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Why are people considered bad for maining Little Mac?

TryHardOliver

Smash Journeyman
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I've played him along with Megaman and Falcon as my main throughout SSB4 since I loved the original Punch-Out so much. I was playing wireless with my friends the other day and the all called me a nub and stated that Mac was 'for baddies only.' The general feeling around this board seems to be the same too, with contempt to anyone who touches the character. Why is this? He's a solid ABC-tier close combat fighter, with great strengths and weaknesses to balance him. I think he's just gotten a bad rap over people that were trying to learn the class online and accidentally suicided with their Side B.

(Mods if this is in the wrong spot please just move it)
 

Zaycko

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
33
In my opinion hes way too fast, and his attacks are pretty OP, specially the A attack, you can easily get 20% from that, and all the smash attacks, have shield, so little mac is really an easy class for new players, sure he sucks on air but its pretty hard to get him on the air.
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
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People just don't like how some characters are easier to use than others. He's as valid as anyone else, and unlike others (hypocritically glares daggers at Sheik), he has notable weaknesses.

He's kinda like Ike in Brawl. He's hard for beginners to handle, and so he gets called an "easy win".
 
D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
Because he's extremely fast, and definitely has a lot of power. That combination is deadly, and doesn't take a lot of time for someone to master. With all the armor and the KO punch on top of this, it's hard to argue that his weaknesses balance all of this out.
 

King Donkey Kong

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
113
Probably because in general the character takes little skill.

Good smashes with Super Armor...(especially dsmash which is fast and murders anyone who dares to roll against him)

Great tilts, ftilt especially...nice range, and damage and its super fast and beats out everything.

He has everything except a good air game and recovery, which I thought at first would balance it out, but it doesn't. in the air he can just counter, and counter can also help his recovery when being edge guarded as it gets him back to the stage better than his recovery.

Oh and KO Punch can kill at 30% which is ridiculous especially in this game.

Remove the movement from counter and only allow his meter to fill when HE deals damage...not when he is damaged...and maybe he won't be nuts.
 
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Dsull

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The sheer fact that he has super armor on almost every single attack is obsurred and gets him a lot of heat. Every other character's super armor ability, if they even have one, has a slow strike or requires a charge (dk's punch for instance) while mac can just spam them one after another with his next to no lag between hits.
 

TheGingerRussian

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I find that he's far too quick and most of his moves have extremely high priority.

People who play characters with either mediocre projectiles or no projectiles at all will certainly struggle against him.

And his weaknesses really don't make up for any of this.

Ike in Brawl was different; he was strong, but also extremely slow. Most people could play it safe against him as long as they kept him away.

Mac is strong and very fast, most of his moves also have super armour, and the KO punch just seems like a really unnecessary addition in my opinion.
 

Ryuji

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It's because he literally packs a wallop. Being fast and quick is a deadly combination to have. His KO punch only makes things worse, as no other character has comparable move of that magnitude. The fact that his only weakness is being airborne and has a poor recovery is hardly enough to even out his strength. He needs more weaknesses. He's a strong and nimble character with an OHKO move and has an easy learning curve, so it's no surprise you see Little Mac users the most out of any character.
 

Ryik

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
Messages
37
doesn't take a lot of time for someone to master.
Master no.

Use, yes.

Let's say that every character has skill thresh-holds. If you get so good with a certain character, it equates to being <so much> more successful with that character. Little Mac is fairly easy to pick up and use with perceived efficiency at low-level play. (Which is to say, level 9 CPUs are low-level play) In other words, beginners can pick him up and present a much larger problem than what they would with other characters because his skill floors are low. When inexperienced players flaunt him, (and there were a very large amount of Little Mac players on For Glory for a time) especially when they kill themselves or have their glaring weakness exploited, the character gets a bad rap as cheap, "not requiring skill to use", or used by noobs.
 

Niala

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Because if you main Little Mac, you're probably bad and are just relying on his powerful gimmicks to win games (ko punch, counter, and superarmor.) It's pretty easy to distinguish between a smart Little Mac player and one who doesn't know what they're doing. Most of them don't have a clue.
 
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wolfos144

Smash Cadet
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Oct 6, 2014
Messages
37
I think it also has to do with the fact that so many noobs play mac too. Yeah, it's a stereotype, but it's true in most cases. I rarely encounter intelligent mac players.
 

King Donkey Kong

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Sep 22, 2014
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True, I do find it fun after playing someone who is only using Mac to use him myself, and proceed to wreck them with him because he's just that easy, but i find him cheap, OP and boring so I rarely play him.
 
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Dsull

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Because if you main Little Mac, you're probably bad and are just relying on his powerful gimmicks to win games (ko punch, counter, and superarmor.) It's pretty easy to distinguish between a smart Little Mac player and one who doesn't know what they're doing. Most of them don't have a clue.
And because of his gimicky play, even a bad mac that has no idea can kill you and get wins because you slipped up ONCE.
I have no issue losing to a mac that actually outsmarted me with fakeouts, timed shields, etc etc. The ones that piss me off are the ones that spam a move and it just happens to connect after the 30th attempt, leading into easily 50% or more damage from his A combo afterwords.
Hardly anyone actually tries to understand him and use him tactically. Because they dont have to. Even if you manage to hit him he hits you harder because of super armor on casual moves.

Thats his issue. Theres a term for this used in MOBA games - faceroll easy (roll face on keyboard, win games). Why bother trying to learn the inner workings of a character when his frontal and straightforward abilities are autowin if they connect, and are easy to connect with?
 

Kinslayer

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The sheer fact that he has super armor on almost every single attack is obsurred and gets him a lot of heat. Every other character's super armor ability, if they even have one, has a slow strike or requires a charge (dk's punch for instance) while mac can just spam them one after another with his next to no lag between hits.
Mac can't spam anything and if you let him chuck smash after smash that is your fault. Try grabbing him or power shielding then punishing.
 

Kinslayer

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Probably because in general the character takes little skill.

Good smashes with Super Armor...(especially dsmash which is fast and murders anyone who dares to roll against him)

Great tilts, ftilt especially...nice range, and damage and its super fast and beats out everything.

He has everything except a good air game and recovery, which I thought at first would balance it out, but it doesn't. in the air he can just counter, and counter can also help his recovery when being edge guarded as it gets him back to the stage better than his recovery.

Oh and KO Punch can kill at 30% which is ridiculous especially in this game.

Remove the movement from counter and only allow his meter to fill when HE deals damage...not when he is damaged...and maybe he won't be nuts.
Removing the movement for counter would be stupid because then when people get their gimps read Mac would lose every chance of coming back to the stage. If you have your Gimp attempt read he shouldn't have to just keep decending.

Remove armor on foward smash up variant and neutral variant. This way it forces him to think about his footsie game and not just win every long distance trade. The down version of forward smash should keep armor because it keeps you in close, doesn't have a large hitbox, and it doesn't really have ko potential, it's just for damage.
 
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MarioFireRed

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The skill bar to at least use Mac to a reasonable level is way lower than most, which makes him a notoriously easy pick-up and play character. Especially when you only need to focus on his ground game and ignore his aerials at that basic level.

That and his main gimmick, the Power Meter, fills up both when taking AND giving damage (which fills rather fast if his armor from his Smashes come into play).
 

xExcel

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 7, 2014
Messages
101
Because the crybabies who play this game can't stop him even though he has OBVIOUS GLARING WEAKNESSES.
 

XxBHunterxX

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Because nintendo balanced him differently than most other characters, he has a clearly defined strength with a clearly defined weakness, the weakness doesn't affect the strength but the strength does affects the weakness, since his moves are so fast and strong he's going to be on the ground more often than the opponent.
 

Arcturian

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Part of the disdain for Little Mac is that most people go against him in FG, where even a bad player can do well because of his speed and ground game. Little Mac on any stage with a platform doesn't have the same potential as he does on an Omega stage.
 

S_B

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I think I've lost to maybe one LM as Bowser, who has no reliable projectile and still gets knocked pretty far by Mac's attacks.

Seriously, if you have anything that can launch him horizontally, he's pretty much ****ed.
 

XxBHunterxX

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I think I've lost to maybe one LM as Bowser, who has no reliable projectile and still gets knocked pretty far by Mac's attacks.

Seriously, if you have anything that can launch him horizontally, he's pretty much ****ed.
He's been doing well at tournaments so far, so I don't think it's all that simple of a task
 

Phenomiracle

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He has everything except a good air game and recovery, which I thought at first would balance it out, but it doesn't. in the air he can just counter, and counter can also help his recovery when being edge guarded as it gets him back to the stage better than his recovery.
An aerial counter runs Little Mac the risk of losing altitude for potential recovery. I've played mindgames on many Little Macs by jumping out (presumably to gimp, as the opponent would think), my opponent counters while I do nothing or Up-special back onstage, and whoop, suddenly they're in non-recoverable airspace.

Great mindgames to pull at their 20-30%, I tell ya.
 
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JCDied4U

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I win more often with ROB and Falcon than Mac. Mac is about mid tier because one mistake usually ends in death for Mac, and his approaches are pretty predictable too.

People don't like him because so many people play him because he is kind of easy. Get rid of all the scrubs and he's far less annoying than Rosalina.
 

GroundZero996

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Aug 19, 2014
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I don't know why anyone would think he's OP or trash, but he can be incredibly annoying to play against and sometimes he just feels like an easy mode character. I mean you can't even juggle him or get too many reliable kill moves off because he can counter out of so many situations. He has that annoying gimp. He has a shield-bypassing OHKO attack that charges when he spams his stupidly lagless jab combo on your shields.
 

AdaptiveTrigger

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I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you beat all your friends with Little Mac? That's the reason why...
 

XxBHunterxX

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Putting it simple, because people don't know what makes a character OP and not. :p
What would make a character op? Keep in mind I'm not asking about a broken character so no meta knight please
 

Thor

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Little Mac does have a variety of weaknesses and strengths that make him suited for beginners:

Strengths:
-fast on ground
-tilts and specials have KO power, as do his very strong smashes
-smashes have armor
-has an OHKO move (not really, but close enough)
-all his grounded stuff has high damage output
-has reasonable approach options (somewhat predictable, but he certainly can get close easily), including a decent dash attack.
-probably other stuff I'm missing

Cons:
-bad recovery
-terrible air game
-due to the above, can't edgeguard offstage at all (at least I haven't seen any Little Mac ever pose a credible threat to any offstage character).
-poor follow-up ability to launching attacks
-some other stuff I'm sure I'm missing

Why does this make him very player-friendly to a new player? Well, among other things, I often see new players do a lot of things: randomly charge smash attacks, use tilts but not smashes or vice versa, jab a lot, run straight in and dash attack. Little Mac has the tools to make ALL of these things good - armor on smashes such that just timing the release means Mac almost always comes out ahead, his tilts are strong enough that smashes aren't terribly necessary (and vice versa), he has a very good jab combo (16% if you start and don't all extend the rapid jab), and his run is very fast (and somewhat low) which means others have less time to think and react to his approaches, plus his dash attack is none too shabby. He also has the KO punch, which is a single-use "Hit this and win or get a nice lead/reduce the lead" button - something that appeals to lots of new players, even if it's hard to land.

But his weaknesses make the picture even clearer. Oftentimes, I see new players do the following: not edgeguard, not be able to recover even when their character clearly can, not use aerials efficiently or at all, not follow up on launching attacks. The fact is, new players are not used to trying to follow up launching attacks or edgeguard, so they don't notice Little Mac's (relative) inability to do these thing. Since Little Mac is balanced around strengths almost all new players use and his weaknesses are things that many new players would not do on a character without them anyway, he seems very strong (which is also why many new players may think Jigglypuff is terrible - her air game and recovery (and rest) are fantastic, but comboing into rest is not easy for new players unused to comboing and many play so grounded that her great recovery and air game are simply unused).

This combination of factors leads newer players to label him OP and for others to label him "for n00bs" because he's in many ways built as a great character for new players, or people who would not use all the strengths of other characters. Thus someone who plays him may be labeled a new player, and thus bad at the game (though of course the label can be very inaccurate).

EDIT: Not all new players are the same, but I have seen far more who fit the picture I have described above very very well than those who are new and try to use aerials all the time or shield and grab a lot or whatever. This is why I paint new players in rather broad strokes - of course some break the mold, but far more seem to fit the mold very well.

And personally, I think Little Mac is a fine character to main, and I don't think someone who uses him is necessarily bad or whatever - I think he's a good deal of fun and an interesting challenge to use against characters with strong gimping and aerial games.
 
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Doruge

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Oct 10, 2014
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Part of the disdain for Little Mac is that most people go against him in FG, where even a bad player can do well because of his speed and ground game. Little Mac on any stage with a platform doesn't have the same potential as he does on an Omega stage.
Yoshi's Island is possibly a better stage for him than FD
 

Skylit

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He might be easy to play, but last night I faced one of the most hard working mac there is. He was doing perfect pivot tilts, foxtrotting dash dancing, I even might have caught him doing a dash cancel grab. He wouldn't allow me to camp on the edge so i can throw him off for an easy win. He might be OP, but he's not to the extent where it's nearly impossible to beat him. Reads and punishing him off stage is the key to defeating him. I can agree on one thing, it takes more patience in beating Mac.
 

Arcturian

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He might be easy to play, but last night I faced one of the most hard working mac there is. He was doing perfect pivot tilts, foxtrotting dash dancing, I even might have caught him doing a dash cancel grab. He wouldn't allow me to camp on the edge so i can throw him off for an easy win. He might be OP, but he's not to the extent where it's nearly impossible to beat him. Reads and punishing him off stage is the key to defeating him. I can agree on one thing, it takes more patience in beating Mac.
I love going up against a good Little Mac. It feels like a different game when fighting him.
 
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