such as fair or bair.

 

[HarajukuNinja]

Unlike Diddy, her hoo-hah is VERY easy to get out of and it doesn't kill until like 150ish. Plus it's not guaranteed due to being DI-able. Sheik has better options to rack up damage with.

I think Sheik is better than Diddy and is easily top 3. The amount of options she has is crazy.

I believe she's top 3, don't get me wrong. But Diddy has more damage output and better kill potential, while Sheik's is somewhat lacking in that area.

 

[SoundChow]

Like what Ogopogo said, with rage down-throw to up-air is not a true combo. They either airdodge, in which case you can try to land a frame-trap vanish, or they jump and you can't go for any follow-up. Even without rage, DI-ing away from down-throw at later percents makes fair and nair the only true follow-ups. Even though she can do incredible juggles with her fair and up-air, Sheik's damage output per attack is significantly less than Diddy's (up-air only does 7, fair only does 5).

 

[Tristan_win]

For the love of Science PLEASE do not call Sheik Dthrow into Uair 'Hoo-ahh' It makes no logical sense to use it for Sheik and I WILL think less of everyone who does....Just...Let it die.

Anyways there's 2 reason why people don't complain about Sheik dthrow into uair

1. There's more time to DI.
Believe it or not Diddy Dthrow and Sheik Dthrow are about the same when it comes to how far someone is able to DI away but the major difference is how slow the actual throw is. For Sheik there's enough time usual to DI correctly on command but Diddy Kong there's like no time at all to respond so you will still see some people get hit by the Dthrow into Uair combo at percents that they honestly shouldn't. Diddy Kong dthrow uair will get MUCH worst with time as people get the habit to always DI toward Diddy Kong.
2. Diddy Kong Uair kills like 30+ percentage sooner
So while Sheik uair kills around 120% Diddy Kong kills around 90%.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

No Tristan. I tried this on a CPU and I could do Sheik stuff super easy, but when I played Diddy I found turning around for the uair to be really hard(much harder than anything Sheik has). I also started playing competitive Smash a few weeks ago.









plz don't ban me for saying blatantly dumb stuff

 

[_Tree]

I feel like I know the answer to this...

1. Sheik's combo is not as powerful. It's more akin to a low percent BNB combo, allowing her to rack up damage but never to a ridiculous level. If your opponent is decent they'll be able to DI and only be hit by 1 or 2 F-airs. The combo also pretty much doesn't work at higher percents. Diddy Kong's Hoo-hah, on the other hand, works up to crazy percents like %90, and it KILLS at those percents as well. Sheik alternatively has to put a bit more effort into killing, relying on stuff like weak-nair to BF or a decent edgeguard. It's good at racking damage, yes, but people don't feel it's cheap because the immediate consequences of it are low.

2. Sheik is more interesting to watch. The problem with Diddy's Hoo-hah is that it works at nearly every viable percent, and often there isn't a reason to do any other combo. It is without a doubt Diddy's best option for both damage racking AND killing, so usually that's all we see from Diddy players. The lack of variety from the character's damage output is what makes them tedious to watch. Sheik on the other hand has SO much interesting tech that it can often be a spectacle to see a good Sheik in play. Seeing a Sheik fake-out an opponent with a B-reverse slide cancel, to then grab and pull off an F-throw to BF and lead into an edge-guard which integrates needles, aerials and finally a Bouncing fish into the stage is fun and interesting to watch. The decision making and technical inputs required to pull off such a string is seen as a display of skill, and people get excited by that skill.

There's no decision making behind Diddy's Hoo-hah. It's literally just 'get the grab' and the rest is guaranteed to follow through. Diddy kong lacks a lot of the applicable tech that Sheik has, and thus ends up becoming a bore.

 

[Creede]

No Tristan. I tried this on a CPU and I could do Sheik stuff super easy, but when I played Diddy I found turning around for the uair to be really hard(much harder than anything Sheik has). I also started playing competitive Smash a few weeks ago.









plz don't ban me for saying blatantly dumb stuff

That's sarcasm. I like it.

 

[stancosmos]

Shiek's even higher than Diddy on the tier list because she has a ridiculously abusable combo of her own.

FThrow -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Fair -> Jumping Fish OR, guess what, Uair -> KO

And yet people hardly ever even acknowledge her existence despite this. I find it kind of odd why everyone complains about Diddy's but not hers. I mean, of course Diddy deserves all the hate he gets, but so does she!

It's much harder to do, it's less reliable, it's possible to DI, it doesn't kill at low percent, it doesn't work on all the cast... More differences than similarities i'd say.

 

[Cypher99]

Yes I saw this guy at a tourny place litterally just mindlessly spaming grabs until he got one then fair fair fair up air rince and repeat..... Until I knocked him out of the bracket..... Meh

 

[Judo777]

The main difference, and in fact, the only one that matters, is that Sheiks doesn't kill. Diddys combos and KILLS. Sheiks combos and NEVER kills. It only kills at percents that the opponent could have easily avoided it, infact at kill percents I don't even think the opponent needs to airdodge, they can simply jump away.

After watching most of Mr Rs gameplay from Apex (that I could find), I see that I wasn't mistaken about Sheiks average kill percents. Most players lived against Mr R until about 180. So DIddy's is much more frustrating, because his kills super early.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Nooooo don't tell people about just jumping out due to a lack of combos. How else am I going to get up-b kills out of dthrow? D:

 

[visvim]

To be honest, Shiek really doesn't look any harder or less brain-dead to me.

I was able to do it on my first try. Something I couldn't even do with Diddy.

>Referring to the fairplane as a hoo-hah
>Calling it brain-dead
>Spelling my girl's name wrong

Disrespect for days.

 

[Snipnigth]

Sheik is more complex to use compared to diddy, but a well played Sheik has almost no openings its really hard fighting her and her fair seems to beat a lot of moves, or is it that it comes out so fast that it hits first? ....Anyways, can anyone tell me how to punish Sheik and play againts her? or point me out to an already existing thread about this if it exist? thx

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sheik needs to actually work to get kills instead of just mashing Uair and getting free frametraps. She doesn't get bananas for free grabs, and she's lighter than Diddy. Winning with Sheik takes a lot more precision than it does with characters with actual kill power. Her kill power without rage sucks, so she can't come back from a stock deficit as easily as more powerful characters. She's an amazing character, but she definitely takes more work to succeed with than Diddy.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Sheik is more complex to use compared to diddy, but a well played Sheik has almost no openings its really hard fighting her and her fair seems to beat a lot of moves, or is it that it comes out so fast that it hits first? ....Anyways, can anyone tell me how to punish Sheik and play againts her? or point me out to an already existing thread about this if it exist? thx

You're already claiming she practically has no openings, so why ask people what they are if you already know? :^)

In case the face didn't make it obvious i'm joking, but pointing out a funny little contradiction. I'll leave answering that to someone else tho.

 

[Snipnigth]

You're already claiming she practically has no openings, so why ask people what they are if you already know? :^)

In case the face didn't make it obvious i'm joking, but pointing out a funny little contradiction. I'll leave answering that to someone else tho.

I didint explained myself properly, i didint mean she dosent have any openings i just dont know of them, i dont understand to well how to play against her.
I know she lags a lot if she misses bouncing fish, and on her smashes, but i dont see many top sheik players using smashes, thats about what i know of punishing her.
Thx for pointing out my contradiction thought .

 

[iLLEST]

I didint explained myself properly, i didint mean she dosent have any openings i just dont know of them, i dont understand to well how to play against her.
I know she lags a lot if she misses bouncing fish, and on her smashes, but i dont see many top sheik players using smashes, thats about what i know of punishing her.
Thx for pointing out my contradiction thought .

I wanna be more active so i'll try at it. Disjointed hitboxes beat our fair pretty easily. Shield grabbing a fair is pretty viable. Watch our for retreating fairs tho. Spot dodging a BF happy sheik will net you an attack of your choice. During kill percents, a sheik might try to get a counter-vanish on you. After closing the gap, and a sheik tries to ftilt combo you, if you are in range shield grab them out of it. You can jump out of fair strings at a certain percent, or possible beat them out with a nair. Also DI up and towards after a fthrow might mess up follow up timing.. but the sheik might react to that accordingly so... I guess the best way to beat sheik is to mix up her mixups.

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

Sheik's d/fthrow to u/fair are not hard combos. Only a little harder than diddy's dthrow uair, which can be di-ed out of to get hit by a fair with instead. If you di away from sheik when she fthrows you you just get hit by bouncing fish instead of fair, which is like 19% without pummeling I think. Diddy's uairs don't always link and they stale the same as every other move.

I think Sheik is better than Diddy and is easily top 3. The amount of options she has is crazy.

I agree, it's why I pocket her for my character's bad MU's rather than Diddy. I've told myself I wil never touch that character, eck...

Sheik is just an amazing character, and is a spectacle to watch in action. The potential creativity the character radiates is what inspired me to learn the Shiek arts.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I wanna be more active so i'll try at it. Disjointed hitboxes beat our fair pretty easily. Shield grabbing a fair is pretty viable. Watch our for retreating fairs tho. Spot dodging a BF happy sheik will net you an attack of your choice. During kill percents, a sheik might try to get a counter-vanish on you. After closing the gap, and a sheik tries to ftilt combo you, if you are in range shield grab them out of it. You can jump out of fair strings at a certain percent, or possible beat them out with a nair. Also DI up and towards after a fthrow might mess up follow up timing.. but the sheik might react to that accordingly so... I guess the best way to beat sheik is to mix up her mixups.

Wasn't expecting much with your join date, but you kind of nailed most of it lmao. Hype to see some new players know their stuff. ^_^

 

[B.A.M.]

Sheiks average kill percent shouldnt be 180. Just because that happened with Mr. R back at Apez doesnt legitimatize it. Also wtf is going on here with this "sheik does less damage per hit"? That doesn't matter at all when Sheik has far more longer strings than Diddy.

The reason Diddy dthrow/uthrow> uair is stupid is because of the knockback growth of uair is like a smash lol. Also as someone mentioned eariler its hard to DI cuz of the speed of the throw ( once u hit the ground u cannot DI it). Although i disagree with Diddys getting worse because... uthrow>uair combos at kill percents regardless.

However sheik does have killing tools. Bair, bouncing fish, needle> bouncing fish, burst nade and vanish can kill via edgeguard and is something that will become stronger as people get better at edgeguarding in general. She also has fthrow> BF, fair> BF, bair> bf, and meaty nair> bf which all combo a lot longer and easier provided you are buffering things correctly ( there really seems to be an issue right now with people's buffering, i mean people stil think certain things are mix ups when they're not. It comes down to buffering the jump properly and in some cases knowing the perfect height to double jump which is something you cant buffer).

Diddy Kong's stuff is simply more straight forward and kills early. However, Sheik's neutral is the best in the game. It honestly comes down to the execution requirements of Diddy vs Sheik. Same goes with Luigi and arguably mario tbh. Theres tons of characters that get far more damage out of their throw. That isnt diddy kong issue

It's the fact he can kill early with uthrow> uair, has an all around strong throw game, and his normals are very disjointed and fast. They occupy prime space in Smash 4. He is beatable imo, but his low execution means less mistakes. And when u have such a reliable kill option via throw, mistakes mean everything against him. Hia primary weakness is also the least developed part of the game; edgeguarding. So its just a very good time for him.