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Why are Sakurai's views on competitive Smash so mis-represented?

TheMisterManGuy

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Super Smash Bros. has blossomed one of the biggest tournament scenes in the Fighting game community. Series creator Masahiro Sakurai has been accused in the past of supposedly despising the competitive scene, and doing everything in his power to take it away from them. Because he's some evil psychopath who hates deep games. Yet, that could not be farther from the truth.

Far too often, the Smash community lies, twists, and distorts Sakurai's actual statements and what he means when he says them.

For example, when he was quoted saying Competitive Smash has no future, many people mistook that to mean he thinks Smash simply being played at tournaments is not a future. What he actually meant by that was that if the player only plays Smash Bros. as if it were a competitive fighter, it has no future, because he feels there's so much more to Smash Bros. than its competitive aspects. The game was designed to be played with such a large degree of flexibility, that if most players stick to only one or two ways to play, then there's not much fun to be had. His point is that play it competitively if you want, the game allows for that. But remember that there's a lot more fun to be had with the game than just 1v1, no items, stock only. This is the reason for Ultimate's new rule saving feature. It's to allow the player to have a wide variety of customized modes and play-styles on hand for any situation.

Another example is when he's gone on record to say that he felt Melee was too hardcore. The Melee defense force then begins to swoop in and say that "But casuals enjoyed it too". Yes casuals did enjoy Melee. That's not what Sakurai's saying here though. Sakurai's main point is that Melee was too hard to become good at. It required a lot of skill and button inputs more so than other entries in the series, to even be remotely competent at. Sakurai dislikes making games with overly large skill gaps where a beginner is severely punished for not spending enough time learning all these techniques. He wants Smash to be a game where anybody can pick it up and learn on a deeper level with ease. That way, even if the more experienced player wins, the newbie at least knows what they were doing. There's also a misconception that he hates Melee because of this. He doesn't, he enjoys Melee, and has even called it "Exhilarating and Fun". He just feels it took the hidden depth aspect of Smash a bit too far. Again, Ultimate goes the opposite route by making the game tempo faster, while simplifying the inputs for more advanced techniques, making them easy to learn. The depth should come from knowing when and how to use them effectively, not spending days trying to master doing them at all.

Point is, Sakurai has nothing against competitive Smash. In fact many of the changes made to Smash 4 and Ultimate were made with the competitive scene in mind. He simply feels that Smash shouldn't be defined by its competitive aspect, nor should the competitive aspect have a large barrier to entry, above all else, Sakurai's main goal is to make the game fun, not competitive. It's easy to forget, but Smash Bros. is still a Party game first, eSport second, not vice versa.
 

FieryRebirth

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Brawl had probably made the competitive community lose faith in Sakurai while still being hyped, still desiring their true, official "Melee HD". Still, Brawl was a huge blow to their egos: the slower gameplay, the bugged mechanics fixed, "tripping", oh and that Sakurai himself being upset when he announced he wouldn't be able to patch the game - so we got "Meta Knight Bros."

It doesn't really matter though, Sakurai is very unlikely to satisfy the competitive community until they get that "Melee HD" from him on a silver platter.
 
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TheMisterManGuy

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Brawl had probably made the competitive community lose faith in Sakurai while still being hyped, still desiring their true, official "Melee HD". Still, Brawl was a huge blow to their egos: the slower gameplay, the bugged mechanics fixed, "tripping", oh and that Sakurai himself being upset when he announced he wouldn't be able to patch the game - so we got "Meta Knight Bros."

It doesn't really matter though, Sakurai is very unlikely to satisfy the competitive community until they get that "Melee HD" from him on a silver platter.
As much as I hate the "let Melee go" sentiment from Smash 4 players. It does have some truth to it. Sakurai's not interested in making Melee 2. Smash doesn't need to be a Melee 2 to be a good competitive fighter. The Smash community needs to accept that every Smash game can have its own distinct flavor. If you want a Melee 2, then play a game that's like Melee 2 spiritually. Sakurai should borrow some concepts from Melee as the game really did have good ideas, but he shouldn't concern himself with making a Melee 2.
 

Flowen231

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I'm surprised my melee homies haven't gotten in here talking about how melee is the only real competitive smash game lol.

I've been hardcore with the series since the start, met a lot of people, been lots of places. The one constant I know is that smash will always evolve with each iteration. I mean, sure, I dropped brawl and went back to melee after a while but I really don't think melee is the only thing worth looking forward to. As much as I feel for my brothers in the melee scene I can't help but think that alot of their disappointment stems from their desire to see something that history has told us is probably never going to happen again.

I mean ****, "let melee go" shouldn't even be a thing, it should be more like "don't get your hopes up for something that isn't gonna happen unless it's inde or fan made". But hey, I don't really have a right to tell people what to think or want, but I can enjoy and support something even if they don't.

You are 100% right though, the issue people take with melee isn't that its a hard game to master, its just the fact that you have to be so hardcore just to be viable at a base competitive level. It's just like that saying tekken players have; If you want to get good at tekken, you better quit your job, dump your girlfriend, and stay in your room for at least 2 years ;p. Similar thing when it comes to melee.
 
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Izanagi97

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Speaking of how hardcore Melee is, I've heard of people suffering hand injuries from playing spacies due to their techniques.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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So OP has special insight into what Sakurai means when he speaks, and Sakurai's actions don't reflect his views at all. Got it.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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So OP has special insight into what Sakurai means when he speaks, and Sakurai's actions don't reflect his views at all. Got it.
Of course, actions reflect his words. Smash 4 and Ultimate made changes to benefit the competitive scene. He's not saying the game shouldn't be played competitively. He's saying the game shouldn't just be defined by it's competitive aspects as that's not really the main way to play the game. He also doesn't believe in taking input from just the competitive scene as he want newcomers to play it too.
 

Oddball

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Basically to me, it feels like people are getting upset because he won't cater to their particular way of playing the game, when it wasn't a way he had intended it to be played anyway. Sure he throws the tournmanet crowd some bones here and there, but Smash wasn't really designed for tournamnets and lot of the tournaments players don't seem to like that.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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Basically to me, it feels like people are getting upset because he won't cater to their particular way of playing the game, when it wasn't a way he had intended it to be played anyway. Sure he throws the tournmanet crowd some bones here and there, but Smash wasn't really designed for tournamnets and lot of the tournaments players don't seem to like that.
I don't think it's that he didn't want Smash to be competitive. Rather, he doesn't want Smash to be defined as a competitive fighter, because that's not really what it is. Competitive play is really only a small fraction of the Smash experience. There's so many more ways to play the game, and he doesn't what Smash to be defined by a small niche.
 

Thinkaman

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Sakurai Finally Caves, Allows Players to Play Super Smash Bros. Without Items

Masahiro Sakurai has spent his entire career with one mission: To destroy competitive Smash Bros.

But that mission might be finally over.

In yesterday's Nintendo Direct, a shocking reveal stunned the community: For the first time, Super Smash Bros. will allow players to turn off items.

"Fine. I give up. I hope you're happy." a visibly irate Sakurai said, in the presentation.

"This is sick." said Joseph 'Mang0' Marquez. "Now if we could just have stages without hazards, like Master Hand's place? Then it'd be perfect."

When reached for comment on if Smash's development would include additional competitive facets such as balance patches or a teams mode, Sakurai replied via translator:

"Hell no. And Smash Balls will never be turned off, either. Play the game as it was meant to be played, assholes."
 
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I think Mango said it really well when he explained why people didn’t want another Melee.

What I think when I hear “I want another Melee” is that the players want something that does what Melee does; the game flows really well, your ability to play is only limited by your imagination, it’s still going strong, and it’s enjoyed by many players. It’s not the tech from Melee, but how everything works together.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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Sakurai Finally Caves, Allows Players to Play Super Smash Bros. Without Items

Masahiro Sakurai has spent his entire career with one mission: To destroy competitive Smash Bros.

But that mission might be finally over.

In yesterday's Nintendo Direct, a shocking reveal stunned the community: For the first time, Super Smash Bros. will allow players to turn off items.

"Fine. I give up. I hope you're happy." a visibly irate Sakurai said, in the presentation.

"This is sick." said Joseph 'Mang0' Marquez. "Now if we could just have stages without hazards, like Master Hand's place? Then it'd be perfect."

When reached for comment on if Smash's development would include additional competitive facets such as balance patches or a teams mode, Sakurai replied via translator:

"Hell no. And Smash Balls will never be turned off, either. Play the game as it was meant to be played, ********."
Lol!

I think Mango said it really well when he explained why people didn’t want another Melee.

What I think when I hear “I want another Melee” is that the players want something that does what Melee does; the game flows really well, your ability to play is only limited by your imagination, it’s still going strong, and it’s enjoyed by many players. It’s not the tech from Melee, but how everything works together.
That's fine. But it's important to remember that not every Smash needs to be like Melee to be a good competitive game. Smash 4 survived alongside Melee just fine, and Ultimate will do the same.
 

Spak

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I think it's a combination of how slow Brawl/Sm4sh were in comparison to Melee, in addition to adding things like tripping and (more recently) removing meteor cancelling to intentionally add punishment for doing nothing wrong (making the game a pain competitively) and intentionally lowering the skill cap respectively. A grassroots scene had grown up around a game that everyone loved because of the fast and technical gameplay, but then when Brawl came out people realized how much slower and less technical the game actually was. Nintendo (and by extension Sakurai) have never supported the competitive scene in the past like other companies do (with the Capcom Cup, companies sponsoring tournaments, etc.), and then they tried to choke out the PM competitive scene by banning the game from being streamed on Twitch for streamers with Subscriber buttons. It always seemed (at least to the Melee scene) like Sakurai tried to stomp us down at every possible stop along the way, but we worked our way to the top in order to become a relevant game. We might be misrepresenting Sakurai's opinions now, but there was a time when it seemed like he was doing his best to kill everything we love and stand for lol.
 

Yangguizi

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I think that the reason people take the thing Sakurai says the way they do is because his actions have already spoken for him. You can say what you want about his supposed intentions or philosophy as a game designer but some of decisions he’s made have sent a message. Brawl specifically features several design decisions that do almost nothing but stunt the game competitively. Tripping is actually just bad game design. Casual players don’t enjoy it any more than competative players do, and it goes against common sense in game design to include random indescriminant punishment in your game. There are a few other things as well but the point is that brawl was designed with the intent of putting off the competative community and that’s left a sour taste in people’s mouths. And it should.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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I think it's a combination of how slow Brawl/Sm4sh were in comparison to Melee, in addition to adding things like tripping and (more recently) removing meteor cancelling to intentionally add punishment for doing nothing wrong (making the game a pain competitively) and intentionally lowering the skill cap respectively. A grassroots scene had grown up around a game that everyone loved because of the fast and technical gameplay, but then when Brawl came out people realized how much slower and less technical the game actually was. Nintendo (and by extension Sakurai) have never supported the competitive scene in the past like other companies do (with the Capcom Cup, companies sponsoring tournaments, etc.), and then they tried to choke out the PM competitive scene by banning the game from being streamed on Twitch for streamers with Subscriber buttons. It always seemed (at least to the Melee scene) like Sakurai tried to stomp us down at every possible stop along the way, but we worked our way to the top in order to become a relevant game. We might be misrepresenting Sakurai's opinions now, but there was a time when it seemed like he was doing his best to kill everything we love and stand for lol.
Brawl was simply a misguided attempt at trying to lower the skill gap, as Sakurai felt that the game's "everyone gets a trophy" focus would fit better with the Wii's audience. Even then, he admitted that wasn't really the right way to go about it either. Smash 4 was deliberately designed to be as competitive friendly as possible by re-tweaking Brawl's engine to be slightly faster and much less luck based than Brawl. Smash 4 wasn't perfect, but it was a good competitive game that co-existed with Melee. It's hard for Melee fans to accept, but there are people who like slower paced fighters at tournaments. Also, Nintendo never choked out Project M, tournaments pulled it voluntarily as Nintendo was now sponsoring them.

I think that the reason people take the thing Sakurai says the way they do is because his actions have already spoken for him. You can say what you want about his supposed intentions or philosophy as a game designer but some of decisions he’s made have sent a message. Brawl specifically features several design decisions that do almost nothing but stunt the game competitively. Tripping is actually just bad game design. Casual players don’t enjoy it any more than competative players do, and it goes against common sense in game design to include random indescriminant punishment in your game. There are a few other things as well but the point is that brawl was designed with the intent of putting off the competative community and that’s left a sour taste in people’s mouths. And it should.
Brawl is again, a poor example as it was designed for a completely different audience, not because Sakurai wanted to spite the competitive scene. Plus, alot of Brawl's changes were because the game needed to be played with the Wii Remote. Brawl had a lot of flaws, but it was never because Sakurai hated the competitive scene, it was because of a misguided attempt to make something that the Wii audience may like.
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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Melee has over 190K views. More then SF V at it peak ignoring Ninja host during Evo 2018. Melee a 17 yr old game is able to beat out dedicated fighters such as Tekken 7. The reason why people have such opinions of him is because Brawl was a complete 180 of Smash Bros along with him intentionally adding Tripping to try to kill the competitive game. Sakurai also seemed to have a disconnect to what Melee players actually want. He seems to be stuck in the mindset that Melee players want combos that requires a lot of inputs like in traditional fighters and even gone on record stating they shouldn't play Smash but other Fighters completely missing the reason they play Smash is because they love Smash and its style. Melee players just want better movement in the newer Smash and more hitstun so the game isn't so neutral heavy. I am not a Melee player but I instantly recognized why Brawl was awful and the flaws in Smash 4 (Rage, rolling, air dodging, shielding, lack of movement options, lack of options of a dash). Ultimate addresses a ton of issues I had with Smash 4 (I quit playing). I think Sakurai is learning that casuals are going to suck and be beaten by any seasoned Smasher regardless of the game. Sakurai seems to be allergic to Melee and even outright stated he regret making Melee for what it is. Those type of comments hurts melee players even if Sakurai truly believes it. Its not surprising that players are coming out being critical of Smash 4 considering Ultimate addresses a lot of issues Smash Games had since Melee. Not to say they don't appreciate him, they just prefer Melee. Can't force people play something they don't like. Sakurai is bothered by Melee players sticking to Melee though.
 
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TheMisterManGuy

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Melee has over 190K views. More then SF V at it peak ignoring Ninja host during Evo 2018. Melee a 17 yr old game is able to beat out dedicated fighters such as Tekken 7. The reason why people have such opinions of him is because Brawl was a complete 180 of Smash Bros along with him intentionally adding Tripping to try to kill the competitive game. Sakurai also seemed to have a disconnect to what Melee players actually want. He seems to be stuck in the mindset that Melee players want combos that requires a lot of inputs like in traditional fighters and even gone on record stating they shouldn't play Smash but other Fighters completely missing the reason they play Smash is because they love Smash and its style. Melee players just want better movement in the newer Smash and more hitstun so the game isn't so neutral heavy. I am not a Melee player but I instantly recognized why Brawl was awful and the flaws in Smash 4 (Rage, rolling, air dodging, shielding, lack of movement options, lack of options of a dash). Ultimate addresses a ton of issues I had with Smash 4 (I quit playing). I think Sakurai is learning that casuals are going to suck and be beaten by any seasoned Smasher regardless of the game. Sakurai seems to be allergic to Melee and even outright stated he regret making Melee for what it is. Those type of comments hurts melee players even if Sakurai truly believes it. Its not surprising that players are coming out being critical of Smash 4 considering Ultimate addresses a lot of issues Smash Games had since Melee. Not to say they don't appreciate him, they just prefer Melee. Can't force people play something they don't like. Sakurai is bothered by Melee players sticking to Melee though.
Thing is, Not everybody wants a Smash game to be like Melee for competitive play. There are plenty of players who like or even prefer Smash 4's slower, more methodical netual heavy game. While Smash 4 does have legitimate, universally agreed upon problems (mostly regarding defensive options being a bit too strong). But it's not a bad competitive game by any means, and your correct by Ultimate fixing those problems.

Ultimate addresses a ton of issues I had with Smash 4 (I quit playing). I think Sakurai is learning that casuals are going to suck and be beaten by any seasoned Smasher regardless of the game.
He's always known this. Sakurai's goal with Smash isn't so that everyone wins. It's so that even if the newcomer sucks compared to the more experienced player, they at least felt like they were playing a game and having fun. A loss in Smash 4 or Ultimate feels like a fair loss. You sucked yeah, but you at least had fun and felt like you knew what you were doing. A loss to a more experienced player in Melee on the other hand, makes you feel like never touching the game again. Sakurai's goal is to make Smash a game that is above all else, fun even when you loose. He doesn't like making games with overly large skill gaps with daunting barriers to entry. Notice how in Ultiamte is streamlining many advanced techniques making them far more intuitive and simple to execute. It gives the player options, while still involving as few inputs as possible.
 

Spak

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Brawl was simply a misguided attempt at trying to lower the skill gap, as Sakurai felt that the game's "everyone gets a trophy" focus would fit better with the Wii's audience. Even then, he admitted that wasn't really the right way to go about it either. Smash 4 was deliberately designed to be as competitive friendly as possible by re-tweaking Brawl's engine to be slightly faster and much less luck based than Brawl. Smash 4 wasn't perfect, but it was a good competitive game that co-existed with Melee. It's hard for Melee fans to accept, but there are people who like slower paced fighters at tournaments.
Fair enough, I can accept that Brawl was a misread of the community (and it may have even been a good move for the general audience since Brawl is the favorite of quite a few people I know who didn't start on 64 or Melee), but then there are small things like the Sm4sh combination of Vectoring/DI killing you earlier if you use Melee DI that just makes it feel like Sakurai is trying to punish Melee players.
Also, Nintendo never choked out Project M, tournaments pulled it voluntarily as Nintendo was now sponsoring them.
No, PM tournaments stopped being streamed because Nintendo prevented them from getting any income via subscriber buttons. Furthermore, after talking to a lawyer, the PMDT stopped development on PM in fear of legal action from Nintendo. If you go back further, you can see that Nintendo even tried to stop Melee from being at EVO 2013, but Mr. Wizard settled for just not streaming the event. Nintendo's more supportive of the competitive scene now, but the community's wary of them because of their past actions.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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Wasn't the PMDT quitting because they wanted to use what they learned to make Icons and thus feared reprisal for borrowing too much from Brawl? So if anything PMDT killed PM just as much as Nintendo did.
 

link2702

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Everytime i hear someone rant about “bugged” mechanics in melee, I wonder if they even know what a bug or glitch in a video game actually is. 9 Times out of 10 people are labeling intended mechanics as “glitches” or “bugs”.

The irony here is they’ll turn around and praise brawl, a game far more buggy
 
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Gameboi834

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Counterpoint: I don't think you understand the Smash comp. scene. Half the top players in Smash 4, probably much more, came from playing Brawl. Look at the players in top 10 at Brawl's peak, then look at Smash 4 rankings a couple seasons ago. You'll see Nairo, Zero, Anti, Ally, Dabuz, Mr. R, Esam, Vinnie, Nakat, Salem...So many Brawl players were ported to Smash 4. And you're conflating them with Melee-exclusive players.

Also, taking a shot for "it needs to be fun, not competitive", implying that competitive is not the source of fun for a lot of players.
 

Yangguizi

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Brawl was simply a misguided attempt at trying to lower the skill gap, as Sakurai felt that the game's "everyone gets a trophy" focus would fit better with the Wii's audience. Even then, he admitted that wasn't really the right way to go about it either. Smash 4 was deliberately designed to be as competitive friendly as possible by re-tweaking Brawl's engine to be slightly faster and much less luck based than Brawl. Smash 4 wasn't perfect, but it was a good competitive game that co-existed with Melee. It's hard for Melee fans to accept, but there are people who like slower paced fighters at tournaments. Also, Nintendo never choked out Project M, tournaments pulled it voluntarily as Nintendo was now sponsoring them.



Brawl is again, a poor example as it was designed for a completely different audience, not because Sakurai wanted to spite the competitive scene. Plus, alot of Brawl's changes were because the game needed to be played with the Wii Remote. Brawl had a lot of flaws, but it was never because Sakurai hated the competitive scene, it was because of a misguided attempt to make something that the Wii audience may like.
Not all of the changes in brawl can be justified by saying that it was an attempt to appeal to a casual audience. Melee was actually extremely successful with the casual audience so it would reason that they didn’t NEED to change anything. I’m not here to argue that point though. It’s my opinion that slowing the game down does make it generally more approachable. My beef is with things like tripping and acting out of hit stun. These are changes that do not benefit casual play. And in the case of trippping, just go against decent game design. “Indiscriminate punishment” that’s all it is and it’s not fun for competition or casual play.
 

Koopaul

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What I think when I hear “I want another Melee” is that the players want something that does what Melee does; the game flows really well, your ability to play is only limited by your imagination
I disagree. Only limited by your imagination? If that were true then the game would allow for tons and tons of viable gameplay styles and viable characters. But from what I've seen, Melee players go for the same tried and true techniques and playstyles.

Maybe I just don't know any better, but adding more characters that are even ever so slightly more viable than the pool that Melee had seems more like you can let your imagination be the master.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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My beef is with things like tripping and acting out of hit stun. These are changes that do not benefit casual play. And in the case of trippping, just go against decent game design. “Indiscriminate punishment” that’s all it is and it’s not fun for competition or casual play.
That's why I said it was a misguided attempt. Brawl in many ways, was a product of the times. From its "real is brown" aesthetic, to it's focus on content over substance, to confusing making the game more approachable with dumbing it down. It's all the hallmarks of everything wrong with late-2000s game design. But that was 2008, this is 2018, developers including Sakurai himself are much more aware that you can streamline the gameplay so that newcomers have an easier time mastering without sacrificing the actual depth and challenge.

Counterpoint: I don't think you understand the Smash comp. scene. Half the top players in Smash 4, probably much more, came from playing Brawl. Look at the players in top 10 at Brawl's peak, then look at Smash 4 rankings a couple seasons ago. You'll see Nairo, Zero, Anti, Ally, Dabuz, Mr. R, Esam, Vinnie, Nakat, Salem...So many Brawl players were ported to Smash 4. And you're conflating them with Melee-exclusive players.
Brawl players moved on because Smash 4 was simply a better competitive game in just about every way. The goal wasn't to make something for Melee fans. It was to make something that people could play on a serious level if they wanted to. Ultimate is the actual attempt at trying to make something Melee and Smash 4 players can enjoy.

Also, taking a shot for "it needs to be fun, not competitive", implying that competitive is not the source of fun for a lot of players.
What that means is that even when playing casually or competitively, the game needs to be fun to play for everyone, regardless of whether they win or loose. The feeling should be "well I sucked, but I at least had fun". A loss should feel satisfying, and make you want to improve your skills. Game-play should be as faithful as possible across rule-sets, and learning higher level techniques should be as simple and intuitive as possible. In those regards, Melee failed as it had a large barrier to entry for competitive play, and high level Melee to a casual gamer looks and feels completely alien to standard competitive play, and a loss feels devistating as you didn't feel like you had a fair chance. Melee simply had too steep of a learning curve for its more advanced side, and that's what Sakurai wants to avoid doing.
 
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I disagree. Only limited by your imagination? If that were true then the game would allow for tons and tons of viable gameplay styles and viable characters. But from what I've seen, Melee players go for the same tried and true techniques and playstyles.

Maybe I just don't know any better, but adding more characters that are even ever so slightly more viable than the pool that Melee had seems more like you can let your imagination be the master.
There are a variety of styles, some more optimal than others, but it exists. What are you not seeing?

I’ve seen the meta game evolve over the years with players using reverse Fair with Marth, Shine Bair, now Shine grab, consistent shield dropping, characters like Jigglypuff rising to to A tier, unwinnable match ups like Jiggs vs Marth and Peach vs Marth being possible, parrying with Yoshi, modified thunders combo.

But I’m not going to argue, can you elaborate on what you’ve seen in detail? Because when I see people play Melee I can usually tell who’s playing right off the bat. Granted you can do so in most fighting games, but the technical aspects of the game make it very distinct. If you see Westballz play Falco you know it’s him lol
 

Spak

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And I'd like to add that even within viable characters, you get very different playstyles. For instance, you have the more mechanical Falcons like Gravy, Ghatu, and Wizzy (so basically the 20GX dudes) versus the more swaggy Falcons like S2J, Lord, and n0ne. Also, most people complain about how unbalanced Melee is, but it's held up SUPER well over the test of time. Having 6 characters consistently winning nationals, 8-12 winning regionals, and oddball mains here and there that can still demolish people at notable tourneys (like Amsa's Yoshi, Germ's Link, Qerb's G&W, etc.) is super impressive for a game that's almost old enough to vote lol. Melee's honestly either the second or third most balanced Smash to date (behind 64 and maybe PM; I haven't played the last release long enough to tell you one way or another).

EDIT: Sorry for thread hijacking :p
 
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soviet prince

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Thing is, Not everybody wants a Smash game to be like Melee for competitive play. There are plenty of players who like or even prefer Smash 4's slower, more methodical netual heavy game. While Smash 4 does have legitimate, universally agreed upon problems (mostly regarding defensive options being a bit too strong). But it's not a bad competitive game by any means, and your correct by Ultimate fixing those problems.



He's always known this. Sakurai's goal with Smash isn't so that everyone wins. It's so that even if the newcomer sucks compared to the more experienced player, they at least felt like they were playing a game and having fun. A loss in Smash 4 or Ultimate feels like a fair loss. You sucked yeah, but you at least had fun and felt like you knew what you were doing. A loss to a more experienced player in Melee on the other hand, makes you feel like never touching the game again. Sakurai's goal is to make Smash a game that is above all else, fun even when you loose. He doesn't like making games with overly large skill gaps with daunting barriers to entry. Notice how in Ultiamte is streamlining many advanced techniques making them far more intuitive and simple to execute. It gives the player options, while still involving as few inputs as possible.

yeah I hate MVC wear you just sit and watch the other guy do a endless combo, wooo so much fun :p
 

**Gilgamesh**

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That's why I said it was a misguided attempt. Brawl in many ways, was a product of the times. From its "real is brown" aesthetic, to it's focus on content over substance, to confusing making the game more approachable with dumbing it down. It's all the hallmarks of everything wrong with late-2000s game design. But that was 2008, this is 2018, developers including Sakurai himself are much more aware that you can streamline the gameplay so that newcomers have an easier time mastering without sacrificing the actual depth and challenge.



Brawl players moved on because Smash 4 was simply a better competitive game in just about every way. The goal wasn't to make something for Melee fans. It was to make something that people could play on a serious level if they wanted to. Ultimate is the actual attempt at trying to make something Melee and Smash 4 players can enjoy.



What that means is that even when playing casually or competitively, the game needs to be fun to play for everyone, regardless of whether they win or loose. The feeling should be "well I sucked, but I at least had fun". A loss should feel satisfying, and make you want to improve your skills. Game-play should be as faithful as possible across rule-sets, and learning higher level techniques should be as simple and intuitive as possible. In those regards, Melee failed as it had a large barrier to entry for competitive play, and high level Melee to a casual gamer looks and feels completely alien to standard competitive play, and a loss feels devistating as you didn't feel like you had a fair chance. Melee simply had too steep of a learning curve for its more advanced side, and that's what Sakurai wants to avoid doing.
Melee problem is that the game is 17 yrs into its meta; not of a technical barrier. Its hard to even catch up because people have been playing melee for years now. Your thinking of Fox who happens to be the best character when it comes to technical execution being excessive. Play Marth/Jiggs/Sheik instead etc.A top player will still body a casual any day even in Smash 4. Smash 4 has a lot of matchups where the game is just slow and that's due to a ton of characters having trouble killing or being very inconsistent at it. Luckily nearly all the top tiers happen to be the fastest characters in the game. Top Tier in Smash 4 are playing a different game then the rest of the cast; its very apparent. Melee problem for newcomers is that they're arriving in a meta that is 15+yrs old.
 

Izanagi97

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Melee problem is that the game is 17 yrs into its meta; not of a technical barrier. Its hard to even catch up because people have been playing melee for years now. Your thinking of Fox who happens to be the best character when it comes to technical execution being excessive. Play Marth/Jiggs/Sheik instead etc.A top player will still body a casual any day even in Smash 4. Smash 4 has a lot of matchups where the game is just slow and that's due to a ton of characters having trouble killing or being very inconsistent at it. Luckily nearly all the top tiers happen to be the fastest characters in the game. Top Tier in Smash 4 are playing a different game then the rest of the cast; its very apparent. Melee problem for newcomers is that they're arriving in a meta that is 15+yrs old.
That and a lot of technical stuff in Melee can do a number on your hands IIRC.
 

Fell God

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I think it's a combination of how slow Brawl/Sm4sh were in comparison to Melee, in addition to adding things like tripping and (more recently) removing meteor cancelling to intentionally add punishment for doing nothing wrong
What? Lol meteor canceling was a terrible "mechanic" that made meteor smashes far worse than they deserved to be. And also getting hit is doing something wrong, so that's a thing.
 

lizard1929

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Sakurai's comments may be lost in translation due to hype or the competitive nature of smash player's. There is nothing wrong with these two factors and Sakurai is allowed to change his mind and keep some details to himself. The community is very large so of course there will be many different points of view on Sakurai's comments.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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That only proves that he changed his mind on his anti-competitive sentiment. Not that he never had any.
Brawl was made the way it was because Sakurai felt it'd work better on the Wii Remote and fit the console's audience better. Not necessarily because he hated competitive play. It was a separate issue entirely.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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From what I remember, Sakurai doesn't have a problem with competitive play at all. The issue was more that people were not very inviting or fun to play with due to elitist attitudes. The issue is that this isn't a competitive problem, it's a gamer problem where people refuse to acknowledge the idea there's more than one valid way to play, shoving their opinion down somebody's throat and shaming others for not seeing it their way. This is a toxic mentality that actually has hurt Smash for a while now. Whether casual, competitive, or anywhere inbetween, players feel this need to force their way to play as the only valid one. Sakurai's purpose of making the games more accessible is to try and remove this particular barrier, allowing multiple valid ways to play.
 

Scicky

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Sakurai seems to be allergic to Melee and even outright stated he regret making Melee for what it is.
Even if he was 100% just making Smash for the competitive crowd he would still say that. He's a massive perfectionist and Melee was a glitch-y mess in a way that ended up working to it's benefit. People think Sakurai's been intentionally making Smash less competitive because he hates Melee but that ignores the fact that Melee was never supposed to be... like that, Brawl was an obvious slowing down of the game in an attempt to appeal to the Wii's massive casual audience, but he's done nothing if not listen to the competitive community since then.

Given the fact that Smash's competitive scene came about by accident, and now there's a hugely vocal group of players who want Sakurai to repeat game design choices he probably regards as a mistake, yeah, maybe he's soured on the game a little bit. He still does more for the competitive community than he's at all obligated to do.

Imagine if, every time a new Zelda game came out, the developers had to listen to hoard's of fan's claiming that the game was **** because there was no equivalent to Supersliding. Same thing.
 

Spak

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What? Lol meteor canceling was a terrible "mechanic" that made meteor smashes far worse than they deserved to be. And also getting hit is doing something wrong, so that's a thing.
It made meteor smashes balanced, seeing as they aren't particularly hard to hit and it gave an option of counterplay (if you're skilled enough and predicted it or reacted in time). And I phrased that second part poorly; I meant tripping was being punished for doing nothing wrong.
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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Even if he was 100% just making Smash for the competitive crowd he would still say that. He's a massive perfectionist and Melee was a glitch-y mess in a way that ended up working to it's benefit. People think Sakurai's been intentionally making Smash less competitive because he hates Melee but that ignores the fact that Melee was never supposed to be... like that, Brawl was an obvious slowing down of the game in an attempt to appeal to the Wii's massive casual audience, but he's done nothing if not listen to the competitive community since then.

Given the fact that Smash's competitive scene came about by accident, and now there's a hugely vocal group of players who want Sakurai to repeat game design choices he probably regards as a mistake, yeah, maybe he's soured on the game a little bit. He still does more for the competitive community than he's at all obligated to do.

Imagine if, every time a new Zelda game came out, the developers had to listen to hoard's of fan's claiming that the game was **** because there was no equivalent to Supersliding. Same thing.
I hope your not regarding Wavedashing as a bug because Sakurai stated that he and his team knew about it during development and ignored it as they thought it wouldn't be practical to use. Brawl had many glitches too and Smash 4 also have glitches. Sakurai even said he believes he made Melee to competitive. I'm just happy Ultimate is here and he didn't decide to do Brawl 2.0
 
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Fell God

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It made meteor smashes balanced, seeing as they aren't particularly hard to hit and it gave an option of counterplay (if you're skilled enough and predicted it or reacted in time). And I phrased that second part poorly; I meant tripping was being punished for doing nothing wrong.
In Melee, certain meteors couldn't be meteor canceled, such as Marth's (in the NTSC version) and Falco's (not 100% about that one), both could be comboed into. Nowadays, almost no one can combo into meteors, and all of them are slow. Plus, it's not like high level matches are plagued with them, in the ones I see, they aren't very common.
 
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