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Why do "Casuals" care?

Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
166
DogySamich said:
Smash is the only game where, in large, a majority of the game is taken away during legit competitive play. Is that a bad thing? Um... no, it kinda has to be done if brawl wants any shot at being "competitive".
This. Everyone read this over a few times, because it's absolutely true.

You guys can spew out all you want "There is no one way Smash was 'meant' to be played" but the fact of the matter is, yes there is. There is inherent imbalance and unfairness in Smash Bros. because those sorts of things are what allow the game to be fun, at least in Sakurai's eyes. Even if you played with no items on Final Destination, let's say 1v1 against a Peach, it's possible that every single time Peach presses down+B she'll pull out a Bob-omb or a Beam Sword. Or every time G&W pressed forward+B he got a 9. Or even the fact that EVERY CHARACTER CAN TRIP RANDOMLY FOR NO REASON AT ALL. Why would Sakurai leave in such blatantly random elements when they have so much capacity for ruining "competitive" play? It's only a matter of time before someone's tripping ruins a high-level match and the competitive types whine about Brawl being completely unfair.

tl;dr Smash is not a competitive game just because you have the options of turning items off.
 

dude984

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
67
So I've been trying to get better at the game and I found this place awhile back. I've pretty much just been using it for info and tips but one thing has been bothering me: Why do casuals care what other people are doing soooo much? Am I missing something? Are competitive players wavedashing into they're houses at night and forcing them to play with them?

The way I see it, obviously if they think "Advanced Techs" are sooo bad none of their friends use them and in turn they NEVER have to see them being done/have them done to them. I mean saying people NEED to play with items, not edgegaurd, spam attacks in certain situations, ect is pretty ridiculous seeing as how they probably just got done playing a game with their friend and come on smashboards for the first time and say something like "WHAT?! This is an OUTRAGE that people would even do this. This HAS to be stopped."

I mostly just play with my brother for now and we don't play with items just because it's annoying to me to have some street fighter guy pop out and punch me into oblivion, or have a flower pop out that shoots out flames, ect. Same with the levels I don't play the levels that kill me because its annoying to get killed by anything other than the person I'm fighting. But enlighten me, it's not that big of a deal but it just boggles my mind why someone would come onto a competitive forum and complain about the way people are playing

Also please don't take this as me trying to get you to play a certain way.
I'm a casual player...but I've had numerous cases where other players try to enforce tourny rules in our matches. The group I play with use some techs (that apply to brawl...no wavedashing for us!) but we enjoy items and all the stages and whatnot. However, we do have a few friends who always try to enforce their practices into friendly matches...even against extremely casual players to don't know techs or anything. I was at a birthday party where one of these such individuals ran the TV with Melee on it. You know the drill: no items, final destination only, and the kid only used Fox. For a party or just a bunch of friends hanging out, this just wasn't fun and was really annoying.

Now, one of my friends and I are thinking of entering a tourny or two, so we're practicing (both with and without items to cover all sides of the argument), but we still typically play with items and whatnot.

to answer your question, the reason we care is because these individuals (who are good friends...it's not like we CAN'T hang out with them) always try and enforce the rules on our games. Also, when we come to this site to discuss the game and aspects about it, the boards are filled with threads such as "This stage is banned" as well as numerous "Y nOO w@vedashh1ng!" conversations. Grr...

Tourney rules have thier place. And while I agree with great joy that Brawl is filled with much more advanced techniques then melee, the game is predominantly played by the casual audience. I'll play tourney rules when I need to, but not all the time...

Plus, the stage hazards add charm to them as well as variety...me likes them... :)

Hope this came close to answering your question...
 

DraginHikari

Emerald Star Legacy
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
2,821
Location
Omaha, NE
NNID
Draginhikari
3DS FC
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Gees, just when I hoped this was done and over with another one of these pop up...

The real issue with the way your putting this thing is that a MAJORITY of the casual DON'T care whether the tournment scene exists or not... your confusing a standard casual from the excessive mouthy ones around here.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
Either quit complaining and play Melee forever, or adapt, improve, and meet everyone else on their own ground. The "competitive" credo is a fair fight above all else, right?

Then learn to play without your precious (and often useless) "advanced techs."
I'm using this for my thread. I don't understand what you're trying to say at all. Who is complaining? What are you even talking about? If by complaining you mean pointing out plain and obvious faults in Brawl, then why should we stop?

And what does switching to an inferior game have to do with improving? And maybe I'm just stupid but I'd like to know specifically what this competitive credo is referencing.

I heard gooseman owned the thread on page one and I'm sitting here wondering what his point is.
 

MysteriousSilver

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
774
Location
Lincoln, NE
I can wavedash shffl and all that, but I'd still call myself a casual. I love crazy stages, items, and all that, don't usually play in tournies.

Anyway, here's why I care: At a halo tourny in my city, before Brawl was released, they had an import to be played off to the side. A whole new game full of new items, assist trophies, SMASH BALLS and the like, complex stages like Warioware, and all sots of fun things like that, and what did most of the players do?

Items off. Smash Balls off. Fox. Final Destination.

A casual, being outnumbered there, had no option to see the new items or stages because no one wanted to play with them. Final Smashes, an entirely new gameplay mechanic with moves unique to each character, totally ignored in favor of basically trying to play Melee on brawl.

I care because if effects me when I have to deal with it.

I also hate having to deal with people who call me a n00b because I chose pokefloats, then still call me a n00b after I wipe the floor with them because all they did was wavedash back and forth or something. Not real tourny players I know, the "wannabes" mentioned earlier, but it annoys the piss out of me.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
-i didnt bother reading anybody's post-

Why do "causals" care?

Eh, probably because the "definition" of casual is

1) Buy the game
2) Open the game
3) Pop the game in the system
4) Play

By that definition, the casual gamer gets to see the game "as it was intended to be" fresh out of the box.

So, the casual by every games standards should be the same. What changes is obviously the tourney set.

if a casual goes to a CvS2 tourney, they're not going to feel TOO out of place (unless they only play 3v3, but that's another story for another day). if a casual goes to a MvC2, they're not going to feel TOO out of place (again, another story for another day)

Take a Brawl casual to a tourney, and you get what all the scrubs, nubs, trolls, and 4chan kids alike whine about. "OH MY GOD YOU TOOK MY ITEMS, YOU TOOK MY SMASH BALLS. WHERE'S WARIO'S STAGE? WAAAAAAAAH"

Smash is the only game where, in large, a majority of the game is taken away during legit competitive play. Is that a bad thing? Um... no, it kinda has to be done if brawl wants any shot at being "competitive".

____
But as for the casual gamer itself.

Look at the casual gamer for Brawl and then look at the casual gamer for ANY OTHER BIG NAME COMPETITIVE GAME EVER IN THE HISTORY OF MAINSTREAM COMPETITIVE GAMING.

"What do you mean dogy?"

Look at the "casual gamer" him/herself compared to the casual game of

Unreal Tournament
Marvel vs Capcom 2
Starcraft
Halo
Guitar Hero
Counter Strike

etc, etc, etc (you get what im aiming at here).

In EVERY OTHER GAME EVER BROUGHT TO THE PUBLIC EYE OF COMPETITIVE GAMING, the game itself was a game made for and aimed at the older "gaming generation" of it's time. Where as brawl is the is "in large" aimed at the younger portion of the generation. (and no, you cant try to convince me that it is aimed at a majority of the population with cracked out stages like the Warioware stage XD)



I agree with this wholeheartedly.
 

Niblet

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
39
I'm going to chime in having not read the other replies.

Casuals feel butthurt. They understand Sakurai's intent for the game. They play it the way Sakurai intended the game be played. Casuals are displeased with the idea that a game that was not intended as a serious affair is being taken as one. Things like items are a core aspect of the game and even though you are given the choice to turn them off, the intended way to play the game is with items.

In Melee they hated WDing because it was a glitch that turned the game in a direction it wasn't supposed to go. They disliked the fact that you didn't play on every stage. Sakurai and his team put a lot of work into it and to not play on all stages were blasphemous.

They hate how you analyze each character and felt the need to group them in tiers. Instead of playing a character because you like them and/or their playstyle, you sample mostly from the upper tiers for winning potential. Instead of playing with starfox because you like the N64 game, you played with Fox because he was the best.

I think this is a relatively good impersonation of how a casual thinks.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
I'm going to chime in having not read the other replies.

Casuals feel butthurt. They understand Sakurai's intent for the game. They play it the way Sakurai intended the game be played. Casuals are displeased with the idea that a game that was not intended as a serious affair is being taken as one. Things like items are a core aspect of the game and even though you are given the choice to turn them off, the intended way to play the game is with items.

In Melee they hated WDing because it was a glitch that turned the game in a direction it wasn't supposed to go. They disliked the fact that you didn't play on every stage. Sakurai and his team put a lot of work into it and to not play on all stages were blasphemous.

They hate how you analyze each character and felt the need to group them in tiers. Instead of playing a character because you like them and/or their playstyle, you sample mostly from the upper tiers for winning potential. Instead of playing with starfox because you like the N64 game, you played with Fox because he was the best.

I think this is a relatively good impersonation of how a casual thinks.
That's how a scrub thinks. Casual players don't post on smashboards that often, and are misrepresented by scrubs.
 

BlackYoshi7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
102
Location
Wisconsin/Illionis
Why? The truth is 85% of them don't care; they are trolls from either GameFAQs or 4chan, and they enjoy getting a rise out of people by being idiotic and annoying.
 

Motoxpro

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
7
Well, having read all the posts in here I think I now understand why some casuals complain as they do. Looks to me as it's the people that have experienced part of the competitive community, and I understand that because its like that in ANYTHING you do. For example if you just played basketball with friends and never watched a game on TV, never saw anyone good play, ect and a pro came to your house and was doing crazy fade always or pump fakes ect you wouldn't know what to say or do. It's the same way with videogames anytime you play at a high level you have people analyzing the game, trying to figure out what they can do better or how they can get a little more damage out of their attacks.

As a casual being thrown into all of this seems like it would be a little overwhelming, especially if you go to a tournament. I mean you beat all of your friends all of the time how would you know that there is someone better than you at a videogame if it's not online? It would definitely be an ego check, thats for sure lol. And at a very high level of play most of the time(im not going to say this for brawl is the amount of people trying to find Advanced Techs is ridiculous) the people finding the techniques that are being used is the final product of someone saying "How can I get better? How can I counter this persons move?" MOST of the professionals of any game are not trying to "break" the game because if they did they could no longer get payed to do what they love.

However I do see this as a "competitive" forum because if you're a casual you don't come to message boards about a video game and post. So I think sometimes it's a little ridiculous for casuals to come here and post things like "Items I think should be in tourneys" or "Stop glitching out the game noobs" ect as most likely they will just get shot down because of the people playing here. It would be nice for people to have some common sense

And for the people that say this has been posted before, like I said before I'm new to the game and the forums so I haven't seen this before AND I wanted to know the logic behind they're posts. I've played many many games competitively and never seen anything like it and it shocked me because its coming from a game thats NOT online. But thanks for the replies and stuff, I appreciate the casuals that have open minds and helped me get a better understanding of the whole situation.
 

stfunerds

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
97
Location
Los Angeles/AIM: gmkah04
we care because

1. oft times competitive players intereplace life and smash in: your a noob at smash.
Basically people let their skill at the game go to their head and gives them an uneccessary sense of arrogance. Personally I don't like having to deal with arrogant people, whether its from a game, grades, sports, or w/e
2. We see our fellow man losing his humanity by trying to master a video game, something completely artificial, which didn't even exist 20 years ago. (yes I know the first video game was created in 1958, but really the popularity of games as they exist today didn't start until 20 or so years back) Call it a fear of technological consumption if you will, it is the loss of a life to a machine. when another human devotes their life to a lifeless electronical device it can be frightening.

The other reasons have mostly been stated already.
 

Superstarmario

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
254
Wait wait wait.

Hating people who use advanced techniques, and trolling every single AT or tourny related thread comes from a kid who regulated "tourney" rules around you?

Seriously?

That's what this is all about?

C'mon now. That's the dumbest crap I ever heard. Because someone wavedashed circles around you, you get all butthurt and troll smashboards? That's some lame ****. Is losing really that bad? Is anyone FORCING you to play with these people that *gasp* like to play with no items? That like to play their way?

That's rich.
 

dude984

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
67
That's how a scrub thinks. Casual players don't post on smashboards that often, and are misrepresented by scrubs.
because we get responses like that...

However I do see this as a "competitive" forum because if you're a casual you don't come to message boards about a video game and post. So I think sometimes it's a little ridiculous for casuals to come here and post things like "Items I think should be in tourneys" or "Stop glitching out the game noobs" ect as most likely they will just get shot down because of the people playing here. It would be nice for people to have some common sense
I'm a casual player who loves smashboards and discussing the game. It's kind of like the Halo boards...at bungie.net and nikon.bungie.org, there are MASSIVE communities that are very helpful towards each other...there is a HUGE community and literally hundreds of sub-communities within the overall Halo community. Just to name a few...there are:

Competitive players
Tournament
Very competitive

Casual players
Meeting players
Friendly matches online

Glitch finders

Oddities
Funny occurrences

Tricking

Vehicle flipping/jumping
Well-timed techniques
Grenade jumpers

Speed running
Fastest time (single)
Fastest time (co-op)

Machinima

Comedy
Drama
Series
Everyday shows

Level creators
Racing tracks
Competitive levels
Artistic stages (like using parts to make a gundam...while not meant to play...it looks awesome)

Gametype creators
Grifball (like football, but with swords, hammers, bombs and Halo 3)
Racing
Other types

Art
Screenshots
Saved Films

Everything on those lists were ENTIRELY different and very in-depth communities...and this is just ONE GAME...if Halo 3 can have such a MASSIVE casual (I should probably say non-competitive) fan community...why can't Smash Brothers?

dude984 out!
 

Motoxpro

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
7
2. We see our fellow man losing his humanity by trying to master a video game, something completely artificial, which didn't even exist 20 years ago. (yes I know the first video game was created in 1958, but really the popularity of games as they exist today didn't start until 20 or so years back) Call it a fear of technological consumption if you will, it is the loss of a life to a machine. when another human devotes their life to a lifeless electronical device it can be frightening.
This is the WORST arguement you could make, as in turn you're saying that Computer Programmers should "get a life" or that any Tech Support should "get a life." Look a chess "omg its just a game with a bunch of wooden peices, im starting to fear the board is taking you over."(I love chess, please dont take this the wrong way) Thats pretty much what you're saying, and I could say that about ANYTHING you do in your life, it's pretty arrogant that you think what you do is sooo much more important. If people want to play video games let them.
 

Razorsaw

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
88
Meh.

First of all, there's a lot of stereotyping here. I applaud the people who are trying to get to the core of the problem, but I don't think anyone's gotten it.

I think the best definition of a casual smasher in this community's context is someone who doesn't try to play as a competitive player. This runs the gamut of people who pick it up just because it's a game, people who are just getting into it, and even people who love the series and its incarnations but still don't want to be a competitive player. I think the majority of us who bother to read the posts here with any seriousness fall into the third category, and I think casual smash fans are an important and large member of the fandom.

The competitve players, while seemingly largely represented and important in places like this, actually represent a minority and a niche group among the people who support this game. Frankly, a hardcore fanbase isn't enough to generate the sales that this game gets. There's an inflated sense of self importance that a significant amount of competitive fans that they're the only ones that matter.

I'm not saying competitive fans are "bad fans." It's the attitude that's spread around that turns off most people like myself. And yes, trying to crack the game and work hard is something to be rewarded. But waving around terms like "noob" and "scrub" and acting as if we're lazy, stupid, or misguided only ends up coming across as obnoxious. In other words, most of the attitude is like a high school foot ball star picking on someone in a smaller social hierarchy. And because the VISIBLE fandom - the one here at Smashboard, and other places, and NOT the majority of people playing and buying it - seems to have a majority of competitive players, there's an inflated sense of importance. Add that to the blatant antagonism and posturing due to having a higher post count, and it doesn't engender a positive sense of interaction. In short, casuals are generally seen as "not true fans" and made to feel like outsiders.

And then there's the sense of entitlement. There have been a significant amount of people who have undersold Brawl and demonized its producers based on it not owning up to their expectations. Earlier I stated that the competitive players are not the majority, they are the minority. The game is not neccessarily intended to be "for competitive", and neither was Melee and Smash Bros. before it. However, people either inflate the importance of making it "for" competitive players (due to the mistaken view of themselves as the core audience), or blame the casuals, "scrubs", and "noobs" for what Brawl "has become." Add to that the fact that the serious players could be jumping the gun - which is a very real and very distinct possibility - that there will be "nothing" for competitive players, and the competitives end up coming across to us as casuals as overzealous and unfair. It's also not correct to say the game "sucks" depending on the standards of the actual minority, as there's an even larger number of standards that need to be considered there.

Not to say that casual fans are completely blameless, and far from it. I myself have gone into multiple arguments without understanding or being mistaken about advanced techniques and concerns. Even more still fall prey to the act of stereotyping, and making worthless arguments about how "Brawl isn't Melee" without considering the full scope of the situation. The biggest problem is that there's a complete lack of diplomacy on ANY side, and we're all too quick to judge the other side as "true fans" as a whole. I realize my argument may sound stilted as I've focused on the competitive players far more in this write up, but even then - I'd say there's a significant amount of "blame" leveled at both sides.

But then, pointing fingers isn't the answer. It's quite simply getting over it, and going about your day. This is the INTERNET, and trying to make people realize they're being, to be frank, total morons over a video game - an admittedly awesome and signficant piece of work - is a futile effort at best. But even then, if this keeps more people from labelling one another as trolls, who am I to object?

I celebrate Smash because I love the franchises represented in it, the opportunities Brawl has given me to try new things, the artistic and programming aspects that ended up creating this whole package. I like trophies, I like music, I like celebrating my favorite franchises and getting a look at new ones. I like being able to interact with my friends on-line and playing with them. And I enjoy the thrill of combat using video cartoon characters, the idea of a match up between Sonic and Mario that's been years in the making, and just plain beating the crap out of something. That's no more or less pure than someone whose spent hours, days, or even years honing their Marth or Falco to near perfection. I may find it personally trite and unworthwhile, but in the end, we're all here for the same god ****ed reason.

We want to have fun.
 

Motoxpro

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
7
Causal care because they don't want "hardcore games" that take forever. Causal games only care for five mins and there done. That's it.
Ok. And who is forcing you to play with "hardcore" gamers again?

Nice post Razor, again though this isn't about casual vs competitive. I am fully aware that the competitive community doesnt make up the majority but doesn't that just strengthen my arguement? If casuals are so abundant wouldnt it be so much easier to seek out a friend or fellow casual to play with that doesnt wavedash ect? Which would eliminate the need to come smashboards and tell others that they are playing wrong and not having fun.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Here is a little story that may help you understand why we dislike advanced tactics so much...

I'm a casual player. There is a videogame club in my school. They held a smash tournament for fun. So I entered. There were I think about 32 people in the tourney. 30 were casual players. 2 were advanced players. So as we started the tournament it became clear that these guys were way out of everyone's league. And they decided not to hold back and just completely destroy us. So instead of enjoying the tournament we just went through the motions till the inevitable Marth/Fox pro confrontation at the end. I should mention that the prize was a 10 dollar gift card to Gamestop. So its not like a lot was up for grabs and they really had to play to the best of their abilities to secure a valuable prize.

So I went to a meeting of this club later which is just for people to hang out and play videogames. Smash was set up. We had it set to 4 players items and all stages. And of course there were these two pro players whining about how it should be 1 on 1, how we should turn off the items, etc etc. And any time they lost in a four way they would talk about how if items were off and it was one on one they would killed us. I think many casual smashers have met people like this and its left a bad taste in their mouth.

(Oh and just for the record not all casuals play with items or with every stage on.)
 

AustiniusRex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
224
Location
Temporary. Soon to be replaced by a zombie-proof
Here is a little story that may help you understand why we dislike advanced tactics so much...

I'm a casual player. There is a videogame club in my school. They held a smash tournament for fun. So I entered. There were I think about 32 people in the tourney. 30 were casual players. 2 were advanced players. So as we started the tournament it became clear that these guys were way out of everyone's league. And they decided not to hold back and just completely destroy us. So instead of enjoying the tournament we just went through the motions till the inevitable Marth/Fox pro confrontation at the end. I should mention that the prize was a 10 dollar gift card to Gamestop. So its not like a lot was up for grabs and they really had to play to the best of their abilities to secure a valuable prize.

So I went to a meeting of this club later which is just for people to hang out and play videogames. Smash was set up. We had it set to 4 players items and all stages. And of course there were these two pro players whining about how it should be 1 on 1, how we should turn off the items, etc etc. And any time they lost in a four way they would talk about how if items were off and it was one on one they would killed us. I think many casual smashers have met people like this and its left a bad taste in their mouth.

(Oh and just for the record not all casuals play with items or with every stage on.)
Quoted for the win. You sir, completely understand and gave a very good example. Thank you.
 

SenorPresidente

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
615
Location
Des Moines, IA
Here is a little story that may help you understand why we dislike advanced tactics so much...

I'm a casual player. There is a videogame club in my school. They held a smash tournament for fun. So I entered. There were I think about 32 people in the tourney. 30 were casual players. 2 were advanced players. So as we started the tournament it became clear that these guys were way out of everyone's league. And they decided not to hold back and just completely destroy us. So instead of enjoying the tournament we just went through the motions till the inevitable Marth/Fox pro confrontation at the end. I should mention that the prize was a 10 dollar gift card to Gamestop. So its not like a lot was up for grabs and they really had to play to the best of their abilities to secure a valuable prize.

So I went to a meeting of this club later which is just for people to hang out and play videogames. Smash was set up. We had it set to 4 players items and all stages. And of course there were these two pro players whining about how it should be 1 on 1, how we should turn off the items, etc etc. And any time they lost in a four way they would talk about how if items were off and it was one on one they would killed us. I think many casual smashers have met people like this and its left a bad taste in their mouth.

(Oh and just for the record not all casuals play with items or with every stage on.)
It sound awfully familiar to this
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ue_138/2970-If-Only-Wally-West-Could-Wavedash
There was a thread about this. In the end it was your guises fault for not stating the rules etc of the tournament itself.
Edit: let me expand on this.
Those two players came expecting an average ordinary tourney. If you friends didn't want to deal with superior skilled players then you should had advertised it as a friendly casual gathering.
 

Gekigarion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
61
I only went to one Melee tourney, but I'd say I was pretty competitive at the game and for the most part, completely outclassed a lot of my friends. I'm not trying to brag, but it was a pretty clear fact, and I know I was making the game frustrating and almost seemingly unfair to them. It's true that they don't have to play against me if they don't want to, but being friends, playing games with each other is what we do. it's not like they're just going to say, "No, I hate playing with you," or anything along that line.

I was frustrated with the situation myself. 4-stocking friends that just wanted to play for fun really didn't make it fun for them or myself. One friend asked me to teach him how to play and after a week, I was amazed at his progress. I decided that he would learn better if I played seriously against him, so from then on I held no punches. He never won a single match since then, and after a while he simply quit the game altogether. It never occurred to me that maybe he wasn't playing to be competitive, but rather he was just playing for fun. It's not really fun when all you get to do is desperately dodge attacks that you can't read until you die.

I'm thinking that's how a lot of casuals feel when they play against people who are skilled enough to be considered competitive. Instead of laughing with his friends because he just got a Smash Ball instead of his friend who fell off the stage chasing it, all he gets to do is get smacked around like a rag doll. Though it's the same in many other fighting games (I play 3rd Strike against my tourney-level friend and he tends to KO me without me ever landing a blow for many matches), to many people, Smash is a game where they feel like they can fight even if they're unskilled at the game. Add the 4-player element to it that's so party-friendly, and Smash becomes a widely accepted game that anyone can pick up and play. As soon as someone run in and starts chaingrabbing people and utterly destroying everyone, though, he's the only person having fun, and all everyone else gets to do is pick up a controller and play a game where all they remember doing is trying to get back to the edge.

While I agree that it doesn't really solve anything to run onto Smashboards and spout out flames, I think it's completely understandable why so many casual players become frustrated when what they consider to be an excellent party game can so easily be destroyed just because someone decided to run in and beat on people that aren't on his level of play.

As for me, I take my games with my casual friends in the same manner as they do now. I don't concentrate on doing massive combos, and if the game still feels lopsided to the degree where they can't even fight back, I'll simply pit them on teams against me. I want to keep the game as a party game when I'm with them, because that's what it is to them. When I'm with my more competitive buddies, I'll go all out, but since they're competitive, they won't mind at all of course.
 

TheMuffinMan0311

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
147
It sound awfully familiar to this
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ue_138/2970-If-Only-Wally-West-Could-Wavedash
There was a thread about this. In the end it was your guises fault for not stating the rules etc of the tournament itself.
Edit: let me expand on this.
Those two players came expecting an average ordinary tourney. If you friends didn't want to deal with superior skilled players then you should had advertised it as a friendly casual gathering.
The point of the story was that wannabe competitive don't care whether something is a casual setting or not, they completely live their lives by what the competitive scene does despite never attending any serious competition in their lives, regardless of this they want to make sure that they dominate all the 'scrubs' around them (because they don't have anyone else around them to play) and ruin the fun for anyone trying to play the game around them who does not play the way the Tournaments do.

So, most casuals I'd say don't necessarily care about the decisions made for Tournaments for the sake of Tournaments, it's just that what happens in Tournaments for legitimate reasons in the interest of fairness, completely infects the everyday Smash because of all the wannabes who will mimic the Competitive scene and take the rules and the mindset to a completely extreme level, ruining it for those who don't really care for it.
 

BananaNut

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
254
(first post with the flaming soccerballavatar woot)


At first, I used to be a casual and didn't really understand the wavedashing, L-canceling, SHFFLing in melee, until this happened.

One of my competitve freinds invited me over to a smash-fest over at his house with a couple of other smashers. Out of which 2 were competitive, 1 was semi competitive, and 2 (incuding me) Just played smash cassually. My competitive freind set items off, the whole jazz, and he told me to pick a stage. I picked Corneria, with the arwings zipping about firing those annoying lazers I thought it would be fun. My freind said it was banned, and I said,

"why?"

He picked the stage and showed my fox/falcos infinite combo near the tail end of the ship, and that's when I realized that competitive players don't ban stages just because they are "nooby", but because there is a reason behind it. Over the course of the evening he showed me what all the techs were, why the stages were banned, and I almost one against him once. We had great fun, and even put items on occasinally. It was pretty cool. The competitives arn't so bad, right?

Then I played the other competitive player. A jiggs main. Instantly, I found myself falling prey to the sleep before I even had time to react. Nothing was working for me, and the guy wouldn't even give me a chance to ask a question before I was 4 stocked. All I could really hear was the CLACKCLACK of that controller. It wasn't fun at all, I would have rather been playing smash by myself at home. I didn't hate him for it, but I kinda just whish he would tone it down a bit.

That's really when I realized how the rift between casuals and competitives can be nonexitant, or a ravien streaching the pacific ocean.

Now, I take smash a little more seriously, and play semi-competitively, I'll go all out on my freinds, but I tone it down a lot for my sister.
 

Heavenly Spoon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
76
Location
Belgium
NNID
HeavenlySpoon
A lot of casuals here seem to be complaining about the fact that some people force you to play itemless on neutral stages, or about how they get beaten because they don't invest the time and effort into the game like competitive players do. I know it's probably sucky for you when someone comes wavedashing into your casual tournament beating the living crap out of everyone. But I might as well try to turn this around. Imagine, you're in a real tournament, everyone here is competitive, can use ATs in battle and is perfectly aware of their existence. Then, some random kid from the neighborhood walks in and starts screaming that items shouldn't be banned, and then suddenly starts complaining because you're "cheating" (usually referring to the simplest stuff like l-canceling or ... yes, no kidding, even edge-guarding) and you're not playing the game as it was supposed to be played. That isn't fun for you or the kid, so why did the kid even bother?

Now, you're on your competitive boards, talking about how you can enhance your skills, then suddenly someone joins and starts making threads with titles like "ZOMG U SHUNDT BAN ITEMZ", this guy doesn't go to any tournaments, only plays with his friends and only occasionally meets a competitive wanna-be (Because I doubt any real competitive player would start grabbing your throat because you're doing FFAs with your baby brother and the kid next door). Why bother, who are you helping with this? Those who go to those tournaments enjoy going all out, not being limited by the stage, random occurrences or the fact that they shouldn't be allowed to use ATs. Who are you to tell them they shouldn't do this? Aren't you doing the same thing those "friends" of you are doing when they want to battle you on a neutral stage without items?

It all comes down to this: "Nobody should try to tell anyone how to play", if competitive players play without items, let them. Don't agree with them? Start your own tournament, allow all items and stages, ban ATs, 4 players per match, and start your own little group of casual players. Nobody's stopping you, and if they complain, just show them the nearest exit.
 

Superstarmario

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
254
Wait wait wait.

Hating people who use advanced techniques, and trolling every single AT or tourny related thread comes from a kid who regulated "tourney" rules around you?

Seriously?

That's what this is all about?

C'mon now. That's the dumbest crap I ever heard. Because someone wavedashed circles around you, you get all butthurt and troll smashboards? That's some lame ****. Is losing really that bad? Is anyone FORCING you to play with these people that *gasp* like to play with no items? That like to play their way?

That's rich.
Since it was never addressed, and more casual BAAAAWfest stories were posted.

Really, who forces you to play with these kids? And why dislike techniques that make some players distinctly better than you are? Is losing a game really that bad that you'll quit Smash all together over someone using AT's and being all around better than you? These stories all sound the fuggin same.

You should go to a tourney expecting someone to be better than you, and be prepared to accept defeat. Don't blame ATs or competitive players. Either step up your game, or just don't go to tourneys if you go through this much backlash from losing.

Comeptitive Smash rule 1: No Johns.
 

blerb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
365
Location
Nowhere, Ontario
I don't know why, it's just a big immature flame fest.

the only part I get pissed about is playing Final Destination all the time on Wi-Fi.
 

TiersAreReal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
146
Help me understand the casual mindset. I'm not applying this to all casuals, but the vocal portion that keeps posting here and on GFAQs. I think we can generally agree casuals aren't playing to win by Sirlin's mindset. They're not doing what it takes to win. But they complain when someone playing to win wins. And is this even an issue honestly? Just don't play the guy anymore if it's offline. If it's With Anyone online, free for all 4-player all items on 2 minute timed matches aren't anything to write home about so if you lose, so what? You're anonymous anyway. And with Friend Codes you can just play with people who play like you do. And if they enter a tournament and are not playing to win, they shouldn't expect to win and should know just what they're getting in to.

So, I mean, really... Every thing can just about be prevented by just not playing with people who play a way you don't like to play. I play the casuals in my area by playing by their rulesets for some matches if they'll play with mine for a match or two. But I don't go on message boards and bash their playstyles (and this goes for both sides for those who do it). Simply put, if I didn't want to play casually ever, I'd not play people who played casually and get some Friend Codes of people who play competitively.

Is there some issue I'm missing here?
 

IWontGetOverTheDam

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,798
Location
MN
I don't think the "casual" crowd has issue with the playstyle, per se. More that they have beef with those who deem themselves superior because of it, and tend to make carpet bomb-esque attacks.
That seems to be the reason I most come across.
 

Vijin

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
531
Location
Melbourne, Fl
Proving the TC's point.

EDIT: I know you didnt call anyone a scrub Motox, however what you described was the typical behavour of a scrub; telling people how they should play, and general whining about the competitive aspect of things, not all casual players do this. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just really wanted to clear it up.
I think scrubs and casuals are a totally separate category; I define a casual as someone who just plays casually; he honestly does not give 2 craps about winning or losing, doesn't care how ppl play, etc.

Scrubs are the people who actually whine about ppl playing with no items, set stages, etc.

And the funny excuse they always come up with is the "It's not meant to be in the game, so i don't do it."
That's just plain stupid. If you don't want to do it, fine. But don't complain about it when you lose to someone who does do it. Not using advance tactics because 'they weren't meant to be in the game' is like not picking up a 100 dollar bill off the floor because it shouldn't be there. It should be in somebodies wallet instead.
 

Reynbo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
45
Well this thread completely changed my mind on how i play.I'm one of those guys that doesn't go to tournaments but still uses every AT possible(the reason being is that i like to get as much as i can out of a game because i can usually only afford 3-5 games for my systems) and i usually don't hold back on my casual friends.I just never thought it wasn't fun for them i mean i don't mind losing why should they? i play by their rules most the time actually and still don't lose,but after reading this i will definitely tone down how i play by not using actual ats:) By the way though i never acted superior to them when i win i always say good match
 

Ionizer

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
49
Location
New Jersey, USA
NNID
Ionizer
Well this thread completely changed my mind on how i play.I'm one of those guys that doesn't go to tournaments but still uses every AT possible(the reason being is that i like to get as much as i can out of a game because i can usually only afford 3-5 games for my systems) and i usually don't hold back on my casual friends.I just never thought it wasn't fun for them i mean i don't mind losing why should they? i play by their rules most the time actually and still don't lose,but after reading this i will definitely tone down how i play by not using actual ats:) By the way though i never acted superior to them when i win i always say good match
If I could Rep you, I would, but alas, my account isn't able to yet...

Seriously, people like you actually give me that tiny sliver of faith in humanity that I have left.
 

6footninja

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
605
Location
Pits of Heaven
Why does anyone care? Obviously we all do, including myself. (to some extent) or we would skim through this thread without a care to post. Hmm....On topic, ill say this.

Casual players should be defined individually, not as groups. Though, adressing specifics would be much more of a pain than defining thousands of players as a single group. Same goes for competetive players as a whole. (yes im adressing them as a group). Simply put, everything we are going to say will most likely be viewed as "stupid" or "fail" by the other. Just like in real life, if you put people into one group, its like a social class. Making everyone want to disprove or outdo the other.

It goes further than that, but its summed up for you.
 

Thirdkoopa

Administrator
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
7,162
Location
Somewhere on Discord while working on something
Because If it was like melee then all the melee pro's would be the same, that would be redundant and everyone would end out bored, this would just be a melee 2.0 except with shiny new graphics!

Seriously, they'll probably have new advanced techs soon, I doubt things like WDing, SHFFLing, and all of the others were found on day one, so brawl's won't either, until further notice (Unless you already have it and I'm aware of it) Then be quiet, you critiques always go bashing a game, It was just overhyped.

On a non-rant note:I say they do so they can get something to complain about; since most people like to complain. p.p
 
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