Why do players dislike playing other Pikachu's?

[Ritronaut]

Well I did say that you could ask for reasoning and I didn't explain myself because I was tired, so no need to go on a rant. Also your last sentence: "In conclusion, I would have to mix things up anyways." WTF are you talking about there? I can't figure it out. Anyway, response time.

Your judging a character based on 1 week of playing.
I'm judging a character based on nearly 8 months of experience. I've analysed many different matchups beyond a simple pros and cons list. I play her in tournament. I know her frame data. I'm even developing tech for her. I think I have a pretty good grasp on this character.

About Luma breaking grabs, there's 2 ways that works: You input an attack but Rosalina gets grabbed, Luma still finishes his attack and breaks the grab(I can say from experience that this almost never happens). The second way is if you're holding Rosalina for way too long and you gain control of Luma again (I can say from experience that this absolutely never happens against someone good) And using Luma breaking you out of grabs as a way of saying that she's easy is just silly. She is so much more complex than that. A little gimmick that rarely plays a role in a a match does not make a character easy. I also seriously question your opinion on "easy" when you say that Fox is pick up and play. Fox is an extremely precise and technical character with a huge emphasis on positioning and matchup knowledge.

Now, why is Rosalina hard? Well, I'll get to that. One thing I have a feeling of is that you think defensive play is easy. You think zoning is easy. This paragraph will mostly be explaining how wrong of a statement that is (If you already know that zoning is difficult you could skip a bit). Zoning, and I mean actual zoning, not Link rolling around and charging arrows, is the complicated process of using hitboxes and potential hitboxes to create space while simultaneously staying unpredictable with your next option and flustering the opponent to condition them into unsafe ways of alleviating pressure that can later be capitalized on. To successfully zone, one must be aware of all his options and all the opponents options in the neutral state to correctly counter the aggressive option. These options are matchup dependent, and as such, are never universal and zoning patterns must be changed game by game, stock by stock, or even hit by hit. By definition, all characters are zoners. In layman's terms, it's much more difficult than it looks.

Now, why is Rosalina a difficult character? For one, you have to learn 3 characters to play her optimally: Rosalina with Luma, Rosalina with Luma separated, and SoRo. All 3 play differently and you must know how to play each one of them. Now imagine doing EVERYTHING described in the previous paragraph, while keeping track of the movements of a sentient being, knowing how to move him, his health, his respawn timer, and his positioning, all the while using a character that plays like absolutely nobody else, with very strange tech that has never been seen before in other smash games or fighting games in general, and requires extensive matchup knowledge to be effective and working past the effects of being tall, light, and floaty, or TLF and learning double the frame data while knowing each and every single one of Luma's quirks. Know that you're in a minority when you say she is a simple character, too.

Now it's SoRo time. Remember how I said people who think she is good are people who tend to not use her or people who don't understand her well? So you have 1 week of experience with her and think she's decent and who agrees with you? KyroChao does, another non Rosalina player. That's just something that I've picked up over my 8 months with the character. So how good is she? Well, SoRo is a bit like Yoshi, the more you analyze them, the worse they start looking. When you view SoRo's moveset in a vacuum, it looks good, but in practice it just doesn't mesh well. It's the reason that SoRo is about 30:70 against pretty much the whole cast. (Against rushdown characters or those whom capitalize well off mistakes like or the matchup is more along the lines of 15:85 and I'm NOT exaggerating to prove a point I swear). This is the reason that most top level players, including Dabuz, rank her as one of the worst characters in the game.

As a previous Rosalina main, this is very correct, Rosalina has to be extremely precise with her defensive options or else Luma is gone, and you've basically got one of the worst characters in the game to play with. Also, the more people start adapting to Luma, the harder she gets.

 

[KyroChao]

P Planty I don't think SoRo is great, but I do feel like she's good enough to survive long enough for luma to respawn. However, I have little to no rosa experience so im sure you know it much better than I do. I do think your perfectly right about her and rushdowns though i can see how that would just be awful.

Outside of those, would you consider her capable of surviving long enough to respawn luma? I feel like she might be able to without suffering too much but i do want to know what you think on it.

 

[NachoThePikachu]

Look, if youre judging this based on how you rivaled another Pikachu, you're doing it wrong. I'm gonna bet you just used fundamentals and little to no actual Pikachu tech or things Pikachu does whatsoever. I'm going to assume your fundamentals just made you do alright. If I practiced shulk for a day, my fundamentals are way better than yours, I didn't do any actual tech skill or any advanced things with him, and just played using my fundamentals and did well against you, then I guess shulk is piss easy to use huh?

Well, I'd say that AND the fact that we play so often that he can basically read my pikachu like a book. I personally think that Kyro is an exceptionally great player all around, he has a really great Shulk, a great, rather fair, Sonic, and many other mains that I find challenging to play against. That's the thing though, we play so much that he always knows just how to counter me. (I can't read for anything so I have no advantage XD) He has mastered punishing my Fairs and teching my gimps and escaping my combos. ;u;
I personally like to believe i'm one of the better pikas out there. In terms of pika tech, at least, but I still have to work on all the other global-techs that I have yet to learn. I've been practicing jab-locking, for example. XD
Anyways, back to my point. I'm not defending Kyro at all (heck I told him not to run in here to say bad things about Pika but nope ;uuu; ) However, I did think his pika was okay. He didn't use all too much pika tech, I tried to help him some so he did do maybe like 1 or 2 onstage QAs, but he certainly did try and learn Pika for a bit; Just to put that into perspective.

I already try and tell him most of the counter arguments he's received so I have nothing much to add to that discussion, but I just wanted to throw that out there. You can try and convince him if you want, but good luck with that. XD

 

[Planty]

P Planty I don't think SoRo is great, but I do feel like she's good enough to survive long enough for luma to respawn. However, I have little to no rosa experience so im sure you know it much better than I do. I do think your perfectly right about her and rushdowns though i can see how that would just be awful.

Outside of those, would you consider her capable of surviving long enough to respawn luma? I feel like she might be able to without suffering too much but i do want to know what you think on it.

Well first off I want to point out that the respawn timer is not 12.55 seconds. It's along the lines of 17-23. You have to take into account the time it takes Luma to die. Now if we're just talking about stalling, that's matchup dependant. Against a few characters, you could just shield a lot like Fox, Link, etc. One very interesting thing to do however is to go aggro as SoRo. It's an amazing mixup that could buy you upwards of 7 seconds. But it's just that: a mixup. She doesn't have the tools to be aggressive (Unless she has Luma, and even then it's kinda iffy). Another thing in certain matchups is to just platform camp. This is most notable against Little Mac. Overall though, her ability to stall is heavily matchup dependent and for the most part when you lose Luma, you're going to be taking quite a bit of damage if the opponent is capable of rushdown, as SoRo has just about no means to alleviate pressure.

 

[KyroChao]

Well first off I want to point out that the respawn timer is not 12.55 seconds. It's along the lines of 17-23. You have to take into account the time it takes Luma to die. Now if we're just talking about stalling, that's matchup dependant. Against a few characters, you could just shield a lot like Fox, Link, etc. One very interesting thing to do however is to go aggro as SoRo. It's an amazing mixup that could buy you upwards of 7 seconds. But it's just that: a mixup. She doesn't have the tools to be aggressive (Unless she has Luma, and even then it's kinda iffy). Another thing in certain matchups is to just platform camp. This is most notable against Little Mac. Overall though, her ability to stall is heavily matchup dependent and for the most part when you lose Luma, you're going to be taking quite a bit of damage if the opponent is capable of rushdown, as SoRo has just about no means to alleviate pressure.

Alright, that makes sense. Thank you, i really appreciate it. I kinda figured rushdown characters would be a problem for her but its still good to here a confirmation..

Also, I don't wish to cause any anger or salt with what i've said here. I'm just partaking in the topic's point of discussion, no malice intended. I'm simply giving reasons for not liking the character, the very thing that was asked. I simply have enough experience and play time against pikachu to have a formed opinion and while I certainly won't change that for a while, it is nice to hear some counters to some points I said and enjoy the discussion/ I like the discussion and expression of thoughts, something I wished to show with Planty. Though I do believe a certain Ritronaut took a little too much to heart

Have a nice day~

 

[Ritronaut]

Alright, that makes sense. Thank you, i really appreciate it. I kinda figured rushdown characters would be a problem for her but its still good to here a confirmation..

Also, I don't wish to cause any anger or salt with what i've said here. I'm just partaking in the topic's point of discussion, no malice intended. I'm simply giving reasons for not liking the character, the very thing that was asked. I simply have enough experience and play time against pikachu to have a formed opinion and while I certainly won't change that for a while, it is nice to hear some counters to some points I said and enjoy the discussion/ I like the discussion and expression of thoughts, something I wished to show with Planty. Though I do believe a certain Ritronaut took a little too much to heart

Have a nice day~

I didn't take anything to heart. I merely countered your moot points that made no sense. Also, If you go into the Pika boards and call the character piss easy to use, what exactly are you expecting....?

 

[KetchupKaffei]

I didn't take anything to heart. I merely countered your moot points that made no sense. Also, If you go into the Pika boards and call the character piss easy to use, what exactly are you expecting....?

Could not have said it any better.

Exactly everything he said about Pikachu, I agree with and don't understand who would think Pikachu is an easy character.

 

[Eisal]

As a Palutena main, Pikachu is very, very annoying.

He's small, he's fast, got very spamable moves that are multi hit too, and can approach very safely.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Is this thread dead? Well even if it is I still want to put my two cents in as a main.

I REALLY loathe having to fight Pikachu, but for reasons that pertain to my character of choice. I can be gaining momentum in a match only to have it all taken away with one uptilt/up smash(as Jigglypuff mostly relies on aerials to combo. They are really quick and cover Pikachu) to a high percent combo leaving me practically dead with all of those fast kill moves to finish me off.

Pikachu is also (as previously stated) amazing at gimping and escaping edgeguard attempts with ease. Example: While at my first competition I was playing some friendlies with a Pikachu main. once off the ledge he gimped me so I only had 2/3 jumps left and continued to use thunder jolt to cover the ledge. I was stuck there constantly re-grabbing the ledge regaining my jumps before being knocked off by the storm of projectiles. If I tried to go high he would f-air me back because of how little cooldown Thunder jolt has.This continued until I was at approx. 215% and completely out of jumps, falling to my doom.(still fun match besides that)

Besides that numerous times online whenever I tried to WoP a Pikachu it always ended with them quick attacking over me then straight towards the stage while I'm still offstage, this is where the gimping begins. Pikachu in concept is the closest to a hard counter without being a hard counter for characters similar to Jigglypuff the only thing keeping it from being one is range. It can almost perfectly cover what ever I try to do and it's recovery almost completely negates one of Jigglypuff's primary methods of killing. I dabble lightly in Pikachu so I know the weaknesses of the character, mainly killing, but even then I know that at some point they will get hit by the move and I will win(quick cooldown)

I hope this clears up my problems with Pikachu.

 

[Shaymin slicker]

I have had plenty of people hating me when I use Pikachu, and I can say most people don't like fighting Pikachu for the following reasons:

- Pikachu's small size. (Which when i'm fighting other Pikachu with another character I have no problem with.)
- Thunder Spam? (Not too sure...)
- Grabs. (Had a couple of people really hate it when I used F-throw to F-air or something similar)
- Thunder jolt Spam?
- The fact that he is 'easy' to pick up and play. (Which in my opinion he really isn't)
- The fact that Pikachu's a high tier character.

There could be more reasons, but there isn't much else I could think of. However, Pikachu's small size is what I hear a lot. I don't think Pikachu's hurt box needs to be increased for a lot of reasons, but that's another story.

 

[Shram]

My friends dislike playing against pikachu because he's a combo character, and they don't know how to deal with combos very well asides from trying to use their fastest move or airdodging.

• Multi-hit moves are annoying if you shield only the first hit, but they are also annoying to just be hit by them, since more hitstun is never too fun to be caught in.
• Personally I think pikachu's annoying because he can use quick attack, fair, and thunder jolt with great safety, allowing him to win many matchups against slow characters like ganon or donkey kong. He can be just as braindead as the aforementioned Rosa, in certain hands.
• He can gimp... which can be annoying i suppose
• His fsmash can kill really really early, like 60%. I don't know about others, but I find dying at an early percent annoying :/
• Up-throw to thunder is a combo that can be frustrating for a player who doesn't DI it well, and my friends sometimes say they've DI'd it but I guess they DI'd slightly late.
• He's tiny. It's annoying for wii fit trainers whose movesets are not good against smaller characters because of pikachu's little hitboxes, but it can also be humiliating to be beaten by a basketball-sized rat.

In my opinion though, I think that its fair to play whoever you want just as long as you allow your friend to do the same

 

[NewFoundAbility]

Everytime I would hop on, I mainly play Bowser.
If I feel Bowser can't withstand someone or barely win though, I whip out Pikachu which causes the other player to be aggressive in terms of t bagging, taunting and rude name roster messages then leaving the match afterwards.

I picked up Pikachu after I got trashed by one. He is probably the worst to fight if you have little to no knowledge of the character match-up ... ... Like, his Quick Attack is no joke and what seems like zero lag on moves is probably another reason people can't stand him when they face him.
In my opinion Pikachu is like Shiek in a sense; Sheik's fast moves that do little damage but can combo quickly into each other if you let them.

I dunno, getting beaten by a low tiers on FG is a bit more respectful that they took the time to learn the characters, while getting trashed by a top tier is frustrating because you can't keep up on how quick/good they are. At lest that's how I see it.

If anything why can't we have a good voice chat on For Glory?
There is little to nothing when it comes to communication. You don't know if they are learning a character, haven't played in a few days/weeks/months, or just wanted to a casual friendly game.
Like why have the feature only for friends if friends would use outside sources for Voice Chat anyways?

 

[KetchupKaffei]

I picked up Pikachu after I got trashed by one. He is probably the worst to fight if you have little to no knowledge of the character match-up ... ... Like, his Quick Attack is no joke and what seems like zero lag on moves is probably another reason people can't stand him when they face him.
In my opinion Pikachu is like Shiek in a sense; Sheik's fast moves that do little damage but can combo quickly into each other if you let them.

I dunno, getting beaten by a low tiers on FG is a bit more respectful that they took the time to learn the characters, while getting trashed by a top tier is frustrating because you can't keep up on how quick/good they are. At lest that's how I see it.

If anything why can't we have a good voice chat on For Glory?
There is little to nothing when it comes to communication. You don't know if they are learning a character, haven't played in a few days/weeks/months, or just wanted to a casual friendly game.
Like why have the feature only for friends if friends would use outside sources for Voice Chat anyways?

"I dunno, getting beaten by a low tiers on FG is a bit more respectful that they took the time to learn the characters, while getting trashed by a top tier is frustrating because you can't keep up on how quick/good they are. At lest that's how I see it."

I think you got that mixed up. How is playing a lower tier more respectful than playing a high tier?
If anything that's actually more disrespectful.
Pikachu also has a high learning curve, meaning it takes quite potential and experience to even play as him just as bad as Yoshi.

Mindless quick attacks are nothing if you can't dish out all of his techniques which makes most of his advantages prevail and his disadvantages exploitable.



"If anything why can't we have a good voice chat on For Glory?"

Voice chat is unnecessary and honestly if we can't even handle a name roster mechanic without the all the venom, I think it's best not to. It's best if you friend the person, then talk to them.
Which Sakurai already had the right idea.

 

[NewFoundAbility]

"I dunno, getting beaten by a low tiers on FG is a bit more respectful that they took the time to learn the characters, while getting trashed by a top tier is frustrating because you can't keep up on how quick/good they are. At lest that's how I see it."

I think you got that mixed up. How is playing a lower tier more respectful than playing a high tier?
If anything that's actually more disrespectful.
Pikachu also has a high learning curve, meaning it takes quite potential and experience to even play as him just as bad as Yoshi.

Mindless quick attacks are nothing if you can't dish out all of his techniques which makes most of his advantages prevail and his disadvantages exploitable.

Okay I guess I'm wasn't that clear on the whole thing...
I mean on For Glory as it's not the same as a Tournament or friendlies with communication; playing against a high tier character on FG to me at least is rough in that I feel anyone can pick up Shiek or Luigi and do tilts into combos without thinking (It's an example, I don't want hate), but playing against a low tier characters (i.e. Zelda is one, right?) to me feels different, as it's not the character anymore, it's the player. I somewhat see now that it can be a bit disrespectful, but at the same time they picked them so it's whatever.

You can find it disrespectful, but they picked the character first time after being matched, how am I/they suppose to know that the enemy player could be good or bad? It's a gamble... Unless they stay/don't leave after the match and change to a different character I don't see anything disrespectful --- taunting after someone SDs, that is disrespectful.

For Glory is a mess anyways. At least to me.

Voice chat is unnecessary and honestly if we can't even handle a name roster mechanic without the all the venom, I think it's best not to. It's best if you friend the person, then talk to them.
Which Sakurai already had the right idea.

I did do the friend thing then Skyped with them, but only got two friends and they don't talk to me anymore (One ironically and weirdly had the same birthday and last name as mine!) half of them are kids though or just don't have Skype/Discord/Whatever. Which is why I am going to Tournaments more and sign-up'd on Smashboards.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Okay I guess I'm wasn't that clear on the whole thing...
I mean on For Glory as it's not the same as a Tournament or friendlies with communication; playing against a high tier character on FG to me at least is rough in that I feel anyone can pick up Shiek or Luigi and do tilts into combos without thinking (It's an example, I don't want hate), but playing against a low tier characters (i.e. Zelda is one, right?) to me feels different, as it's not the character anymore, it's the player. I somewhat see now that it can be a bit disrespectful, but at the same time they picked them so it's whatever.

You can find it disrespectful, but they picked the character first time after being matched, how am I/they suppose to know that the enemy player could be good or bad? It's a gamble... Unless they stay/don't leave after the match and change to a different character I don't see anything disrespectful --- taunting after someone SDs, that is disrespectful.

For Glory is a mess anyways. At least to me.



I did do the friend thing then Skyped with them, but only got two friends and they don't talk to me anymore (One ironically and weirdly had the same birthday and last name as mine!) half of them are kids though or just don't have Skype/Discord/Whatever. Which is why I am going to Tournaments more and sign-up'd on Smashboards.

Luigi can actually be considered a pick up and play character, and Shiek takes a decent amount of skill.

I'm not sure how you see this disrespectful. Because either way, if players do play as high tiers, they're trying to give it their all because its most likely one of their goto characters. It can only be seen disrespectful to go a low tier in the next match with the same person after a match of beating them with a decent character.
It's almost seen as the doing of handicap.


"I did do the friend thing then Skyped with them, but only got two friends and they don't talk to me anymore (One ironically and weirdly had the same birthday and last name as mine!) half of them are kids though or just don't have Skype/Discord/Whatever. Which is why I am going to Tournaments more and sign-up'd on Smashboards."

FG isn't a tournament or a social get together like seen on VG Bootcamp. As much as there could be friendly communications, with people casually having fun and giving advice to others, could be just as much people that will take stuff too seriously and discourage others. It's unnecessary, because you can add them and have fair communication. Either within the Wii U or on Internet forums.

"..Which is why I am going to Tournaments more and sign-up'd on Smashboards."

You also ironically found a solution to something you viewed as a conflict. No need for FG to have voice chat.

 

[Shram]

Luigi can actually be considered a pick up and play character, and Shiek takes a decent amount of skill.

I disagree.

Luigi's requires some knowledge of throw combos and has a few slow moves to avoid like dash attack, ftilt, and even his turnaround animation is very laggy.

Shiek can be played to some degree by merely holding the control stick towards the opponent and pressing 'A'. Her roll has better frame data, her turnaround is much better than luigi's, and her combos are simplistic at a beginner level (dthrow to uair is the main one). Not to say that shiek players are unskilled, but it's pretty easy for new players to pick her up asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attempting to spike with her dair.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

I disagree.

Luigi's requires some knowledge of throw combos and has a few slow moves to avoid like dash attack, ftilt, and even his turnaround animation is very laggy.

Shiek can be played to some degree by merely holding the control stick towards the opponent and pressing 'A'. Her roll has better frame data, her turnaround is much better than luigi's, and her combos are simplistic at a beginner level (dthrow to uair is the main one). Not to say that shiek players are unskilled, but it's pretty easy for new players to pick her up asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attempting to spike with her dair.

Luigi's attributes are almost similar to Mario, who is a balance and pick up and play character. Luigi's throw combos at least now do take a bit more knowledge, but before the patch, they were cookie cutter combos.

I'm pretty sure beginniners would have an easier time playing Luigi than Shiek, "sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attempting to spike with her dair." As you already stated, not to mention she has trouble knocking characters out and being light weighted, making her more vulnerable of being knocked out early.

The same thing I said about pikachu goes for shiek.

"Mindless quick attacks are nothing if you can't dish out all of his techniques which makes most of his advantages prevail and his disadvantages exploitable."

 

[Shram]

Luigi's attributes are almost similar to Mario, who is a balance and pick up and play character. Luigi's throw combos at least now do take a bit more knowledge, but before the patch, they were cookie cutter combos.

I'm pretty sure beginniners would have an easier time playing Luigi than Shiek, "sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attempting to spike with her dair." As you already stated, not to mention she has trouble knocking characters out and being light weighted, making her more vulnerable of being knocked out early.

The same thing I said about pikachu goes for shiek.

"Mindless quick attacks are nothing if you can't dish out all of his techniques which makes most of his advantages prevail and his disadvantages exploitable."

"asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attempting to spike with her dair."
Suicides aren't apparent enough to count.
Trust me, true beginners will find a way to sd with anybody that is not villager.

That's true she has trouble knocking characters out, but I've seen many times when a sheik got an unintentional kill from up-b.

Luigi's got an easier time killing, but he's easier to kill too.
In the hands of a poor player, turnarounds and missed dash attacks can lead to easy stocks for the opponent.
He's also has a harder time punishing attacks on his shield due to the amount that he slides after receiving an attack.

Sheik on the other hand, can bouncing fish out of any juggling opportunity and she's got a faster fall, dash, turnaround, roll, and walk that make it easier for her to avoid attacks.

 

[NogGoggler]

I don't mean to say what you think is ignorant, by no means. I highly respect what you've said and have actually been enjoying the little talk. It's highly entertaining. I just want to make a say that a lot of mains have a closed in and ignorant view of things, not that you yourself do. Hell i'm probably fairly ignorant myself :3.

And the point of pikachu is that you do main pikachu, and it seems to me that he is your primary main. I do admit that was a bad assumption on my part so you have me there.



I think you slightly misunderstand what i was saying about the unique aspects of characters. Yeah they all have something unique but the point i was making was that most have something that limits them too so that they don't stand out with a lot of options. Yes, I do main sonic who has several unique aspects being the fastest character and has his combo starting spin dashes(or charge). The thing is, sonic lost his ability to spin through projectiles with the loss of Burning Spin Dashes priority. Small attacks stop him in his tracks and shield leave him open thanks to its end lag. Can be avoided by jumping but then he's also vulnerable in the air. The homing attack point baffles me though because it's certainly not an exceptional move, if it misses(which is very easy to do), sonic suffers a lot of lag, and if he falls off the stage he has only a small frame to make it back, assuming he didnt lose his second jump. And the move is very easy to predict. I'm surprised though you didn't make the point that im a shulk main, a character certainly more unique than sonic is, and a great example of differing playstyles. My issue with pikachu though is that you cant trade with his moves too often because they have a lot of priority which is what allows him to body so well.



The fact that I main sonic isnt too relevant considering i also main Shulk, a character that isn't easy to use. My basis on pikachu being easy is a comparison between my two mains, sonic and shulk. He's not as easy to use as sonic, but he has better options than him. However, he isn't as hard as shulk. I'm basing this on the time it took to rival NachoThePikachu in terms of play and skill. I didn't match but it was very close, and it was only after a day of play. I can respect saying pikachu isn't that easy but I don't think it's a fair thing to say he's very hard. HOWEVER, online, pikachu is probably one of the hardest to use. He is an incredibly lag sensitive character who is probably one of the hardest to use with any lag along with Ryu and a few others.I just base my judgement of him on offline play.





Yes, good point, but this isn't melee we're talking about. I understand the point but melee has several more options in general and is a far more advanced game. That is a good point regardless, but this isn't the most consistent thing either. Melee's top tiers still plague the tournaments and there's no denying that. I respect this point regardless.
I don't mean to seem to be a sheep but in my experience in tournaments and seeing tournaments, this is simply the case and has the evidence to support it. A playstyle can only go so far. And i find this an odd point to make if you make the point that you have to fight pikachu differently. What you're essentially saying here is that you need a good play style to do good, but you have to fight pikachu differently. What this means is you have to go out of your comfort zone and play differently, something a player likely wont be as good at.

Yeah, sonic IS a pick up and play, an excessively pick up and play.But what are you basing this off of? For as much of a pick up and play he is, he has major flaws that are easy to exploit. The spin dash is very easy to stop and predict thanks to it's start up, and once it's stopped you have time to punish. He doesn't have many good and reliable combo's outside of his spin dash too, he relies heavily on reads to keep the damage coming. You remade the fox comparison but seem to have ignored the fact that fundamentally fox can do better than sonic can.

Again, I really enjoy this discussion. I don't know about you but it is very entertaining and a good time. Have a nice day :3

((I'm really sorry about any errors in my writing, but my computer doesn't react very well to this website. It suffers very large amounts of lag which make it a chore. To fix this, I typed this out on a seperate page which should hopefully have solved some of the issue for you))

Also I heavily agree with you on the post about SoRo

"OH PIKACHU IS EZPZ BECAUSE IM AS GOOD AS SOME RANDOM ASS PIKACHU!!!"

Okay so if I go on for glory and destroy some random ass shulk with shulk that means shulk is the easiest character in the game? Okay thanks man.

 

[Insightful]

Pikachu has a very high learning curve and not much people truly understand how Pikachu works. I would go as far as to say Pika is better than Sheik if truly mastered. I think Pika is the #1 character in the game. However, I am biased.

 

[NogGoggler]

Pikachu has a very high learning curve and not much people truly understand how Pikachu works. I would go as far as to say Pika is better than Sheik if truly mastered. I think Pika is the #1 character in the game. However, I am biased.

Whoa whoa whoa let's not get hasty. He lacks range and kill power, which alone does not spell good things for him in the long run.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Whoa whoa whoa let's not get hasty. He lacks range and kill power, which alone does not spell good things for him in the long run.

He does have good kill power and range.
Pikachu has a high learning curve, his advantages in the long run out run his flaws, but to a extent.
You must master all of his techniques or some of his advantages will prevail and his disadvantages exploitable.

I agree that Pikachu could be the best in the game, ZeRo said it himself. It's only the people that stop playing as him because of his severely high learning curve, which is the same thing that happens toYoshi.

I don't think there is only a "#1" though.
I think they're are several that can be the best out of all, but I'll save that for another time.


"asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attemptingto spike with her dair."
Suicides aren't apparent enough to count.
Trust me, true beginners will find a way to sd with anybody that is not villager."
-If thats the case then then why bring it up?
Obviously it is, because it can be common mistakes, specially for beginners.

"That's true she has trouble knocking characters out, but I've seen many times when a sheik got an unintentional kill from up-b. "
-Um, what? It's unintentional, and it's not a Smash attack, it has to be precised and timed well. That's not easy to pull off sir.

"Luigi's got an easier time killing, but he's easier to kill too.
In the hands of a poor player, turnarounds and missed dash attacks can lead to easy stocks for the opponent.
He's also has a harder time punishing attacks on his shield due to the amount that he slides after receiving an attack."
- How Luigi is easier to kill? It's not his wieght if that's what you're referring. If you're speaking of throwing him off stage afar, Luigi has great recovery options, so not sure how you think this. Really? Luigi's out of sheild options are just as good as Mario's if not better. Him sliding isn't really a disadvantage.

"Sheik on the other hand, can bouncing fish out of any juggling opportunity and she's got a faster fall, dash, turnaround, roll, and walk that make it easier for her to avoid attacks."
- Like I said, juggle all you want but she has trouble knocking characters out and is at risk of dying earlier(She's even lighter than pikachu, more vulnerable). Also her moves are more precise than Luigi's.

I'm still baffled on how you think Luigi takes more skill than a sheik. I don't even play shiek like that and know that she is not a accessible character for newcomers. Luigi is an accessible character for beginners.

 

[NogGoggler]

He does have good kill power and range.
Pikachu has a high learning curve, his advantages in the long run out run his flaws, but to a extent.
You must master all of his techniques or some of his advantages will prevail and his disadvantages exploitable.

I agree that Pikachu could be the best in the game, ZeRo said it himself. It's only the people that stop playing as him because of his severely high learning curve, which is the same thing that happens toYoshi.

I don't think there is only a "#1" though.
I think they're are several that can be the best out of all, but I'll save that for another time.


"asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attemptingto spike with her dair."
Suicides aren't apparent enough to count.
Trust me, true beginners will find a way to sd with anybody that is not villager."
-If thats the case then then why bring it up?
Obviously it is, because it can be common mistakes, specially for beginners.

"That's true she has trouble knocking characters out, but I've seen many times when a sheik got an unintentional kill from up-b. "
-Um, what? It's unintentional, and it's not a Smash attack, it has to be precised and timed well. That's not easy to pull off sir.

"Luigi's got an easier time killing, but he's easier to kill too.
In the hands of a poor player, turnarounds and missed dash attacks can lead to easy stocks for the opponent.
He's also has a harder time punishing attacks on his shield due to the amount that he slides after receiving an attack."
- How Luigi is easier to kill? It's not his wieght if that's what you're referring. If you're speaking of throwing him off stage afar, Luigi has great recovery options, so not sure how you think this. Really? Luigi's out of sheild options are just as good as Mario's if not better. Him sliding isn't really a disadvantage.

"Sheik on the other hand, can bouncing fish out of any juggling opportunity and she's got a faster fall, dash, turnaround, roll, and walk that make it easier for her to avoid attacks."
- Like I said, juggle all you want but she has trouble knocking characters out and is at risk of dying earlier(She's even lighter than pikachu, more vulnerable). Also her moves are more precise than Luigi's.

I'm still baffled on how you think Luigi takes more skill than a sheik. I don't even play shiek like that and know that she is not a accessible character for newcomers. Luigi is an accessible character for beginners.

Literally how does pikachu have good kill power??? He can fish for upsmash, do u throw > thunder if the opponent is predictable, and that's about it.

And his range is some of the worst in the game lmao what are you talking about. He has little to no range on all of his moves except for like, fsmash and ftilt.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Literally how does pikachu have good kill power??? He can fish for upsmash, do u throw > thunder if the opponent is predictable, and that's about it.

And his range is some of the worst in the game lmao what are you talking about. He has little to no range on all of his moves except for like, fsmash and ftilt.

I guess you need to hit the lab my friend, glad you asked. Its not his up smash(which idk why people even go for that all the time), it's his fsmash. That has great range and if you have your opponent within the sphere of his fsmash(which requires great spacing) they can die alot earlier depending how close to the edge. Average wieghts would die at a percentage of 65 and above off of this.

The fact you didn't know this shows exactly what I'm talking about when mastering him, knowing his advantages or they will prevail

 

[NogGoggler]

I guess you need to hit the lab my friend, glad you asked. Its not his up smash(which idk why people even go for that all the time), it's his fsmash. That has great range and if you have your opponent within the sphere of his fsmash(which requires great spacing) they can die alot earlier depending how close to the edge. Average wieghts would die at a percentage of 65 and above off of this.

The fact you didn't know this shows exactly what I'm talking about when mastering him, knowing his advantages or they will prevail

Literally what are you talking about lmao. That move is incredibly unsafe on shield and pretty damn weak. Not to mention that you have to use it raw which is really reeeeeaaaaally bad. And what are you talking about that it kills at 65? It kills at like 90 from the ledge. Unless you're talking about fully charged smash attacks, which someone should never get hit by.

Also you're making a helluva lot of assumptions about me which I don't exactly appreciate.

 

[NogGoggler]

He does have good kill power and range.
Pikachu has a high learning curve, his advantages in the long run out run his flaws, but to a extent.
You must master all of his techniques or some of his advantages will prevail and his disadvantages exploitable.

I agree that Pikachu could be the best in the game, ZeRo said it himself. It's only the people that stop playing as him because of his severely high learning curve, which is the same thing that happens toYoshi.

I don't think there is only a "#1" though.
I think they're are several that can be the best out of all, but I'll save that for another time.


"asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attemptingto spike with her dair."
Suicides aren't apparent enough to count.
Trust me, true beginners will find a way to sd with anybody that is not villager."
-If thats the case then then why bring it up?
Obviously it is, because it can be common mistakes, specially for beginners.

"That's true she has trouble knocking characters out, but I've seen many times when a sheik got an unintentional kill from up-b. "
-Um, what? It's unintentional, and it's not a Smash attack, it has to be precised and timed well. That's not easy to pull off sir.

"Luigi's got an easier time killing, but he's easier to kill too.
In the hands of a poor player, turnarounds and missed dash attacks can lead to easy stocks for the opponent.
He's also has a harder time punishing attacks on his shield due to the amount that he slides after receiving an attack."
- How Luigi is easier to kill? It's not his wieght if that's what you're referring. If you're speaking of throwing him off stage afar, Luigi has great recovery options, so not sure how you think this. Really? Luigi's out of sheild options are just as good as Mario's if not better. Him sliding isn't really a disadvantage.

"Sheik on the other hand, can bouncing fish out of any juggling opportunity and she's got a faster fall, dash, turnaround, roll, and walk that make it easier for her to avoid attacks."
- Like I said, juggle all you want but she has trouble knocking characters out and is at risk of dying earlier(She's even lighter than pikachu, more vulnerable). Also her moves are more precise than Luigi's.

I'm still baffled on how you think Luigi takes more skill than a sheik. I don't even play shiek like that and know that she is not a accessible character for newcomers. Luigi is an accessible character for beginners.

Also I hope you realize that half of these things you're saying are wrong. Sheik isn't lighter than Pikachu, luigis sliding is a ****ing awful disadvantage, no one is gonna grenade SD as sheik if they aren't terrible at this game, etc. You're just spouting bull****.

 

[Insightful]

Whoa whoa whoa let's not get hasty. He lacks range and kill power, which alone does not spell good things for him in the long run.

Did you not read the part where I said I was biased?

 

[Coro_]

Lemme clear it up:
Pika does not lack kill power; his fsmash, usmash and thunder all kill decently, sweetspot fsmash particularly early.
Pika lacks killconfirms; he can't combo into his kill moves, so he needs to force a read. Or, y'know, try for gimps.

 

[NogGoggler]

Lemme clear it up:
Pika does not lack kill power; his fsmash, usmash and thunder all kill decently, sweetspot fsmash particularly early.
Pika lacks killconfirms; he can't combo into his kill moves, so he needs to force a read. Or, y'know, try for gimps.

Which essentially means he lacks kill power. If anyone just shields against pika and isn't super predictable with their DI at high percent they should basically never die.

And a character having no kill options in the air except nair at 140% in the blast zone is lacking kill power.

 

[Coro_]

Which essentially means he lacks kill power. If anyone just shields against pika and isn't super predictable with their DI at high percent they should basically never die.

And a character having no kill options in the air except nair at 140% in the blast zone is lacking kill power.

It's kind of a misnomer though, not having easy ways to set up kills does not mean a lack of kill power
I don't think anyone's gonna argue that warlock punch lacks kill power just cause there's no reliable way to always connect it
Honestly it's just semantics; pika can't set up kills as easily as some other top tiers, we get what you're saying

Also, pika gets Uthrow as an emergency kill move at around 160-180%, so I wouldn't go that far about 'never dying'

And well, lastly, Little Mac has no kill options in the air other than his Up B, but by your definition he lacks kill power, so orz

 

[NogGoggler]

It's kind of a misnomer though, not having easy ways to set up kills does not mean a lack of kill power
I don't think anyone's gonna argue that warlock punch lacks kill power just cause there's no reliable way to always connect it
Honestly it's just semantics; pika can't set up kills as easily as some other top tiers, we get what you're saying

Also, pika gets Uthrow as an emergency kill move at around 160-180%, so I wouldn't go that far about 'never dying'

And well, lastly, Little Mac has no kill options in the air other than his Up B, but by your definition he lacks kill power, so orz

tbh Mac is like, a total outlier. He's so weird design wise that you can't really compare him. He is literally at an immediate disadvantage state as soon as he jumps, so he should never be in the air in the first place. BUT, he does have side-b, up-b, and situationally counter. So technically he DOES have kill options in the air lol.

 

[Shram]

He does have good kill power and range.
Pikachu has a high learning curve, his advantages in the long run out run his flaws, but to a extent.
You must master all of his techniques or some of his advantages will prevail and his disadvantages exploitable.

I agree that Pikachu could be the best in the game, ZeRo said it himself. It's only the people that stop playing as him because of his severely high learning curve, which is the same thing that happens toYoshi.

I don't think there is only a "#1" though.
I think they're are several that can be the best out of all, but I'll save that for another time.


"asides from sd'ing trying to recover with her grenade or attemptingto spike with her dair."
Suicides aren't apparent enough to count.
Trust me, true beginners will find a way to sd with anybody that is not villager."
-If thats the case then then why bring it up?
Obviously it is, because it can be common mistakes, specially for beginners.

"That's true she has trouble knocking characters out, but I've seen many times when a sheik got an unintentional kill from up-b. "
-Um, what? It's unintentional, and it's not a Smash attack, it has to be precised and timed well. That's not easy to pull off sir.

"Luigi's got an easier time killing, but he's easier to kill too.
In the hands of a poor player, turnarounds and missed dash attacks can lead to easy stocks for the opponent.
He's also has a harder time punishing attacks on his shield due to the amount that he slides after receiving an attack."
- How Luigi is easier to kill? It's not his wieght if that's what you're referring. If you're speaking of throwing him off stage afar, Luigi has great recovery options, so not sure how you think this. Really? Luigi's out of sheild options are just as good as Mario's if not better. Him sliding isn't really a disadvantage.

"Sheik on the other hand, can bouncing fish out of any juggling opportunity and she's got a faster fall, dash, turnaround, roll, and walk that make it easier for her to avoid attacks."
- Like I said, juggle all you want but she has trouble knocking characters out and is at risk of dying earlier(She's even lighter than pikachu, more vulnerable). Also her moves are more precise than Luigi's.

I'm still baffled on how you think Luigi takes more skill than a sheik. I don't even play shiek like that and know that she is not a accessible character for newcomers. Luigi is an accessible character for beginners.

Luigi's recovery is pretty decent, but he has to use the same recovery nearly everytime, there's few ways to mix it up asides from stalling. Sheik on the other hand is a simple up-b that goes much farther than it looks.

"Her moves are more precise than Luigi's"
Then how is it that sheik's shorthop-fair beats out nearly every option? Simply hopping and attacking is very difficult is what you're saying?

Does luigi have combos that require more than one attacking direction?

After the nerf, Luigi's kill options are much less powerful than they used to be. Haven't you downloaded the latest patch...?

 

[Shram]

Lemme clear it up:
Pika does not lack kill power; his fsmash, usmash and thunder all kill decently, sweetspot fsmash particularly early.
Pika lacks killconfirms; he can't combo into his kill moves, so he needs to force a read. Or, y'know, try for gimps.

fair-usmash

 

[KetchupKaffei]

"Luigi's recovery is pretty decent, but he has to use the same recovery nearly everytime, there's few ways to mix it up asides from stalling. Sheik on the other hand is a simple up-b that goes much farther than it looks."

Because Luigi can't have a simple recovery, he needs some sort of weakness from how strong he is, like every character in the game. That's how I see it.


"Then how is it that sheik's shorthop-fair beats out nearly every option? Simply hopping and attacking is very difficult is what you're saying?"
Really? I'm starting to get a vibe of you feeling like she's op or something, because that exaggeration. Nearly every option? Well if that's the case, Luigi's u-smash.

"Does luigi have combos that require more than one attacking direction?

After the nerf, Luigi's kill options are much less powerful than they used to be. Haven't you downloaded the latest patch...?"

Yes, say that statement right after I cleary stated

"Luigi's attributes are almost similar to Mario, who is a balance and pick up and play character. Luigi's throw combos at least now do take a bit more knowledge, but before the patch, they were cookie cutter combos.",

in the above post.

Haven't you been reading the posts in this topic...?

 

[Shram]

I'm starting to get a vibe of you feeling like she's op or something, because that exaggeration. Nearly every option? Well if that's the case, Luigi's u-smash.
"

Pretty safe to say that Sheik is at least top 3 in the game, but I don't think she's in need of a nerf.
I haven't seen many bad Sheiks so I respect a majority of the ones I face online and offline.

But yes, sheik's fair is pretty unpunishable, even if not fastfalled. It's got more range than marth's fair, has barely any landing lag, and it combos into other moves until ~70% if I'm not wrong.
Luigi's usmash can trade with it, but it has to be timed well and he'll get hit if he uses it too late or too soon.

"Because Luigi can't have a simple recovery, he needs some sort of weakness from how strong he is, like every character in the game. That's how I see it."

He's not THAT strong anymore, but sure.

"Like I said, juggle all you want but she has trouble knocking characters out and is at risk of dying earlier(She's even lighter than pikachu, more vulnerable). Also her moves are more precise than Luigi's."
She's not lighter than pikachu. She's 6 units heavier than him. She's got a 50/50 kill throw. And no lag on her moves, she's not really that precise IMO.

Say we find a middle point and say that:
Sheik's combos are easier
Luigi's kill potential is better

because we've gotten way off topic lol.

 

[Shram]

Pikachu has a very high learning curve and not much people truly understand how Pikachu works. I would go as far as to say Pika is better than Sheik if truly mastered. I think Pika is the #1 character in the game. However, I am biased.

I think the more we master pikachu, the more other players will learn to play against him. For example, up-throw Thunder is great and all, but you'll notice in top-level play that players almost always DI correctly against this.
Not that I necessarily disagree with you completely, Pikachu's got a lot of tricks up his sleeve.

His biggest problem is aerial kill options. Sheik has uair, bouncing fish, and even fair at higher percents for example.
But pikachu's earliest killing aerial is nair (not including thunder), which is harder to hit than sheik's options, and kills pretty late in comparison.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Pretty safe to say that Sheik is at least top 3 in the game, but I don't think she's in need of a nerf.
I haven't seen many bad Sheiks so I respect a majority of the ones I face online and offline.

But yes, sheik's fair is pretty unpunishable, even if not fastfalled. It's got more range than marth's fair, has barely any landing lag, and it combos into other moves until ~70% if I'm not wrong.
Luigi's usmash can trade with it, but it has to be timed well and he'll get hit if he uses it too late or too soon.

"Because Luigi can't have a simple recovery, he needs some sort of weakness from how strong he is, like every character in the game. That's how I see it."

He's not THAT strong anymore, but sure.

"Like I said, juggle all you want but she has trouble knocking characters out and is at risk of dying earlier(She's even lighter than pikachu, more vulnerable). Also her moves are more precise than Luigi's."
She's not lighter than pikachu. She's 6 units heavier than him. She's got a 50/50 kill throw. And no lag on her moves, she's not really that precise IMO.

Say we find a middle point and say that:
Sheik's combos are easier
Luigi's kill potential is better

because we've gotten way off topic lol.

I'll give you that last statement and Shiek being heavier than Pikachu, that was false accusation on my part. Everything else that I stated though I still believe in. I don't honestly little to none ever get trades on Luigi's u-smash. Sheik's fair is a specialty, people complain about pikachu's quick attacks, mainly his up air, which has little lag. Everyone has a specialty and a weakness.

We did get off topic though.
To make things revelant again,
Here's another of my poor attempts at drawing Pikachu

 

[Shram]

:O how did you screencap that?

 

[KetchupKaffei]

:O how did you screencap that?

Just use URL,
Like this other mediocre pic by me

Lol.

 

[Shram]

Lol I like it!
If only there was a scarf colour for pikachu though

Here's a pikture of one of mine...

I like to think I've improved at drawing pikachu since then.