Why button mashing to escape grabs?

[channel_KYX]

Does it really add to the game? Let's face it, there is no skill involved. All it does is wear down hardware.
To be honest, unless my stock is at risk, I just let it happen. No need to destroy my 70 buck joycon on it.

I wouldn't miss it a second if it got removed.


Edit for additional explanation:

My point is that it actually does not add to the gameplay experience. Let me explain:
Assuming we are at the highest level of play: Every participant will be at the maximum skill level. "Very hard to play" is not an argument anymore to excuse how good a character or technique is. We can assume that every player is capable of performing any action with the highest possible precision. There are no misinputs, no slipping off the controller, etc.
We are at the peak of skill: Any player will break out of a grab/bury/stun as fast as the game allows.
At this point, why have button mashing? There is no difference between mashing to get out as fast as possible and simply having a game mechanic that pops you out automatically asap. How does button mashing add in any way to the game experience?

As I see it, it's more an additional barrier for newbies to learn. They might not be as experienced in button mashing (as odd as that sounds) and as such are stuck in any incapability situation longer.

I do not want to have the button mashing removed without adjusting anything else. I just do not see the difference between (numbers here are placeholders):
KRool's dthrow burrow duration:
Without button mashing: 50 frames
With button mashing: 20 frames
Automatic release by game: 20 frames

Would that be a problem? I would like it that way. Instead of focusing on mashing, I could plan out my next step after release (inb4 "If you were good, you could plan while mashing").

 

[saiyan.]

Does it really add to the game? Let's face it, there is no skill involved. All it does is wear down hardware.
To be honest, unless my stock is at risk, I just let it happen. No need to destroy my 70 buck joycon on it.

I wouldn't miss it a second if it got removed.

Binding shield to your D-pad instead of taunt allows for 4 inputs with just 1 circle of your thumb. Plus I’m not worried about messing up my $20 GCC from eBay.

 

[Nutty Sponge]

It gets in the way of my main specifically tbh. If I mash the buttons I might accidentally hit B and Shulk will go to an art

 

[channel_KYX]

Binding shield to your D-pad instead of taunt allows for 4 inputs with just 1 circle of your thumb.

... which is just a workaround for the issue at hand.
I ask again: What does it add to the game? Skill?

 

[Orlando BCN]

You also mash to get out of stun as well. What a scrubby tactic; I mean why can’t you just wait it out? You’re gonna die anyway since you’re so vulnerable and it’s unfair to the opponent who deserved to stun you. No point in wearing down my newly bought Pro Controller on it.

 

[Zubyyyy]

This thread is giving me a headache.

 

[saiyan.]

... which is just a workaround for the issue at hand.
I ask again: What does it add to the game? Skill?

Why play games? Why are we pushing buttons on a controller in order to do so? It’s a mechanic in the game and theirs nothing wrong with it. Skill, no. Feeling like you have control over your character and an option to get out of a bury quicker than usual, yes.

 

[Gryphon827]

This thread is giving me a headache.

As much as I despise of Geno and his fanbase, I have to agree for once. Mashing is one of the most simple parts of Smash. You obviously want to get out of a grab before the opponent is able to get off a throw. This has been true in all Smash games, but it's especially true in Ultimate, since the vast majority of the cast is able to easily get a kill off a throw at any percent.

 

[channel_KYX]

You also mash to get out of stun as well. What a scrubby tactic; I mean why can’t you just wait it out? You’re gonna die anyway since you’re so vulnerable and it’s unfair to the opponent who deserved to stun you. No point in wearing down my newly bought Pro Controller on it.

Are you trying to be sarcastic? If so, it doesn't work, since I can't even make out what you're trying to say.
I can give you a counter argument/question though: Why can't I button mash out of Incinerator's side B?

This thread is giving me a headache.

And why is that?

Why play games? Why are we pushing buttons on a controller in order to do so? It’s a mechanic in the game and theirs nothing wrong with it. Skill, no. Feeling like you have control over your character and an option to get out of a bury quicker than usual, yes.

Reading the opponent or reacting fast is skill. Mindlessly pushing buttons as fast as possible is not.
I can accept your last point though, you want to feel in control (which is actually the first real argument in this thread).

 

[Orlando BCN]

Are you trying to be sarcastic? If so, it doesn't work, since I can't even make out what you're trying to say.

Same logic behind this thread: incoherent scrubspeak.

I can give you a counter argument/question though: Why can't I button mash out of Incinerator's side B?

Because command grabs are a thing?

 

[Zubyyyy]

As much as I despise of the Geno fanbase, I have to agree for once. Mashing is one of the most simple parts of Smash. You obviously want to get out of a grab before the opponent is able to get off a throw. This has been true in all Smash games, but it's especially true in Ultimate, since the vast majority of the cast is able to easily get a kill off a throw at any percent.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, I hope I don't reinforce Geno Fanbase stereotypes. Been posting on these forums for over ten years now, and have been rooting for Geno the entire time. I don't try to shove it down people's throats, though. No matter what character you are postering, being a one track hive mind is annoying AF.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm no scrub but I also find mashing to be pretty annoying. Damaging your controller is definitely a potential problem for people who play a lot. I was always scared to SDi on Smash 3DS especially. It also starts to really hurt my fingers if I have to do it a lot in one match.

It's not like it adds any depth to the game or anything. With DI you can have to consider the optimal direction to DI in so your actions actually have some thought behind them. Mashing when you're grabbed is often a wasted effort to since most people will just throw you before you escape.

Binding shield to your D-pad instead of taunt allows for 4 inputs with just 1 circle of your thumb. Plus I’m not worried about messing up my $20 GCC from eBay.

What about an $80 Pro Controller that you keep in pristine condition?

 

[channel_KYX]

Mashing is one of the most simple parts of Smash. You obviously want to get out of a grab before the opponent is able to get off a throw.

I do not deny that. I am just asking why the release is bound to a pointless mashing on the controller. There is a min and max duration of staying grabbed anyway, so why not just have a character auto-release after the min duration?

Because command grabs are a thing?

But you can mash out of Ridley's side B. Where is the consistency?

 

[Orlando BCN]

But you can mash out of Ridley's side B. Where is the consistency?

There is none. Smash is a party game. More news at 11.

 

[saiyan.]

I'm no scrub but I also find mashing to be pretty annoying. Damaging your controller is definitely a potential problem for people who play a lot. I was always scared to SDi on Smash 3DS especially. It also starts to really hurt my fingers if I have to do it a lot in one match.

It's not like it adds any depth to the game or anything. With DI you can have to consider the optimal direction to DI in so your actions actually have some thought behind them. Mashing when you're grabbed is often a wasted effort to since most people will just throw you before you escape.

What about an $80 Pro Controller that you keep in pristine condition?

I agree with what you are saying but this is nitpicking, the game has this as an option you can use if you want to just like you have the option to smack the taunt button and drink Lon Lon Milk if someone so pleases. I own 2 pro controller’s and why I main a GCC I 100% agree that $100 for a controller is rediculous and I personally think if you are serious about competitive smash and you put a lot of hours into this game it isn’t worth using the pro IMO.

 

[channel_KYX]

Smash is a party game.

Great argument, please go to the "should we have star kos, screen kos or blast kos" threads. Tell them that, they sure will be satisfied.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I agree with what you are saying but this is nitpicking, the game has this as an option you can use if you want to just like you have the option to smack the taunt button and drink Lon Lon Milk if someone so pleases. I own 2 pro controller’s and why I main a GCC I 100% agree that $100 for a controller is rediculous and I personally think if you are serious about competitive smash and you put a lot of hours into this game it isn’t worth using the pro IMO.

The difference is that with few exceptions, taunting doesn't grant you any ingame advantage while mashing does.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I see the merit in mashing as a concept but I think it's poorly implemented, needing too much input and a custom controller set-up for maximum efficiency.

Way I see it, less button press should give similar results but with an upper cap on how much you can reduce it. That way you get the feeling of gaining back control without making all stun type moves useless.

 

[Arrei]

I'm inclined to agree less for controller durability and more for the fact that mashing encourages misinputs in a game genre that demands precise inputs, and it feels as though they didn't even consider that fact when making moves that require the victim to mash. Under the game's default control scheme, with the buttons where they are and Tap Jump on, it's nearly impossible to mash out of special states without inputting something you didn't want to the moment you escape. Mashing buttons while you fall off the stage after getting hit by Egg Lay or PK Freeze is a sure way to accidentally throw out an aerial or special as you emerge which is liable to cost you the stock, but spinning the control stick is also liable to burn your air jump before you intended because of Tap Jump.

 

[channel_KYX]

I'm inclined to agree less for controller durability and more for the fact that mashing encourages misinputs in a game genre that demands precise inputs, and it feels as though they didn't even consider that fact when making moves that require the victim to mash. Under the game's default control scheme, with the buttons where they are and Tap Jump on, it's nearly impossible to mash out of special states without inputting something you didn't want to the moment you escape. Mashing buttons while you fall off the stage after getting hit by Egg Lay or PK Freeze is a sure way to accidentally throw out an aerial or special as you emerge which is liable to cost you the stock, but spinning the control stick is also liable to burn your air jump before you intended because of Tap Jump.

Good point. I agree, smash was born a party game, but even during the friendliest of friendlies, this can cause frustration.

 

[Team Orchid]

I'm inclined to agree less for controller durability and more for the fact that mashing encourages misinputs in a game genre that demands precise inputs, and it feels as though they didn't even consider that fact when making moves that require the victim to mash. Under the game's default control scheme, with the buttons where they are and Tap Jump on, it's nearly impossible to mash out of special states without inputting something you didn't want to the moment you escape. Mashing buttons while you fall off the stage after getting hit by Egg Lay or PK Freeze is a sure way to accidentally throw out an aerial or special as you emerge which is liable to cost you the stock, but spinning the control stick is also liable to burn your air jump before you intended because of Tap Jump.

To add to this point, this can also get you to do something like, let's say for example falcon punch out of getting roller buried. A laggy move at the wrong time might not always be the death of you, but it's a great way to just eat a combo for lunch and get some serious indigestion.

 

[RepStar]

Stupid topic. You couldve bragged about something better for $70 than a controller.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

It would be chill if taunts themselves counted towards mashing, or if control stick mashing was *equally* as effective as button mashing, but neither of those are true. Most unfortunate that the only truly effective mashing happens by altering your control scheme or your hand placement. It's "worth it" in several scenarios, but they added grab teching in this game anyways, so like.....it wouldn't kill them to make mashing slightly easier by changing which inputs count towards it.

 

[Gryphon827]

Coming back to this thread, I still don't understand how people think that mashing isn't something that's absolutely necessary to play competitively. Mashing out of a grab/bury/stun is vital to survivability. Take K.Rool's down throw, for example. If you don't mash out of the buries, he can chaingrab you at any percent, but if you do mash, the chaingrab only works if you're at a high enough percent to where he could just kill you anyways.

 

[saiyan.]

Coming back to this thread, I still don't understand how people think that mashing isn't something that's absolutely necessary to play competitively. Mashing out of a grab/bury/stun is vital to survivability. Take K.Rool's down throw, for example. If you don't mash out of the buries, he can chaingrab you at any percent, but if you do mash, the chaingrab only works if you're at a high enough percent to where he could just kill you anyways.

Oh it’s absolutely required, OP is stating that it requires no skill to perform and causes unnecessary wear to hardware (controllers). I enjoy the mechanic, makes the gameplay more satisfying and challenging but I totally also understand why somebody wouldn’t like it. It’s totally necessary and viable though. Not many other games in the FGC have the mechanic, most games consist of predicting the grab and avoiding the command grab my Nair or dashing back. Once you get grabbed like in SFV theirs nothing you can really do, especially if your against Birdie. It’s a nice change.

 

[Sean²]

Binding shield to your D-pad instead of taunt allows for 4 inputs with just 1 circle of your thumb. Plus I’m not worried about messing up my $20 GCC from eBay.

You can get out much faster by mashing face/shoulder buttons and spinning the control stick at the same time. I don't think the d-pad gimmick is as effective in this game as some people say, considering you have to abandon something else to reach the dpad. It didn't do a thing to help me get out of grabs faster. I tried it for about a month and went back to regular face/shoulder/control stick mashing.

 

[channel_KYX]

Oh it’s absolutely required, OP is stating that it requires no skill to perform and causes unnecessary wear to hardware (controllers). I enjoy the mechanic, makes the gameplay more satisfying and challenging but I totally also understand why somebody wouldn’t like it. It’s totally necessary and viable though.

You did not understand me 100 %. Sure, the "wearing the hardware" is an annoying part, but not actually my major complaint (I admit, I could have worded it better in my OP).
My point is that it actually does not add to the gameplay experience. Let me explain:
Assuming we are at the highest level of play: Every participant will be at the maximum skill level. "Very hard to play" is not an argument anymore to excuse how good a character or technique is. We can assume that every player is capable of performing any action with the highest possible precision. There are no misinputs, no slipping off the controller, etc.
We are at the peak of skill: Any player will break out of a grab/bury/stun as fast as the game allows.
At this point, why have button mashing? There is no difference between mashing to get out as fast as possible and simply having a game mechanic that pops you out automatically asap. How does button mashing add in any way to the game experience?

As I see it, it's more an additional barrier for newbies to learn. They might not be as experienced in button mashing (as odd as that sounds) and as such are stuck in any incapability situation longer.

Coming back to this thread, I still don't understand how people think that mashing isn't something that's absolutely necessary to play competitively. Mashing out of a grab/bury/stun is vital to survivability. Take K.Rool's down throw, for example. If you don't mash out of the buries, he can chaingrab you at any percent, but if you do mash, the chaingrab only works if you're at a high enough percent to where he could just kill you anyways.

I do not want to have the button mashing removed without adjusting anything else. I just do not see the difference between (numbers here are placeholders):
KRool's dthrow burrow duration:
Without button mashing: 50 frames
With button mashing: 20 frames
Automatic release by game: 20 frames

Would that be a problem? I would like it that way. Instead of focusing on mashing, I could plan out my next step after release (inb4 "If you were good, you could plan while mashing").

You can get out much faster by mashing face/shoulder buttons and spinning the control stick at the same time. I don't think the d-pad gimmick is as effective in this game as some people say, considering you have to abandon something else to reach the dpad. It didn't do a thing to help me get out of grabs faster. I tried it for about a month and went back to regular face/shoulder/control stick mashing.

To my understanding, it is done to avoid accidental DI while rotating the joystick.

 

[Sean²]

To my understanding, it is done to avoid accidental DI while rotating the joystick.

Except it really doesn't work that well, especially for getting out of stuff like roller where you're gonna eat a lot of damage if you don't do it fast enough.

 

[saiyan.]

I see what you are saying and I agree that it’s kind of pointless to have the mechanic in the first place but it could be worse I suppose.

 

[channel_KYX]

I see what you are saying and I agree that it’s kind of pointless to have the mechanic in the first place but it could be worse I suppose.

It definitely could be. It's cherrypicking, yes, but with all the convenience improvements I am honestly surprised they didn't change anything here.

 

[Dr. Edgeworth]

Being able to mash well is a skill. Knowing when to mash stick or mash buttons is a skill. It rewards you for staying active during frames that would normally be downtime. It creates a new dynamic, and i'd rather keep the mechanic than take away the reward for staying active.

My point is that it actually does not add to the gameplay experience. Let me explain:
Assuming we are at the highest level of play: Every participant will be at the maximum skill level. "Very hard to play" is not an argument anymore to excuse how good a character or technique is. We can assume that every player is capable of performing any action with the highest possible precision. There are no misinputs, no slipping off the controller, etc.
We are at the peak of skill: Any player will break out of a grab/bury/stun as fast as the game allows.
At this point, why have button mashing? There is no difference between mashing to get out as fast as possible and simply having a game mechanic that pops you out automatically asap. How does button mashing add in any way to the game experience?

You can use this exact argument for justifying removal of any mechanical barrier. Why do we have a short hop bind? Because at the top level of play, nobody ****s up short hops anyways, so just put in the bind. Why do we have a grab button for pressing R+A at the same time? Because at the top level of play, nobody would **** it up anyways, so just put it in a bind. Now, neither of these things are exact equivilances to removing mashing, and I'm not opposed to the short hop or grab binds, but you can use this argument for removing any sort of mechanical barrier. The 20XX top level where nobody ever ****s up anything is not real, and I think we should keep mashing because it lets you **** up.

As I see it, it's more an additional barrier for newbies to learn. They might not be as experienced in button mashing (as odd as that sounds) and as such are stuck in any incapability situation longer.

Just let the kids **** up. Let them make the same minute mistakes that ESAM or Zackray might make, because even as small as it might be, part of the difference between me, you, and Zackray is our ability to mash consistently and correctly.

Also I like pressing buttons instead of doing nothing. I'd rather be mashing for 5 seconds than be doing nothing for 5 seconds.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Being able to mash well is a skill. Knowing when to mash stick or mash buttons is a skill. It rewards you for staying active during frames that would normally be downtime. It creates a new dynamic, and i'd rather keep the mechanic than take away the reward for staying active.

You can use this exact argument for justifying removal of any mechanical barrier. Why do we have a short hop bind? Because at the top level of play, nobody ****s up short hops anyways, so just put in the bind. Why do we have a grab button for pressing R+A at the same time? Because at the top level of play, nobody would **** it up anyways, so just put it in a bind. Now, neither of these things are exact equivilances to removing mashing, and I'm not opposed to the short hop or grab binds, but you can use this argument for removing any sort of mechanical barrier. The 20XX top level where nobody ever ****s up anything is not real, and I think we should keep mashing because it lets you **** up.

Just let the kids **** up. Let them make the same minute mistakes that ESAM or Zackray might make, because even as small as it might be, part of the difference between me, you, and Zackray is our ability to mash consistently and correctly.

Also I like pressing buttons instead of doing nothing. I'd rather be mashing for 5 seconds than be doing nothing for 5 seconds.

But we have grab teching now, like most fighting games have. The window for it is a little too small, but it's there, and it's worked for other fighting games for decades.