Why do we dodge?

[RATED]

Hi there, I felt like writing this because while watching Brawl videos.

I saw a vid of RichBrown vs Espy for example that RB airdodged 3 times in the same situation and got Fsmashed by Sonic every time. ( it was on smashville). Why do I come with this? bcuz Snakes tend to roll or spotdodge backwards like for example after missing a dash attack.

As a character that's very suceptible to juggles or as any character we shouldnt be falling on those, why? Just because you are in a "not so good" situation it doesnt mean that you have to take a defensive position since most players will await and probably see that coming and punish you worst than you should be.

Why don't Jab instead of a obvious spotdodge ? or just shield at High % since for example I prefer to get Grab by a Snake or get grab by a Wario instead of Spotdodging since waiting and uptilting or Fsmashing ( in wario's case) will happen.

the same with airdodges: as Snakes we all know that our landing options suck since our Fair fails to land situations, bair lags, Nair too and Uair is not the best stuff( even though we can Bair as a surprise attack), we can Wavebounce grenade and obviously not wasting your jump when posible. Instead of Airdodging bcuz is just a option that you have, you should airdodge bcuz is a option that you have to mix up, therefore using your other options won't get stale either.


Every time I see a MK spotdodge I CRY, why? I consider that better is to: Dsmash, UP B or just roll the F out of the situation or just grab. I mean you can spotdodge rarely but the punishment to spotdodge can even cost you your last stock.


Long story Short: Remember when you have your last stock that you do everthing to not get hit by that move? Play like that everytime by not Dodging in a predictable way.

 

[napZzz]

I agree with this, it sort of goes hand in hand with being patient/slow to avoid leaving yourself too vulnerable and to be less predictable

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Introduction
I think this relates to a larger problem I saw with trying to play at competitive level and non-competitive level. This problem is a result of repeatitive playstyles. You start to develop a playstyle that suits whoever it is that you play most often.

I.
Say you play against someone who always jumps to attack your snake when recovering. You realize the best way to avoid this is by simply airdoding past. Eventually it becomes habit. Then, you play someone who waits for the airdodge. You start getting punished for this same habit.

The same works the other way around. Say you never airdodge because the person you play against waits for airdodges. Well, someone you never played against starts jumping at you to attack you and you are still in the habit of not airdodging.

The types of people you play against will develop your habits in other matches against people you never play against.

II.
Now, with that in mind, this is exactly why I always run into problems with non-competitive players. Since I focus mainly on building competitive habits, I end up expecting habits out of my opponent that I am not used to because they should be competitively unviable. This is because I keep playing on past experiences instead of reading my opponent.

Conclusion
People who keep doing the same habit even after much punishment means they have not gained the ability to recognize their own patterns of play.

 

[RATED]

I agree with this, it sort of goes hand in hand with being patient/slow to avoid leaving yourself too vulnerable and to be less predictable

yep, I also have the "philosophy" that people bother too much trying to predict the oponnent( is good too do but not that much) I think that in what we should all focus is to be less predictable since we always can get a chance to punish but we can evade the chance to get punished.

Edit:

Xeylode: I agree with you a lot in your post.

 

[SuSa]

Richbrown gave me this advice, which I feel he also learned in those clips.

Paraphrased:
"The best defense is a strong offense."

Better paraphase (eg: what he actually said)
"Whenever you find yourself in a bad position, you tend to airdodge or roll. Instead of this - do a quick attack. Jab. Tilt. Do something. Don't retreat, but attack. You'll be suprised at how often things will actually hit. Then you realize "I can punish ____ with ____ if I attack instead of trying to dodge.""

Which, what he says is true. Usually a quick Jab or Ftilt is better in most positions that you'd roll in.

Also Snake's spotdodge is pretty gewd. =P He told me to try and use it more (also vs DDD) because I NEVER spotdodge.... ever.

 

[napZzz]

with snake I feel its much better to rely on situations where you can most likely come out safe, it sounds dumb on paper but taking risks with snake just generally isn't worth it,and you need to be very very careful about things like this

one failed overprediction might mean mk gets you in the air and yoru stock is ****ed for the most part, just a bad example

edit: rolling sucks, but if you can abuse spot dodging CORRECTLY it can be soo helpful

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Against DDD, I have the mentality of what RB does. Go on the attack. I keep trying to grab DDD or jab -> ftilt to cover the spotdodges. I know he wants that grab, but make him work for it.

I disagree with rolling sucking. I really think it is a good method, but for esacpe only. It is really a good method for spacing away from people to reset spacing when other moves fail. A good instance for me is when people are in my face as falco. I just AAA, or jab to mess them up a bit, then roll away. Then, go into camping again.

 

[RATED]

an example of what the "RB mentality" ( to put a name) is : I play Wolf so against DDD so as we know Wolf gets grab ***** by some characters, so I prefer most of the time to just jab or something else since spotdodging will get me ***** or shielding since he will get grabbed.

IMO this depends on the character we are playing and against what character. For example I prefer to get grab by Wario than to be grabbed by ICs. The same with Airdodging and the other kinds of dodges.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

edit: rolling sucks, but if you can abuse spot dodging CORRECTLY it can be soo helpful

I think it's exactly the other way round. When I played people like Mr-R I could not spotdodge even once without getting punished for it in some way. A well-timed and well-thought roll on the other hand can drastically improve your positioning without leaving you vulnerable.

 

[etecoon]

I think it's exactly the other way round. When I played people like Mr-R I could not spotdodge even once without getting punished for it in some way. A well-timed and well-thought roll on the other hand can drastically improve your positioning without leaving you vulnerable.

this, spot dodging has a few specific uses but rolling is generally a better decision IMO

 

[napZzz]

I think it's exactly the other way round. When I played people like Mr-R I could not spotdodge even once without getting punished for it in some way. A well-timed and well-thought roll on the other hand can drastically improve your positioning without leaving you vulnerable.

you were predictable then, or mr. r just clearly out playing you

bad experience with spotdodging=/=spotdodging being bad

rolling away to help with avoiding projectiles/other hazards is the only decent use for rolling imo

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Spotdodging is Snake's best way to avoid being grabbed, since its invulnerability on frame 2, only jab comes out faster and that can be grab-armored. One good example of a smart spotdodge is when you fast fall b-reverse nade land away from you opponent, they would sometimes run at you and try to grab you, but unless he gets there before you land a buffered spotdodge would get past his dash grab and put you in position to punish.

There is def such thing as dodging too much, and most ppl need to do less of it, but there are times to do them. One thing I love to do is that when I need to roll (e.g. on the edge of the stage) I jab first then roll, that freezes up your opponent sometimes as he would expect an offensive followup from said jab.

 

[etecoon]

Spotdodging is Snake's best way to avoid being grabbed

opponent waits for you > get grabbed
opponent rolls behind you > get grabbed
opponent misses you with an autocanceled aerial > get grabbed
opponent misses the grab and grabs again > get grabbed(depending on when you dodged)
olimar attempts to grab you > you probably got grabbed anyway
opponent spot dodges when you expected to get grabbed > get grabbed
opponent shields > get grabbed
opponent cross up dashes you > get pivot grabbed
opponent pokes at you with something like MK's dtilt > get grabbed

spot dodging is one of the most punishable things you can do really, at least rolling puts distance between you. back roll is actually stupidly important to snake because he has no air game, it's one of his few retreat options that offers any kind of protection, as if snake wasn't immobile enough

idk, I really feel like wario, falco, and diddy are the only characters that should rely on their spot dodge very much, because the invincibility frames on those characters' dodges are broken, snake's is much easier to punish

 

[~ Gheb ~]

you were predictable then, or mr. r just clearly out playing you

bad experience with spotdodging=/=spotdodging being bad

rolling away to help with avoiding projectiles/other hazards is the only decent use for rolling imo

Maybe I was predictable but certainly not with my spotdodges because I rarely even used them. Out of the like 5 dodges I used in a whole game he would punish 4 of them - and he wasn't even Marth but Link. And it wasn't an individual experience either. Leon's Peach, Kaos' MK, LP's Diddy Kong and Manko's Falco would all do exactly the thing to me. Every single time. And they also do that to everybody else who spotdodges [except Glutonny - he seems to be immune against punishment -.-], even if their opponent doesn't spotdodge a lot to begin with.

It's because it's an easy option to cover. A good way to go about it: Try to focus on the opponent's option that is the hardest to punish - typically that's him rolling away from you. The only way to punish it is by dashing towards him all the way. That's exactly the same immediate action you can use to punish a spotdodge [run behind the dodge to pivot grab beats it 90% of the time], which you can do on reaction. You don't even have to look out for the dodge at that point because as long as you watch out for the back roll you always got the dodge covered as well.

Rolling is getting underrated. Against characters who use full hop aerials to zone you, you can often roll behind them [unless you do it excessively] to drastically improve your position and you often get away with it. If a Kirby uses rising bair on your shield you can roll behind him and he will most likely not be able to punish on reaction.

Edit: Agreed @etecoon's examples. I'd add Link, Pit and Lucario to that list for completion though.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

opponent waits for you > get grabbed
opponent rolls behind you > get grabbed
opponent misses you with an autocanceled aerial > get grabbed
opponent misses the grab and grabs again > get grabbed(depending on when you dodged)
olimar attempts to grab you > you probably got grabbed anyway
opponent spot dodges when you expected to get grabbed > get grabbed
opponent shields > get grabbed
opponent cross up dashes you > get pivot grabbed
opponent pokes at you with something like MK's dtilt > get grabbed

spot dodging is one of the most punishable things you can do really, at least rolling puts distance between you. back roll is actually stupidly important to snake because he has no air game, it's one of his few retreat options that offers any kind of protection, as if snake wasn't immobile enough

idk, I really feel like wario, falco, and diddy are the only characters that should rely on their spot dodge very much, because the invincibility frames on those characters' dodges are broken, snake's is much easier to punish

I meant in a situation where you opponent WILL grab you, not when he will do something else and then punish the spotdodge with a grab. From watching matches and playing top Snakes I can tell that spotdodge is not used much, least of when you are trying to predict it. I'm just saying there are situations to use them, like when you got a rly good idea of what your opponent is trying to do offensively or when you do it very erraticly that it doesn't get predicted. Spotdodge is not easy to punish on pure reaction.

 

[etecoon]

Spotdodge is not easy to punish on pure reaction.

I would disagree because your opponent doesn't have to go anywhere, punishing you is much simpler when you're already right in front of them, and in addition to everything I already listed there are also lingering hitboxes, repeated attacks like falco's jab or ROBs dtilt...not saying it isn't useful but I think it's utility is much more limited

it is significantly more annoying trying to punish it when you have cooked grenades around you like every time, **** you sauce! D:

 

[Yumewomiteru]

True that rolling may cover more options, but spot dodging would net high rewards as it ends earlier and puts you in prime position to punish their offensive attempt.