Why do players dislike playing other Pikachu's?

[KetchupKaffei]

Everytime I would hop on, I mainly play Bowser.
If I feel Bowser can't withstand someone or barely win though, I whip out Pikachu which causes the other player to be aggressive in terms of t bagging, taunting and rude name roster messages then leaving the match afterwards.


To let everyone know where I am with characters I play as, I play the character because I love what they represent. Not because of "high tiers" or such.
I wanted to main Pikachu and Bowser from the very start, which took me awhile because how far stretched out they're gameplay style is.


Rosalina I can understand, because she is one of the easiest characters to play as in this game.
As for Pikachu, you have to work your way up to rack up percentage and is very light weighted.
I just want to hear the reasoning of dislikes for this character.

Forgiv me for the awful drawing. I tri

 

[NachoThePikachu]

That's actually a super cute drawing! Very nicely done. ^u^

Anyhow, on the subject~
I have a very close friend that I play smash with often. He's very cool, but he hates playing against pikachu! (It's likely because I give him a hard time with mine... >u>)
I, too, wondered why he actually hated pika in smash so much. When I asked him, he said it was because pika is top tier, a tad unfair, and just a nuisance to play against.

Of course, I don't see those because I flipping love pikachu and I think he's such a great character! (And just like you, I could care less about tiers, I play pikachu because I adore him as a character outside of smash <3 )

I think the main reason people don't like to fight pikachu is because he's fast, tiny, and has great combos. We are blind to this because, ya know, it's our style! It's how we play!

I'm not certain though, that's just one of many's opinions. But yeah, that could be a tiny reason why~ :3

 

[Coro_]

To be honest, it feels like pika is the character you'll get the least flak over picking out of all the top tiers haha
I mean, pick Sheik and see the complains fly =w=;

 

[Wishes And Sunshine]

I play Pikachu because I love Pokémon, but it is usually not a source of disgust or abhorrence for my online Smash peers because of how incompetent I am.
I've got what, three wins in For Glory out of twenty-five matches.

 

[iVoltage]

Playing pikachu is a form of psychological warfare. It throws people off because he never shuts the **** up. Every move is pika! He's small, bright, fast, annoying, and his taunts induce rage not known before. I love him but I can very well see why somebody would hate him.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

I agree with Volty. Pikachu is a character that can induce psychological warfare. He is fast and annoying, and it only makes it worse when your opponent gets obliterated by this:

Rather than:

Plus, I also had this problem myself a while back with my friends. I asked them, "What about fighting Pikachu annoys you the most?" They said that they "did not like how safe Pikachu can be." The little guy only really exposes himself when he commits to a KO attempt.

 

[Reila]

Rosalina & Luma are definitely not easy to play.

Anyways, my brother dislikes when I play Pikachu because he can't deal with Pikachu's speed, so he struggles to punish my mistakes. It's like when he picks Little Mac and I have no idea how to fight against that thing with most of my favorite characters.

I play Pikachu because I love Pokémon, but it is usually not a source of disgust or abhorrence for my online Smash peers because of how incompetent I am.
I've got what, three wins in For Glory out of twenty-five matches.

To be fair, Pikachu is really hard to be played well online. It isn't exactly an easy character to being with and latency can make it even harder to be played well.

 

[Ritronaut]

Rosalina & Luma are definitely not easy to play.

Whew, I was worried someone wouldn't say this. One of the easiest to play? Hell no. One of the hardest, honestly. She's easy to pick up and start spamming attacks with, but she's probably top 3 hardest characters to master.

Honestly, I don't get a lot of flack for playing pika, he's pretty hard to play well especially online. I don't know why you're getting any.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Whew, I was worried someone wouldn't say this. One of the easiest to play? Hell no. One of the hardest, honestly. She's easy to pick up and start spamming attacks with, but she's probably top 3 hardest characters to master.

Honestly, I don't get a lot of flack for playing pika, he's pretty hard to play well especially online. I don't know why you're getting any.

I played her and Little Mac when I got bored after a little when I choose random. I was able to beat a above average player with both of these characters with my first try.


Yea, there is more depth into these characters(techniques yet to be discovered), but even I think it's already too easy with the stuff at your disposal when you first play as them. Little Mac is very simple to approach if you know how what you're doing, specially when you're Pikachu, you can gimp him off the stage.


As for Rosalina as you try to confront her, luma always gets in the way and disrupts grabs and other tactics so very easily. Even without luma, Rosalina is still considered decent if the player doesn't panic after luma's death. It's just how I see it.

 

[Emuchu]

Pikachu, the way I think of him, gets a lot of hate on For Glory from the same kinds of people who don't know how to deal with Little Mac, Rosalina, & Sonic. Basically, I think some people just want to shield, roll around, and jump around with their Fair's or whatever and win at For Glory, so when you go in there with someone they can't even catch, and that you have to actually change your game plan for, it's frustrating for them and they don't know what to do.

I play a lot of fighting games, and this same sort of thing happens with, say, grapplers in every fighting game ever. People can't just jump in and mash their strings any more 'cause you'll just go GENESIC ATOMIC HEAVENLY MACHAMP BUSTER when they block. Instead of, say, adapting by using safer strings and enforcing spacing, more inflexible players simply cry foul. Same for, say, zoners and vortex-ers (if you know that lingo).

So it's not you, it's more the mindset of, "I just wanna run in with my easy grab strings and Fairs, and I don't want to learn how to play against Unpunishable Super Armor Man (Mac), Meat Shield and Coward (LumaRosa), Runaway Spin Dash (Sanic), and Jumpy McQuickAttack (Pika)."

 

[Soul.]

Because people think Pikachu itself sucks, has an annoying voice, scrubs spamming Thunder every time (maybe?), is a "gimmick"?

Don't let those kind of messages deter you from using a character. If you love the character there's no reason to not play them, regardless of tier placement.

Drawing doesn't suck, it's cool.

 

[iVoltage]

Because people think Pikachu itself sucks, has an annoying voice, scrubs spamming Thunder every time (maybe?), is a "gimmick"?

Don't let those kind of messages deter you from using a character. If you love the character there's no reason to not play them, regardless of tier placement.

Drawing doesn't suck, it's cool.

Thunder spam is a legitimate strategy

 

[Soul.]

Thunder spam is a legitimate strategy

Only on free for alls I suppose. In a 1v1 match it's kinda stupid to spam Thunder when you have other options

 

[Emuchu]

Only on free for alls I suppose. In a 1v1 match it's kinda stupid to spam Thunder when you have other options

There IS that wall-jump B-reverse thunder-spam trick ESAM posted up on YouTube, where you can loiter under the ledge and spam up to 17 Thunders if you want to delay your recovery for some reason.

 

[Soul.]

There IS that wall-jump B-reverse thunder-spam trick ESAM posted up on YouTube, where you can loiter under the ledge and spam up to 17 Thunders if you want to delay your recovery for some reason.

Oh yeah, I understand that. I was mostly talking about spamming Thunder while standing still, not doing anything but Thunder. On the ground.

 

[Emuchu]

Oh yeah, I understand that. I was mostly talking about spamming Thunder while standing still, not doing anything but Thunder. On the ground.

Har! Like my Lv.50 Pikamiibo.

 

[Coro_]

Quoth ZeRo (ZeRo Plays For Glory - Ep #15 - PIkachu, 13:20)
'now Pikachu's mad adorable dude you can't deny that :D
can't be mad at him, can't be mad at him
you can be mad at him in 64 but in this game dude? can't be mad :D'

 

[Dokokashira]

I've had a bit of this myself... I was on FG playing as Pikachu (they were Shulk or Roy, can't remember which), and my opponent displayed the standard FG etiquette of taunting after every KO, teabagging, not saying GG, etc., but when I switched to Dr. Mario, he stopped it all and even started saying GG. There was also another person in a Smash Skype group I was in who was very nice when I was playing Dr. Mario, but when I switched to Pikachu, he quickly started to accuse me of "spamming neutral B" and grabs and called Pikachu "annoying". When I told him what I was doing was zoning and asked why it wasn't annoying when I did the exact same thing with Dr. Mario, he said "low tiers aren't annoying". There was lastly one more person who refused to fight my Pikachu because it was, again, "annoying", and only fought me when I used my lower-tier characters (even though he used Sheik, Luigi, and Sonic). He did eventually let me use Pikachu, but not without taunting after every KO and Johning whenever he lost.

My consensus is that people don't like Pikachu because he's a top tier character. It's kind of strange, because most people I've met who use low-tiers don't mind and even like that I use Pikachu, while most high-tier users complain.

 

[Scootch]

spamming Thunder every time.

My bro (He is only 7 though so I cut him some slack) SPAMS THUNDER CONSTANTLY! Then I am like:

 

[Armistice]

The only people I know who complain about Pika are my friends I play who are not into the competitive smash scene, so I guess their complaints are more focused on specific things they think are cheap, rather than pika's placing on the tier list, which they obviously don't know about

They complain the most about Quick Attack and how good it is. Don't get me wrong, it is good, but they complain about it mostly because they don't know how to deal with it yet. In the great words of ESAM: "If I see my opponent can't deal with QA, then you can bet I'm going to spam the hell out of it." (paraphrased)

 

[Underhill]

I've had a bit of this myself... I was on FG playing as Pikachu (they were Shulk or Roy, can't remember which), and my opponent displayed the standard FG etiquette of taunting after every KO, teabagging, not saying GG, etc., but when I switched to Dr. Mario, he stopped it all and even started saying GG. There was also another person in a Smash Skype group I was in who was very nice when I was playing Dr. Mario, but when I switched to Pikachu, he quickly started to accuse me of "spamming neutral B" and grabs and called Pikachu "annoying". When I told him what I was doing was zoning and asked why it wasn't annoying when I did the exact same thing with Dr. Mario, he said "low tiers aren't annoying". There was lastly one more person who refused to fight my Pikachu because it was, again, "annoying", and only fought me when I used my lower-tier characters (even though he used Sheik, Luigi, and Sonic). He did eventually let me use Pikachu, but not without taunting after every KO and Johning whenever he lost.

My consensus is that people don't like Pikachu because he's a top tier character. It's kind of strange, because most people I've met who use low-tiers don't mind and even like that I use Pikachu, while most high-tier users complain.

*faceplam* Don't like it, then thats their problem, not your XD

 

[phantom man]

Because people think Pikachu itself sucks, has an annoying voice, scrubs spamming Thunder every time (maybe?), is a "gimmick"?

Don't let those kind of messages deter you from using a character. If you love the character there's no reason to not play them, regardless of tier placement.

Drawing doesn't suck, it's cool.

Thunder spammers are such a pushover, man!

 

[BlackCore8]

Most people hate playing against Pikachu I guess is because of his annoying neutral b, he's small so he has a small hurtbox, and well he's fast so he is pretty hard to punish, especially his up special. You rarely fight a good Pikachu nowadays... for me that is.

 

[Coro_]

When I went to a local smashfest, the two gripes everyone had about Pikachu were Tjolt and his small size making combos wonky.
At least, that's the comments I heard while I were playing XD

 

[FUEGO!]

I have yet to have a set where the person didn't turn to me and say "wow, that was really fun, and you're really creative in your approach". I often get spectators complimenting my games too. Supposedly it's to do with how often and well I use QAC in the neutral, following by Esam's example.

 

[Armistice]

Honestly pika is probably the least hated top/high tier. He's just like really good but also really balanced and isn't just "pick up and win"

 

[Wishes And Sunshine]

Honestly pika is probably the least hated top/high tier. He's just like really good but also really balanced and isn't just "pick up and win"

Ah, I only wish he were...

 

[KyroChao]

As a shulk player, i personally cannot stand fighting pikachu because pikachu always stands as an example of a character with almost every option in competitive play. Pikachu can zone, use grab combo's, throw set ups to kill, can camp, can go in hit and run, and has a way to deal with almost every single character that isnt luigi because of priority.

It also doesnt help that pikachu really does have a lot of safe moves. I cant even count the number of times ive been aproached with a dair and shield the hit and the ground hit box, but miss the punish because pikachu practically flattens himself. Its a case where pikachu not only has safe options with little lag but some of his more laggy moves also leave him in safer positions that other characters simply dont have.

A personal gripe i have is how much pikachu isnt seen as a threat unless you play the character often or are into the competitive scene enough to have a knowledgeable experience with him. For NachoThePikachu's birthday i played pikachu and made a montage for it, but it was so easy to learn how to use him because he has so many easy to use tools. When you take a step back, he really is one of the easier characters to learn. Far from the easiest but he's not that difficult. I considered using him as a secondary for a while after a lot of matches with nacho but i felt cheap for using him because it takes almost no effort. It didnt take more than about an hour of practice to fight nacho and almost win a considerable amount in ditto's and i can say she is a really good pikachu. He's like a sonic with safer options, a projectile, and better kill potential.

He's simply a nightmare for any lower tier characters, but still a pain for higher ones. And its because pikachu simply doesnt have to put in too much effort to do exceptionally well. If you have an understanding of what you need to do, he has the tools he needs to do so. I dont like him because i lose to him, ive played him enough with nacho that as long as i use shulk or sonic its either incredibly even or heavily in my favor but thats just experience. I still groan when i cant grab pikachu after his dash attack and most of his aerials, miss a punish when he uses thunder and misses but i miss because he has invincibility, and getting hit by a fast fall fair into a grab or dtilt.

That said i dont think he's broken but i do think he deserves at least a small nerf. some of his combo's are stupidly easy and rack up damage in no time and he's way too safe. If sonic can get nerfs twice in a row, pikachu can get at least a tweak.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

As a shulk player, i personally cannot stand fighting pikachu because pikachu always stands as an example of a character with almost every option in competitive play. Pikachu can zone, use grab combo's, throw set ups to kill, can camp, can go in hit and run, and has a way to deal with almost every single character that isnt luigi because of priority.

It also doesnt help that pikachu really does have a lot of safe moves. I cant even count the number of times ive been aproached with a dair and shield the hit and the ground hit box, but miss the punish because pikachu practically flattens himself. Its a case where pikachu not only has safe options with little lag but some of his more laggy moves also leave him in safer positions that other characters simply dont have.

A personal gripe i have is how much pikachu isnt seen as a threat unless you play the character often or are into the competitive scene enough to have a knowledgeable experience with him. For NachoThePikachu's birthday i played pikachu and made a montage for it, but it was so easy to learn how to use him because he has so many easy to use tools. When you take a step back, he really is one of the easier characters to learn. Far from the easiest but he's not that difficult. I considered using him as a secondary for a while after a lot of matches with nacho but i felt cheap for using him because it takes almost no effort. It didnt take more than about an hour of practice to fight nacho and almost win a considerable amount in ditto's and i can say she is a really good pikachu. He's like a sonic with safer options, a projectile, and better kill potential.

He's simply a nightmare for any lower tier characters, but still a pain for higher ones. And its because pikachu simply doesnt have to put in too much effort to do exceptionally well. If you have an understanding of what you need to do, he has the tools he needs to do so. I dont like him because i lose to him, ive played him enough with nacho that as long as i use shulk or sonic its either incredibly even or heavily in my favor but thats just experience. I still groan when i cant grab pikachu after his dash attack and most of his aerials, miss a punish when he uses thunder and misses but i miss because he has invincibility, and getting hit by a fast fall fair into a grab or dtilt.

That said i dont think he's broken but i do think he deserves at least a small nerf. some of his combo's are stupidly easy and rack up damage in no time and he's way too safe. If sonic can get nerfs twice in a row, pikachu can get at least a tweak.

I disagree. I believe Pikachu is just only an accessible character, but if used right can achieve far more. Pikachu is far from a pick up and play character, his specialty is swiftness which comes down to quick attacks.


If I were to pick a character that fits the same bill to swiftness, speed, and agility it would be Fox. Now Fox is a pick up and play character. Pikachu requires more follow ups, as for Fox can be played by a average joe and can get hit and jabs because of his speed and his different approach with it. Pikachu requires effort into his follow ups slighty or even more than Fox.


Tiers never matter to me because the core of it all comes down to the player using that character, and Pikachu is definitely not a "pick up and win" character as some would say. Low tiers can beat Pikachu if they know what they're doing, it all comes down to the players. Every character has they're specialty, so if you have trouble grabbing him and punishing him at some moments then you have to change your game plan and not get frustrated because of something that you usually have no trouble with other characters. No one is the same.

In conclusion, Pikachu is fine where he is, all it takes is different play styles, the player themselves to overcome an obstacle. He has swiftness/quick attacks in exchange for being a bit more heavier. I think he's balanced enough, Sonic needed that nerf though but thats for another day.

 

[Coro_]

Here's how a theoretical first play with Pikachu might go~

- ooh he's really safe
- ooh Thunder is cool
- wow I'm really racking up damage, whoohoo
- ...wow, he's like, at 120%
- how do I kill
- oh no I must recover
- how do I Quick Attack
- halp

 

[Soul.]

Unless we get an actual kill setup in a balance patch, getting the kill will forever be a problem. We already struggle getting the stock.

Also the character isn't ridiculously safe. We don't have everything. Pika struggles with shields. Aerial safety is apparently garbage but someone can correct me on that.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Here's how a theoretical first play with Pikachu might go~

- ooh he's really safe
- ooh Thunder is cool
- wow I'm really racking up damage, whoohoo
- ...wow, he's like, at 120%
- how do I kill
- oh no I must recover
- how do I Quick Attack
- halp

Exactly, as for the first couple times you play as Pikachu versus Fox. Fox is more accessible compared to Pikachu.

 

[iVoltage]

I can say the pikachu ditto is simultaneously the most fun and most aggravating mus. It's fun because there two unbearably adorable monsters running around. It's fast paced and hectic, but nothing ever happens. You take turns comboing each other, but now you are at 120 how are you taking the stock? "I'll just gimp him!" But you can't he's also pikachu. Up throw thunder is hard to hit on light characters too. I play against my friend who is also a pija main and it normally comes down to whoever spams thunder / fsmash better haha.

 

[KyroChao]

I disagree. I believe Pikachu is just only an accessible character, but if used right can achieve far more. Pikachu is far from a pick up and play character, his specialty is swiftness which comes down to quick attacks.


If I were to pick a character that fits the same bill to swiftness, speed, and agility it would be Fox. Now Fox is a pick up and play character. Pikachu requires more follow ups, as for Fox can be played by a average joe and can get hit and jabs because of his speed and his different approach with it. Pikachu requires effort into his follow ups slighty or even more than Fox.


Tiers never matter to me because the core of it all comes down to the player using that character, and Pikachu is definitely not a "pick up and win" character as some would say. Low tiers can beat Pikachu if they know what they're doing, it all comes down to the players. Every character has they're specialty, so if you have trouble grabbing him and punishing him at some moments then you have to change your game plan and not get frustrated because of something that you usually have no trouble with other characters. No one is the same.

In conclusion, Pikachu is fine where he is, all it takes is different play styles, the player themselves to overcome an obstacle. He has swiftness/quick attacks in exchange for being a bit more heavier. I think he's balanced enough, Sonic needed that nerf though but thats for another day.

I never said he was a straight pick up and play character. There is a lot to him and hes definitely one that takes practice and skill, but im saying of hard to use characters he's not quite up there. Pikachu is still piss easy to pick up and use compared to a lot of characters but that doesnt mean he isnt hard to use. Swiftness doesnt matter unless you come from a chracter who is bulky and slow naturally, only then is it a hard shift.

I do agree that fox is a pick up and play much more so than pikachu, but if your looking at it from just a pikachu's players perspective i dont think you realize how comparable the effort is, especially when your u smashes are both excellent in killing. Pikachu and fox ironically have some similar way of getting percents and killing. They bot have fantastic f and smashes, their areials both can lead into other moves, and both have a couple throw set ups, though pikachu has more and his are far superior.

And frankly, to says tiers dont matter at all is very ignorant. Theres a reason the tier list exists, its a representation of who does better in the meta game and as it stands the top tiers have the best match ups. It is very true that a low tier can beat a high tier with player skill, but the thing is the difference in skill has to be fairly large for a zelda to beat a sheik or something of the like. The reason the tier list exists is because it shows which chracter reach their limits faster. The lowest of the tiers can only go so far before they get capped and have no more options available as compared to the top tiers who have a drastically higher amount of options. And personally i think because pikachu players re not on everyones eyes due to a lack of players, not to say they dont exist but there arent as many, that pikachu players as a whole are mostly ignorant to the fact that they simply have a good character with excelllent match ups, who has the tools needed to take down almost anyone.

The argument that no one is the same dwindles down a little when you realize that a lot of characters ARE similar. When you have a game with such drastic differences when they do exist, such as pikachu's smaller hurtbox, you need to keep some options restricted to ensure they cant get away with a lot of things other characters can while doing things the others also cant. I think the best example is G&W who CAN have a insanely small hurtbox but he doesnt have insane kill options or set ups like other characters do. Pikachu simply isnt like this and can avoid a lot of basic punishes because of the safety of his moves.

And frankly i still disagree, i still think its just a blindness pikachu players have that their character is perfect. This isnt limited to only pikachu players though dont get me wrong a lot of players have the same ideas. But s you said, pikachu has fast attacks that lead into very handy set ups that can lead to kills. Pikachu also has aan incredible gimp game. He has good smashes. Is fast and can recover from almost anything. He is lighter than some other characters but thats also a good thing, If he was a heavier character or a fast faller that small hurtbox would matter less because then combo's against him would be a lot esier, but because he's lighter, while he may be easier to kill he's harder to combo. Another pikachu complaint i see is that he lacks kill power but this is a non issue when you actually try to go for reads. if you cn read your opponent pikachu's usmash and f smash should not be an issue at all and most of his aerials gimp enough.

Personally i think the perfect example of a fast character that is balanced is brawl sonic. He can be extremely fast but he lacks the options other characters had. He relied on combo's that required on the spot thinking and didnt have anything that made that too easy. That said that sort of character aslo had its flaws and deserved some buffs. I would hate to see something similar happen to pikachu but i do feel some of his moves should be given less hit stun, do less damage, or have more base knockback so that they dont chain together in such an easy manner.

I would also like to point out that this very thread is based on reasons to not like pikachu and thats all im doing, im giving you reasons. :3 Though i do agree with the whole psychological warfare aspect, pika is very much that sort of character XD

I would have no issue seeing a tweak or nerf on pikachu but i do think he would deserve a buff in some area to counteract said thing as long as its an equal buff.

And as a note, i do want to point out that criticism isnt a bad thing As a sonic main i'm very well experienced in being hated or criticized for my character choice but i love the character and no nerfs or hate will change that so i respect your decision to keep playing pikachu in the face of aggression or hate. Its a great quality that you should keep, but if your not willing to see the positives your character has or accept that sort of criticism your not doing yourself any favors.

Anyways Have a Good Day :3
(Also when the major complain with sonic was his campiness, nerfing him in a way that makes him more campy doesnt help. )

 

[Planty]

As for Rosalina as you try to confront her, luma always gets in the way and disrupts grabs and other tactics so very easily. Even without luma, Rosalina is still considered decent if the player doesn't panic after luma's death. It's just how I see it.

This is just so bad. I won't go on a rant because I'm tired, however if you want me to explain how poor of a post this is, I'll do it tomorrow. Just ask. I will add this though: The only people who think SoRo is decent are people who don't use her or people who aren't very knowledgeable on her. So please don't spread misinformation.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

I never said he was a straight pick up and play character. There is a lot to him and hes definitely one that takes practice and skill, but im saying of hard to use characters he's not quite up there. Pikachu is still piss easy to pick up and use compared to a lot of characters but that doesnt mean he isnt hard to use. Swiftness doesnt matter unless you come from a chracter who is bulky and slow naturally, only then is it a hard shift.

I do agree that fox is a pick up and play much more so than pikachu, but if your looking at it from just a pikachu's players perspective i dont think you realize how comparable the effort is, especially when your u smashes are both excellent in killing. Pikachu and fox ironically have some similar way of getting percents and killing. They bot have fantastic f and smashes, their areials both can lead into other moves, and both have a couple throw set ups, though pikachu has more and his are far superior.

And frankly, to says tiers dont matter at all is very ignorant. Theres a reason the tier list exists, its a representation of who does better in the meta game and as it stands the top tiers have the best match ups. It is very true that a low tier can beat a high tier with player skill, but the thing is the difference in skill has to be fairly large for a zelda to beat a sheik or something of the like. The reason the tier list exists is because it shows which chracter reach their limits faster. The lowest of the tiers can only go so far before they get capped and have no more options available as compared to the top tiers who have a drastically higher amount of options. And personally i think because pikachu players re not on everyones eyes due to a lack of players, not to say they dont exist but there arent as many, that pikachu players as a whole are mostly ignorant to the fact that they simply have a good character with excelllent match ups, who has the tools needed to take down almost anyone.

The argument that no one is the same dwindles down a little when you realize that a lot of characters ARE similar. When you have a game with such drastic differences when they do exist, such as pikachu's smaller hurtbox, you need to keep some options restricted to ensure they cant get away with a lot of things other characters can while doing things the others also cant. I think the best example is G&W who CAN have a insanely small hurtbox but he doesnt have insane kill options or set ups like other characters do. Pikachu simply isnt like this and can avoid a lot of basic punishes because of the safety of his moves.

And frankly i still disagree, i still think its just a blindness pikachu players have that their character is perfect. This isnt limited to only pikachu players though dont get me wrong a lot of players have the same ideas. But s you said, pikachu has fast attacks that lead into very handy set ups that can lead to kills. Pikachu also has aan incredible gimp game. He has good smashes. Is fast and can recover from almost anything. He is lighter than some other characters but thats also a good thing, If he was a heavier character or a fast faller that small hurtbox would matter less because then combo's against him would be a lot esier, but because he's lighter, while he may be easier to kill he's harder to combo. Another pikachu complaint i see is that he lacks kill power but this is a non issue when you actually try to go for reads. if you cn read your opponent pikachu's usmash and f smash should not be an issue at all and most of his aerials gimp enough.

Personally i think the perfect example of a fast character that is balanced is brawl sonic. He can be extremely fast but he lacks the options other characters had. He relied on combo's that required on the spot thinking and didnt have anything that made that too easy. That said that sort of character aslo had its flaws and deserved some buffs. I would hate to see something similar happen to pikachu but i do feel some of his moves should be given less hit stun, do less damage, or have more base knockback so that they dont chain together in such an easy manner.

I would also like to point out that this very thread is based on reasons to not like pikachu and thats all im doing, im giving you reasons. :3 Though i do agree with the whole psychological warfare aspect, pika is very much that sort of character XD

I would have no issue seeing a tweak or nerf on pikachu but i do think he would deserve a buff in some area to counteract said thing as long as its an equal buff.

And as a note, i do want to point out that criticism isnt a bad thing As a sonic main i'm very well experienced in being hated or criticized for my character choice but i love the character and no nerfs or hate will change that so i respect your decision to keep playing pikachu in the face of aggression or hate. Its a great quality that you should keep, but if your not willing to see the positives your character has or accept that sort of criticism your not doing yourself any favors.

Anyways Have a Good Day :3
(Also when the major complain with sonic was his campiness, nerfing him in a way that makes him more campy doesnt help. )

I appreciate your criticism and reasoning, but you forget I'm just putting my input on the whole ordeal. It's not me rejecting your idea or perspective as a fact, for you to even consider that is ignorant(your favorite word apparently). Also I don't just main Pikachu, I main mutiple characters, such as Kirby, DH, Falco, Bowser, and Mario. I'm well aware of different perspectives besides Pikachu, for you to indicate I'm blind by one perspective is rather rude, and feel that was a unprofessional approach.

Anyways, saying Pikachu is too strong is as equivalent to saying Kirby is op. And yes, every character is different, they all have their own specialty, if they weren't different they're wouldn't be a tier list, now would it? It baffles me you shoot this statement down because you, yourself, main Sonic. A character with new attack moves in his arsenal, homing attack and spin dash. Pikachu's bread and butter is that he's light, has quick attacks and can still be vulnerable with certain attacks of his own, it's really not that hard at all to play against. You can get bodied, but it's avoidable. I main Bowser and get bodied by fast characters that can also be be more safe than before because of my own character, do I ever complain? No. Bowser gets bodied normally from one bad mistake by everyone, but I tend to mix things up.

Now for you to say Pikachu is "easy" makes your post look more dreadful to read right after the very sentence you said you main Sonic. An pick and play character. And you're making statements about Pikachu as if he were too easy and invulnerable, when he's just a balanced character. Not every can play Pikachu, he's kind of one of the gems in smash.

Tiers never matter to me because you can still beat a Zelda with a Shiek, I understand the whole concept of tiers but it always come down to playstyle of the player. Take melee for example, an unpolished game towards the balance of characters, yet players such as Axe, Nintendo dude, and yasa use characters that are not top tier. Yet they either win a tournament or come very close, beating top tier characters played by their competitors. Play style plays a big role.
For you to not know this, it shows you really need to back up what you're actually talking about instead of going along with what anyone says. Don't be a sheep.


It wasn't camping, nor did I ever had a problem with that, like ever. It was his back throw, it was way too strong. This is coming from a ex/returning Sonic main.

I stopped playing as Sonic for awhile as he was my very main and first. After awhile I got bored because Sonic is really a overly accessible character, a pick up and play. Just like Fox, but easier.

And please, proof read what you type. The amount of grammar errors and typos are quite horrendous to figure out what you're trying to type sometimes.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

This is just so bad. I won't go on a rant because I'm tired, however if you want me to explain how poor of a post this is, I'll do it tomorrow. Just ask. I will add this though: The only people who think SoRo is decent are people who don't use her or people who aren't very knowledgeable on her. So please don't spread misinformation.

1. For you to state my post "so bad" and not back up everything you say at all on why and not wanting to explain is considered irrelevant to my eyes. Your post is just as equivalent as of a empty message.

2. "The only people who think SoRo is decent are people who don't use her or people who aren't very knowledgeable on her. So please don't spread misinformation."
I have played her before and was able to get a good first week of matches. Just from playing as her one time. And the fact I even used luma to get out of grabs is just as believable as Luma breaking the momentum of another player's tatics and "SoRo" is decent enough to defend herself if you actually know what you're doing. You're probably the one that usually panics after Luma's death if you don't think so.

Not one statement in that post of mine was "misinformation". Instead of getting all butthurt and trying to defend your main from any views of others, how about you try looking in different perspectives and actually try to acknowledge the statements. For you to not think none of this ever happens is redonkulous, specially for someone who plays as her.

In conclusion, I would have to end up mixing things up anyways, not a big deal.

 

[KyroChao]

I appreciate your criticism and reasoning, but you forget I'm just putting my input on the whole ordeal. It's not me rejecting your idea or perspective as a fact, for you to even consider that is ignorant(your favorite word apparently). Also I don't just main Pikachu, I main mutiple characters, such as Kirby, DH, Falco, Bowser, and Mario. I'm well aware of different perspectives besides Pikachu, for you to indicate I'm blind by one perspective is rather rude, and feel that was a unprofessional approach.

I don't mean to say what you think is ignorant, by no means. I highly respect what you've said and have actually been enjoying the little talk. It's highly entertaining. I just want to make a say that a lot of mains have a closed in and ignorant view of things, not that you yourself do. Hell i'm probably fairly ignorant myself :3.

And the point of pikachu is that you do main pikachu, and it seems to me that he is your primary main. I do admit that was a bad assumption on my part so you have me there.

Anyways, saying Pikachu is too strong is as equivalent to saying Kirby is op. And yes, every character is different, they all have their own specialty, if they weren't different they're wouldn't be a tier list, now would it? It baffles me you shoot this statement down because you, yourself, main Sonic. A character with new attack moves in his arsenal, homing attack and spin dash. Pikachu's bread and butter is that he's light, has quick attacks and can still be vulnerable with certain attacks of his own, it's really not that hard at all to play against. You can get bodied, but it's avoidable. I main Bowser and get bodied by fast characters that can also be be more safe than before because of my own character, do I ever complain? No. Bowser gets bodied normally from one bad mistake by everyone, but I tend to mix things up.

I think you slightly misunderstand what i was saying about the unique aspects of characters. Yeah they all have something unique but the point i was making was that most have something that limits them too so that they don't stand out with a lot of options. Yes, I do main sonic who has several unique aspects being the fastest character and has his combo starting spin dashes(or charge). The thing is, sonic lost his ability to spin through projectiles with the loss of Burning Spin Dashes priority. Small attacks stop him in his tracks and shield leave him open thanks to its end lag. Can be avoided by jumping but then he's also vulnerable in the air. The homing attack point baffles me though because it's certainly not an exceptional move, if it misses(which is very easy to do), sonic suffers a lot of lag, and if he falls off the stage he has only a small frame to make it back, assuming he didnt lose his second jump. And the move is very easy to predict. I'm surprised though you didn't make the point that im a shulk main, a character certainly more unique than sonic is, and a great example of differing playstyles. My issue with pikachu though is that you cant trade with his moves too often because they have a lot of priority which is what allows him to body so well.

Now for you to say Pikachu is "easy" makes your post look more dreadful to read right after the very sentence you said you main Sonic. An pick and play character. And you're making statements about Pikachu as if he were too easy and invulnerable, when he's just a balanced character. Not every can play Pikachu, he's kind of one of the gems in smash.

The fact that I main sonic isnt too relevant considering i also main Shulk, a character that isn't easy to use. My basis on pikachu being easy is a comparison between my two mains, sonic and shulk. He's not as easy to use as sonic, but he has better options than him. However, he isn't as hard as shulk. I'm basing this on the time it took to rival NachoThePikachu in terms of play and skill. I didn't match but it was very close, and it was only after a day of play. I can respect saying pikachu isn't that easy but I don't think it's a fair thing to say he's very hard. HOWEVER, online, pikachu is probably one of the hardest to use. He is an incredibly lag sensitive character who is probably one of the hardest to use with any lag along with Ryu and a few others.I just base my judgement of him on offline play.

Tiers never matter to me because you can still beat a Zelda with a Shiek, I understand the whole concept of tiers but it always come down to playstyle of the player. Take melee for example, an unpolished game towards the balance of characters, yet players such as Axe, Nintendo dude, and yasa use characters that are not top tier. Yet they either win a tournament or come very close, beating top tier characters played by their competitors. Play style plays a big role.
For you to not know this, it shows you really need to back up what you're actually talking about instead of going along with what anyone says. Don't be a sheep.

Yes, good point, but this isn't melee we're talking about. I understand the point but melee has several more options in general and is a far more advanced game. That is a good point regardless, but this isn't the most consistent thing either. Melee's top tiers still plague the tournaments and there's no denying that. I respect this point regardless.
I don't mean to seem to be a sheep but in my experience in tournaments and seeing tournaments, this is simply the case and has the evidence to support it. A playstyle can only go so far. And i find this an odd point to make if you make the point that you have to fight pikachu differently. What you're essentially saying here is that you need a good play style to do good, but you have to fight pikachu differently. What this means is you have to go out of your comfort zone and play differently, something a player likely wont be as good at.

Yeah, sonic IS a pick up and play, an excessively pick up and play.But what are you basing this off of? For as much of a pick up and play he is, he has major flaws that are easy to exploit. The spin dash is very easy to stop and predict thanks to it's start up, and once it's stopped you have time to punish. He doesn't have many good and reliable combo's outside of his spin dash too, he relies heavily on reads to keep the damage coming. You remade the fox comparison but seem to have ignored the fact that fundamentally fox can do better than sonic can.

Again, I really enjoy this discussion. I don't know about you but it is very entertaining and a good time. Have a nice day :3

((I'm really sorry about any errors in my writing, but my computer doesn't react very well to this website. It suffers very large amounts of lag which make it a chore. To fix this, I typed this out on a seperate page which should hopefully have solved some of the issue for you))

Also I heavily agree with you on the post about SoRo

 

[Ritronaut]

As a shulk player, i personally cannot stand fighting pikachu because pikachu always stands as an example of a character with almost every option in competitive play. Pikachu can zone, use grab combo's, throw set ups to kill, can camp, can go in hit and run, and has a way to deal with almost every single character that isnt luigi because of priority.

It also doesnt help that pikachu really does have a lot of safe moves. I cant even count the number of times ive been aproached with a dair and shield the hit and the ground hit box, but miss the punish because pikachu practically flattens himself. Its a case where pikachu not only has safe options with little lag but some of his more laggy moves also leave him in safer positions that other characters simply dont have.

"Because of priority" Excuse me...? He can deal with characters because of priority, that really makes NO sense, come up with a better reason.

Pikachu has a lot of safe moves...? Fair is insanely unsafe on shield, Dair is too, git gud at punishing it, because you threw out the wrong move and didnt punish his dair doesnt mean it's safe. Even autocanceling the dair isn't actually safe and can be punished when pikachu is landing. Yes, his landing lag makes his hurtboxes smaller, it's still punishable, use your down smash or down tilt or something, don't complain because YOU didn't manage to do anything.

I never said he was a straight pick up and play character. There is a lot to him and hes definitely one that takes practice and skill, but im saying of hard to use characters he's not quite up there. Pikachu is still piss easy to pick up and use compared to a lot of characters but that doesnt mean he isnt hard to use. Swiftness doesnt matter unless you come from a chracter who is bulky and slow naturally, only then is it a hard shift.

The argument that no one is the same dwindles down a little when you realize that a lot of characters ARE similar. When you have a game with such drastic differences when they do exist, such as pikachu's smaller hurtbox, you need to keep some options restricted to ensure they cant get away with a lot of things other characters can while doing things the others also cant. I think the best example is G&W who CAN have a insanely small hurtbox but he doesnt have insane kill options or set ups like other characters do. Pikachu simply isnt like this and can avoid a lot of basic punishes because of the safety of his moves.

And frankly i still disagree, i still think its just a blindness pikachu players have that their character is perfect. This isnt limited to only pikachu players though dont get me wrong a lot of players have the same ideas. But s you said, pikachu has fast attacks that lead into very handy set ups that can lead to kills. Pikachu also has aan incredible gimp game. He has good smashes. Is fast and can recover from almost anything. He is lighter than some other characters but thats also a good thing, If he was a heavier character or a fast faller that small hurtbox would matter less because then combo's against him would be a lot esier, but because he's lighter, while he may be easier to kill he's harder to combo. Another pikachu complaint i see is that he lacks kill power but this is a non issue when you actually try to go for reads. if you cn read your opponent pikachu's usmash and f smash should not be an issue at all and most of his aerials gimp enough.

I would also like to point out that this very thread is based on reasons to not like pikachu and thats all im doing, im giving you reasons. :3 Though i do agree with the whole psychological warfare aspect, pika is very much that sort of character XD

I would have no issue seeing a tweak or nerf on pikachu but i do think he would deserve a buff in some area to counteract said thing as long as its an equal buff.

Anyways Have a Good Day :3
(Also when the major complain with sonic was his campiness, nerfing him in a way that makes him more campy doesnt help. )

Piss easy to pick up...? How so, you just said he's piss easy and really provided nothing to prove your point. I think Pikachu is very difficult to pick up, mastering his QA and combos and his options isn't really that easy. Pikachu doesn't kill as easy as you say, his upsmash has no range, and is punishable, along with his fsmash, his up throw to down b is good, but it's not always reliable, it's very difficult to truly master it. You're just saying things without backing them up "oh pikachus easy because I picked him up and found him easy. No offense, i bet you were a really **** Pikachu, maybe you picked him and and used scrubby tactics in order to win, but I doubt you used him to any actual potential. You are coming into our thread and calling our character piss easy to use with no actual proof or backup. I think he is one of the harder characters to use. In tournament when it really matters, he needs to be precise with QA, with his aerials because they ARE very punishable if used wrong and he DOES have trouble killing, because he needs to be in very close range to use upsmash, his best kill aerial, and that's punishable and shieldable, and his fsmash is slow. None of his aerials gimp either. A good way to kill is gimping offstage but that's not really that easy, since his offstage moves have no range.

My issue with pikachu though is that you cant trade with his moves too often because they have a lot of priority which is what allows him to body so well.

priority...? Priority...? PRIority....??? PRIORITY.....????????? Ok, I see what you're saying but really...? Your issue is that you can't trade with his moves...? What moves...? Sure he has a disjointed fsmash, but all disjoints don't trade, his upsmash can clank and trade and all his tilts trade as well... I have no clue what your vague statement means.

I'm basing this on the time it took to rival NachoThePikachu in terms of play and skill. I didn't match but it was very close, and it was only after a day of play. I can respect saying pikachu isn't that easy but I don't think it's a fair thing to say he's very hard.

Look, if youre judging this based on how you rivaled another Pikachu, you're doing it wrong. I'm gonna bet you just used fundamentals and little to no actual Pikachu tech or things Pikachu does whatsoever. I'm going to assume your fundamentals just made you do alright. If I practiced shulk for a day, my fundamentals are way better than yours, I didn't do any actual tech skill or any advanced things with him, and just played using my fundamentals and did well against you, then I guess shulk is piss easy to use huh?

What you're essentially saying here is that you need a good play style to do good, but you have to fight pikachu differently. What this means is you have to go out of your comfort zone and play differently, something a player likely wont be as good at.

...Git gud dude, just because other people can't adapt to the matchup of your character doesn't make him easier, it just makes you bad.

Basically, you're really just coming in here with just assumptions and no actual solid ways that Pikachu is easy. You're saying all these things about our character that isn't true and basing it on really nothing except your scrubby day one Pikachu. You're saying that were ignorant about our character being easy and safe, but in reality it seems you really know nothing about him, you're making assumptions based off of how bad you play against him, and complaining about things you can adapt to. Pikachu is NOT easy to pick up and NOT easy to master.

 

[Planty]

1. For you to state my post "so bad" and not back up everything you say at all on why and not wanting to explain is considered irrelevant to my eyes. Your post is just as equivalent as of a empty message.

2. "The only people who think SoRo is decent are people who don't use her or people who aren't very knowledgeable on her. So please don't spread misinformation."
I have played her before and was able to get a good first week of matches. Just from playing as her one time. And the fact I even used luma to get out of grabs is just as believable as Luma breaking the momentum of another player's tatics and "SoRo" is decent enough to defend herself if you actually know what you're doing. You're probably the one that usually panics after Luma's death if you don't think so.

Not one statement in that post of mine was "misinformation". Instead of getting all butthurt and trying to defend your main from any views of others, how about you try looking in different perspectives and actually try to acknowledge the statements. For you to not think none of this ever happens is redonkulous, specially for someone who plays as her.

In conclusion, I would have to end up mixing things up anyways, not a big deal.

Well I did say that you could ask for reasoning and I didn't explain myself because I was tired, so no need to go on a rant. Also your last sentence: "In conclusion, I would have to mix things up anyways." WTF are you talking about there? I can't figure it out. Anyway, response time.

Your judging a character based on 1 week of playing.
I'm judging a character based on nearly 8 months of experience. I've analysed many different matchups beyond a simple pros and cons list. I play her in tournament. I know her frame data. I'm even developing tech for her. I think I have a pretty good grasp on this character.

About Luma breaking grabs, there's 2 ways that works: You input an attack but Rosalina gets grabbed, Luma still finishes his attack and breaks the grab(I can say from experience that this almost never happens). The second way is if you're holding Rosalina for way too long and you gain control of Luma again (I can say from experience that this absolutely never happens against someone good) And using Luma breaking you out of grabs as a way of saying that she's easy is just silly. She is so much more complex than that. A little gimmick that rarely plays a role in a a match does not make a character easy. I also seriously question your opinion on "easy" when you say that Fox is pick up and play. Fox is an extremely precise and technical character with a huge emphasis on positioning and matchup knowledge.

Now, why is Rosalina hard? Well, I'll get to that. One thing I have a feeling of is that you think defensive play is easy. You think zoning is easy. This paragraph will mostly be explaining how wrong of a statement that is (If you already know that zoning is difficult you could skip a bit). Zoning, and I mean actual zoning, not Link rolling around and charging arrows, is the complicated process of using hitboxes and potential hitboxes to create space while simultaneously staying unpredictable with your next option and flustering the opponent to condition them into unsafe ways of alleviating pressure that can later be capitalized on. To successfully zone, one must be aware of all his options and all the opponents options in the neutral state to correctly counter the aggressive option. These options are matchup dependent, and as such, are never universal and zoning patterns must be changed game by game, stock by stock, or even hit by hit. By definition, all characters are zoners. In layman's terms, it's much more difficult than it looks.

Now, why is Rosalina a difficult character? For one, you have to learn 3 characters to play her optimally: Rosalina with Luma, Rosalina with Luma separated, and SoRo. All 3 play differently and you must know how to play each one of them. Now imagine doing EVERYTHING described in the previous paragraph, while keeping track of the movements of a sentient being, knowing how to move him, his health, his respawn timer, and his positioning, all the while using a character that plays like absolutely nobody else, with very strange tech that has never been seen before in other smash games or fighting games in general, and requires extensive matchup knowledge to be effective and working past the effects of being tall, light, and floaty, or TLF and learning double the frame data while knowing each and every single one of Luma's quirks. Know that you're in a minority when you say she is a simple character, too.

Now it's SoRo time. Remember how I said people who think she is good are people who tend to not use her or people who don't understand her well? So you have 1 week of experience with her and think she's decent and who agrees with you? KyroChao does, another non Rosalina player. That's just something that I've picked up over my 8 months with the character. So how good is she? Well, SoRo is a bit like Yoshi, the more you analyze them, the worse they start looking. When you view SoRo's moveset in a vacuum, it looks good, but in practice it just doesn't mesh well. It's the reason that SoRo is about 30:70 against pretty much the whole cast. (Against rushdown characters or those whom capitalize well off mistakes like or the matchup is more along the lines of 15:85 and I'm NOT exaggerating to prove a point I swear). This is the reason that most top level players, including Dabuz, rank her as one of the worst characters in the game.